Can the Fighter have a d12 Hit Die?

[thoroughlyS]

How unbalancing would it be to give the Fighter a d12 Hit Die? This includes upping Second Wind to a d12 as well. Would they become noticably superior to any other classes, in a way that they weren't already?

Would this make them tankier than a Barbarian or Moon Druid?

Would this increase their ability to stay in a fight for any longer than they already could?

[Fable Wright]

It's basically one more HP per level, or per healing surge. It's really not going to impact game balance that much and will often be unnoticeable.

The question is, why change it? Currently, the d12 hit die is the Barbarian's signature thing, along with its d12 axe. Why take something unique away from the Barbarian and give it to a class that already has a lot of love?

[Gastronomie]

It's basically one more HP per level, or per healing surge. It's really not going to impact game balance that much and will often be unnoticeable.

The question is, why change it? Currently, the d12 hit die is the Barbarian's signature thing, along with its d12 axe. Why take something unique away from the Barbarian and give it to a class that already has a lot of love?

Pretty much this. Wouldn't be noticeable, but no reason to do so.

[Jaycon356]

Eh, the way I see it, there's a whole racial ability of +1 health per level, I don't think it's the kind of thing to just give to the fighter, but mostly because the d10 does the job just fine.

[RPG_NPC]

Would be nice to have some use for my d12s

[R.Shackleford]

Would be nice to have some use for my d12s

I have d4s that are d12s with 1-4 three times.

The d12 is the best less than d20 for rolling.

[Vogonjeltz]

How unbalancing would it be to give the Fighter a d12 Hit Die? This includes upping Second Wind to a d12 as well. Would they become noticably superior to any other classes, in a way that they weren't already?

Would this make them tankier than a Barbarian or Moon Druid?

Would this increase their ability to stay in a fight for any longer than they already could?

The Barbarians d12 is to make up for not having a high AC, but having resistance while raging. So yeah, it would be noticeable. Druids aren't even in the running.

[AvatarVecna]

If another thread is any indication, Barbarians and Fighters are already too similar for some people.

[R.Shackleford]

If another thread is any indication, Barbarians and Fighters are already too similar for some people.

Spoiler: Epic 5 Fighter... Combine them all!

Show

Fighter
HD: d12
Saving Throws: Physical
Tools: One tool of your choice
Skills: Athletics or Acrobatics and two from any the Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue skill list.
Armor and Weapons: All weapons, armor, and shields. Anytime you can normally add your Dexterity modifier to AC you may replace it with your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.

Class Level	Class Features
1	Martial Archetype, Cunning Action
2	Offensive Fighting Style
3	Defensive Fighting Style
4	Extra Attack
5	Greater Fighting Style

Martial Archetype: Choose a more specific type of fighter that you represent. The choices are the Barbarian (Unarmored Defense), Ranger (Favored Enemy), Soldier (Fighter Superiority), or Thief (Expertise).

Barbarian (Unarmored Defense): While you are not wearing armor your AC is equal to 13 + Your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution Modifier. You may still benefit from using a shield.

Ranger (Favored Enemy): Beginning at 1st level, you have significant experience studying, tracking, hunting, and even talking to enemies that you have recently studied.

During a long rest choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.

You have advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma checks versus your current favored enemy.

Additionally you learn a number of additional languages equal to your proficiency bonus.

Soldier (Fighter Superiority): As a reaction when a creature starts it's turn within 30' of you, you may make an Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Insight) check to learn a creature’s current HP, CR, Total Level (if any), Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution score. Alternatively you may use this feature as a bonus action.

Thief (Expertise): You gain your proficiency bonus to your initiative roll. Additionally you gain a climb, jump, and swim speed equal to your normal speed.

Cunning Action

You gain the Quick Attack and two other Cunning Action features , once chosen these can't be changed.

• Quick Attack: As a bonus action you may make an attack with a weapon. This attack deals 1d4 base damage.
• Dash: As a Bonus Action you may use the Dash Action.
• Disengage: As a Bonus Action you may use the Disengage Action.
• Use an Object: As a Bonus Action you may take the Use an Item Action. Additionally you may use your thieves tools as a bonus action.
• Search: As a Bonus Action you may take the Search Action.

Offensive Fighting Style: You gain one of the following features. You can not change these features once it is chosen.

Horde Breaker
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.

Rage

In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as part of the attack action.

While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren’t wearing heavy armor:

• You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
• You may have advantage on Strength based weapon attacks, but enemies have advantage on attacks against you.
• When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to +2.
• If you are able to cast spells, you can’t cast them or concentrate on them while raging.

Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. Once you are out of rage you can not enter rage again until you finish a short or long rest.

Sneak Attack

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 2d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use weapon that doesn't have the heavy descriptor.

You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels.

Defensive Fighting Style

• Parry: As a reaction you may increase your AC or Reflex Save by your Proficiency Bonus against an attack or effect. If you do this in response to an attack you may choose to do this after you know if the attack would be a hit or a miss but you do not learn the exact number rolled.
• Uncanny Dodge: As a reaction you may take half damage from any one damage source.
• Resist Damage (Rage): While raging you are resistant to all damage except psychic.

Extra Attack: When you take the weapon attack action, you may make two weapon attacks instead of one.

Greater Fighting Style
You improve on your ability to use your offensive fighting style. You may choose any of the following features to compliment your stile.

Blind Fight: Beginning at 5th level, as long as you can smell or hear you don't take disadvantage on attacks for being blind and other creatures don't gain advantage on attacks against you for being blind.

Mindless Combatant: Beginning at 5th level, you can’t be charmed or frightened.

Slippery: Beginning at 5th level, you can't be restrained or grappled unless you choose to be.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not.

The poor unloved d12 could use some more spotlight too.

[R.Shackleford]

Sure, why not.

The poor unloved d12 could use some more spotlight too.

Someday I'll use a system that runs on d4's, d6's and d12's. Then I can use my d12's for all my rolls.

[2D8HP]

I am of two minds on this.
On the one hand Fighter is my favorite class to play and more hit points......
NO!
Stay strong!
ust resist the Sirens song!
Change is bad!
The old ways are best!
In the 1974 LBB's all classes had 1d6 hit points at first level.
With the '75 "alternative system" Fighting-men were raised to d8's (and Magic Users were dropped to d4's).
With the '78 AD&D PHB Fighters hit points were raised to d10's.
Now it's 10 plus or minus the CON modifier at first level!
When does hit point inflation stop!
Stand athwart the editions and say no more!

Well maybe just this once......

I am really, really impressed by your ability to turn everything into a "old D&D was better" statement. Here we have a thread about tolerance for racial fetishes, and somehow you still manage to make your point!

You're like this forums Cato the Elder.

I'm 'sarcastic, but not that sarcastic'

Carthago delenda est!

[gkathellar]

Spoiler: Epic 5 Fighter... Combine them all!

Show

Fighter
HD: d12
Saving Throws: Physical
Tools: One tool of your choice
Skills: Athletics or Acrobatics and two from any the Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue skill list.
Armor and Weapons: All weapons, armor, and shields. Anytime you can normally add your Dexterity modifier to AC you may replace it with your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.

Class Level	Class Features
1	Martial Archetype, Cunning Action
2	Offensive Fighting Style
3	Defensive Fighting Style
4	Extra Attack
5	Greater Fighting Style

Martial Archetype: Choose a more specific type of fighter that you represent. The choices are the Barbarian (Unarmored Defense), Ranger (Favored Enemy), Soldier (Fighter Superiority), or Thief (Expertise).

Barbarian (Unarmored Defense): While you are not wearing armor your AC is equal to 13 + Your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution Modifier. You may still benefit from using a shield.

Ranger (Favored Enemy): Beginning at 1st level, you have significant experience studying, tracking, hunting, and even talking to enemies that you have recently studied.

During a long rest choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.

You have advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma checks versus your current favored enemy.

Additionally you learn a number of additional languages equal to your proficiency bonus.

Soldier (Fighter Superiority): As a reaction when a creature starts it's turn within 30' of you, you may make an Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Insight) check to learn a creature’s current HP, CR, Total Level (if any), Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution score. Alternatively you may use this feature as a bonus action.

Thief (Expertise): You gain your proficiency bonus to your initiative roll. Additionally you gain a climb, jump, and swim speed equal to your normal speed.

Cunning Action

You gain the Quick Attack and two other Cunning Action features , once chosen these can't be changed.

• Quick Attack: As a bonus action you may make an attack with a weapon. This attack deals 1d4 base damage.
• Dash: As a Bonus Action you may use the Dash Action.
• Disengage: As a Bonus Action you may use the Disengage Action.
• Use an Object: As a Bonus Action you may take the Use an Item Action. Additionally you may use your thieves tools as a bonus action.
• Search: As a Bonus Action you may take the Search Action.

