The rapid change in Tarquin

[DerekCale]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before...I've never posted in the GitP forums and I'm not sure if there's a search function (I haven't found one). But I'd like to discuss how much Tarquin has changed in his run of the comic.

When he first showed up, he was an ultra-competent LE character running the empire (and half the continent or more) from behind the throne with his group of ex-adventurers. While UNDENIABLY evil, he kind of shattered some of the illusions held by a lot of people (and players) in regards to how evil people think and act. His obvious love for his children shocked Elan, and cemented his place as Evil, but somewhat redefined evil...at least in regards to this comic. (Most of the evil villains in this comic have been wholly and undeniably evil...nothing to show that they have normal lives outside of being evil. Redcloak {with his goal of Goblin equality [Supremacy?]} and Tsukiko {With really just wanting to be loved} would be the closest parallel, but even then both of those characters merely show somewhat noble / understandle motivations for their obviously evil acts)

Fast forward to now. Tarquin has killed one child, for no other reason than that son acted as that son *always* has. No longer do we see the calm, cool, and collected dictator that always has a plan. We're seeing a rage driven maniac who's just flat out murdering people for murder's sake. He had *EXACTLY* what he wanted when the OotS flew away from the Empire of Blood. A conflicted Elan who still felt obligated to come back and take down his father's regime. But instead of just waiting it out, he comes in and stops being the 'redefinition of evil' from before, and just flat out becomes the 2 dimensional cookie cutter villain that we, as D&D players, so often see.

TL;DR I guess I'm just disappointed that the character stopped being so interesting and thought provoking, and just became, frankly, boring.

[Corvis]

He hasn't changed at all. You're just seeing him when he doesn't get his way.

[ThePhantasm]

He didn't murder Nale out of rage. He murdered him out of... disappointment.

Elan and Julio, meanwhile, have been pushing al of Tarquin's buttons. He's unraveling. That's not boring... that's where his whole arc has been going. People have been predicting for awhile that Tarquin's narrative-mastery would be thwarted.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is boring.

[Shadic]

He hasn't changed at all. You're just seeing him when he doesn't get his way.

This.

Tarquin is about control. That should have always been fairly obvious. He's losing control, thus he's going down in a whirlwind of desperation and rash actions, all for "the greater goodnarrative, from his perspective."

[kalkyrie]

Personally I think Tarquin missed a trick.
Instead of attacking Haley, he could have sundered the rope which is pulling up Julio.
He could then claim victory at that point by simply leaving (his party has teleportation, the OoTS do not).

His 'burn everything to ash' approach is more than a little off the deep end.
(After all Tarquin should know we are in at least Act 2 of the story. He should be encasing Elan's party members in carbonite, not killing them. Not enough time to bring in new lackeys for Elan ;) ).

[Morty]

Tarquin was calm, amicable and wise-cracking when he thought everything was going his way. When it became clear things weren't going his way, the cracks in is façade began to show. And it as only spiralled downhill since Elan first denied him at the Rift.

[FujinAkari]

TL;DR I guess I'm just disappointed that the character stopped being so interesting and thought provoking, and just became, frankly, boring.

See... that's the thing. Tarquin didn't change. At all.

Tarquin has always been someone who is methodical and competent, who looks down the long road and decides how things are meant to play out. His greatest strength is his ability to predict the flow of events, but his fatal flaw is his reliance on being in control and his insistence that things play out precisely as he has envisioned.

As with so many characters, we meet them when their fatal flaw is recessed, when things are good. The initial Tarquin was in absolute control of his environment and was able to influence the actions of the majority of the continent.

However, as time has past, Tarquin has steadily lost his control of the situation and has run out of clever ploys to re-assert his will on unfolding events, and we are seeing the steady emergence of his fatal flaw.

So, in short, yes: Tarquin is becoming less "fleshed out" because his essential need is being more and more directly threatened. When Tarquin isn't in control of his environment, the only thing Tarquin does is gain control of his environment. It is only when that is achieved that the other facets of his personality can come to the surface.

tldr; Tarquin didn't change, our understanding of Tarquin did.

[Gift Jeraff]

He's always been needlessly and disproportionately antagonizing people for the pettiest of reasons.

