Tactical Question - Haley

[multilis]

I assume that Laurin is also bedecked in lots of magic items and gold. She's one of the six people who control the entire continent. She's also a powerful spellcaster, so she's less dependent on magic items than "So-far-purely-martial" Tarquin anyway.

Finally, why in the hell would she need to have some sort of convoluted scheme involving bearing Tarquin's children to get his magical stuff? I'm sure if she needs something badly enough, she could just ask the man. They did used to be an adventuring party and all.

There are no reasons that make sense given what we know that Laurin wants or needs anything sex-related from Tarquin. To believe otherwise is to admit that you can't get over the "woman = sex" barrier.

1) I think you are taking this all too serious. This is an OOTS topic about Haley and "flying shank" adversary. Does that really sound to you like serious schollarly debate? (I don't think L is trying to mate with T)

2) I think some of other stuff being discussed is off topic and nothing to do with OOTS story, and thus I can't respond to that in this thread, perhaps not even on this board based on forum rules.

3) Taking T's share of wealth along with her own is obviously a doubling of wealth. Game of thrones and many other stories have marriages arranged to *double* the wealth rather than multiply by 10. (T has Malack as ally in his empire, possible that T has Malack's share as well and she did go for Malack's staff "greedily" [don't take argument too seriously here])

[multilis]

This topic stopped being about a "flying shank"[sic] by the end of page 1. If anything, doubling back around to Laurin is off-topic for the thread itself.

I don't understand what you're saying at 2). That if Laurin tries some sort of zany scheme to bed Tarquin she'll be able to make way more than just by asking him?

Why would she need to?

Why does she need Tarquin at all? Actually that's a good question. She literally doesn't need anything from him at this point. All we know is that she loves her daughter, and wants to keep said daughter away from Tarquin's crazy schemes, so I doubt her favor has anything to do with her daughter. But that's a different thread.

The point is, if you think that she wants or needs anything marriage- or sex-related from Tarquin, you're likely wrong.

Why does Laurin run an empire rather than retire far away? By your logic she should retire, less risk.

Any mage that can create own food, clothing, shelter with very little effort has no more need to adventure, could find secluded spot to live out rest of life.

She wants power. With one favor and a little other help she can get the share of 2 of her teammates. If all she had to do was ask T for all his power, why didn't her team mates do that and get it before she did?

T is very clear in last few strips he cares most about his legacy... his children. So that is the *key* to his power.

[Kevka Palazzo]

3) Taking T's share of wealth along with her own is obviously a doubling of wealth. Game of thrones and many other stories have marriages arranged to *double* the wealth rather than multiply by 10. (T has Malack as ally in his empire, possible that T has Malack's share as well and she did go for Malack's staff "greedily" [don't take argument too seriously here])

Emphasis mine.

I now no longer understand what you're talking about. But since you don't seem to be malicious, I'd request that you reread this thread: it stopped being about a silly joke by the end of page one. The Giant himself came down to discuss with us. There is a serious discussion happening here.

[multilis]

Emphasis mine.

I now no longer understand what you're talking about. But since you don't seem to be malicious, I'd request that you reread this thread: it stopped being about a silly joke by the end of page one. The Giant himself came down to discuss with us. There is a serious discussion happening here.

I take "off topic" as being based on topic that started the thread. "One topic per thread."

Some of other parts are loosely tied to "shank". But I don't think a thread turns magically into different topics, you start new threads for them. And all OOTS section threads should be directly tied to OOTS. If making comparison to other societies, I have to use fantasy settings/stories rather than real life to avoid the real life politics part as "sexism" is *very* strongly tied to real life politics.

So I am talking about Haley and her shank adversaries and whether Laurin *could* have wanted a "shank" related favour. *Possible* does not mean likely.

[Kevka Palazzo]

She wants power. With one favor and a little other help she can get the share of 2 of her teammates. If all she had to do was ask T for all his power, why didn't her team mates do that and get it before she did?

The whole point of Team Tarquin's team is that nobody holds all of the cards, and nobody's in the spotlight. She's already tied for the most powerful position in the continent with only [strike]5[/strike] 4 other people.

And you're saying, based on nothing, that she wants to somehow cheat Tarquin's power away from him through his progeny?

[Sir_Leorik]

I was with you up until this. Tragic? This is an adult red dragon who is unquestionably evil and at least partially responsible for the atrocities of the Empire of Blood that we are talking about.

