The new general "Dominions 5" Thread

[tyckspoon]

EDIT: In the meanwhile, getting a feeling that Vermillion city doesn't get enough evolutions so was thinking about making some for the pikachu variants (heavy Raichu, Raichu Runner, flying Raichu, Raichu Thunderer). Anybody has an opinion on that?

Raichu Thunderer would be the most appropriate, I think, since that's basically what a normal evolved Raichu is compared to Pikachu anyways. Not sure the rest make a lot of sense either thematically or balance-wise.. heck, 'heavy Pikachu' is kind of weird, but being a functional nation in Dominions with literally nothing that has any Protection is really really hard, so I can forgive it for the sake of making the troops work

[deuterio12]

Pokemon 0.802

Spoiler: Changelog

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-Added bodytypes to pokemon, mostly will change a bit how they get afflictions.
-Added generic pokemon ranger scouts to all nations that couldn't get a basic 1 recruitment point stealthy commander.
-Turns out I was calculating resources wrong for cavalry units, should be fixed now.
-Added evolutions to shield and heavy pikachu and grimmer.
-Added evolution to pikachu thunderer.
-Pikachu militia will now evolve into normal pikachu.
-Pet Pikachu renamed to pikachu prime, +1 to all stats, can evolve to Raichu Prime too.
-Pewter city gets furs geodude, costs resources and +1 gold for some armor and no longer cold-blooded since cozy furs keep them warm.
-Rhyhorn was kinda too nerfed, mostly weaker than a regular minotaur (that's also cheaper), increased HP to 25, gets pierce/slash resistance like other rock pokemon instead of blunt, price reduced to 50 gp, Rhydon also buffed along the same ways.
-Fixed typos all around.
-Viridian city added! Besides the "standard" loadout they also include a lot of team rocket stuff, their pokemon all have chaos power and chaos recruit with lower recruitment point cost but need resources to represent team rocket's crazy experimentation and artificial methods of getting pokemon. Meanwhile team rocket's trainers cause unrest but also increase resource production. Viridian City can't build gyms (they do spend most of the game with theirs closed) but have access to some summoning sites from other nations. Plus varied magic at the cost of little depth.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. this is it. The big moment in the test game. If the comming fight is lost then Ermor will likely be overrun by vegatables.

Else.
Viridian town looks interesting enough.
Though a suggestion. For testing purpose, include a test-spell that summons all the special recruitment sites?
That would make it easier to evaluate those pokemon, without climbing to thaum 4.

[deuterio12]

Well.. this is it. The big moment in the test game. If the comming fight is lost then Ermor will likely be overrun by vegatables.

Implying they actually engage you and it's not some feint.

Else.
Viridian town looks interesting enough.

Woot!

Though a suggestion. For testing purpose, include a test-spell that summons all the special recruitment sites?
That would make it easier to evaluate those pokemon, without climbing to thaum 4.

It's probably easier for you to edit such parameters yourself, only need to change a few things.

Just open the .dm file with a text editor and ctrl+f the name of the spell(s) you want to tweak.

The relevant parameters you want are:

-The level of research is #researchlevel X, 0 means they start the game ready to cast.

-The level of magic needed to cast is #pathlevel 0 Y, just change the second number to 0 so they don't need any magic to cast.

-#fatiguecost set to 0 to remove gem cost.

-Remove any #onlygeosrc Z line to remove terrain requirements.

Save the .dm file and (re)start the game.

[lord_khaine]

Implying they actually engage you and it's not some feint.

It has been a dance back and forth. But i doubt it will continue.
Anything besides a big fight would likely be an advantage for me.

It's probably easier for you to edit such parameters yourself, only need to change a few things.

Just open the .dm file with a text editor and ctrl+f the name of the spell(s) you want to tweak.

The relevant parameters you want are:

-The level of research is #researchlevel X, 0 means they start the game ready to cast.

-The level of magic needed to cast is #pathlevel 0 Y, just change the second number to 0 so they don't need any magic to cast.

-#fatiguecost set to 0 to remove gem cost.

-Remove any #onlygeosrc Z line to remove terrain requirements.

Save the .dm file and (re)start the game.

Alright thanks for the quick guide on modding.

[deuterio12]

It has been a dance back and forth. But i doubt it will continue.
Anything besides a big fight would likely be an advantage for me.

Well Celadon city seems to be taking their time sending their turn so seems like they're hesitating about a decisive engagement I would say.

[lord_khaine]

Not because there were that much to think about. Except logistics i guess
Ermor is dead now. Crushed at every fort simultaneosly.
I then dont know if it was due to a mistake of tactics. I went with a dormant rainbow bless, to make my knights resistant to all elements.
But that strategy failed to what i suspect was a full scales build. And just then simply showing hordes and hordes of pokemon down south.

[deuterio12]

Now now you managed to break free one fort, it's right near our borders.

Also I think your rainbow should've been helping with the defense instead of searching sites.

Plus you may've dispersed your knights a bit too much, they were only ten or so at the critical battle.

You did manage to send some plants running so with some more power things may've turned out different.

Still Celadon did go full rush (they only started researching at all a couple turns agon) and that's bad news when one has a rainbow pretender.

Although tangelas probably need some nerf, at least their poisonous skin really did a number in the sacred knights stun-locking them. Also drop their protection to 10 at least.

[tyckspoon]

Although tangelas probably need some nerf, at least their poisonous skin really did a number in the sacred knights stun-locking them. Also drop their protection to 10 at least.

