Wizard v Gish

[kulosle]

So i was just wondering why a wizard would go down a gish path. Does it gain any power from doing so? Or to put it more bluntly, how does a 20th level gish using wizard with 9th level spells 16 BAB, and heavy armor proficiency fair against a 20th level wizard? The base wizards would essentially only have more spells per day/known right?

[Psyren]

People gish primarily because they want to. From a pure power standpoint, full casting is almost always better, especially since most gish builds require you to dip Fighter or something similar that slows down your spell progression.

[Norin]

"Gish to reduce squish!"

It's all about the character feel really, in my opinion.
A gish is a different kind of caster and being a gish opens up a new path of tactics and play styles.

It's not about how uberpowerful you are. Because pure casters will, as Psyren said, almost always be more powerful.

[rockdeworld]

Well, when I build a gish vs wizard, the gish almost always has more consistent high damage. Example Gish (dealing 58-126 DPR) and Example Wizard (currently hits 1-2x for 18 Dex damage, replace ST with Orb of Force and he can hit 1-2x for 56 damage).*

That said, those examples pretty much encapsulate my experience: the gish has better damage (and a decent SoL for backup), but is somewhat less versatile and slightly more MAD. The wizard has worse damage, but does other things better (like divinations, illusions, and usually: crafting).

*Note: these were both created for a PvP arena.

Edit: I do want to add that when I was younger, I saw the fighter outclassed by the guy who could fight and do magic (or DBZ type fighters who could basically be called gishes), and the gish was NOT outclassed by the wizard, because they could do the same magic, and the wizard was highly susceptible to being stabbed, unlike the fighter. So the gish was on top.

[herrhauptmann]

People gish primarily because they want to. From a pure power standpoint, full casting is almost always better, especially since most gish builds require you to dip Fighter or something similar that slows down your spell progression.

What Psyren said.

Sometimes someone wants to pull of a particular trick. Say be a wizard that can pull off a mini-ubercharger.
Sometimes their character concept is something like the suel arcanamach: Created to slay enemy wizards. They can do what a regular warrior can't.

[Tvtyrant]

Sometimes you just want to be a sword wielding manly man who then kills things with deadly rainbows.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I build a lot of gishes. Everyone has their reasons, but for me it is because I just enjoy smashing a problem with a weapon. Basic hero, toe to toe with the monster. I also like to be versatile, though. Spells bring versatility.

Also, not everyone has the same 'ideal' picture of a gish. To me, a gish can do proper melee (or ranged) combat (i.e. has proficiencies, hp, AC and sufficient b.a.b.) even without magic. Therefore, I sometimes build gishes that get a CL of 14 or 16, tops, if that gives me a cool warrior concept with some (or a lot) added magical flavour and diversity. Other people feel that a gish has to reach 9th level spells.

Short answer: Gishes are cooler than pure casters, because they are warriors. They are also cooler than pure melee classes, because they have magic.

[Petrocorus]

People go gish for several reasons.
One of them is that, in fiction, the hero is always some kind of fighter, and the wizard is a supporting character, so many players who want to play a wizard want a wizard who can fight. And do thing beside casting.

But the first reason, is that, for the same will to play The Hero, many players want to play a fighting character. But of course, they want a fighter who can actually fight efficiently against big monsters. And who can do thing outside of fighting. And the mechanics of the game are so unbalanced that the best way to do this is to play a gish. Players who play gish don't compare their power to the straight caster, but to the straight warrior. The sorcadin build for example, is used to play a powerful paladin.

Another reason is that the gish represents this ideal of the complete man who is versed in a bit of everything and has no real weakness. Which is contrary to the normal philosophy of the game, at least with most classes.

[kulosle]

Don't get me wrong, i've planned my fair share of gish characters. I was just wondering how it fairs against a pure mage. I've never had both in one party before, nor have i seen them go toe to toe. So what is the power difference between a gish and straight wizard. And whats the difference between a gish and wizard with straight mage prestige classes like incantrix?

[rockdeworld]

So what is the power difference between a gish and straight wizard. And whats the difference between a gish and wizard with straight mage prestige classes like incantrix?

