How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

[TheWombatOfDoom]

First things first: This is an on going project I've been working on for a long time. These are not game mechanics. They are setting mechanics, that may one day come together to form a game. Right now I'm hashing out the system without regard for how things might work within a game, and instead am letting the creative process happen, and let the game form around it. Any or all of this is subject to change as I/we progress in brainstorming, so feel free to contradict the OP, or ask me questions on the setting as needed.

So, in my setting world, three mechanics make it go round - Magic, Fate and Luck. Today we're focusing on Luck. If you're interested in the Magic mechanics, go here and for Fate mechanics, go here. Fate is still being worked on, and Magic is completed, so this is the last system to be worked on. They have influenced this system, and this system certainly might influence them!

So without further delay-

Luck

Luck is currently in the brainstorming phase, so I'll give the facts and see if anyone has any ideas based on those things.

• Luck is one of three forces in the setting. It represents the life cycle, adaption, evolution, and all living things (creatures, bacteria, plants, so on).
• Dragons are the children of Luck. They mainly have become what they are through Luck's blessing. They have the ability to constantly adapt, quicker than others, and some of their features only can happen because of Luck, such as certain species of dragons that have achieved flight.
• Dragons also can manipulate the force of luck, similar to how the Elvori can manipulate Fate, and the Ancients can manipulate Magic.
• Healing a creature is a common feature of this power.
• There are 12 kinds of dragons, all customly created by myself, and are dragons that have adapted to various climates and areas. They do not follow the Dragons from D & D what-so-ever.
• The force of Luck doesn't always do good things for the dragons. If the dragons over-populate, they would start seriously affecting the habitat, so diseases and other animals might evolve that dampen their population.

The question is, what else can the dragons do with this power!

I'm not positive. I was considering allowing them to change their form, similar to how some D & D dragons can Polymorph.

Perhaps manpulating chance can be another thing. Like the ones that fly have evolved enough that they are close to achieving flight, but still aren't quite physically there (because certain physical properties prevent it). Luck might allow them to be lucky enough to achieve it, or some such.

Also, despite dragons having adapted to different areas, some dragons aren't sentient. These dragons don't use Luck the same way the others who are sentient might. However, I'd like to see if we can keep how each sentient dragon uses Luck similar, while having perhaps a specialty incorporated within each species.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Dragon descriptions until moved up to OP.

---

3

The Dragons - The Children of Luck



Dragon Characteristics:Some dragons are sentient, and others are savage. Some sentient dragons become savage, giving into their wild natures, or embracing them. Dragons are characteristically quick thinking and highly adaptive. As a whole, Dragons have been known to be quite social with most of the other races, and the sentient ones have their own cities, culture, language. A few hundred years ago, after the Great War of the Ancients, most Dragons retired from the rest of the world, and stay within their homelands - Draeden. However, some do wander, and others are exiled. It is those Dragons that rest of the world sees, and have given the Dragons a harsher light than they deserve.

Dragons are semi-coldblooded, and each has a specialized way to maintain proper temperatures. This is mostly thanks to their connection with Luck, which allow Dragons to evolve faster than most animals to accomidate their habitat, which is evidenced by the expansive amount of dragon species that exist in Aldain. Most Dragons appear somewhat humanoid, but several species do not share these characteristics. Dragons have a Syrinx, which allow them to have a full range of sounds. This allows them to communicate to other races or animals (so long as they care to learn the pertaining language), while still allowing them to communicate to other Dragons in a common tongue racial tongue. Additionally, Dragons communicate to their own species in a third, private language.

All kinds of Dragon species lay eggs, and mothers develop a medullary bone when time comes to lay, to assist them in the process. The hatching time varies per species, as well as developmental and physical characteristics. Most Dragons have a highly keratinized skin, and two sets of lungs. It is popularly believed that all Dragons breathe fire, but in actuality, only a rare few species have the ability.