Cavalry are notoriously subject to effects like poison skin/coral barbs/fire shield - it's because of the Length 0 Hoof attack from the horse causing them to suffer full effect, and if the poison skin effect is a high enough value it'll punch right through a poison resist bless. Not sure that's 'needs a nerf' so much as 'working as intended' in that tangela *should* be a counter to cavalry because of that, although if you want a resist bless or poison-resist spells to be able to block it you could look at reducing the strength of the poison.

[lord_khaine]

Cavalry are notoriously subject to effects like poison skin/coral barbs/fire shield - it's because of the Length 0 Hoof attack from the horse causing them to suffer full effect, and if the poison skin effect is a high enough value it'll punch right through a poison resist bless. Not sure that's 'needs a nerf' so much as 'working as intended' in that tangela *should* be a counter to cavalry because of that, although if you want a resist bless or poison-resist spells to be able to block it you could look at reducing the strength of the poison.

There is that, as well as that the broad rainbow bless i designed to be more or less as generic as possible, doesnt really help much against the rest of the plant horde either.
Their Prot isnt high enough to survive the acid aoe attacks of the Oddish. Or for that matter the Weepinbell or Gloom who also have a razor leaf hit that goes straight though them.

As for my Rainbow, its limited how much he could contribute with my current level of research.
having him site search was actually quite a bit advantage, as that gave me a free citadel.

I also dont think that having a Rainbow Pretender did much difference here. It was a dormant god, so i could afford some scales.
And the bless did do a lot for expansion.

The issue is Celadon's freespawn monsters. I looked a little at the numbers. And they quickly go cracy.
Assuming 5 monsters per beauty, 2 beauty's recruited per turn from their capital. Then here by turn 18 they got around 1700 freespawn pokemon.
Thats from their capital alone. And not including what they directly recruit. Or that building more forts will lead to even more freespawn.
Case in point. At this stage Celadon's armies are about equal with every other nation combined.

[deuterio12]

Cavalry are notoriously subject to effects like poison skin/coral barbs/fire shield - it's because of the Length 0 Hoof attack from the horse causing them to suffer full effect, and if the poison skin effect is a high enough value it'll punch right through a poison resist bless. Not sure that's 'needs a nerf' so much as 'working as intended' in that tangela *should* be a counter to cavalry because of that, although if you want a resist bless or poison-resist spells to be able to block it you could look at reducing the strength of the poison.

Yeah, reducing the strength of the poison is the basic idea.

There is that, as well as that the broad rainbow bless i designed to be more or less as generic as possible, doesnt really help much against the rest of the plant horde either.
Their Prot isnt high enough to survive the acid aoe attacks of the Oddish. Or for that matter the Weepinbell or Gloom who also have a razor leaf hit that goes straight though them.

As for my Rainbow, its limited how much he could contribute with my current level of research.
having him site search was actually quite a bit advantage, as that gave me a free citadel.

I also dont think that having a Rainbow Pretender did much difference here. It was a dormant god, so i could afford some scales.
And the bless did do a lot for expansion.

The issue is Celadon's freespawn monsters. I looked a little at the numbers. And they quickly go cracy.
Assuming 5 monsters per beauty, 2 beauty's recruited per turn from their capital. Then here by turn 18 they got around 1700 freespawn pokemon.
Thats from their capital alone. And not including what they directly recruit. Or that building more forts will lead to even more freespawn.
Case in point. At this stage Celadon's armies are about equal with every other nation combined.

Counter-case-point, most other nations screwed up their expansion, with Fuschia in particular focusing in small elite armies of ekans and arboks, while I've been focusing on magnemites which are pretty expensive too (also building a mage corps).

Plus there's already nations like Sceleria and whatnot that can recruit priests that can mass-produce hordes of undeads at an exponential rate too, but Sceleria isn't exactly top tier.

Well I'll be engaging them shortly, and bringing my superior research to bear, let's see if I can live up to my words and leverage my superior research or if I'll be overrun by the plant hordes too.

Still I agree Celadon's freespawn beauties may need some nerf too, so brainstorming a couple suggestions:
-Make them sacred so they need a temple to recruit so you can't just drop a new basic fort to start pumping them out.
-Instead of their freespawn being passive, demand spending a turn so they can't be on the move while still freespawning.

[tyckspoon]

Plus there's already nations like Sceleria and whatnot that can recruit priests that can mass-produce hordes of undeads at an exponential rate too, but Sceleria isn't exactly top tier.

Sceleria is actually considered among the strongest MA nations in most of the Dominions communities I'm aware of. They combine Ermor's hordes of never ending disposable chaff bodies with having actual gold to buy mages instead of being restricted to however many your Death income can summon, and those mages make excellent communions with easy national access to some of the game's nastier battlefield wipe spells and buffs (2000+ Flying Mistform skeletons backed up by Wailing Winds, Rigor Mortis, and Winds of Death is .. not an easy thing to fight. And Sceleria can easily generate like five of those armies.)

[deuterio12]

Well main point stands, Sceleria is a vanilla nation with both recruitables and exponential growth freespawn. And I don't see much games going "Sceleria banned" so even if they're strong, they're not considered "omg OP unbeatable".

[lord_khaine]

counter-counter point.
What Scleria summons hordes and hordes of are easily cleared chaff, that priests or low encumberance troops can clear massive groups off.
Celadon meanwhile gets plants that you cant banish. And they are a -lot- more dangerous in large groups.

In part because they can leverage their numbers much better.
When facing a skeleton blob your soldier only needs to focus on the enemy right in front of him, even if the enemy formation is 6 ranks deep.
But its still just a 1-1 fight, even if he has to win it 6 times.