[Kish]

Tarquin has not changed. The creepy control freak who literally did not hear "I don't want to marry you" as anything he needed to care about is exactly the same as the creepy control freak who heard "I want you out of my life" as "I don't want a life." The only difference is that the former was directed at a bit character and the latter at a recurring villain with a name.

A great many people on the board saw him as far cooler, far more powerful, and most especially far more sane than he ever was. Their disappointment was inevitable. A is A, Tarquin is Tarquin. Tarquin doesn't realize Elan would already come back because--in an ironic mirror of posts which treat "ripped the liver out of a living sapient being so that he could have exotic food at his feast" as representing a far lower level of evil than killing Nale--he doesn't realize that burning a few dozen nameless slaves alive is something Elan truly cares about, enough to come after him for; in Tarquin's mind, he hasn't done anything personal to Elan (or Elan's property, such as the redhead with the perky eyes), so he hasn't done anything it makes sense for Elan to come after him for.

[dancrilis]

Tarquin should know we are in at least Act 2 of the story.

Hmm ... in my opinion no.

Elan meet his father for the first time, had a reunion, found out he was evil - but had no reason to oppose him personally, now he is getting a reason.

This is the prelude from Tarquin's point of view.

Everything that happened before this is backstory of no real importance - sure it might get its own book sometime to flesh out the story of how Elan came to be - but it isn't important for the Tarquin story.

Chapter One will start with Elan shattered and alone needing to collect himself and find his way in the world so he can oppose his evil father - it will likely end with him in a town being robbed by a good natured love interest/comic relief character who will introduce him to some other people who might help against his father.
And from there the story truly begins.

[Lamech]

And from there the story truly begins.

Tarquin is being savvy about the wrong story. He isn't important. End of the World Xykon is what matters. The Snarl is what matters. The Dark One, the oppression by the Sapphire Guard, and Redcloak's character arc are important. Tarquin could never be more than a side villain or, if he was lucky, the guy Elan teams up with to fight the even greater evil.

But now that's ruined. Tarquin has chosen the role of insane side villain. And thus he shall die for his delusions of grandeur.

[ReaderAt2046]

As I posted elsewhere, this is showing Tarquin's greatest asset being twisted against him. Tarquin is incredibly Genre Saavy and will faithfully follow the narrative no matter where it takes him. Usually, this is a huge advantage, because it means that he always knows what's going on, always has a suitable plan, and the plan is always perfect. However, he is now following the wrong storyline, which means that his actions are increasingly being based on an erroneous concept of the world. For the first time since we met him, he's trying to fight the Story instead of riding it, and it's pushing him into more and more ridiculous positions.

Frankly, I'm more surprised that Laurin is keeping this up. Loyalty to a friend is a good thing, but I would have expected her to say "Give up, they've won this round" by now.

[RMS Oceanic]

I wouldn't say he's "changed" per se. Just that more of his character has been revealed to us. Before 927 we didn't know how he dealt with his plans being derailed.

[Deliverance]

When he first showed up, he was an ultra-competent LE character running the empire (and half the continent or more) from behind the throne with his group of ex-adventurers. While UNDENIABLY evil, he kind of shattered some of the illusions held by a lot of people (and players) in regards to how evil people think and act.

He also revealed, inadvertently, how a lot of readers have no idea about how egocentrism and narcissism can work in an otherwise intelligent person, therefore causing them to repeatedly misread his actions for something they were not.

Tarquin was a thoroughly manipulative bastard from the start, living his life according to his own rules of narrative causality, treating everybody he has relations with based on how he sees their role in his story, and valuing everybody based on their value as assets to be acquired, used, or discarded in the telling of his story - which inter alia doesn't preclude friendship or love, but does make both rather conditional - and he has been completely consistent in his actions.

For those that still don't get it, read up on pathologically narcissistic parents and evaluate his behaviour towards Elan and Nale in that light.

[ThePhantasm]

Frankly, I'm more surprised that Laurin is keeping this up. Loyalty to a friend is a good thing, but I would have expected her to say "Give up, they've won this round" by now.

She must really want that favor.

[Porthos]

As has been commented upon, the other thing the last 20 comics or so has shown is that Nale really didn't fall that far from the tree when it comes to petty need for revenge or obsessive behavior.

Well, the petty need for revenge had already been established, but this is hammering it home.

Tarquin is far more like Nale than he would like to admit, I think.

