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Thread: Elan's Hypocrisy?
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2008-09-25, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Elan's Hypocrisy?
Hey, I'm all for good character development and of any of the characters, Elan has been the one to really gain some depth (and find some cajones)...but isn't he a bit (dare I say quite a bit) hypocritical for scolding V when he had been traveling with Belkar for all those years? I'm sure someone has the innocent kill count for Belkar, but Elan would have had to of turned innumerable blind eyes to Belkar's acts of, well, bald-faced MURDER, and yet when V zaps someone based on a fairly accurate judgment call, all of a sudden Elan steps on the moral soapbox.
So....do I have the facts wrong or is Elan hypocrite?
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2008-09-25, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
You forget that Elan is more story-wise than character-wise. Why scold the cold murder whose role, in the group, is to murder? Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, is one of the "responsible".
Elan never protest when someone act the way it is supposed to act, by trope or canon.
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2008-09-25, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
I don't think so. Belkar was kept on a fairly tight leash by Roy, and if not Roy then Durkon. I guess really how many acts of evil (like bald-face MURDER) have we seen Belkar commit in front of Elan? If he was doing to much out of control stuff Roy and Durkon would be on his case. That was kind of a point of Belkar's relationship with the Order - they limited his outrageousness. We knew he was evil, Miko couldn't prove it because of a lead sheet kind of thing.
Now remove Roy and Durkon and you have what Haley has had to put up with. And Elan has matured and not so naive anymore.
And Belkar only ever suggested killing tied up prisoners, he never actually did it in front of Elan. Now if he'd stabbed Nale in the eye the first time they caught him, well, I dare say Elan would have had something to say about it.Last edited by Dr. Cthulwho; 2008-09-25 at 12:46 PM.
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2008-09-25, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
The only time I can think of that Belkar killed a monster after it surrendered was in comic 115. Sorry my HTML skills are that good. Elan wasn't around because he was to busy pressing the self destruct button.
Anyways, Belkar is evil and that type of behaviour is well within Belkar's character. V has always been a neutral type so this was very out of character. I can't for the life of me remember anytime where a similar situation happened in comic.
I don't think Elan is being hypocritical at all. Like I said before he has never witnessed a person he looks up to do something so evil in front of him before.Sniper Extraordinaire for Clan Giant (now defunked)
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2008-09-25, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Uh... you may observe that Elan essentially uses Belkar as a prime example of what V should NOT be doing.
"I honestly don't see any problem with that plan! Rock on, elf buddy!"
And to be frank, I am deeply frightened and confused by what look like emergent traces of Elan's intellect.Last edited by Samurai Jill; 2008-09-25 at 02:14 PM.
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2008-09-25, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
I would say Wit more than Intellect
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2008-09-25, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Maybe Elan wanted to kill Kubota himself.
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2008-09-25, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
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2008-09-25, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
I'm not sure if he's a hypocrite, but he's not being Elan right now, and that's annoying. Sarcastic, understanding what's going on, responsible, competent with his illusions and even catching Kubota... He becoming some kind of tragic hero, I hope he'll be back to normal when he meets back with Haley.
He was still himself when Roy first scried on him, what with the eyepatch and everything. Hell, he was still himself with the rendezvous. I understand that Therkla's death (and now, Kabuto's death) had an effect on him, it's normal I guess, but I hope it's not definite. I hope it's not a character change, more of phase to develop him further.
This being said, he's not a hypocrite, because at Belkar's time, Elan was just too oblivious to whatever was going on around him to pass such a judgement. Now, he isn't anymore.
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2008-09-25, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-25, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-25, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-25, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
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2008-09-25, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Vader. Happy ending (of sorts: morally redeemed, saved galaxy) Still a tragic hero.
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2008-09-25, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
True, I did see that on the list of tragic heroes on Wikipedia, but I disagree with it. I think he's a tragic hero in Episodes I through III but ceases to be so in IV through VI. I see Episodes I through III as a separate story from IV through VI.
In short I disagree with Vader being called a tragic hero, or at least an Aristotelian tragic hero, though I can agree with Anakin being called a tragic hero, even an Aristotelian one.Thanks to zegma for my awesome avatar.
