Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[Max_Killjoy]

Again, you are thinking that just because hands are dexterous, that other animal can't achieve a similar effect without it. By that logic, because humans don't have 8 tentacles, they can't create complex machinery, because they only have two.

"By that logic"... right.

Fire? Underwater?

Useful stone is much less common underwater from what I've read.

And without fire... metalworking?

Writing materials that last?


The idea of an "wet civilization" is simply bunkus. The first thing your hypothetical optopeople need to do... is get onto dry land.

[-D-]

Uh, why does the scene shift like that, exactly? I guess it gives them a somewhat more stable evolutionary niche, since they aren't actively killing themselves as much, but it doesn't allow them to, for example, use fire.

Fire isn't necessary for aquatic organisms. Sure, it helps with a diet, but it's not what makes separates humans from animals.

What truly gives human advantage is writing and reading, preventing each individual to discover the same knowledge over and over again. If octopi could read and write, they could discover ways to make their meals pack more punch, it would give them a way to communicate over time and space, and share their most useful tools, instead of rediscovering them each time.

Fire? Underwater?

Useful stone is much less common underwater from what I've read.

And without fire... metalworking?

Writing materials that last?


The idea of an "wet civilization" is simply bunkus. The first thing your hypothetical optopeople need to do... is get onto dry land.

Fire isn't needed in the water. Just because fire is useful on earth, doesn't mean a methane breathing organism would, could or needed to discover fire. Same with Water.

As long as there is a not-hard and a hard rock, you can have writing tools. Maybe they could use chalk. Or maybe they could just chisel it, inventing some kind of cuneiform.

Metals are discovered 40,000 years after modern humans emerged, so you don't REALLY need that. But in aquatic water metallurgy would be less fire and more electric-based. Magnesium is abundant and you could sequester it with electrodes.

Just because you didn't thought of it, doesn't mean its impossible. I won't take full credit though, I found this great worldbuilding exchange site.

[Keltest]

Fire isn't necessary for aquatic organisms. Sure, it helps with a diet, but it's not what makes separates humans from animals.

What truly gives human advantage is writing and reading, preventing each individual to discover the same knowledge over and over again. If octopi could read and write, they could discover ways to make their meals pack more punch, it would give them a way to communicate over time and space, and share their most useful tools, instead of rediscovering them each time.


Fire isn't needed in the water. Just because fire is useful on earth, doesn't mean a methane breathing organism would, could or needed to discover fire. Same with Water.

As long as there is a not-hard and a hard rock, you can have writing tools. Maybe they could use chalk. Or maybe they could just chisel it, inventing some kind of cuneiform.

Metals are discovered 40,000 years after modern humans emerged, so you don't REALLY need that. But in aquatic water metallurgy would be less fire and more electric-based. Magnesium is abundant and you could sequester it with electrodes.

Just because you didn't thought of it, doesn't mean its impossible. I won't take full credit though, I found this great worldbuilding exchange site.

Yeah, ok, that allows them to have a crude civilization, but I don't think you understand just how completely essential combustion is to modern society. Cars, planes, electricity, street lights, rocketry...

To say nothing of the fact that a spacefaring civilization by definition needs to be able to leave the water.

[Traab]

Yeah, ok, that allows them to have a crude civilization, but I don't think you understand just how completely essential combustion is to modern society. Cars, planes, electricity, street lights, rocketry...

To say nothing of the fact that a spacefaring civilization by definition needs to be able to leave the water.

Or, much like we bring oxygen, take it with them. I know, I know, a whole host of issues trying to bring a rocket full of seawater instantly popped into your head, im just pointing out that having to bring your own atmosphere/habitable living space with you isnt exactly a new issue that applies solely to aquatic life forms. Its really kind of hard to state with certainty what the limits for an aquatic sentience would be as we dont have ten thousand years of scientific progress as aquatic beings to work with. We developed everything based on being land dwellers with opposable thumbs so its no wonder the very idea of doing everything from the water with tentacles would produce a knee jerk "impossible!" response.

[Kantaki]

Yeah, ok, that allows them to have a crude civilization, but I don't think you understand just how completely essential combustion is to modern society. Cars, planes, electricity, street lights, rocketry...

To say nothing of the fact that a spacefaring civilization by definition needs to be able to leave the water.

I mean they could use Ewok-esque technology.
Worked pretty well for the Teddybears.
Using underwater volcanoes to launch their hollow rock spaceships (filled with water of course so the cosmosquid can breath).
Hey. Maybe that's what Maxima's geode was- a octopus ship.

