Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[danielxcutter]

Weapon specialization (which I had forgotten about in the currently cited post for HPoH's concentration; the later correction seems to have been missed) means another +2 damage...so 7 ranks (barring other modifiers to the check).

Also Power Attack. And maybe the sword's extra damage to undead, I don't remember.

[Jasdoif]

Also Power Attack. And maybe the sword's extra damage to undead, I don't remember.

While that could apply in this specific case, both of those would be damage above the minimum Roy could be dealing what with we can see, and thus not be helpful for setting a minimum bound. (The "deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead" was absent.)

[Reboot]

so that means everyone in oots (barring thog) has INT 7+ while thog has INT <7

Orcs in general tend to use "Thog speech"

Possibly; that's why I thought Xykon's level could be narrowed down further for an upper cap.

Oh, there could be a huge gap in there - between #550 & #551, maybe? - but #532-533 are practically a continuous scene.

[Quartz]

Possibly; that's why I thought Xykon's level could be narrowed down further for an upper cap.

We've been over this a number of times. :D

If you assume that Superb Dispelling (DC 59) is the one in the ELH and that Xykon has no item that gives a bonus to his skills or Int, you can estimate his level.

First you need him to have both Epic Spellcasting and Epic Skill Focus which mandates level 23+.

At level 23 you have max 26 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana and get a +4 Synergy bonus for a sum of +30.
Skill Focus gives +3
Epic Skill Focus gives +10
So we have total modifiers of +43

Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59 and spellcasters typically Take 10 on Epic spells so we're looking at a required +49 to the roll so we need to find +6 from somewhere. That can only come from two places: levels or Int bonus - no other synergy bonuses are available. So Xykon is at least level 29 adjusted for any Int modifier with a minimum of level 23.

Again, assuming no items etc.

[D.One]

Orcs in general tend to use "Thog speech"

In fact, even though most orcs have been giving signs of low Intelligence, Thogspeech might simply represent low proficiency with the language, maybe because it's not their native one. 3.5 rules doesn't really cover that.

We've been over this a number of times. :D

If you assume that Superb Dispelling (DC 59) is the one in the ELH and that Xykon has no item that gives a bonus to his skills or Int, you can estimate his level.

First you need him to have both Epic Spellcasting and Epic Skill Focus which mandates level 23+.

At level 23 you have max 26 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana and get a +4 Synergy bonus for a sum of +30.
Skill Focus gives +3
Epic Skill Focus gives +10
So we have total modifiers of +43

Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59 and spellcasters typically Take 10 on Epic spells so we're looking at a required +49 to the roll so we need to find +6 from somewhere. That can only come from two places: levels or Int bonus - no other synergy bonuses are available. So Xykon is at least level 29 adjusted for any Int modifier with a minimum of level 23.

Again, assuming no items etc.

Remember that, in order to even have Epic Spellcasting, the character must be able to cast 9th level spells, and for that, such character must have at least 19 on his casting ability score, so a minimum of CHA 19 should be assumed (and it is probably way higher).

Edit: Ok, now that I think of it, this doesn't really affects that calculation, because the ability score we need to narrow down isn't CHA, it's INT

[danielxcutter]

While that could apply in this specific case, both of those would be damage above the minimum Roy could be dealing what with we can see, and thus not be helpful for setting a minimum bound. (The "deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead" was absent.)

Oh yeah, minimum bound.

And we don't really have enough info to get a maximum bound either, I presume?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

We've been over this a number of times. :D

If you assume that Superb Dispelling (DC 59) is the one in the ELH and that Xykon has no item that gives a bonus to his skills or Int, you can estimate his level.

First you need him to have both Epic Spellcasting and Epic Skill Focus which mandates level 23+.

At level 23 you have max 26 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana and get a +4 Synergy bonus for a sum of +30.
Skill Focus gives +3
Epic Skill Focus gives +10
So we have total modifiers of +43

Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59 and spellcasters typically Take 10 on Epic spells so we're looking at a required +49 to the roll so we need to find +6 from somewhere. That can only come from two places: levels or Int bonus - no other synergy bonuses are available. So Xykon is at least level 29 adjusted for any Int modifier with a minimum of level 23.

Again, assuming no items etc.

Why does he have to make up the entire DC out off of modifiers? If he has a +43 to a roll to reach a DC 49 then all he has to do is roll a 6 or higher, in my understanding. And EDIT: Isn't it 24+ for the learning of each of those feats? The first is at 21st and the rest are every 3rd level after, yes?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Oh yeah, minimum bound.

And we don't really have enough info to get a maximum bound either, I presume?