Here meanwhile, every member of the formation will contribute, so its all 6 layers of the Oddish blob that spits acid on the soldier in this example.
That turns it in effect into a 1-6 fight, thats followed by a 1-5 fight, and so on.
And thats discounting how the aoe attack of the Odish means that every attack against the guys besides you also hits you.
So its something like 1-18 in the initial exchange.
(for simplicity, this ignores that Odish are 5 to a square)

Then to make matters worse, the concentration of ranged firepower meants its not even all Soldiers who gets into melee.
And of those who do, if they are not poison resistant then they will quickly regret it.

[deuterio12]

counter-counter point.
What Scleria summons hordes and hordes of are easily cleared chaff, that priests or low encumberance troops can clear massive groups off.
Celadon meanwhile gets plants that you cant banish. And they are a -lot- more dangerous in large groups.

In part because they can leverage their numbers much better.
When facing a skeleton blob your soldier only needs to focus on the enemy right in front of him, even if the enemy formation is 6 ranks deep.
But its still just a 1-1 fight, even if he has to win it 6 times.

Here meanwhile, every member of the formation will contribute, so its all 6 layers of the Oddish blob that spits acid on the soldier in this example.
That turns it in effect into a 1-6 fight, thats followed by a 1-5 fight, and so on.
And thats discounting how the aoe attack of the Odish means that every attack against the guys besides you also hits you.
So its something like 1-18 in the initial exchange.
(for simplicity, this ignores that Odish are 5 to a square)

Then to make matters worse, the concentration of ranged firepower meants its not even all Soldiers who gets into melee.
And of those who do, if they are not poison resistant then they will quickly regret it.

Eeerr, now that you mention it I only now notice that oddishes are the most common freespawn when the melee-only tangelas were supposed to be that. So that was a pretty significant mistake on my part.

And I could make the freespawn beauties produce only tangelas (and needing to spend their turn action instead of being a passive automatic effect) so that way the freespawn can't blot out the sun with ranged attacks.

I was also thinking of reducing acid damage (would rather keept it as an aoo since it's that way in the original games). It's not armor negating nor piercing so decent armor does work against it.

Still you're underselling skeletons a bit here:
-Zero encumbrance so they never tire (while plant pokemon have encumbrance plus coldblood on top).
-Skeletons sport both poison and cold high resistance and although they are vulnerable to banishment, they're also immune to a lot of effects that can only affect living.
-Mindless means skeletons never rout and laugh at fear effects while plant pokemon panic.
-Size 2 allows for making longer lines. Skeleton hordes are great for stretching accross the battlefield and that way outflanking the enemy, either ganking the enemy corners or even slipping right through to hit enemy back.

[lord_khaine]

Making them only produce Tangela might help partially.
Though im still not entirely warm on any sort of exponential growth. Its kinda hard to balance.

Reducing the acid damage might also help a bit. But its also something in cautious about, since its EA.
There are are a lot of light armor nations that will get utterly shredded by this.

I dont think im underselling skeletons by far in this comparison though.
Yeah skeletons are encumberance 0, but thats less of an issue when they are unlikely to survive far enough though a combat for it to matter.
Plants meanwhile use ranged attacks, and so dont care about encumberance themselves before the enemy gets into melee.
Cold resistance is a nice perk, but of limited use in most battles. While the plants are also poison resistant.
And yeah being fearless is great. But if ranged fire devastate the opponent before they get into melee, then thats again less relevant.

In the end i dont think its possible to have viable freespawning pokemon be viable without nerfing that pokemon type into the ground.
Instead i propose making a nation specific N1H1 spell that creates a random spawning of those plant pokemon, for 1 nature gem.
And then make the beauties N1 H1.

[deuterio12]

Rituals demand labs and thus making that would kinda defeat the purpose of a beauty that can just grown her plant pokemon anywhere, in particular when every Pokémon nation already has Pokémon-summoning rituals anyway.

In the other hand Tangelas are supposed to be the "militia" unit for Celadon City, at 7 gold a pop, so if they feel so much better than skeletons, I'm completely open to suggestions about how to nerf them to the ground so they can be used as freespawn. They don't even have an evolution for this era at least.

So, less protection/morale/hp/defense/attack? Remove either the absorb or wrap attack?

As for acid I could reduce range too so oddishes can only get a volley or two before being closed in melee (or will need to weather enemy fire if against ranged troops).

[lord_khaine]

Rituals demand labs and thus making that would kinda defeat the purpose of a beauty that can just grown her plant pokemon anywhere, in particular when every Pokémon nation already has Pokémon-summoning rituals anyway.

Well.. the beauty would still have a purpose, as a growing specialist, if she had her own unique rituals that were more cost-effective.
In return for then not being much worth as a combat mage or a researcher.

In the other hand Tangelas are supposed to be the "militia" unit for Celadon City, at 7 gold a pop, so if they feel so much better than skeletons, I'm completely open to suggestions about how to nerf them to the ground so they can be used as freespawn. They don't even have an evolution for this era at least.

So, less protection/morale/hp/defense/attack? Remove either the absorb or wrap attack?

Well it almost feels like a shame to nerf them that harshly. But yes, just for a start, 10 attacks per square is likely a little to strong. perhaps also the poison skin.
Though im equally suspecting that in most cases, having freespawn militia will still be much stronger for a nation like Celadon, than skeletons are for Schleria.
Partly because Celadon have much stronger ranged units, who will shred just about anything less than blessed giants while they tangle with Tangelas.

As for acid I could reduce range too so oddishes can only get a volley or two before being closed in melee (or will need to weather enemy fire if against ranged troops).

Reduced range will likely do a lot to fix things.
Though im still concerned about if its something that makes Pokemon nations to strong in general.
Kinda why i think its a shame, i didnt get to fight a "normal" nation. Without freespawn shennanigans.

Else, a suggestion for making pokemon assasins slightly less abusive.
Give them negative patience score. Since loudly yelling "I CHALLENGE YOU!" should draw most bodyguards.