[Morty]

He also revealed, inadvertently, how a lot of readers have no idea about how egocentrism and narcissism can work in an otherwise intelligent person, therefore causing them to repeatedly misread his actions for something they were not.

Tarquin was a thoroughly manipulative bastard from the start, living his life according to his own rules of narrative causality, treating everybody he has relations with based on how he sees their role in his story, and valuing everybody based on their value as assets to be acquired, used, or discarded in the telling of his story - which inter alia doesn't preclude friendship or love, but does make both rather conditional - and he has been completely consistent in his actions.

For those that still don't get it, read up on pathologically narcissistic parents and evaluate his behaviour towards Elan and Nale in that light.

One of the things I like about this comic is that it realistically depicts highly intelligent and perceptive characters doing stupid, irrational and self-destructive things because of their convictions, delusions or obsessions. I think there's this expectation on the readers' part for intelligent people to always behave rationally and sensibly, and OotS subverts this expectation skilfully.

[Gift Jeraff]

As has been commented upon, the other thing the last 20 comics or so has shown is that Nale really didn't fall that far from the tree when it comes to petty need for revenge or obsessive behavior.

Well, the petty need for revenge had already been established, but this is hammering it home.

Tarquin is far more like Nale than he would like to admit, I think.

Though it should be noted that even Nale is willing to let his persistent obsessesions subside and temporarily cut his losses:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

I don't think Tarquin would've done the same in Nale's situation. Rather than admit that Xykon, Miko, and D-listers would steal some of the spotlight, I think he would stay under the notion that all these lesser characters would be put to the side in order to make room for him.

[Porthos]

Though it should be noted that even Nale is willing to let his persistent obsessesions subside and temporarily cut his losses

I was thinking that exact same thing, though I was having trouble remembering the exact comic to point to.

Another one would be pointing out that Nale finally ditched the whole 'Evil Opposites' thing when he realized it was just counterproductive and stupid.

But apparently Tarquin is too Lawful stubborn to course correct in situations like this.

[shockeroo]

I agree that this is more of a reveal than a change; Tarquin will do anything rather than accept defiance. He is a draconian authoritarian, and would rather murder one son, and his other son's loved ones, rather than accept their disobedience.

[Orm-Embar]

It's been surprising to me that Tarquin is so brittle and inflexible, but maybe that comes with being the winner in every encounter all the way up to whatever level he is. I would count this as more of a reveal than a character arc though. Certainly I'd guess he was always like this and we're just now getting to see it due to the adverse circumstances.

[BlackDragonKing]

Though it should be noted that even Nale is willing to let his persistent obsessesions subside and temporarily cut his losses:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

I don't think Tarquin would've done the same in Nale's situation. Rather than admit that Xykon, Miko, and D-listers would steal some of the spotlight, I think he would stay under the notion that all these lesser characters would be put to the side in order to make room for him.

Really? That's the impression you got? Tarquin's deliberately ducking out of trying to get involved in the Gate plot because he knows he has a 50-50 chance of dying in a fight with Xykon. The fact that he's not giving appropriate weight to the heroes he's antagonizing is a different matter.

[Douglas]

He had *EXACTLY* what he wanted when the OotS flew away from the Empire of Blood. A conflicted Elan who still felt obligated to come back and take down his father's regime.

Actually no, that is *NOT* what Tarquin wanted - not in full. It's missing the critical element of Elan being the primary hero of the story. Tarquin wants "a conflicted Elan the Main Protagonist who still feels obligated to come back and take down his father's regime." Tarquin will not be satisfied until *EVERY* part of that is description is accurate, and as it stands Elan is still Roy's sidekick. Add that to all the control freak, narcissism, and family-oriented factors that everyone else has already pointed out, and Tarquin's actions are perfectly in character with everything we have ever seen of him.