If you go by JaronK's tier system, there's no difference for wizard and a difference of 2 tiers for wiz/incantatrix. If you go by dnd-wiki's levels of balance, there's no difference. If you're asking who would win in a toe-to-toe battle between the 2 and what percentage of the time they would win, you'd probably have to look at individual builds. The two I posted above would probably result in the wizard winning maybe 80-20, but I built him after the gish with the purpose of taking the gish apart.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Don't get me wrong, i've planned my fair share of gish characters. I was just wondering how it fairs against a pure mage. I've never had both in one party before, nor have i seen them go toe to toe. So what is the power difference between a gish and straight wizard. And whats the difference between a gish and wizard with straight mage prestige classes like incantrix?

Straight mage (especially with incantatrix) is about the strongest thing in the game. Gish takes some of that strength away and grants some (inferior) combat ability. Toe to toe, in theory, the wizard is better. Depending on the build of the gish, it can become a really close tie.

[Psyren]

Why are they going "toe to toe?" D&D is a team game.

Generally, gishes want to be buffing up and wading into combat to deal damage in melee; pure casters want to be hanging back and using either control, blasts or summons to end battles faster. Both have their uses.

The main difference between the two is that gishing tends to take more resources. You have to dip, and you need decent physical scores (if you're not shapeshifting them all away that is). The gish tends to need more protective spells and gear than the pure caster because he is in harm's way more. The gish also wants a mix of fighting and casting feats while the pure caster doesn't want any of the former.

The upside to being a gish is that you tend to be a little sturdier if you're on your own, or if your group is light on frontliners. A wizard's top priority is usually to stay out of reach of the enemy's bruisers, while a gish is more likely to welcome the prospect.

[herrhauptmann]

Why are they going "toe to toe?" D&D is a team game.

Generally, gishes want to be buffing up and wading into combat to deal damage in melee; pure casters want to be hanging back and using either control, blasts or summons to end battles faster. Both have their uses.

The main difference between the two is that gishing tends to take more resources. You have to dip, and you need decent physical scores (if you're not shapeshifting them all away that is). The gish tends to need more protective spells and gear than the pure caster because he is in harm's way more. The gish also wants a mix of fighting and casting feats while the pure caster doesn't want any of the former.

The upside to being a gish is that you tend to be a little sturdier if you're on your own, or if your group is light on frontliners. A wizard's top priority is usually to stay out of reach of the enemy's bruisers, while a gish is more likely to welcome the prospect.

You keep saying all the things I want to say.
And saying them better.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, gishing usually costs quite a bit of resources. Some of the classes provide decent benefits for casting, like Swiftblade's extra action and initiative bonus (Rocket tag) or Abjurant's Champion's free swft action spells (good for a well optimized dispeller).

[ArqArturo]

When I first wanted to build a gish, I wanted to be the guy that threw fireballs, lightning bolts, wore spiked fullplate and reigned death and destruction whilst riding a great wyrm gold dragon, and threatening my enemies at the tip of a bastard sword and magic, combined in one glorious way.

So I rolled a cleric.

[DMVerdandi]

When I first wanted to build a gish, I wanted to be the guy that threw fireballs, lightning bolts, wore spiked fullplate and reigned death and destruction whilst riding a great wyrm gold dragon, and threatening my enemies at the tip of a bastard sword and magic, combined in one glorious way.

So I rolled a cleric.

I Wander what would happen if you replaced cleric spell list with wiz/sorc spells as divine spells, and removed domains and turning for it...

[Lord Haart]

When I first wanted to build a gish, I wanted to be the guy that threw fireballs, lightning bolts, wore spiked fullplate and reigned death and destruction whilst riding a great wyrm gold dragon, and threatening my enemies at the tip of a bastard sword and magic, combined in one glorious way.

So I rolled a cleric.

Can i quote this in my signature?

[Xervous]

I Wander what would happen if you replaced cleric spell list with wiz/sorc spells as divine spells, and removed domains and turning for it...

you PRC into something that gets turning, then persist all the delicious sorc/wiz spells

[ArqArturo]

Can i quote this in my signature?

Sure .

you PRC into something that gets turning, then persist all the delicious sorc/wiz spells

If that's the case, use illumians and don't bother using the divine metamagic feat. They can persist with turn undead with the right sigil combination twice a day.