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2008-09-25, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Tragic Hero, Villain, and Redeemed Villain in succession. A tragic hero who has become a villain. Does he automatically lose tragic hero status when focus moves away from him?
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2008-09-25, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
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2008-09-25, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
of course, given that they were produced long after, any "tragic hero" in Vader is retroactive.
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2008-09-25, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-25, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Elan is not being a hypocrite- you've a slight missunderstanding of the word. Elan would be a hyprocrite if he casually killed important NPCs and then scolded V for doing the same.
What he is being- by scolding V but not scolding Belkar for the same thing- is inconsistant. Technically.
Technically, he is also being inconsistant when he stabs hobgoblins but doesn't stab his girlfriend.
But in the real world (and in stick figure web comics), people don't treat everyone the same.
Which is sensible. Trying to scold Belkar for being evil would be pretty hopeless.
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2008-09-25, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Also, while Elan is still an idiot, he's not as stupid as he was at the start of the comic. Back in strip #11, he didn't even know that Belkar was Evil. Exactly when he figured that out, who knows.
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2008-09-25, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
I think Elan's genre-savvy nature is what is consistent here: minor character aren't really "people" in a literary sense, so Belkar's treatment of them isn't worth constraining. Kubota is a major character, so V's treatment of him in a manner reminiscent of Belkar is worth noting and objecting to (although too late).
Now, whether that is hypocritical or not is a slightly different matter, and my internal jury is still out. For the reasons above, though, I think any hypocrisy would be fairly minor.
ETA: If Elan is indeed CG, the hypocritical part of this would be his determination to take the issue to court. V's action really falls well into the CG spectrum, IMHO: Kubota is obviously guilty, and has admitted it to Elan and stated his intention to exploit the system to escape justice. Ergo, Good cannot be served except by taking direct, personal action. Has Elan shifted to NG?Last edited by Occasional Sage; 2008-09-25 at 04:50 PM.
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2008-09-25, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
The sense I get from Elan is that his player is a newbie who has been slowly learning how the game works.
The basic nature of the character hasn't changed, but the cute, comical cluelessness has been slowly wearing off (and- let's be honest- it would have worn a bit thin by now anyway).
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2008-09-25, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-25, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
I didn't mean he was actually becoming a tragic hero, or would remain one for that matter. I meant he looked like one, right now. I know the unhappy war phase is just that, a phase, and the story gets brighter later on, the Giant stated so.
I'm just saying Elan isn't the same and it kinda sucks, fortunately we sill have the CitD for our dose of naiveté and childishness.
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2008-09-25, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
I don't see the hypocrisy- Elan expects more of Varsuvius, and is a little upset that someone he looks up to would be so callous. Belkar does this sort of thin all the time but that's Belkar, what are you going to do about it? Fish will swim, yeah? As far as Elan's concerned, this has come out of the blue. The two have never been in a moral argument, the same way V and Roy have been a few times, so I'm putting Elan's reaction down to shock and dissapointment, maybe even a mild sense of betrayal.
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2008-09-25, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
Belkar is a foil, and foils are allowed to remain foils as long as they keep finding new and varied ways of foiling. He has stayed fresh to my eyes- the Belkar who broke out of prison and slaughtered a bunch of Azurites was more ruthless than the one in the first few hundred comics, for example, while the mark of justice has made things more complicated in the present. The evolution of his feud with V, the way he seemed almost heroic when contrasted with Miko (as he became an antagonist to a character most of us hated), Roy's death and Haley's attempts to replace him as Belkar's babysitter, etc.
I think he'll always be a ruthless little jerk, but I still find him interesting. YMMV.
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2008-09-25, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-25, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?
It's just this simple: When Belkar was around, it was Roy's job to scold him. It's not that Elan gave him a free pass, it's that Belkar was already getting in trouble anyway. Elan is ultimately willing to let other people do the mental "heavy lifting" when they are around; he only goes into hero-mode when he is alone, like right now.
Roy is not here now, so Elan is trying to act like he thinks Roy would, and that means scolding V.
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2008-09-25, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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