If Roy rolled maximum damage he would have done the 17 maximum on 2d6+5, plus 13 from BAB, plus 2 from weapon focus, for a total of 32 damage, reduces to 22. DC would be 38, meaning Durkon has to have +18 mods on a 20; something that isn't possible with a max +1 CHA mod and 15 levels of dwarfy cleric, unless he has some "+3 to concentration" item we have never seen before.

[danielxcutter]

If Roy rolled maximum damage he would have done the 17 maximum on 2d6+5, plus 13 from BAB, plus 2 from weapon focus, for a total of 32 damage, reduces to 22. DC would be 38, meaning Durkon has to have +18 mods on a 20; something that isn't possible with a max +1 CHA mod and 15 levels of dwarfy cleric, unless he has some "+3 to concentration" item we have never seen before.

...Skill Focus(Concentration)?

[Riftwolf]

so that means everyone in oots (barring thog) has INT 7+ while thog has INT <7

In one of the sticky posts, there's a rule against guessing mental stats through character actions. That probably includes equating thogspeak to low intelligence (another possible explanation is Thog/Gortek/island orcs are applying orcish grammar to the common language).

[Riftwolf]

If Roy rolled maximum damage he would have done the 17 maximum on 2d6+5, plus 13 from BAB, plus 2 from weapon focus, for a total of 32 damage, reduces to 22. DC would be 38, meaning Durkon has to have +18 mods on a 20; something that isn't possible with a max +1 CHA mod and 15 levels of dwarfy cleric, unless he has some "+3 to concentration" item we have never seen before.

BAB doesn't affect damage rolls? Which drops the concentration DC a far bit.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Why does he have to make up the entire DC out off of modifiers? If he has a +43 to a roll to reach a DC 49 then all he has to do is roll a 6 or higher, in my understanding. And EDIT: Isn't it 24+ for the learning of each of those feats? The first is at 21st and the rest are every 3rd level after, yes?

The DC is 59, not 49. And at Epic Levels, you get bonus feats every couple of levels (it varies by class) on top of the typical 1 every 3.

[Fyraltari]

In fact, even though most orcs have been giving signs of low Intelligence, Thogspeech might simply represent low proficiency with the language, maybe because it's not their native one.

Oona’s way of speech (peculiar word choice and strange syntax) sounds closer to what someone speaking a language they’re not actually fluent in is like and she doesn’t have any specific font or capitalization issues.

[Quartz]

Why does he have to make up the entire DC out off of modifiers?

The DC is 59. If you Take 10 you need +49 in modifiers.

And EDIT: Isn't it 24+ for the learning of each of those feats? The first is at 21st and the rest are every 3rd level after, yes?

Those are character level feats, which everyone gets at every third level i.e. 21st, 24th, 27th, etc levels. The Sorceror gets bonus class level feats at 23rd, 26th, 29th, etc levels.

[Jasdoif]

And we don't really have enough info to get a maximum bound either, I presume?

Usually a maximum bound with damage is unhelpful, D&D likes its large amounts dice and the wide range of numbers that results....But let me see.

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If we're doing a maximum bound, we need a case where the Concentration check was failed. Conveniently, we have one where HPoH loses his 7th-level destruction spell. Overlooking the unlikely possibility that Spellsplinter is more esoteric than "no defensive casting"....

Checking against the first post:

• 2d6+5 greatsword, so 17 base damage
• 29 Strength, for a +9 modifier; one-and-a-half-times for a two-handed weapon, so 13 extra damage
• 14 BAB from fighter levels, and 2:1 ratio on Power Attack for a two-handed weapon, so 28 extra damage
• Weapon specialization, so 2 extra damage

So that's 60 max damage. Being undead, HPoH isn't subject to critical hits...and barring any real reason to suspect starmetal bypasses the damage reduction, I'll say that reduces the max damage down to 50....

The Concentration DC is 10+spellLevel+damage, so in this case 10+7+50; or 67.

Since HPoH failed the check, the upper bound on his Concentration modifier is +65 (any higher and he'd have succeeded even if rolling a 1 against the maximum damage Roy could have been dealing).

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If HPoH was level 14 at the time, that makes 17 max ranks; and had the max +1 for Charisma modifier (which undead get on their Concentration checks)...leaves +47 worth of modifiers to account for elsewhere. If he was level 15 instead, that's still leave +46 unaccounted for.


So having the upper bound doesn't really clarify anything o_o

[D.One]

Oona’s way of speech (peculiar word choice and strange syntax) sounds closer to what someone speaking a language they’re not actually fluent in is like and she doesn’t have any specific font or capitalization issues.

Maybe Oonaspeech reflects Goblin accent, while Thogspeech reflects Orcish accent

[danielxcutter]

So... I guess the Exarrgh has the Divine Magician ACF? Horrid Wilting is of the Necromancy school, so it'd work.