[-D-]

Hey. Maybe that's what Maxima's geode was- a octopus ship.

That's backwards. Sydney seven orbs are a ship for sentient octopi. They can grab all of them simultaneously, while having one tentacle free for noms.

[Keltest]

Or, much like we bring oxygen, take it with them. I know, I know, a whole host of issues trying to bring a rocket full of seawater instantly popped into your head, im just pointing out that having to bring your own atmosphere/habitable living space with you isnt exactly a new issue that applies solely to aquatic life forms. Its really kind of hard to state with certainty what the limits for an aquatic sentience would be as we dont have ten thousand years of scientific progress as aquatic beings to work with. We developed everything based on being land dwellers with opposable thumbs so its no wonder the very idea of doing everything from the water with tentacles would produce a knee jerk "impossible!" response.

That's not what I meant. I mean you can say that they don't need fire underwater, but as soon as you hit "spacefaring" you are by definition no longer operating exclusively in the water. Sure you can stuff them in a space suit or fill the ship with water or whatever, but you still have to get to that point where you have a space ship that needs filling, which means you need some form of propulsion and sufficiently durable materials, which both require combustion.

Being intelligent enough to grasp primitive tool use does not mean you would automatically be able to create a space faring society if you just upped the intelligence.

[Max_Killjoy]

Fire isn't necessary for aquatic organisms. Sure, it helps with a diet, but it's not what makes separates humans from animals.

What truly gives human advantage is writing and reading, preventing each individual to discover the same knowledge over and over again. If octopi could read and write, they could discover ways to make their meals pack more punch, it would give them a way to communicate over time and space, and share their most useful tools, instead of rediscovering them each time.


Fire isn't needed in the water. Just because fire is useful on earth, doesn't mean a methane breathing organism would, could or needed to discover fire. Same with Water.

As long as there is a not-hard and a hard rock, you can have writing tools. Maybe they could use chalk. Or maybe they could just chisel it, inventing some kind of cuneiform.

Metals are discovered 40,000 years after modern humans emerged, so you don't REALLY need that. But in aquatic water metallurgy would be less fire and more electric-based. Magnesium is abundant and you could sequester it with electrodes.

Just because you didn't thought of it, doesn't mean its impossible. I won't take full credit though, I found this great worldbuilding exchange site.

You need metal for anything post-neolithic, and advanced metallurgy for anything even vaguely remotely modern.

How exactly are you generating electricity without fire?
How are you generating electricity without wires and magnets?
How are you doing anything with electricity if you haven't already figured out how to refine metal and make wires without electricity in the first place?
How are you controlling electricity in salt water?
How are you insulating your wires without access to a waterproof, flexible, workable material?

Chalk washes off readily, and etching in stones wears much faster underwater -- writing scratched in stone that would be somewhat legible 1000 years later on dry land can be gone orders of magnitude faster underwater.

[Keltest]

Hmm. We could go with "Probably not an octopus" as the next thread title. We are in need of one here.

[-D-]

You need metal for anything post-neolithic

Not sure what you mean by that. Humans need metal for anything post Neolithic. Octopi would have their own tech different than ours.

How exactly are you generating electricity without fire?
How are you generating electricity without wires and magnets?

If only there was some way to generate electricity in a biological organism.. Maybe if there was some kind of eel that does that. But hogwash, such thing will never exist on Earth. Also rubbing different materials would produce electrical charge, even if it would dissipate.

How are you controlling electricity in salt water?
How are you insulating your wires without access to a waterproof, flexible, workable material?

In salt water hardly, which would make insulators very precious. I'm sure some animal somewhere has skin or mucus that's going to be a good enough insulator. Store enough charge and have a easily removed insulators and voila, you have a shock rock and evolutionary advantage. Kinda like poison frogs and spear tips.

writing scratched in stone that would be somewhat legible 1000 years later on dry land can be gone orders of magnitude faster underwater.

Guess they will have to copy it I guess.

And all that said, no one says Octopi can't colonize land. For them it would be like a trip to the Moon, but to a world alien and rich in resources.

[Keltest]

Not sure what you mean by that. Humans need metal for anything post Neolithic. Octopi would have their own tech different than ours.


If only there was some way to generate electricity in a biological organism.. Maybe if there was some kind of eel that does that. But hogwash, such thing will never exist on Earth. Also rubbing different materials would produce electrical charge, even if it would dissipate.