[Socratov]

Guys, can we please remember that Tarquin is an intelligent LE NPC with delusions of grandeur? I mena, it's like he said, he wants a legacy, and running an empire form behind the scenes won't bring that. So, instead he wants a legacyof which bards will tell tales of aeons to come. It's no coincidence he, with this genre savviness, uses Star Wars References, only he was smarter: he bet on 2 horses, or sons so to speak. The first was to crate a way of a dynasty (Nale following him up as shadow ruler/evil overlord), the second he had as a back-up for when the son was disappointing him. If we really compare Star Wars to the current plot of OotS, Roy is Han Solo. IN the original movies (IIRC), Han Solo is the hero, hte leader, etc. When Han is encased in carbonite, Luke takes over and by Return of the Jedi Han has gone to sidekick, and Luke has become the hero. In the current storytelling of OotS, We allready see Elan showing leader traits (making plans, using resources, etc.). But things are not going the way Tarquin want them to. They are moving too slow and Targuin is trying to speed up that process.

Something tells me Tarquin has a secret involving his time left and I think it's not much, else Tarquin woudl have let them get away trusting in the laws of narrative to grant Elan his spotlight and defeat him. The fact that he wants his demise as soon as possible prompts me to believe that his time is indeed dwindling and he knows it.

[Irenaeus]

TL;DR I guess I'm just disappointed that the character stopped being so interesting and thought provoking, and just became, frankly, boring.

My view on this is the complete opposite. Tarquin has become a much more interesting character since we got to see the facade break away. The overly perfect villain isn't that interesting a character in himself. With the added delusional and obsessive aspects, he most certainly is.

[factotum]

Tarquin's deliberately ducking out of trying to get involved in the Gate plot because he knows he has a 50-50 chance of dying in a fight with Xykon.

What? Tarquin doesn't even know who Xykon *is*. As far as he's concerned, Xykon is a side-villain whose only purpose is to get defeated to prove his son's heroic credentials before he can come and defeat the main villain--who is Tarquin himself, of course. If he had any real interest in the Gates he wouldn't have allowed Nale to lead the party that went looking for Girard's Gate in the pyramid, because he knows what an idiot Nale was.

[SaintRidley]

However, he is now following the wrong storyline,

He always was.

[Gift Jeraff]

Really? That's the impression you got? Tarquin's deliberately ducking out of trying to get involved in the Gate plot because he knows he has a 50-50 chance of dying in a fight with Xykon. The fact that he's not giving appropriate weight to the heroes he's antagonizing is a different matter.

Tarquin pursuing Xykon himself would be messing with what he perceives to be the proper narrative structure and natural order. It would be throwing things out of control and that's where the toss-up comes in.

Nale pursuing the OOTS during the war would have been Nale doing what he usually does. Instead, he chose to sacrifice the short-term for the long-term. He was able to put aside his crazy obsession for over 10 months.

Tarquin pursuing the OOTS right now is Tarquin thinking in the short-term ("The story needs to be fixed RIGHT NOW!!!"), rather than put aside his obsession for a day, then attack the OOTS at another time.

My view on this is the complete opposite. Tarquin has become a much more interesting character since we got to see the facade break away. The overly perfect villain isn't that interesting a character in himself. With the added delusional and obsessive aspects, he most certainly is.

I agree. Frustrated Tarquin is a lot more enjoyable than "Everything you do is either harmless or beneficial to me!" Tarquin.

[WindStruck]

Oh c'mon, Tarquin is acting perfectly natural. Really, he'd be doing this all with a straight face except Elan made him mad. And Elan defying him isn't what made him mad. It's the fact that Tarquin is now being forced to murder his girlfriend, all his friends, his mentor, and chop off his hand... after he did the dramatic "I am your father" reveal.

Any good storyteller would say you are supposed to do all that beforehand, for maximum shock.

[Obscure Blade]

He hasn't changed at all. You're just seeing him when he doesn't get his way.

This. He's a control freak, OCD about stories and an egomaniac. He's really competent, self-controlled and clever as long as he's in control and as long as everything both revolves around him and fits what he thinks the story is supposed to be like. But change any of those factors and he starts to lose it; both his judgement and his emotional control start to collapse.

Look at his "Genre Savvy" skills. As long as everything going on revolved around him and his plans he was both self-controlled and extremely competent, capable of predicting and manipulating events with ease. But as soon as events started occurring related to the larger story where he isn't the central figure that went out the window; he is clearly incapable or unwilling to admit that he is not the central villain and that he is not in a story mainly about the conflict between Elan and his father. He knows about Xykon, but clearly never inquired how powerful he is and can't even be bothered to get the name right - Xykon isn't Tarquin, therefore in Tarquin's mind Xykon can't be the main villain.