Yes, it is tragic. She is not in control of her destiny, and is completely oblivious to that fact. That doesn't detract from her responsibility for joining Tarquin, any more than MacBeth is not culpable for murdering Duncan, despite the fact that the three witches foretold his rise to power. If the witches hadn't told MacBeth he would become Thane of Cawdor and King, he would not have murdered Duncan or Banquo. Tarquin recruited the Empress, she fought alongside his army, and against the Linear Guild, and then Tarquin manipulated her for his benefit. She's a tragic villain. Or maybe a tragi-comic villain.

[multilis]

The whole point of Team Tarquin's team is that nobody holds all of the cards, and nobody's in the spotlight. She's already tied for the most powerful position in the continent with only [strike]5[/strike] 4 other people.

And you're saying, based on nothing, that she wants to somehow cheat Tarquin's power away from him through his progeny?

There is no cheating, T has been very clear about how his legacy/children will inherit. If his other progeny dies and she creates him a baby then her baby is the natural fair heir.

She gets share of T and Malack as well as her own, all from behind the scenes, her child is in front of scenes. Eg Game of thrones has a King Joffery, that is held in place by his mother, grandfather and Little finger because it profits them from behind the scenes.

I said it was *possible* rather than *likely* that her favor was a "shank" one. This is *why* it would be possible, if she worked that way. (And to be honest I am explaining it is possible mainly because this topic is a joke... "shank adversary" is tabloid material, and no way to have a good serious discussion on such a topic when real life politics are taboo in forum rules)

[Kish]

This is an adult red dragon who is unquestionably evil and at least partially responsible for the atrocities of the Empire of Blood that we are talking about.

Evidence for any of the bolded words?

Based on her being unable to cast spells, she's probably Juvenile. She is no more responsible for the atrocities of Tarquin's empire than Lord Tyrinar the Responsible was. The evidence of her evil is "Haley once said so." That leaves...She's a red dragon. Which um yeah.

[AKA_Bait]

There is no cheating, T has been very clear about how his legacy/children will inherit.

That he has, but only in that they will not inherit anything. Tarquin made a deal with Malack that Malack would get to create his human sacrifice empire to Nergal in exchange for a bigger statue.

Also, you seem to be overlooking the fact that Laurin is a full spellcaster (or its equivalent) and Tarquin is not, neither was Nale. If she wanted his stuff, she could probably just take it regardless upon his death.

[Kevka Palazzo]

There is no cheating, T has been very clear about how his legacy/children will inherit. If his other progeny dies and she creates him a baby then her baby is the natural fair heir.

She gets share of T and Malack as well as her own, all from behind the scenes, her child is in front of scenes. Eg Game of thrones has a King Joffery, that is held in place by his mother, grandfather and Little finger because it profits them from behind the scenes.

I said it was *possible* rather than *likely* that her favor was a "shank" one. This is *why* it would be possible, if she worked that way. (And to be honest I am explaining it is possible mainly because this topic is a joke... "shank adversary" is tabloid material, and no way to have a good serious discussion on such a topic when real life politics are taboo in forum rules)

No, you're using the "this topic is clearly a joke" excuse to hide what I should have realized was obvious trolling.

My mistake.

[AKA_Bait]

Evidence for any of the bolded words?

Based on her being unable to cast spells, she's probably Juvenile. She is no more responsible for the atrocities of Tarquin's empire than Lord Tyrinar the Responsible was. The evidence of her evil is "Haley once said so." That leaves...She's a red dragon. Which um yeah.

No. This is not a baby black dragon situation. She was an active participant in the formation of the Empire of Blood. She also eats humans.

[zimmerwald1915]

No. This is not a baby black dragon situation. She was an active participant in the formation of the Empire of Blood.

How does that strip show what you are trying to say it shows?

She also eats humans.

So?

[Angel Bob]

With regards to Kish and the Empress of Blood: Yep, she's bad news. If you need even more concrete and specific evidence, she also personally killed Lord Tyrinar.

[AKA_Bait]

How does that strip show what you are trying to say it shows?

She's in the background actively participating in the fight with Nale, fighting Thog, at the formation of the Empire she will at least nominally be ruling. When you knowingly help found an evil empire, you are at least partially responsible for the crimes of said empire. This is not like sitting at home in your cave reading Playdrake.

So?

She's willing to indiscriminately kill and eat sapient beings. That's evil. She doesn't get the pass a non-sapient animal gets for that sort of thing or that a child would get for being fed whatever by their parent.

[Shale]

She is a child, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

She's in the background actively participating in the fight with Nale, fighting Thog, at the formation of the Empire she will at least nominally be ruling. When you knowingly help found an evil empire, you are at least partially responsible for the crimes of said empire. This is not like sitting at home in your cave reading Playdrake.