Wind Dragon

Spoiler

Show

Many believe the Wind Dragon to be the only kind of dragon. Since it is capable of full on flight, it is mobile enough to reach other lands, and so, is the most sighted. As such, most Dragons are depicted in stories and illustrations as to appear like a Wind Dragon, which is largely incorrect. A Wind Dragon has two arms, two legs, and two wings, making it a six limbed creature. It has an elongated neck, as well as an elongated tail which parts at the very end in a verticle "Y". On each side of the "Y", a taught, wing-like flap of spans tip to a small section of the tail, which the Dragon uses in assistance for flight manuvers. A Wind Dragon's wings are highly vascularized, which allow it to heat its body like giant solar panels. Thick tendons and bracing muscles run down the length of a Wind's back to assist the wings in supporting the weight of the body. The wings are also supported by finger bones similar to the wings of a bat. Three larger finger bones run along the wing, while two smaller fingers span along the top, and are assumed useless. The wings start at the shoulders, and end halfway down the tail of the Wind Dragon.

To counter-act the Wind Dragon's size, thicker skin, and wing muscles, it's body has developed certain characteristics. For instance, the Wind Dragon has an organ attached to its secondary lungs. This organ produces a chemical that heats when mixed with oxygen and causes a lighter than air gas to be produced. The lighter than air gas fills the second lung chamber, and gives the dragon extra lift. This combined with a lighter bone structure within tail and possibly other places allows the Dragon its lift. The lighter than air gas can be breathed out of these lungs to allow it to get less lift. Wind Dragons also have "flint teeth" at the back of its jaw it can rub together, which creates sparks. This feature ignites the gas as it's expelled, creating a stream of flame. The Dragon bends back its tongue to block the flame from traveling down it's throat. This technique has been used for attracting a mate, in self defense, to attack, or as a scare tactic.

Shadow Dragons - 6 Limbed, Breathe fire, Nocturnal, highly migratory, fly, eyes and color adapted for night, double lung with chemical that produces lighter than air gas, heating system in skin from same chemical that produces lighter than air gas. Medium in size.

Sea Dragons (sea serpent-esque)- 3 sets of fins (akin to 6 limbs), Serpent-like, undulates to swim, spines along back - between which are guiding fins, dual blowhole at top of head, water to air adjusting eyes, double lungs, Protocercal tail. Larger in size.

Water Dragons - 4 Limbed, front hands have fins attached at back of wrist, and feet are webbed, Large dorsal-esque fin attached to back by two bones (acts similar to a sail above surface, as well as to absorb sun for heating purposes), these two bones are able to be dislocated so that the sail can collapse, double lungs, protocercal tail, able to travel on land clumsily. Medium in size.

River Dragons - 4 Limbed, powerful front arms to assist in swimming, smaller back legs to assist while on land, monocercal tail for swimming, has barbles extending from back of the skull for manuvering tight areas or for sensing prey, double lung, short neck, land and water capable. Small in size.

Ice Dragons - 4 Limbed, powerful arms and legs, breathe frost (actually breathe fire, but due to cold temperatures comes out as a frost/steam), heating system in skin from same chemical that produces lighter than air gas, icicles grow on it due to warm skin. Medium in size.

Cliff Dragons (wyvern-esque) - 4 Limbed, front limbs are wings with claw on top for latching, strong rear legs for landing, hooked talon like feet, narrow nose and skull, angled ridges along back, single lung, light body. Small in size.

Forest Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, gliding flap of skin between sides and inside of arm (similar to flying squirrels), prehensile tail which ends in tuft of hair, omnivore, no horns, single lung, light body. Small in size.

Land Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, no wings, long bristles that run along back that allow it to blend in with tall grass, can travel at fast speeds for short amounts of time, double lung. Medium in size.

Earth Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, no wings, symbiotic relationship with a fungus that grows along back (looks mossy, almost like dreadlocks), clubbed tail, single lung. Large in size.

Sand Dragons - 6 Limbed, three strong sets of arms/legs it uses to dig, serpent-esque form, skin in spiral patterned ridges along body used for spiraling through sand as it burrows, single lung. Large in size.

Glass Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, skin can changes color for themoregulation/camoflage/attracting a mate, generally lives in warmer climates, breathes fire, double lung. Small in size.

	4 Limbs	6 Limbs		Water Based	Land Based	Air Based		Biome
Cliff Dragon	x					x		Mountains/Bluffs
Earth Dragon	x				x			Plains/Rocky Areas
Forest Dragon	x					x		Forested Areas
Glass Dragon	x				x			Deserts
Ice Dragon	x				x			Tundras
Land Dragon	x				x			Plains
River Dragon	x			x				Freshwater Areas
Sand Dragon		x			x			Desert
Sea Dragon		x		x				Oceans
Shadow Dragon		x				x		Dark Areas
Water Dragon	x			x				Fresh and Salt Water
Wind Dragon		x				x		Mountains

[Veklim]

Mainly posting to tag this thread right from the get-go, but also to mention a brief outline for one or two thoughts I already had.