In salt water hardly, which would make insulators very precious. I'm sure some animal somewhere has skin or mucus that's going to be a good enough insulator. Store enough charge and have a easily removed insulators and voila, you have a shock rock and evolutionary advantage. Kinda like poison frogs and spear tips.


Guess they will have to copy it I guess.

And all that said, no one says Octopi can't colonize land. For them it would be like a trip to the Moon, but to a world alien and rich in resources.

All this seems to be an assertion that they would have figured it out, somehow. Yeah, a different civilization would probably look different, but theyre still operating under the same physics with the same limitations, so how do you propose they overcome these limitations?

[Max_Killjoy]

Not sure what you mean by that. Humans need metal for anything post Neolithic. Octopi would have their own tech different than ours.


If only there was some way to generate electricity in a biological organism.. Maybe if there was some kind of eel that does that. But hogwash, such thing will never exist on Earth. Also rubbing different materials would produce electrical charge, even if it would dissipate.



In salt water hardly, which would make insulators very precious. I'm sure some animal somewhere has skin or mucus that's going to be a good enough insulator. Store enough charge and have a easily removed insulators and voila, you have a shock rock and evolutionary advantage. Kinda like poison frogs and spear tips.


Guess they will have to copy it I guess.

And all that said, no one says Octopi can't colonize land. For them it would be like a trip to the Moon, but to a world alien and rich in resources.

You're going to generate enough electricity for industrial use by harnessing electric eels?

Or by rubbing stuff together for static electricity... underwater?


What exactly is this "other tech" you speak of? Could I get an example of how you're going to build an industrial space-faring civilization out of frog mucus?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which would dissolve in salt water anyway.

Also, salt water corrodes most industrial metals.

[Traab]

I dunno, give me 10,000 years to go from subsistence farming sea kelp to today and maybe a way would be figured out. For all we know the octopeople would develop suits that let them come on land and work on their various projects in a place that doesnt rust it away quite so fast. All this scoffing is literally saying, "If you cant create a tech tree that spans thousands of years of massively different evolutionary paths right now, then clearly its impossible for it to happen." Human progress is based on "Well this doesnt work, how do i fix that?" And then eventually figuring it out from there. And you are saying, "Well clearly there are obstacles to progress, so its impossible and they would give up."

[Max_Killjoy]

I dunno, give me 10,000 years to go from subsistence farming sea kelp to today and maybe a way would be figured out. For all we know the octopeople would develop suits that let them come on land and work on their various projects in a place that doesnt rust it away quite so fast.

Thus my earlier comment:

"The idea of an 'wet civilization' is simply bunkus. The first thing your hypothetical optopeople need to do... is get onto dry land."

[Radar]

If only there was some way to generate electricity in a biological organism.. Maybe if there was some kind of eel that does that. But hogwash, such thing will never exist on Earth. Also rubbing different materials would produce electrical charge, even if it would dissipate.

Generating electricity is one thing, directing its flow is somethin completly different. Before you need an insulator, you need a conductor first and no biological system will give you anything comparable with metals. As for elecric metalurgy, there is one more important problem: while electrochemical extraction is perfectly viable method and does not require that high voltages (so it might be within the reach of a biological charge generator, if the octopi learn to stack the batteries in a series circuit), you need a clean chemical containing your metal as a substrate.

The key problem of being aquatic is that water is an extremely good solvent, so even starting up with chemistry as we know it would not be possible without the ability to separate some substances, refine them and safely store them. I would say that most progress would be done through selective breeding of animals and plants, since a living orgnism is a chemical lab separated from the environment to a degree. This however is extremely slow and it would not be easy to see a connection between the selection in use and its effects over time. Until the octopi learn to operate inside air bubbles (if they are breathing air they might), chemistry is unlikely. Without basic chemistry there would be no advanced materials and tools either. Their likely developed chemical senses on the other hand would give them more of an incentive to pursue chemistry.

[Traab]

Thus my earlier comment:

"The idea of an 'wet civilization' is simply bunkus. The first thing your hypothetical optopeople need to do... is get onto dry land."

And this is why I dismiss your comment. Because again, you say, "Omg, there is a problem, therefore they give up and stay stone age at best" I tossed off one random option from the top of my head and you declare that somehow that proves its impossible. Just because you arent capable of drawing that tech tree from farming kelp with a pointy rock to breaking earths orbit doesnt mean that this imaginary aquatic race never could. As for building on dry land. Yeah? Whats wrong with making projects on terrain they arent suited for? Its not like humans dont do plenty of that now. How much of the earth would flat out kill us if we went there without taking any precautions? And yet we do go there.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Frankly, they're more likely to bypass metals and chemistry in favor of some form of bio-plastics. Which still isn't getting them off the planet, and maybe not out onto dry land.