[deuterio12]

Well.. the beauty would still have a purpose, as a growing specialist, if she had her own unique rituals that were more cost-effective.
In return for then not being much worth as a combat mage or a researcher.

Maybe not for the beauty, but that sounds worth doing somewhere else. Most probably the pokémon bug nation when we get to it.

Unless you're suggesting each pokémon nation gets a crappy mage/priest that gets more efficient pokémon rituals. Pokémon breeder for everybody?

Well it almost feels like a shame to nerf them that harshly. But yes, just for a start, 10 attacks per square is likely a little to strong. perhaps also the poison skin.
Though im equally suspecting that in most cases, having freespawn militia will still be much stronger for a nation like Celadon, than skeletons are for Schleria.
Partly because Celadon have much stronger ranged units, who will shred just about anything less than blessed giants while they tangle with Tangelas.


Reduced range will likely do a lot to fix things.
Though im still concerned about if its something that makes Pokemon nations to strong in general.
Kinda why i think its a shame, i didnt get to fight a "normal" nation. Without freespawn shennanigans.

You had a window to rush other Pokémon nations.

Still I would prefer if each Pokémon nation has something a bit different mechanically. Numbers can be tweaked, I'll run test battles to check the power of oddish artillery screened by tangela walls more carefully. Could also increase the recruitment point of oddishes so that spamming them is plain harder or even add an hard recruitment limit.

Speaking of which Cerulean seems to have launched their own attack against Celadon, and I recall they having recruited some fishermen. Freespawn against freespawn fight!

Else, a suggestion for making pokemon assasins slightly less abusive.
Give them negative patience score. Since loudly yelling "I CHALLENGE YOU!" should draw most bodyguards.

Ooooh, that sounds like a great idea both crunch and fluffwise! -5 Patience for all Poké-assassins coming right up!

EDIT: So in some PMs with Celadon's player, he reports in a detail I had completely forgot: upkeep.

Sceleria's skeletons don't cost anything so you can afford to be defensive and just build them up forever until the moment is right to strike, while Celadon City's freespawn do cost gold and that piles up, forcing one to be agressive otherwise the economy gets choked.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe not for the beauty, but that sounds worth doing somewhere else. Most probably the pokémon bug nation when we get to it.

Unless you're suggesting each pokémon nation gets a crappy mage/priest that gets more efficient pokémon rituals. Pokémon breeder for everybody?

In this case it was mostly meant as a possible way to handle the uncontrolled growth of plant pokemon.
But you can of course reserve it for another nation instead if you feel its better suited there.

You had a window to rush other Pokémon nations.

Still I would prefer if each Pokémon nation has something a bit different mechanically. Numbers can be tweaked, I'll run test battles to check the power of oddish artillery screened by tangela walls more carefully. Could also increase the recruitment point of oddishes so that spamming them is plain harder or even add an hard recruitment limit.

Speaking of which Cerulean seems to have launched their own attack against Celadon, and I recall they having recruited some fishermen. Freespawn against freespawn fight!

Didnt really feel like a noteworthy window.
Yeah 0 i was busy expanding into all the free land i had around me.
It felt like getting involved in a war there would not gain me anything, and brought the risk of running into an expanding monster before i had researched a counter.
As a communion nation with a rainbow, my focus were on the mid-long game.

But its not even just Tangela's, Celadon has a ton of different pokemon's with ranged attacks. Who would all -love- blocking chaff.

As for cerulean, i recall that their fishermen mostly catch magic carp.
So i dont think they are that relevant.

But glad you like the idea of negative patience. I though it in part would help to balance out how pokemon commanders by default have 1-3 bodyguards on them at all times.
Fighting a pokemon nation would be much less painful if you could settle for giving all battle mages 1-2 bodyguards. Instead of 3-5.

EDIT: So in some PMs with Celadon's player, he reports in a detail I had completely forgot: upkeep.

Sceleria's skeletons don't cost anything so you can afford to be defensive and just build them up forever until the moment is right to strike, while Celadon City's freespawn do cost gold and that piles up, forcing one to be agressive otherwise the economy gets choked.

I dont know if its that big of a minus to be forced to either invest in economy scales. Or else be forced to play agressively.
As it is now Celadon took its first rival out during the middle of year 1. Had it been just a little more patient, or a little more diplomatic,
then it could have diggested Ermor in peace without a coalation forming against it.

I mean.. it does sound a bit like a first world problem?
Oh noes! i got all these free soldiers i dont know what to do with?
Go away! shoo! your expensive.. migrate into someone elses land!
Ah.. you took the land.. and are now multiplying there as well.. ??

[deuterio12]

Didnt really feel like a noteworthy window.
Yeah 0 i was busy expanding into all the free land i had around me.
It felt like getting involved in a war there would not gain me anything, and brought the risk of running into an expanding monster before i had researched a counter.
As a communion nation with a rainbow, my focus were on the mid-long game.

But its not even just Tangela's, Celadon has a ton of different pokemon's with ranged attacks. Who would all -love- blocking chaff.

Well by that standard Scleria's communions also love skeleton chaff holding the line while they set up and start raining magic death.

Plus after tangelas lose their absorb attack, they'll struggle to hurt anything with half-decent armor, while skeletons still hit as hard as regular soldiers (and will never be repelled), thus can kill a fair amount of stuff themselves.

As for cerulean, i recall that their fishermen mostly catch magic carp.
So i dont think they are that relevant.

Magikarps are still 10 HP/10 protection so still make a nice wall even if they can't fight back, and the fisherman's second most common catch are goldeens which can spam supersonic. Plus statistically eventually some of those magikarps will evolve into Gyarados.

