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Thread: Tactical Question - Haley
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2013-11-19, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Almost went there, but didn't want to step on the landmine of the stereotype that bi people need to be in open/swinging/poly/whatever relationships or they're not really bi because they picked one person who (probably) has one gender.
Besides, I think Haley's more suited to monogamy. Given her history of trust issues, I think the added reassurance would help her emotional well-being a lot. And Elan, of course, would love a nice, cliched, traditional happily ever after.
True. I dunno. Tsukiko's combination of unsavoriness and brattiness makes my skin crawl a little at the idea of anyone being attracted to her.
Aaaaaaand suddenly we've gotten all the way to gainers. :buries face in hands:
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2013-11-19, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
At a certain point, when you're pushing 40 and have spent one-quarter of your life drawing a stick figure comic about D&D, you start to ask yourself whether what you are doing is really important and what impact, if any, your work will have on the world beyond momentary distractions.
Or maybe it's just that at a certain level of success, you stop worrying about whether a public stance you take on something that actually matters to you might alienate readers because there are things that are more important than sales numbers.
Probably a mixture of the two.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-11-19, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- Kiev, Ukraine
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Thank you for the reply. :) I didn't, however, mean taking a public stance outside of the comic. I meant a more direct presentation within the comic itself. Do you think that sort of style is more effective for getting your point across? Is it just a simpler, cleaner style? Or am I seeing something that isn't there?
There are thousands of good reasons magic doesn't rule the world. They're called mages. - Slightly misquoted Pratchett
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2013-11-19, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-11-19, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
You clearly forgot to show the half-dragon priest in white robes healing a leper while his adoring congregation looked on in horror as he got killed...although I doubt even that would have been enough, knowing the way discussions round here usually turn out.
Seriously, do you think it would have made a difference if you'd shown more human-like half-dragons in that image? Or would that have been too close to a spoiler for the later scene in the pyramid?
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2013-11-19, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
I think whether or not that would make a difference or be too blatant a hint for the scene in the pyramid is less important than the impact it would have on the message. I think part of the point is that V's actions aren't justified just because the creatures he happens to be mass-murdering don't look like we do. To show humans with draconic heritage would ruin the message, since giving us a familiar face with which to identify basically just enforces the sort of self/other binary the strip seems designed to shatter. The reader is supposed to see that the mass murder of essentially innocent, sentient beings is wrong, regardless of how different from oneself they may be. At least, that's the message I took from the scene. Rich can obviously speak for himself about his intentions, but I think including more humanoid victims would lessen the scene's power.
(Edited for clarity of phrasing.)Last edited by Zrak; 2013-11-19 at 03:08 AM.
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2013-11-19, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- California
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
If it wasn't for those kinds of characters in Shakespeare's works I would have a hard time guessing who I'm supposed to be rooting for. Merchant of Venice, for example. Normally I would assume that the antisemite who spits on Jews and the disloyal daughter who steals from her father (and pawns the cherished keepsakes from her dead mother so that she can buy exotic pets) were bad guys.
Fortunately Shakespeare added a bunch of characters who kept on reminding us that these guys are totally awesome.
Rich, I think there's a lesson to be learned from Shakespeare. Have a bunch of characters who follow the protagonists around and remind us that they're the good guys no matter how awful they behave.
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2013-11-19, 04:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
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- Connecticut
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
I gotta say, one thing I think needs to be taken into account too is that this is the internet, and people on the internet can be butthats. I mean, I am, IRL, super-friendly. Even here, on this forum, I try to be nice, same with the Reaper forums and any other community forums. You find me in some of the other areas of the 'net? Hell, if your first encounter with me was on 4chan or Minecraft, you'd think my real name was Sir Douchington McKittenshiv.
See, the difference is this: I know how to modulate my butthattery. I understand that there are places I can make sexist/homophobic/slut-shaming/racist jokes, and I won't hurt anyone's feelings, and I won't have my feelings hurt when they make those jokes back because that's just where I am and what the culture's like. The problem comes when people forget that that's not the norm, when they come into nice areas like this and butt it up, and then you do risk hurting people - that's not right.
But to say that jokes like that have no place seems harsh to me, too. Some of the communities I'm in online are so vitriolic, so poisonous, that yeah, if you don't expect it, you'll get hurt. But that doesn't mean we're wrong for making those sorts of jokes, amongst ourselves, with no intent to hurt anyone - it means that you should stay out of those areas! But by the same token, jokes like that shouldn't be brought into safe environments like this one - we have no right to pee in this pool, just like you shouldn't dive into our (slightly yellower) one and then whine about the faint smell of ammonia.