[DataNinja]

Hmm. We could go with "Probably not an octopus" as the next thread title. We are in need of one here.

I could get behind that.

[Keltest]

And this is why I dismiss your comment. Because again, you say, "Omg, there is a problem, therefore they give up and stay stone age at best" I tossed off one random option from the top of my head and you declare that somehow that proves its impossible. Just because you arent capable of drawing that tech tree from farming kelp with a pointy rock to breaking earths orbit doesnt mean that this imaginary aquatic race never could. As for building on dry land. Yeah? Whats wrong with making projects on terrain they arent suited for? Its not like humans dont do plenty of that now. How much of the earth would flat out kill us if we went there without taking any precautions? And yet we do go there.

The original claim was that but for a few evolutionary quirks getting in the way, octopi of equivalent intelligence to humans are as well or better suited for reaching space-faring level of civilization. Several people, including myself, disagreed on the basis that they are utterly unsuited for mastering even fairly basic technologies, let alone ones advanced enough to get somebody into space. The fact is, the environment theyre designed for simply cannot support technology of the level needed.

[Kantaki]

You're going to generate enough electricity for industrial use by harnessing electric eels?

Or by rubbing stuff together for static electricity... underwater?


What exactly is this "other tech" you speak of? Could I get an example of how you're going to build an industrial space-faring civilization out of frog mucus?

Frank Schätzing's The Swarm has an interesting take on that.

Not spacefaring though.

Spoiler: The Swarm

Show

Basically the „Aliens”, the Yrr, are a deep-sea swarm organism capable of bioengineering.
Well, and limited mind-control.

One of the Yrr's tricks is growing crabs as „ amphibious tanks” that are only the shell, enough nerves and stuff to control it and lots of free space for their bio-weapon payload.

Or causing a tsunami in the North Sea by making deep-sea worms destabilize the continental shelf.

So sure, a aquatic civ might develop „bio-tech” of some sort, but I doubt they would reach space solely with that anytime soon.

[Max_Killjoy]

And this is why I dismiss your comment. Because again, you say, "Omg, there is a problem, therefore they give up and stay stone age at best" I tossed off one random option from the top of my head and you declare that somehow that proves its impossible. Just because you arent capable of drawing that tech tree from farming kelp with a pointy rock to breaking earths orbit doesnt mean that this imaginary aquatic race never could. As for building on dry land. Yeah? Whats wrong with making projects on terrain they arent suited for? Its not like humans dont do plenty of that now. How much of the earth would flat out kill us if we went there without taking any precautions? And yet we do go there.

So I issue the same set of questions, and the same challenge, to you as I do to the other poster. You're claiming it's possible -- now show your work. YOU are making the claim that it's possible, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how.

I never said the octopeople couldn't come out of the water -- I'm rejecting the idea that they can have a functional technological civilization comparable to our own or "further" without first becoming at least fully amphibious if not outright terrestrial.

There is no way to make a spaceship out of kelp and stones. The tools and technologies and materials needed to reach space all require getting up out of the water and staying out of it first.

The original claim was that but for a few evolutionary quirks getting in the way, octopi of equivalent intelligence to humans are as well or better suited for reaching space-faring level of civilization. Several people, including myself, disagreed on the basis that they are utterly unsuited for mastering even fairly basic technologies, let alone ones advanced enough to get somebody into space. The fact is, the environment theyre designed for simply cannot support technology of the level needed.

Exactly.

[Onyavar]

I really don't like the way that our dear author makes silly soundbite infodumps during impromptu press conferences, instead of well-formulated press releases. Nobody in serious business goes into press conferences or meetings when they are unprepared! Period.

I vote for:

Grrl Power V: ADHS-afflicted superpowered alien wizards did it!

[Radar]

I really don't like the way that our dear author makes silly soundbite infodumps during impromptu press conferences, instead of well-formulated press releases. Nobody in serious business goes into press conferences or meetings when they are unprepared! Period.

I vote for:

Grrl Power V: ADHS-afflicted superpowered alien wizards did it!

To be frank, this particular press conference was not prepared - it was forced by Sydney's unexpectedly public return.

The first one could have been better perpared when it comes to introduction of Archon members (barring Sydney - it might have been a better idea not to let her talk at all back then).

[-D-]

I never said the octopeople couldn't come out of the water -- I'm rejecting the idea that they can have a functional technological civilization comparable to our own or "further" without first becoming at least fully amphibious if not outright terrestrial.