I dont know if its that big of a minus to be forced to either invest in economy scales. Or else be forced to play agressively.
As it is now Celadon took its first rival out during the middle of year 1. Had it been just a little more patient, or a little more diplomatic,
then it could have diggested Ermor in peace without a coalation forming against it.

I mean.. it does sound a bit like a first world problem?
Oh noes! i got all these free soldiers i dont know what to do with?
Go away! shoo! your expensive.. migrate into someone elses land!
Ah.. you took the land.. and are now multiplying there as well.. ??

Celadon were second if not first in most graphs, a coalition was pretty inevitable.

The main question was wherever me or them would be the first target of a coalition. But their freeupkeepspawn forced them to play their hand first by invading Ermor and paint themselves as a target, allowing Vermillion City to be seen as the lesser evil a savior.

Contrast to MA Ermor, the freespawn nation. They can be taken out, in particular if ganked early game. But often MA Ermor can stay under the radar going "if you attack me first it won't be worth your trouble" until they properly set up a nice death gem income, research key death spells and a massive undead army then jump into somebody else's war. But a Celadon City that starts spamming Beauty Xs however will be forced to play agressively, which is a significant disadvantage diplomacy-wise. And diplomacy is pretty important in any FFA dominions match.

[Manticoran]

Well by that standard Scleria's communions also love skeleton chaff holding the line while they set up and start raining magic death.

Plus after tangelas lose their absorb attack, they'll struggle to hurt anything with half-decent armor, while skeletons still hit as hard as regular soldiers (and will never be repelled), thus can kill a fair amount of stuff themselves.


Magikarps are still 10 HP/10 protection so still make a nice wall even if they can't fight back, and the fisherman's second most common catch are goldeens which can spam supersonic. Plus statistically eventually some of those magikarps will evolve into Gyarados.




Celadon were second if not first in most graphs, a coalition was pretty inevitable.

The main question was wherever me or them would be the first target of a coalition. But their freeupkeepspawn forced them to play their hand first by invading Ermor and paint themselves as a target, allowing Vermillion City to be seen as the lesser evil a savior.

Contrast to MA Ermor, the freespawn nation. They can be taken out, in particular if ganked early game. But often MA Ermor can stay under the radar going "if you attack me first it won't be worth your trouble" until they properly set up a nice death gem income, research key death spells and a massive undead army then jump into somebody else's war. But a Celadon City that starts spamming Beauty Xs however will be forced to play agressively, which is a significant disadvantage diplomacy-wise. And diplomacy is pretty important in any FFA dominions match.

A note here that your experience with ma ermor is vastly different than mine, where I usually see them jumped on by every single neighbor immediately upon expansion finishing.

[tyckspoon]

A note here that your experience with ma ermor is vastly different than mine, where I usually see them jumped on by every single neighbor immediately upon expansion finishing.

Depends on experience/diplomatic talent of the players in the game, I suspect. Nobody wants to have to deal with MA Ermor, it's a thankless grind for not a lot of reward. So if you have people who also understand that MA Ermor needs to be removed, you all agree to share that pain and get it over with. If only one person wants to do it, they're probably not going to go in on it because then you have one person stuck in a grindy war burning their strength while everybody else just goes 'Yeah, thanks' and develops much stronger positions - better to just let Ermor be cancer in their own borders as long as they aren't aggressing and work on your own expansion and spend your might on wars that will actually gain you something other than dead lands and Death gems.

[lord_khaine]

Well by that standard Scleria's communions also love skeleton chaff holding the line while they set up and start raining magic death.

Plus after tangelas lose their absorb attack, they'll struggle to hurt anything with half-decent armor, while skeletons still hit as hard as regular soldiers (and will never be repelled), thus can kill a fair amount of stuff themselves.

The Key difference here is that Scleria need to pause their monster spawning to train mages and research magic.
While Celadon get their heavy ranged support as a unit, not a mage.

And Tangela will still be able to grind even heavily armored units down with constrict, who does AN damage.
Especially if they fall asleep due to poison skin.

Magikarps are still 10 HP/10 protection so still make a nice wall even if they can't fight back, and the fisherman's second most common catch are goldeens which can spam supersonic. Plus statistically eventually some of those magikarps will evolve into Gyarados.

At the same time, Magikarps 1 defence means they are actually an awfull wall. And they are utterly harmless with attack 1 and st 1.
Not to mention, they desert, so its even hard to actually mass them.
How many of them to do need to get 1 Gyrados?

Celadon were second if not first in most graphs, a coalition was pretty inevitable.

The main question was wherever me or them would be the first target of a coalition. But their freeupkeepspawn forced them to play their hand first by invading Ermor and paint themselves as a target, allowing Vermillion City to be seen as the lesser evil a savior.

Most games play with graphs disabled. I dont think information based on them should be used to judge balance.

Contrast to MA Ermor, the freespawn nation. They can be taken out, in particular if ganked early game. But often MA Ermor can stay under the radar going "if you attack me first it won't be worth your trouble" until they properly set up a nice death gem income, research key death spells and a massive undead army then jump into somebody else's war. But a Celadon City that starts spamming Beauty Xs however will be forced to play agressively, which is a significant disadvantage diplomacy-wise. And diplomacy is pretty important in any FFA dominions match.

MA Ermor is meanwhile a completely different nation. I dont think they are a viable base of comparison.