At the end of the day, people who make offensive jokes (like this one) are like that kid in science class who starts talking over the teacher - they just don't understand the social restrictions normal people deal with enough to self-moderate their behavior. They make a lot of noise, sometimes, but in the end, sometimes we raise our voices even louder trying to shut them up - and in the end, it's pointless: people who can understand already do, and the people who don't won't be made to understand their inappropriateness by us. In the end, we're talking to two walls - the people who agree with us, and the people who's opinions we won't change, and we should keep that in mind; that's not to say we can't have constructive talks, but we shouldn't obsess over changing minds and attitudes, either. Fortunately, most of the people I know online who make offensive comments like this are well-adjusted people IRL who let themselves slip online; for some, it's cathartic, for others, a chance to ignore social norms... But I doubt that many of the people we get worked up over online are actually terrible homophobes/racists/sexists IRL.
And fortunately, at the end of the day, the mods, like the teachers with the loud kid in science, will sweep in and tell us to sit down and shut up. That's the great thing about a good forum like this! :DLast edited by Aard_Rinn; 2013-11-19 at 04:23 AM.
Hole-in-the-trachea syndrome - a life-threatening condition affecting 10 out of 10 people who **** WITH ME!I'm what doctors call a carrier - it doesn't affect me, but people I come into contact with have an elevated risk of contracting a terminal case of hole-in-the-trachea syndrome!Oh, sure - laugh. Most people do - the full scope and tragedy doesn't really hit until it's someone you love who's got a terminal case of hole-in-the-trachea.
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2013-11-19, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
I'm deliberately choosing not to engage your post as I'm not feeling up to a wall of text battle about the right to make offensive jokes that reinforce negative and hurtful social trends, but this is for every racist/sexist/inappropriate/griefing minecraft troll I've had to engage and almost inevitably ban. *throws snowball*
Have a nice day.
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2013-11-19, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
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- Connecticut
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Oh, I don't do it on other people's servers - that would be rude, and I, at least, try not to hurt other people's feelings. I have my own server. Things... get pretty terrible, but we have fun!
Hole-in-the-trachea syndrome - a life-threatening condition affecting 10 out of 10 people who **** WITH ME!I'm what doctors call a carrier - it doesn't affect me, but people I come into contact with have an elevated risk of contracting a terminal case of hole-in-the-trachea syndrome!Oh, sure - laugh. Most people do - the full scope and tragedy doesn't really hit until it's someone you love who's got a terminal case of hole-in-the-trachea.
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2013-11-19, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- Kiev, Ukraine
- Gender
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2013-11-19, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
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2013-11-19, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
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- Connecticut
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Oh, no, I don't mind~ I've dealt with enough POS players on other servers to understand where you're coming from...
Besides, I can take a little knockback. Snowballs don't phase me!Hole-in-the-trachea syndrome - a life-threatening condition affecting 10 out of 10 people who **** WITH ME!I'm what doctors call a carrier - it doesn't affect me, but people I come into contact with have an elevated risk of contracting a terminal case of hole-in-the-trachea syndrome!Oh, sure - laugh. Most people do - the full scope and tragedy doesn't really hit until it's someone you love who's got a terminal case of hole-in-the-trachea.
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2013-11-19, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
That would have been aggressively counterproductive, since the latest iteration of "they were all black dragons, therefore Vaarsuvius didn't do anything wrong" is "Vaarsuvius made a tragic mistake by failing to take into account that the spell would hit part-dragons; s/he wouldn't have done anything wrong had s/he made sure all the targets were black dragons."
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-11-19, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
I find that fairly unlikely, actually, because the character that did it was pretty clearly painted as evil at the time he did it, and was even said in-comic to have taken a serious turn towards evil.
2. I seem to recall it being quite a popular topic, about whether Familicide was evil or not. In either case, I'm primarily using it as an example to help illustrate my point better, I'm not trying to pin any blame on the Giant for it.
Hrm. I guess it was. Still, you had a lot of people arguing that it was an evil act in those threads.