Offensive Fighting Style: You gain one of the following features. You can not change these features once it is chosen.

Horde Breaker
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.

Rage

In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as part of the attack action.

While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren’t wearing heavy armor:

• You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
• You may have advantage on Strength based weapon attacks, but enemies have advantage on attacks against you.
• When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to +2.
• If you are able to cast spells, you can’t cast them or concentrate on them while raging.

Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. Once you are out of rage you can not enter rage again until you finish a short or long rest.

Sneak Attack

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 2d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use weapon that doesn't have the heavy descriptor.

You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels.

Defensive Fighting Style

• Parry: As a reaction you may increase your AC or Reflex Save by your Proficiency Bonus against an attack or effect. If you do this in response to an attack you may choose to do this after you know if the attack would be a hit or a miss but you do not learn the exact number rolled.
• Uncanny Dodge: As a reaction you may take half damage from any one damage source.
• Resist Damage (Rage): While raging you are resistant to all damage except psychic.

Extra Attack: When you take the weapon attack action, you may make two weapon attacks instead of one.

Greater Fighting Style
You improve on your ability to use your offensive fighting style. You may choose any of the following features to compliment your stile.

Blind Fight: Beginning at 5th level, as long as you can smell or hear you don't take disadvantage on attacks for being blind and other creatures don't gain advantage on attacks against you for being blind.

Mindless Combatant: Beginning at 5th level, you can’t be charmed or frightened.

Slippery: Beginning at 5th level, you can't be restrained or grappled unless you choose to be.

Naw, ranger is a Rogue archetype, not a fighter.

[R.Shackleford]

Naw, ranger is a Rogue archetype, not a fighter.

Rogue is a Fighter type.

Or Fighter is a Rogue type.

Dude with weapons that kills things using tactics and martial abilities.

Either way, the 5e Rogue actually makes for a better Fighter than the Fighter.

VHuman Moderately Armored turns you into a pretty sweet armored warrior that doesn't have to raise their ability scores and could just take feats.


Edit

Personally I prefer calling all martial types Sellswords so that you can then give them their own fluff and specific typing. Soldier, Barbarians, Rogue, Ranger, or whatever.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's basically one more HP per level, or per healing surge. It's really not going to impact game balance that much and will often be unnoticeable.

The question is, why change it? Currently, the d12 hit die is the Barbarian's signature thing, along with its d12 axe. Why take something unique away from the Barbarian and give it to a class that already has a lot of love?

Agreed. It's a minor-verging-on-unnoticeable power-up, but doesn't seem like it has a whole lot of point. It also doesn't seem quite fitting-- the Barbarian is the wall of meat, while the Fighter is clearly meant to be the "skilled" fighting man here. If you want to give them a defensive boost (really quite unnecessary), why not trade the 6th level ASI for a version of Defensive Duelist that works with any weapon? That's probably an even smaller power boost, and still feels like a skilled fighting man.

[Theodoxus]

I'm thinking of adding a feat - tentatively named "Gladiator" which grants two things:

1) Access to a Fighting Style, chosen from Dueling, Two Weapon Fighting or Protection
2) Second Wind for 1d12+Con mod, recharge on a long rest.

This would allow Barbarians and Rogues access to weapon styles they'd profit from without having to dip fighter, while granting other martial classes access to lesser used styles if they so chose. The second wind I thought was nifty, as it's, on average, with a decent Con, equivalent to a 5th level fighter, but never improves beyond that (and would allow said fighter to have two, one recharging on a short, the other on a long rest.

But, more importantly, it lets anyone willing to spend a feat, have access to the allmighty d12!

[Foxhound438]

I am of two minds on this.
On the one hand Fighter is my favorite class to play and more hit points......
NO!
Stay strong!
ust resist the Sirens song!
Change is bad!
The old ways are best!
In the 1974 LBB's all classes had 1d6 hit points at first level.
With the '75 "alternative system" Fighting-men were raised to d8's (and Magic Users were dropped to d4's).
With the '78 AD&D PHB Fighters hit points were raised to d10's.
Now it's 10 plus or minus the CON modifier at first level!
When does hit point inflation stop!
Stand athwart the editions and say no more!

Well maybe just this once......

I'm 'sarcastic, but not that sarcastic'

Carthago delenda est!

and you had to roll for stats uphill both ways, through the rain and the snow

[AvatarVecna]

and you had to roll for stats uphill both ways, through the rain and the snow

3d6 six times in order, no rerolls, no rearranging. We're gonna run you through a dungeon where every threat is at least a few CR higher than the party, and if you're ever rolling the dice to deal with a trap, it means you've already screwed up, because you should've been able to solve the problem with creative item use and preparation.