[deuterio12]

Depends on experience/diplomatic talent of the players in the game, I suspect. Nobody wants to have to deal with MA Ermor, it's a thankless grind for not a lot of reward. So if you have people who also understand that MA Ermor needs to be removed, you all agree to share that pain and get it over with. If only one person wants to do it, they're probably not going to go in on it because then you have one person stuck in a grindy war burning their strength while everybody else just goes 'Yeah, thanks' and develops much stronger positions - better to just let Ermor be cancer in their own borders as long as they aren't aggressing and work on your own expansion and spend your might on wars that will actually gain you something other than dead lands and Death gems.

Yeah, I usually play with a significant number of backstabbing greedy players so good luck forming a significantly sized coalition willing to take out MA Ermor for the greater good.

The Key difference here is that Scleria need to pause their monster spawning to train mages and research magic.
While Celadon get their heavy ranged support as a unit, not a mage.

And Tangela will still be able to grind even heavily armored units down with constrict, who does AN damage.
Especially if they fall asleep due to poison skin.

1 armor negating damage. Capped. It'll take 10 hits for a tangela to kill an average soldier even if they're taking a nap, skeletons will be more killy unless fighting troops so tough that they can completely shrugg off their attacks. And tangela's poisonskin will be nerfed too. Tangela's attack bonus can be nerfed to make them whiff their attacks more too.

Plus Sceleria doesn't need to stop training mages to get their monster spawning because their mages are also monster spawners. They can develop their research corps and turn them to making skeletons when needed and then back to research then to communions.

At the same time, Magikarps 1 defence means they are actually an awfull wall. And they are utterly harmless with attack 1 and st 1.

10 HP is still double of 5 HP Tangelas, particularly relevant if the other side is bringing ranged troops of their own to tear the other side's screen in which case defense/melee matter a lot less.

And sure, I can make Tangelas have 1 defense along 1 attack. At some point you'll have to admit they're too weak enough like rhyhorns ended up nerfed until even vanilla minotaurs were laughing at them.

If you're worried about the recruitable version becoming too weak, I can also keep the recruitable as is and make a separate "Green Tangela" with nerfed stats to be used as spawn.

Not to mention, they desert, so its even hard to actually mass them.
How many of them to do need to get 1 Gyrados?

Depends, not sure how many exp units get from being in a battle in which they don't kill anything. But when we're talking of potentially hundreds of magikarps spawning, some Gyarados are bound to come out.

Most games play with graphs disabled. I dont think information based on them should be used to judge balance.

Do they? I just went to check llamaserver and out of the first six games in the list, exactly half of them are playing with graphs on.

And even with graphs turned off, word gets around, people scout, the top dogs are identified often just as swiftly in no-graphs games. In particular when it's hordes of freeupkeepspawn pouring through somebody's borders, that's not exactly something subtle.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, I usually play with a significant number of backstabbing greedy players so good luck forming a significantly sized coalition willing to take out MA Ermor for the greater good.

Guess im kinda lucky there. Since its a moderatly fixed group, then there isnt to much backstabbing.
Just an excessive amount of stabbing. And in the last game they managed to push up a coalition of every other nation to stop a Yomi grown to big.
But that was perhaps because said nation were in danger of winning.

1 armor negating damage. Capped. It'll take 10 hits for a tangela to kill an average soldier even if they're taking a nap, skeletons will be more killy unless fighting troops so tough that they can completely shrugg off their attacks. And tangela's poisonskin will be nerfed too. Tangela's attack bonus can be nerfed to make them whiff their attacks more too.

Plus Sceleria doesn't need to stop training mages to get their monster spawning because their mages are also monster spawners. They can develop their research corps and turn them to making skeletons when needed and then back to research then to communions.

My knights found the 1 point of AN damage quite nasty. In part because number of attacks wore down defence. And in part because the attack ignored shields.

And yes their mages are spawners. Though i believe the most effective spawners.
The one most people uses, are the cultists.

10 HP is still double of 5 HP Tangelas, particularly relevant if the other side is bringing ranged troops of their own to tear the other side's screen in which case defense/melee matter a lot less.

And sure, I can make Tangelas have 1 defense along 1 attack. At some point you'll have to admit they're too weak enough like rhyhorns ended up nerfed until even vanilla minotaurs were laughing at them.

If you're worried about the recruitable version becoming too weak, I can also keep the recruitable as is and make a separate "Green Tangela" with nerfed stats to be used as spawn.

Well yeah, at some point you reach the level of Magic Carp, who happens to be weak enough to be more or less useless.
Those i suspect are actually a risk who can contribute to faster HP rout.

A less dangerous green tangela might improve things. But im still cautious about freespawning being a good idea, for nations with such heavy firepower.
Case in point, made another attempt to free a fort. And i think 1-2 soldiers actually made it to the enemy line.

Depends, not sure how many exp units get from being in a battle in which they don't kill anything. But when we're talking of potentially hundreds of magikarps spawning, some Gyarados are bound to come out.

You get as i recall 4 xp from surviving a battle.
But all the same i doubt its enough on its own. It is kinda rare for anything but elite troops or archers to survive that much fighting.
And there are added attrition from desertion.

Do they? I just went to check llamaserver and out of the first six games in the list, exactly half of them are playing with graphs on.

And even with graphs turned off, word gets around, people scout, the top dogs are identified often just as swiftly in no-graphs games. In particular when it's hordes of freeupkeepspawn pouring through somebody's borders, that's not exactly something subtle.

A lot of those games seemed kinda stuck though. I am surprised. Everyone else i know plays without those graphs.
In part because its sometimes not quite as blatant just how far ahead someone are.

[deuterio12]

Guess im kinda lucky there. Since its a moderatly fixed group, then there isnt to much backstabbing.
Just an excessive amount of stabbing. And in the last game they managed to push up a coalition of every other nation to stop a Yomi grown to big.
But that was perhaps because said nation were in danger of winning.