3. To some extent, I'm inclined to agree. Redcloak is a lot more nuanced than Xykon, though, and not everything he does or believes in is necessarily bad. Are people supposed to think that because Redcloak believes that everyone should get a fair chance (if we assume he's not hypocritic, which he might very well be), giving people a fair chance is a bad thing? Probably not. If someone is racist in real life, I suppose they might agree with some of Redcloak's thoughts... but given how he's written, I'm not too worried. Redcloak's racism could, potentially, be problematic, though I don't think it is at the moment, and I don't think it's going to be. What's interesting is that if would step over the line with his racism, then it's likely that he will do so in a manner that's obviously evil and obviously bigoted, thus falling under the "Antagonist doing obviously bad things"-clause.“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds;
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2013-11-19, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
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2013-11-19, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-11-19, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Does this mean "Sneak Attack Bitch" is dead?
At a certain point, when you're pushing 40 and have spent one-quarter of your life drawing a stick figure comic about D&D, you start to ask yourself whether what you are doing is really important and what impact, if any, your work will have on the world beyond momentary distractions.
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2013-11-19, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
As someone who has recently pushed 40 and had it start to push back, I understand this sentiment. Even though we're in very different careers with very different public visibility and, by some measures, very different levels of success. :) These are pretty universal questions, and common conclusions to come to, after a certain point.
I think some of it also stems naturally from just individual growth and change as a person. The writer who wrote Durkon's impassioned pleas to his murderer is not the same person who wrote the Forced Tentacles of Intrusion jokes. The artist who was drawing flame effects for V's spells a few comics ago is not the same artist who was drawing goblins in the first few comics. And so on.
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2013-11-19, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Arkham, Massachussets
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
"...As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."
Thanks to Cuthalion for awesome avatar!
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2013-11-19, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2013-11-19, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Albany, NY
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
Truly wonderful avatar made by Cuthalion
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2013-11-19, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
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2013-11-19, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds;
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2013-11-19, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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- Sweden
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
@The Giant: While you're still here, I have a question about strip #631. The conversation between V and Qarr goes like this:
Panel 2
Vaarsuvius: Begone from here, imp! You are wasting precious time if you cannot give me what I require.
Vaarsuvius: (internal) Perhaps my books...
Qarr: Oh, right, because I can just wave my fairy wand and POOF, you can teleport. Sure, I'll get right on that, Mr. Elf, sir.
Panel 3
Vaarsuvius: Is that not what tempters of your ilk do? Provide those willing to bargain with any extranormal abilities they may require?
Qarr: What...like a literal sell-your-soul sort of thing?
This may be because I'm not a native speaker, but the jump from panel 2 to 3 seems rather... Odd. Where did V bring up the soul selling? V told the imp to scatter, then Qarr replied, sarcastically, that he wasn't able to help the elf teleport, and suddenly, V talks about soul selling. The progression always struck me as odd.
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2013-11-19, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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- The Chi
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-11-19, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Think of it this way.
Vaarsuvius: If you can't help, then go away!
Qaar: What, you were expecting me to be able to grant you wishes?
Vaarsuvius: YES! You're a fiend! That's what fiends do! Wishes are what you use to tempt people!
Qaar: Tempt people to sell their souls, you mean?
Vaarsuvius: Yes, that's what I mean! You're a fiend and I need power enough to do anything for it, the situation is pretty self-explanatory!Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-11-19, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- New York
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Yeah, I think that's one of the very few, very rare times when that term might be acceptable, since, you know, succubus. Slut isn't a pejorative so much as it is a job description.
Hey, Rich, what made you decide to make Sabine a succubus anyway? That might have opened up the can of worms to start with.My webcomic!
Currently DMing:
Tales of Aequar: Runite's Rise IC
OOC Map
Playing Natalia Bolts,Jadeite Nocrius, and Soren Lowell
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2013-11-19, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Tactical Question - Haley
It's a meaningless insult to throw at anyone; it amounts to, "I, the speaker, am prudish and for some reason I think you should care."
But it is, as they say, the thought that counts.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-11-19, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- Germany
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Re: Tactical Question - Haley
Interestingly, it seems that it's easier to accept magic and dragons as believable than some changes in human nature. Perhaps it's generally easier to accept big differences to the real world, or perhaps it's because we intrinsically know humans better than we know the laws of physics.
That doesn't mean one can't or shouldn't try to portray a world that's different regarding humans. It just means that people are more likely to find such a world 'unrealistic' than a world with dragons.
Don't underestimate the impact of momentary distractions. Even if your comic was just funny (of course, it's much more than that), making people laugh is worth a lot, too.Ares - Music and sounds system for roleplaying
Avatar by Rich Burlew.