[ZX6Rob]

3d6 six times in order, no rerolls, no rearranging. We're gonna run you through a dungeon where every threat is at least a few CR higher than the party, and if you're ever rolling the dice to deal with a trap, it means you've already screwed up, because you should've been able to solve the problem with creative item use and preparation.

"CR"? What's a "CR"? Back in my day, you just had monsters with hit dice! And you didn't have any of this "appropriate challenge" nonsense! If you stumbled into a room with forty-six orcs and a Cloud Giant at level 2, well bully for you! Hope you roll well on your surprise check and are prepared to beat feet, buck-o!

Did you make it all the way to level 17 without dying, only to get smashed by a failed save for a trap you didn't notice? TOO BAD! Start over at level one! What's that? "Starting gold?" "Basic equipment?" Why would I give you any of that nonsense?! You want a potion of invisibility, go yank it out of that green dragon's horde yourself!

Kids today, think they're entitled to everything now. When I was their age...

[thoroughlyS]

This thread is actually to settle an argument between my friend and me. I'm running a game, and the only reason I want to do it is for "symmetry". I think the actual Hit Dice spread is "uneven" in that there are 2 classes with d6s, 6 with d8s, 3 with d10s, and 1 with a d12. Based purely on preference, I would change it so that the spread was 2, 6, 2, and 2 respectively. This way, half of all classes have the "standard" Hit Die, while the remaining groups have a pair each which are thematically similar (Sorcerer and Wizard are squishy mages, Paladin and Ranger are gishes, and Barbarian and Fighter are physical powerhouses). I have not crunched any numbers, but I believe an average increase of 1 HP per level with an absolute maximum change of 40 HP at 20th level are inconsequential at every level of play.

My friend disagrees. They believe quite firmly that the game as a whole is balanced near-perfectly, insofar as the numbers work to establish a meta-game. Without crunching the numbers either, they feel that giving the Fighter a larger Hit Die would be a substantial enough boost that the Fighter can maintain its own niche roles in the party while become better at the Barbarian's niches than the Barbarian itself. If the change were made, there would be no reason to play a Barbarian.

I know that the playground is full of people who have strong opinions and arguments for what is and is not balanced, and have the numbers to back it up. From what has been posted so far, it seems like the majority of replies agree that the change would have a low impact on gameplay. However, a majority of responses also say that it is a change without reason, of which I am fully aware.

[Theodoxus]

This thread is actually to settle an argument between my friend and me. I'm running a game, and the only reason I want to do it is for "symmetry". I think the actual Hit Dice spread is "uneven" in that there are 2 classes with d6s, 6 with d8s, 3 with d10s, and 1 with a d12. Based purely on preference, I would change it so that the spread was 2, 6, 2, and 2 respectively. This way, half of all classes have the "standard" Hit Die, while the remaining groups have a pair each which are thematically similar (Sorcerer and Wizard are squishy mages, Paladin and Ranger are gishes, and Barbarian and Fighter are physical powerhouses). I have not crunched any numbers, but I believe an average increase of 1 HP per level with an absolute maximum change of 40 HP at 20th level are inconsequential at every level of play.

My friend disagrees. He believes quite firmly that the game as a whole is balanced near-perfectly, insofar as the numbers work to establish a meta-game. Without crunching the numbers either, he feels that giving the Fighter a larger Hit Die would be a substantial enough boost that the Fighter can maintain its own niche roles in the party while become better at the Barbarian's niches than the Barbarian itself. If the change were made, there would be no reason to play a Barbarian.

I know that the playground is full of people who have strong opinions and arguments for what is and is not balanced, and have the numbers to back it up. From what has been posted so far, it seems like the majority of replies agree that the change would have a low impact on gameplay. However, a majority of responses also say that it is a change without reason, of which I am fully aware.

If both Barbs and Fighters had d12, I'd MC more readily between them. As it is, I'll typically dip fighter for GWF or Defense to bolster offense or defensive capabilities, but don't go further into fighter due to loss of HP (especially true in 'max HP' games, but also for rolled HP with no mins).

I start a game with this change, let the players decide? I don't think it'll be detrimental to barbarians, they are still generally more tanky and deal more damage - two features that really requires some work for fighters to match (not to mention cheesy builds that are likewise available to Barbs, though not as readily, thanks to fewer ASIs)