"Yomi has become too dangerous, we must unite against them" isn't the sort of thing you hear everyday but I guess every nation can get their moment in the sun.

My knights found the 1 point of AN damage quite nasty. In part because number of attacks wore down defence. And in part because the attack ignored shields.

I think it was more of the stun poison skin meaning the knights were putting themselves to sleep pretty fast. In particular because cavalry suffers less reduced defence from multiple attacks. Reminder to test nerfed tangelas against knights.

And yes their mages are spawners. Though i believe the most effective spawners.
The one most people uses, are the cultists.

Fair, the cultists are easier to spam themselves. But Sceleria still wants their communions and those can help with the skeleton mass-production when needed.

Well yeah, at some point you reach the level of Magic Carp, who happens to be weak enough to be more or less useless.
Those i suspect are actually a risk who can contribute to faster HP rout.


A less dangerous green tangela might improve things. But im still cautious about freespawning being a good idea, for nations with such heavy firepower.
Case in point, made another attempt to free a fort. And i think 1-2 soldiers actually made it to the enemy line.

I saw that one, but then it was like only 40 troops of yours charging an army of 80 and half of those were evolved glooms so the odds were stacked pretty badly against you.

However I would like to point out to your final Ermor defense where 5 augurs with 11 assorted troop chaff managed to take out 106 plant Pokemon. Just by spamming fireflies, the most basic fire spell. Sure the game only credits like 36 of those kills to the augurs, but thing is a lot of the plant pokemon caught fire and burned to death, which doesn't count as a kill but is still another unit down. Each augur thus took out some 20 plant Pokémon with less a dozen chaff tanking. With the most basic fire evocation spell.

If you had researched some evocation and conjuration (or just had more augurs), handed some fire gems to the augurs so they could fire power-» fireball, who knows what they could've accomplished?

You get as i recall 4 xp from surviving a battle.
But all the same i doubt its enough on its own. It is kinda rare for anything but elite troops or archers to survive that much fighting.
And there are added attrition from desertion.

Yes there's desertion, but at 4 XP per battle plus 1 Xp per turn that means 10 turns of war for magikarps to evolve. And as suggested earlier one can always set them to bodyguard. If one rushed fisherman out of the gate to go with an expansion party it's possible to get those gyarados in the first year.

Mind you I had multiple games with even frontline troops reach 100+ experience after long campaign, in particular when it's chasing down enemy armies.

A lot of those games seemed kinda stuck though. I am surprised. Everyone else i know plays without those graphs.
In part because its sometimes not quite as blatant just how far ahead someone are.

It varies from group to group but there's plenty of graph supporters out there. In particular I've met several players who consider them a great equalizer since it makes it harder to lie about the game's situation to manipulate others (did I mention I play a lot with greedy backstabbers? That includes a lot of scheming).

However I'm holding back in the (dishonorable) backstabbing this game so I'm finally charging at Celadon City now that our NAP has officially ended while they're busy with Cerulean in the other side.

[lord_khaine]

"Yomi has become too dangerous, we must unite against them" isn't the sort of thing you hear everyday but I guess every nation can get their moment in the sun.

They are not as such bad. Dai Oni can be really hard to deal with early if you lack the correct paths.
In this case it turned into "Yomi is a pain to deal with now, lets start by dealing with Hellheim who is a massive pain in general"
And that turned into "whoops.. now Yomi ate a chunk of Ur and Lanka, better do something" but by then it was to late.

I think it was more of the stun poison skin meaning the knights were putting themselves to sleep pretty fast. In particular because cavalry suffers less reduced defence from multiple attacks. Reminder to test nerfed tangelas against knights.

It did likely help that the tangela's had 2 attacks each as well.

I saw that one, but then it was like only 40 troops of yours charging an army of 80 and half of those were evolved glooms so the odds were stacked pretty badly against you.

However I would like to point out to your final Ermor defense where 5 augurs with 11 assorted troop chaff managed to take out 106 plant Pokemon. Just by spamming fireflies, the most basic fire spell. Sure the game only credits like 36 of those kills to the augurs, but thing is a lot of the plant pokemon caught fire and burned to death, which doesn't count as a kill but is still another unit down. Each augur thus took out some 20 plant Pokémon with less a dozen chaff tanking. With the most basic fire evocation spell.

If you had researched some evocation and conjuration (or just had more augurs), handed some fire gems to the augurs so they could fire power-» fireball, who knows what they could've accomplished?

Yeah.. normally when its a 2 to 1 fight you dont expect to win directly. But you do expect to at least do some damage.
In this case my army was obliterated without inflicting any sort of attrition.

The capital case meanwhile was a bit special. Here the walls created a bottleneck, because a small handful of pokemon moved in to shoot at the mages from max range, while blocking the majority of the army from doing anything.
Thats the sort of setup that will happen once. Before the Enemy general learns to script his stuff for castle attacks.

Yes there's desertion, but at 4 XP per battle plus 1 Xp per turn that means 10 turns of war for magikarps to evolve. And as suggested earlier one can always set them to bodyguard. If one rushed fisherman out of the gate to go with an expansion party it's possible to get those gyarados in the first year.

Mind you I had multiple games with even frontline troops reach 100+ experience after long campaign, in particular when it's chasing down enemy armies.

In that case its simpler just to buy a handful of magiccarp, give them as bodyguard, and then hope they will both survive and not desert your commander before they evolve.
And in those game you mentioned, then it sounds like you were already winning there. So a handful of Gyrados would not matter, except in making you win more.

That of course again doesnt matter on the matter at hand.
That Celedon is currently quite broken from its freespawn.