1. Some Dragons, under exactly the right atmospheric and meteorological conditions may achieve flight, but they fly whenever they wish... This is done by them manipulating luck so that whenever they DO wish to fly, the precise conditions required to do so just happen to arrive in their locality, regardless of the conditions mere moments before take-off. This would make flying Dragon territory a rather weather-erratic environment, where a storm can literally cut itself in two, just to allow a passing Dragon some room, and where two flying Dragons can seriously interrupt each other, just by deliberately flying too close to the other to allow both the correct conditions for flight. This could be REALLY fun.

2. Luck is more tangible than Fate and more readily believed than Magic, and so we must be careful how powerful any singular implementation may go with this force. I would suggest that instead of breaking any particular physical laws, it merely allows the most/least desired conditions and circumstances to spring forth at critical moments, leaving a Dragon less obviously powerful in their use of Luck, and more seemingly charmed. Walking through a deadly maze of swinging razor-edged traps without gaining a scratch for instance, not because they have done something obviously unusual, amazing or unnatural, but simply because everywhere they stepped 'just happened' to be free of peril at that particular moment.

I'm thinking Luck will be both more readily usable in any situation, and yet less visibly obvious in it's use. Thinking there will be good luck and bad luck (to correspond with positive and negative Fate) and there will be little luck and grand luck (to correspond with immediate and ultimate Fate).

[SamBurke]

1. Some Dragons, under exactly the right atmospheric and meteorological conditions may achieve flight, but they fly whenever they wish... This is done by them manipulating luck so that whenever they DO wish to fly, the precise conditions required to do so just happen to arrive in their locality, regardless of the conditions mere moments before take-off. This would make flying Dragon territory a rather weather-erratic environment, where a storm can literally cut itself in two, just to allow a passing Dragon some room, and where two flying Dragons can seriously interrupt each other, just by deliberately flying too close to the other to allow both the correct conditions for flight. This could be REALLY fun.

This seems to be a really good way of looking at it... how would it appear, physically? Would it be manifested from their minds?

2. Luck is more tangible than Fate and more readily believed than Magic, and so we must be careful how powerful any singular implementation may go with this force. I would suggest that instead of breaking any particular physical laws, it merely allows the most/least desired conditions and circumstances to spring forth at critical moments, leaving a Dragon less obviously powerful in their use of Luck, and more seemingly charmed. Walking through a deadly maze of swinging razor-edged traps without gaining a scratch for instance, not because they have done something obviously unusual, amazing or unnatural, but simply because everywhere they stepped 'just happened' to be free of peril at that particular moment.

Hm. This too seems very logical, and quite cool.

I vote for it!

[Hanuman]

Escaflowne's zone of absolute fortune may be relevant, check out that series.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Mainly posting to tag this thread right from the get-go, but also to mention a brief outline for one or two thoughts I already had.

1. Some Dragons, under exactly the right atmospheric and meteorological conditions may achieve flight, but they fly whenever they wish... This is done by them manipulating luck so that whenever they DO wish to fly, the precise conditions required to do so just happen to arrive in their locality, regardless of the conditions mere moments before take-off. This would make flying Dragon territory a rather weather-erratic environment, where a storm can literally cut itself in two, just to allow a passing Dragon some room, and where two flying Dragons can seriously interrupt each other, just by deliberately flying too close to the other to allow both the correct conditions for flight. This could be REALLY fun.

I agree with this being a neat and interesting, and had considered this way before Fate was really substantiated. A hang up, however, is the fact that for a dragon to affect the world, wouldn't that be interacting with Fate instead of Luck, per the constituents of the forces? How do we resolve that? Especially since whenever someone mentioned "living" in the Fate thread, I'd respond with "That's Luck". So in turn, I need to have a hard nose here too. *grumbles* Since this is the last of the three systems, I know its also going to be the hardest. It's getting the most rules already in place.

2. Luck is more tangible than Fate and more readily believed than Magic, and so we must be careful how powerful any singular implementation may go with this force.