That's an impressive elision you're making in the timeline. Here's what the strip tells us. Tarquin and co., including Nale, "helped conquer a nation for the Empress of Blood". First, note that Tarquin does not say "helped the Empress of Blood conquer a nation". For all we know, Tarquin and Nale assassinated Tyrinar and Tarquin offered the Empress a crown that she just flew in and took. We are then told that Nale rebelled against the Empress, against Tarquin's wishes. Nale and the Empress were not two equally legitimate contenders fighting contemporaneously for an empty throne. The Empress had, through Tarquin's machinations, won her throne by right of conquest, and defended it, with Tarquin's help, from a rebel.

Now normally I'm sympathetic to rebels and wish the Giant would stop making them all out to be colossal *******s who need to go down. I'm also not terribly sympathetic to the regime of private property. But the Empress was defending the property she had won by right of conquest as surely as the YABD was defending his [mother's]. If you accept the one as legitimate, you must accept the other.

She's willing to indiscriminately kill and eat sapient beings. That's evil. She doesn't get the pass a non-sapient animal gets for that sort of thing or that a child would get for being fed whatever by their parent.

I'm not sure where you're getting "indiscriminately" from. For all we know, her meals are culled, like Malack's, from the ranks of those judged guilty by the courts.

[Math_Mage]

That's an impressive elision you're making in the timeline. Here's what the strip tells us. Tarquin and co., including Nale, "helped conquer a nation for the Empress of Blood". First, note that Tarquin does not say "helped the Empress of Blood conquer a nation". For all we know, Tarquin and Nale assassinated Tyrinar and Tarquin offered the Empress a crown that she just flew in and took.

We actually know that's not what happened. There's still a question of just how much moral agency to attribute to EoB for that action, but...well...she ate Tyrinar.

I'm not sure where you're getting "indiscriminately" from. For all we know, her meals are culled, like Malack's, from the ranks of those judged guilty by the courts.

Because the courts are so discriminating? /shrug

I think the stronger argument is that the Empress might just be told, "These are Bad People, it's okay to eat them," and she's not mature enough to have agency. It's pure speculation, but at least it supports the point.

[orrion]

I'm not sure where you're getting "indiscriminately" from. For all we know, her meals are culled, like Malack's, from the ranks of those judged guilty by the courts.

.... The courts are obviously not a system where guilt or innocence is a big factor in their decision making.

And just because the red dragon is eating people who may or may not be guilty doesn't mean she isn't eating people. Malack was still evil for that.

[NerdyKris]

.... The courts are obviously not a system where guilt or innocence is a big factor in their decision making.

How do you figure? The courts were evil, but the bounty hunters were imprisoned for extorting the general, which we clearly saw them do. Just because the penalties were harsh doesn't mean they weren't guilty of the crimes they were accused of.

[zimmerwald1915]

We actually know that's not what happened. There's still a question of just how much moral agency to attribute to EoB for that action, but...well...she ate Tyrinar.

Tyrinar's title proclaimed him bloody tyrant and the Empress had no reason to believe that was a lie. Indeed, I doubt anyone but Tarquin and Miron was privy to Tyrinar's thoughts on government. Oh, and he might have been dead at the time she ate him. The expression Tarquin referred to could have been due to rigor mortis.

[AKA_Bait]

For all we know, Tarquin and Nale assassinated Tyrinar and Tarquin offered the Empress a crown that she just flew in and took.

Except, as Angel Bob just pointed out, The Empress personally ate Tyrinar.

We are then told that Nale rebelled against the Empress, against Tarquin's wishes. Nale and the Empress were not two equally legitimate contenders fighting contemporaneously for an empty throne. The Empress had, through Tarquin's machinations, won her throne by right of conquest, and defended it, with Tarquin's help, from a rebel.

Except that she hadn't been crowned yet. They were, as such, equally legitimate contenders fighting contemporaneously for an empty throne. In fact, her claim would probably have been less legitimate than Nale's if she wasn't part of the fighting to take the Empire because Nale actually was part of the conquest, if working for his dad at the time.

I'm not sure where you're getting "indiscriminately" from. For all we know, her meals are culled, like Malack's, from the ranks of those judged guilty by the courts.

She ate Tyrinar. She would have eaten Elan just because he would have "gotten up in her business about slavery." Perhaps indiscriminately was not the perfect word, but eating those who are judged guilty by a court system that finds everyone guilty really isn't much better, if that is what she was doing.

She is a child, though.

She's certainly in one of the younger age categories because of her inability to cast spells (presumably, her low int might also explain it). That does not function as a total excuse though. Unlike with the baby black dragon, where we had no evidence of evil actions (the dragon there was acting in self defense against a home invasion), we do have evidence here.