[deuterio12]

They are not as such bad. Dai Oni can be really hard to deal with early if you lack the correct paths.
In this case it turned into "Yomi is a pain to deal with now, lets start by dealing with Hellheim who is a massive pain in general"
And that turned into "whoops.. now Yomi ate a chunk of Ur and Lanka, better do something" but by then it was to late.

Dai Onis are good yes, but with the addition of slow-to-recruit that really cut their potential

So was that game in dom5 or dom4? Because Yomi got a pretty big overhaul in between but I haven't got the chance to see them in action yet.

Yeah.. normally when its a 2 to 1 fight you dont expect to win directly. But you do expect to at least do some damage.
In this case my army was obliterated without inflicting any sort of attrition.

Evolved glooms are meant to be significantly stronger than basic troops so that was more of a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. And numeric superiority becomes a lot more significant when facing ranged troops. Like facing illithids, you need extra bodies to soak their shots.

The capital case meanwhile was a bit special. Here the walls created a bottleneck, because a small handful of pokemon moved in to shoot at the mages from max range, while blocking the majority of the army from doing anything.
Thats the sort of setup that will happen once. Before the Enemy general learns to script his stuff for castle attacks.

Heh, castle assaults are the kind of scenario where I've seen plenty of veterans struggle, since most battles are in open fields then an actual terrain bottleneck screws the AI movement.

But main point is that plant pokemon burn good. Doubly because they don't really want to take cold domain but heat scales make them burn better.

In that case its simpler just to buy a handful of magiccarp, give them as bodyguard, and then hope they will both survive and not desert your commander before they evolve.
And in those game you mentioned, then it sounds like you were already winning there. So a handful of Gyrados would not matter, except in making you win more.

Why buy magikarps when you can get them as freespawn plus extras as blockers?

And winning more matters quite a bit in FFA since taking down an opponent doesn't grant you victory. You need to take them out and have stuff left to take on the next. There is such thing as phyrric victories in dominions, so emerging with some extra Gyarados out of a war is quite the significant advantage.

That of course again doesnt matter on the matter at hand.
That Celedon is currently quite broken from its freespawn.

Well we're trying to figure out how broken they are and how much nerf they need. Plus even if they did knock you out but they also completely ditched their own research for over a year. And I also made the mistake decided to just sit and watch by the sidelines to see how you fared 1x1 when in any other game I would've backstabbed Celadon right away. Now I would like to see how they face against a magic force like a fully operational storm star.

Speaking of which crashing into Celadon's lands but no big battles yet. Should happen next turn. Arc Armageddon himself is at the vanguard having jumped out of the water right into a celadon fort two provinces away. Man I love how dom5 removed the limitation of non-flying troops only being able to attack adjacent provinces.

[lord_khaine]

Dai Onis are good yes, but with the addition of slow-to-recruit that really cut their potential

So was that game in dom5 or dom4? Because Yomi got a pretty big overhaul in between but I haven't got the chance to see them in action yet.

Well.. Dai Oni are a late game SC chassis. Not making them StR would leave them broken.
As it were, smacking a regen bless on them and hitting alt 3 is enough to expand into even barbarian hordes.
And their overhaul were actually relevant. Bakemono is nasty now with SoG.

Evolved glooms are meant to be significantly stronger than basic troops so that was more of a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. And numeric superiority becomes a lot more significant when facing ranged troops. Like facing illithids, you need extra bodies to soak their shots.

It is then still a massive advantage. Since it means you wont suffer attrition unless facing a force at least close to equal to yours.

Heh, castle assaults are the kind of scenario where I've seen plenty of veterans struggle, since most battles are in open fields then an actual terrain bottleneck screws the AI movement.

But main point is that plant pokemon burn good. Doubly because they don't really want to take cold domain but heat scales make them burn better.

They likely do. Problem is i cant use fire elementals against them.
Fire storm would likely roast them good. But thats kinda far ahead.
And i doubted i would be able to do enough damage with fireballs to hordes of that size.
Not with the number of mages i had available. Well not besides in a castle bottleneck.

Why buy magikarps when you can get them as freespawn plus extras as blockers?

And winning more matters quite a bit in FFA since taking down an opponent doesn't grant you victory. You need to take them out and have stuff left to take on the next. There is such thing as phyrric victories in dominions, so emerging with some extra Gyarados out of a war is quite the significant advantage.

Because it saves you a castle recruitment turn?
And i still doubt its extra enough to make a significant change in the grand sceme of things.
Especially considering both how unlikely it is, and how large a investment of time and effort it takes.

Well we're trying to figure out how broken they are and how much nerf they need. Plus even if they did knock you out but they also completely ditched their own research for over a year. And I also made the mistake decided to just sit and watch by the sidelines to see how you fared 1x1 when in any other game I would've backstabbed Celadon right away. Now I would like to see how they face against a magic force like a fully operational storm star.

Speaking of which crashing into Celadon's lands but no big battles yet. Should happen next turn. Arc Armageddon himself is at the vanguard having jumped out of the water right into a celadon fort two provinces away. Man I love how dom5 removed the limitation of non-flying troops only being able to attack adjacent provinces.

Well yes the research bit is something they can likely catch up on swiftly, now that they have 2 fresh forts, and a chance to take 3 more.
And it was not a mistake. It is as such the only relevant way to get good comparison data on how much stronger a Pokemon nation is compared to a average human nation (crushing it utterly).
Since a normal game swings a lot, its this one thats an outlier in its large skill disparity. Normally you should have had your hands full with your own neighboors.
Though i am curious now. If your storm star crushed Celadon, then its likely a sign of that being even more in need of a nerf :P

Else, as i recall, now its also two against one though, that does mean your not facing the full green hordes alone.
And i newer spotted your god, what was it, a Magnetron thingy? had guessed you went with an expander from how large you were.