I never said they needed to stay wet forever, but I disagree they need to be terrestrial. They could be amphibious. Octopi would need to launch from slightly above sea level. As for materials used and labor involved it's hard to speculate. What if octopi start with ability to better understand and manipulate RNA than we have? What if they master graphene same way we master plastic? Do they weave a space elevator instead of launching.

Obviously launching octopi into space would proceed from equatorial sea platform.

However this is GRRLPower. They could just be psionically gifted and able to open Etherrium gates to whatever the **** they want.

[Traab]

So I issue the same set of questions, and the same challenge, to you as I do to the other poster. You're claiming it's possible -- now show your work. YOU are making the claim that it's possible, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how.

I never said the octopeople couldn't come out of the water -- I'm rejecting the idea that they can have a functional technological civilization comparable to our own or "further" without first becoming at least fully amphibious if not outright terrestrial.

There is no way to make a spaceship out of kelp and stones. The tools and technologies and materials needed to reach space all require getting up out of the water and staying out of it first.




Exactly.

So your stance is, "Either come up with 10,000 years worth of alternative development or I will declare it impossible."? Whatever man, fine, you know all see all and understand all. Clearly you have gone through the theorycrating for the entire history of a made up sentient species and determined exactly where they hit a brick wall in progress and its impossible to surpass it. Well done. Obviously there is no other option than to follow exactly in our footsteps and if you cant, you fail as a species.

[Max_Killjoy]

So your stance is, "Either come up with 10,000 years worth of alternative development or I will declare it impossible."? Whatever man, fine, you know all see all and understand all. Clearly you have gone through the theorycrating for the entire history of a made up sentient species and determined exactly where they hit a brick wall in progress and its impossible to surpass it. Well done. Obviously there is no other option than to follow exactly in our footsteps and if you cant, you fail as a species.

You got some straw on your shirt building that thing... no, the other side... there you go.

[-D-]

You got some straw on your shirt building that thing... no, the other side... there you go.

Mangz, you remind me of a professor in a joke.

A student made some snide remarks about a history professor, which the professor overheard. So, professor decides to fail the student. So he asks the student "When did Titanic sank?" "April 14th 1912", replies the student. Now visibly frustrated the professor makes a follow-up question - "And casualties?" The student answers "Around 1502", to which the professor retorts, "I meant names!"

I stated that if the genetical die was differently cast, we could be typing on our cPad with tentacles, but you keep moving the goalposts, demanding ever more detailed explanation how they become space faring race.

Bottom line is that that they can. How? The physics and chemistry laws are the same here and in the sea. Given sufficient time, energy and luck, even cephalopods could become spacefaring race.

If we can do it, so can they. Same goes for corvids, porpoises and probably even elephants. They would have different restrictions, technological development, and evolutionary paths.

[Max_Killjoy]

I never said they needed to stay wet forever, but I disagree they need to be terrestrial. They could be amphibious. Octopi would need to launch from slightly above sea level.

I think I said something about amphibious being enough in the post you quoted...

As for materials used and labor involved it's hard to speculate. What if octopi start with ability to better understand and manipulate RNA than we have? What if they master graphene same way we master plastic?

What on earth does "starting off with ability to understand and manipulate RNA" even mean?

And how are they getting to graphene while skipping 100+ years of polymers?

Do they weave a space elevator instead of launching.

They need to launch rockets to get the space elevator into place.

Mangz, you remind me of a professor in a joke.

A student made some snide remarks about a history professor, which the professor overheard. So, professor decides to fail the student. So he asks the student "When did Titanic sank?" "April 14th 1912", replies the student. Now visibly frustrated the professor makes a follow-up question - "And casualties?" The student answers "Around 1502", to which the professor retorts, "I meant names!"

I stated that if the genetical die was differently cast, we could be typing on our cPad with tentacles, but you keep moving the goalposts, demanding ever more detailed explanation how they become space faring race.

No. The posts are exactly where they've always been.

It's just that under every one of your assumptions there's a set of complications that need to be addressed before that assumption could be potentially be true -- you're mistaking someone asking those questions for "moving the goalposts".

If the "genetical die" were differently cast... the octoptus is probably still just an octopus. The challenges of developing a technological culture underwater are orders of magnitude greater than the challenges on dry land -- and no, that's not "human bias", that just simply chemistry and physics.

[Kantaki]

They need to launch rockets to get the space elevator into place.

Not if they are really good climbers.