[zimmerwald1915]

Malack was a serpentfolk vampire.

[MultitudeMan]

So... I guess the Exarrgh has the Divine Magician ACF? Horrid Wilting is of the Necromancy school, so it'd work.

Or he could just have adequate UMD, possibly with Spellcraft and Decipher Script to back it up?

[D.One]

So... I guess the Exarrgh has the Divine Magician ACF? Horrid Wilting is of the Necromancy school, so it'd work.

This fits what was shown until now.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Malack was a serpentfolk vampire.

I thought that he was lizardfolk?

[D.One]

I thought that he was lizardfolk?

Malack also seems to think he is a lizardfolk (panel 8)... Some pages ago (or maybe in the last iteration, I can't remember) we went through all this lizardfolk/serpentfolk/yuan-ti debate. I remember defending the idea that maybe "serpentfolk" is a subrace of lizardfolk.

[hamishspence]

I remember defending the idea that maybe "serpentfolk" is a subrace of lizardfolk.

Given that snakes are nested within the lizard family - that's a good way of looking at it.

[D.One]

Given that snakes are nested within the lizard family - that's a good way of looking at it.

Malack is a Mokole and an Abomination.

[Quartz]

Those are character level feats, which everyone gets at every third level i.e. 21st, 24th, 27th, etc levels. The Sorceror gets bonus class level feats at 23rd, 26th, 29th, etc levels.

BTW if Xykon is 29th level he can still fit in 4 counts of Improved Spell Capacity (at 24th, 26th, 27th, and 29th levels), allowing him to Quicken a 9th level spell. Improved Metamagic is another option from level 27 onwards as that requires 30 ranks in Spellcraft, so he could have two counts of Improved Spell Capacity and two counts of Improved Metamagic, thus only requiring an 11th level slot for a Quickened 9th level spell.

[danielxcutter]

BTW if Xykon is 29th level he can still fit in 4 counts of Improved Spell Capacity (at 24th, 26th, 27th, and 29th levels), allowing him to Quicken a 9th level spell. Improved Metamagic is another option from level 27 onwards as that requires 30 ranks in Spellcraft, so he could have two counts of Improved Spell Capacity and two counts of Improved Metamagic, thus only requiring an 11th level slot for a Quickened 9th level spell.

Or some other combination; plus there also non-Epic feats that reduce metamagic cost such as Practical Metamagic and Metamagic School Focus and I think Versatile Spellcaster might be able to help with that too.

[Quartz]

Or some other combination; plus there also non-Epic feats that reduce metamagic cost such as Practical Metamagic and Metamagic School Focus and I think Versatile Spellcaster might be able to help with that too.

Practical Metamagic requires the Dragonblood subtype.
Metamagic School Focus seems possible, but Xykon hasn't given any indication of specialism or focus.
Versatile Spellcaster might work.

[Quartz]

Xykon's Cha is listed as 28+. That figure was calculated by virtue of the number of 9th level spells Xykon cast in one combat in SoD. However, I've just learned of the Versatile Spellcaster feat. This allows a spellcaster to use two spell slots of level N to cast one spell of level N+1. So, if Xykon has this feat, he could have used two of his six 8th level spell slots to cast an additional 9th level spell. Thus Cha 28+ is not sustainable unless there's other evidence. I suggest amending the entry to 'Cha 19+ with Versatile Spellcaster or Cha 28+ without Versatile Spellcaster'. Cha 19 is required to cast 9th level spells.

[Jasdoif]

So... I guess the Exarrgh has the Divine Magician ACF? Horrid Wilting is of the Necromancy school, so it'd work.

The ACF says you get the spell added to your cleric spell list when you're able to cast cleric spells of that level. So it'd certainly work if the Exarch has 15 levels of cleric casting, but in that case I'd wonder why he's using a scroll of horrid wilting (and being concerned about it being his only scroll of it) if he can cast it normally.

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Xykon's Cha is listed as 28+. That figure was calculated by virtue of the number of 9th level spells Xykon cast in one combat in SoD. However, I've just learned of the Versatile Spellcaster feat. This allows a spellcaster to use two spell slots of level N to cast one spell of level N+1. So, if Xykon has this feat, he could have used two of his six 8th level spell slots to cast an additional 9th level spell. Thus Cha 28+ is not sustainable unless there's other evidence. I suggest amending the entry to 'Cha 19+ with Versatile Spellcaster or Cha 28+ without Versatile Spellcaster'. Cha 19 is required to cast 9th level spells.

I'd be somewhat more moved if there was anything else from Races of the Dragon used in Order of the Stick...or if this wasn't using a feat from a 3.5 book to explain a scene in a 3.0 prequel, but that's fairly minor in my opinion.

[Wizard_Lizard]

what is Xykons subclass anyway?