How do you figure? The courts were evil, but the bounty hunters were imprisoned for extorting the general, which we clearly saw them do. Just because the penalties were harsh doesn't mean they weren't guilty of the crimes they were accused of.

The conviction rate was 114%.

Tyrinar's title proclaimed him bloody tyrant and the Empress had no reason to believe that was a lie. Indeed, I doubt anyone but Tarquin and Miron was privy to Tyrinar's thoughts on government. Oh, and he might have been dead at the time she ate him. The expression Tarquin referred to could have been due to rigor mortis.

You seem to want to apply the most charitable possible explanation for her involvement even where it's a particularly big stretch (rigor mortis? Come on, we know that's not what Tarquin meant). That's fine, I'm not going to do that. I see plenty of evidence here of her evil alignment.

[Kish]

No. This is not a baby black dragon situation. She was an active participant in the formation of the Empire of Blood. She also eats humans.

She's stupid (and young) and she does what she's told.

Again, just like Lord Tyrinar the Responsible (except that he probably didn't eat humans--though I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to serve him grilled lizardfolk, and everyone who eats at one of Tarquin's feasts eats sapients). Maybe you would classify Lord Tyrinar as evil just as readily, but there's still less than no indication of "adult," none of "partially responsible for the atrocities of the Empire of Blood," and the phrasing "at least" indicates that it's theoretically possible she's completely responsible for them, which it really, really isn't. Kilkil does what Tarquin tells him, including sending people to a horrible death for annoying Tarquin, and almost certainly eats sapients whenever Tarquin holds a feast; he's officially Lawful Neutral.

Dragons cast as sorcerers; her low Intelligence would no more hamstring her spellcasting, were she old enough to cast, than Elan's low Intelligence hamstrings his.

(I think the Empress of Blood is probably evil in the same way Thog was/is; I just don't think we should overstate the evidence for her evil, or call her an adult, or give her responsibility for the inner workings of the Empire any more than I would give Thog responsibility for the inner workings of the Linear Guild, or suggest that her species makes her worse than Thog rather than her stupid cruelty making her Tarquin's Thog analogue.)

(Also, as Sir Leorik noted a while ago, William Shakespeare got a lot of mileage out of characters who were both terrible people and tragic figures, from Richard III to Macbeth to whatshisname in King Lear--not Lear himself, though he arguably qualifies, the official villain, Edmund or something. The Empress of Blood isn't quite like them, because they were all brilliant; at least some of the tragedy in question related to wasted potential. But being evil doesn't automatically exclude her from being a tragic figure.)

[Angel Bob]

How do you figure? The courts were evil, but the bounty hunters were imprisoned for extorting the general, which we clearly saw them do. Just because the penalties were harsh doesn't mean they weren't guilty of the crimes they were accused of.

Ah, but that's not actually what they were charged with. The actual charges were due to the massive tavern brawl that they participated in. Under the laws, Gannji was entirely within the rights of his occupation to do so, so long as it was "related to an approved bounty".

However, this could only be legally proved with his bounty-hunter license papers, which Kilkil conveniently "lost" because Tarquin is a petty little prick. So while Gannji offending Tarquin was the actual cause of his conviction and imprisonment, it was not the legal cause.

...That said, this doesn't change the fact that the courts still have disproportionate punishment out the wazoo, as was proved with the "public urination" incident.

[zimmerwald1915]

You seem to want to apply the most charitable possible explanation for her involvement even where it's a particularly big stretch (rigor mortis? Come on, we know that's not what Tarquin meant). That's fine, I'm not going to do that. I see plenty of evidence here of her evil alignment.

I'm allowed to be charitable, yes?

[orrion]

She's stupid (and young) and she does what she's told.

Again, just like Lord Tyrinar the Responsible (except that he probably didn't eat humans--though I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to serve him grilled lizardfolk, and everyone who eats at one of Tarquin's feasts eats sapients). Maybe you would classify Lord Tyrinar as evil just as readily, but there's still less than no indication of "adult," none of "partially responsible for the atrocities of the Empire of Blood," and the phrasing "at least" indicates that it's theoretically possible she's completely responsible for them, which it really, really isn't. Kilkil does what Tarquin tells him, including sending people to a horrible death for annoying Tarquin, and almost certainly eats sapients whenever Tarquin holds a feast; he's officially Lawful Neutral.

Dragons cast as sorcerers; her low Intelligence would no more hamstring her spellcasting, were she old enough to cast, than Elan's low Intelligence hamstrings his.

(I think the Empress of Blood is probably evil in the same way Thog was/is; I just don't think we should overstate the evidence for her evil, or call her an adult, or give her responsibility for the inner workings of the Empire any more than I would give Thog responsibility for the inner workings of the Linear Guild.)

Heh, before your edit I was going to use Thog as an example of why the Empress was still evil.

Her being young MAY be a deterrent, but eventually doing enough evil deeds outweighs youth. The dragon is clearly old enough to make decisions by herself.. she just chooses not to think about them and defers them.

Regardless, nobody should be saying she is responsible for the inner workings. But she is contributing to the workings of the empire in general and she is evil.

[AKA_Bait]

She's stupid (and young) and she does what she's told.

Which may excuse her somewhat if this were a "does she deserve to die" issue. It's not. It's an alignment issue and a "does AKA_Bait have a reason to view her as tragic" issue.

Again, just like Lord Tyrinar the Responsible (except that he probably didn't eat humans--though I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to serve him grilled lizardfolk, and everyone who eats at one of Tarquin's feasts eats sapients). Maybe you would classify Lord Tyrinar as evil just as readily,

If I thought he was involved as much as the strip seems to indicate the Empress is, yes I would.

but there's still less than no indication of "adult,"

Dragons cast as sorcerers; her low Intelligence would no more hamstring her spellcasting, were she old enough to cast, than Elan's low Intelligence hamstrings his.

You got me there, at least in terms of dragon age categories. I jumped to the conclusion of adult because the Empress isn't living at home with a parent, like the baby black dragon was.

none of "partially responsible for the atrocities of the Empire of Blood," and the phrasing "at least" indicates that it's theoretically possible she's completely responsible for them, which it really, really isn't.

We can just disagree about that. I'm of the view that when you help found and nominally rule an evil empire you are "at least partially responsible for the atrocities of" that empire, even if you don't personally commit them.

I'm allowed to be charitable, yes?

Indeed, and I'm allowed not to be. We can respectfully disagree on the interpretation of those strips.

Edit to respond to edits:

(Also, as Sir Leorik noted a while ago, William Shakespeare got a lot of mileage out of characters who were both terrible people and tragic figures, from Richard III to Macbeth to whatshisname in King Lear--not Lear himself, though he arguably qualifies, the official villain, Edmund or something. The Empress of Blood isn't quite like them, because they were all brilliant; at least some of the tragedy in question related to wasted potential. But being evil doesn't automatically exclude her from being a tragic figure.)

Didn't get around to that one. First, tragic as it is used most of the time now means "something I should feel bad about." I don't feel bad for evil creatures that eat people.

Frankly, I don't think she fits the Classical and Shakespearean mode either. Those tragic figures always possessed some virtue we were shown and a downfall brought about by a personal flaw. I haven't seen any virtues ascribed to the Empress so far.

[Math_Mage]

Tyrinar's title proclaimed him bloody tyrant and the Empress had no reason to believe that was a lie. Indeed, I doubt anyone but Tarquin and Miron was privy to Tyrinar's thoughts on government.

That's why I said there's still a question of how much moral agency to attribute to EoB for that action. I don't include caveats as rhetorical flourishes to be ignored.

Oh, and he might have been dead at the time she ate him. The expression Tarquin referred to could have been due to rigor mortis.

...No. The semantic construction allows for it, but you know and I know that's not what happened, so let's not kid ourselves, okay?

[The Giant]

First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.

Second, I don't know where anyone is getting the idea that the Empress is young. I guess because the default red dragon gets spells as a juvenile? But she's an adult. Just an abnormally stupid adult, probably with too low a Charisma to cast sorcerer spells.

And third, she's not a non-sapient animal, so she doesn't get a pass on Evil actions due to low Intelligence. She kills people when they bore her or get in her way; she's Evil. The fact that she then eats them is neither here nor there.

[zimmerwald1915]

...No. The semantic construction allows for it, but you know and I know that's not what happened, so let's not kid ourselves, okay?

I'll thank you not to tell me what I know, particularly because the thrust of my posting on this topic is that there's room for doubt. I'm curious; why are you being so quick to condemn someone for murder when it has yet to be eastablished that she's killed anyone? As far as I know, the only casualty of the Empress' to date has been a chair.

EDIT: ninja'd by the Giant. I'd have acknowledged it earlier, but posting from a phone in a tunnel precluded it.

[Math_Mage]

I'll thank you not to tell me what I know, particularly because the thrust of my posting on this topic is that there's room for doubt. I'm curious; why are you being so quick to condemn someone for murder when it has yet to be eastablished that she's killed anyone? As far as I know, the only casualty of the Empress' to date has been a chair.

*looks up*
...Nah, you know what? I'll let that pass, too obvious.