What do you refer to in saying that Luck is more tangible. I'd say that Luck is less tangible than Fate, but more readily believed in than Magic. Mostly because the world is more readily available to interact with since one...relies on it for everything. Ooo! Nifty table time!

-	Tangibility	Concrete Belief
Magic	Intangible	Inconstant
Luck	Some	Some
Fate	Tangible	Constant

I'll likely meddle with this table some. For example, shouldn't Luck be the opposite of Fate, not Magic? Well, I guess in some ways, one could argue that Luck is Tangible, but not Constant in belief...Hmm...

I would suggest that instead of breaking any particular physical laws, it merely allows the most/least desired conditions and circumstances to spring forth at critical moments, leaving a Dragon less obviously powerful in their use of Luck, and more seemingly charmed. Walking through a deadly maze of swinging razor-edged traps without gaining a scratch for instance, not because they have done something obviously unusual, amazing or unnatural, but simply because everywhere they stepped 'just happened' to be free of peril at that particular moment.

So...are you familiar with the Xanth series? Piers Anthony? I don't want to ruin it for you if you haven't. Just something you say here is strikingly similar to something from the first book. If so, we should talk on. If not, its a quick read, and I'm sure you'd enjoy it as much as I did.

I'm thinking Luck will be both more readily usable in any situation, and yet less visibly obvious in it's use. Thinking there will be good luck and bad luck (to correspond with positive and negative Fate) and there will be little luck and grand luck (to correspond with immediate and ultimate Fate).

I think there can be obvious uses as well. Such as changing a living form in a more refined way than Magic can, or healing/harming. I also want to shy away from having positive or negative pertain to good and bad. Life and Death I think might be better ideas. "Good" and "Bad" might pertain to those two things, but in this case we have a less ego-centralized version. For example, death isn't bad. Without it, the world would undoubtedly end quite quickly. Life is something we as living creatures cling to, because we see death as the end of our existance, and our world. While over all, we're giving room for others to live, and providing the world with out nutrients and such as we decompose. I'd say both sides of the equation are equally important. As far as little and grand go, that's certainly something we can go with. I'd say if you look back at evolution, the jumps would be faster at times when Luck was in power.

In fact, I'd say the dragons needed to adapt to different areas to facilitate evolution of other creatures. Just like the Elvori try and keep the balance of the world cycle and nature, the Dragons try and keep the circle of life in check. Of course, that means they may not always be on someone's side...they could be all buddy buddy with a race or creature, until there is a significant explosion in their population, and then manipulate them to destroy themselves via war, attack them directly, or some other tactic.

Escaflowne's zone of absolute fortune may be relevant, check out that series.

And, I've never seen that show, but I'll certainly look for it for research purposes (as well as entertainment purposes).

[Hanuman]

And, I've never seen that show, but I'll certainly look for it for research purposes (as well as entertainment purposes).

It's a good show, it's not a long series but what I referenced happens late in the plot. In general it's kind of a fantasy world with Kellus' Gramarie tech, and because they use exoskeletons to fight they can afford to have more emphasis put on the weight and momentum of the exo's and their weapons, as most animes won't even touch mundane martial arts and body mechanics as if it were interesting or engaging on it's own.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

It's a good show, it's not a long series but what I referenced happens late in the plot. In general it's kind of a fantasy world with Kellus' Gramarie tech, and because they use exoskeletons to fight they can afford to have more emphasis put on the weight and momentum of the exo's and their weapons, as most animes won't even touch mundane martial arts and body mechanics as if it were interesting or engaging on it's own.

Started watching it. It starts off with a Dragon, and a Prince right?

[Veklim]

So, we need a way of differentiating Luck and Fate in a manner which doesn't step on toes, and we already know that they cannot be made to directly affect each other), so I have a possibly contorversial but potentially wonderful and simple idea...

If weather and geography are the domains of Fate (and rightly so), then the conditions for flight which a Dragon 'just happens upon' when needed must stem from Luck's domains. Life is cheif among these and so I propose that Dragons are actually symbiotic creatures. The Dragon basic model can't do much, but different types (and maybe even individuals) differentiate physically in capability by effecting sybiosis with various exotic flora and/or fauna. A flying Dragon could therefore have a specific type of bacteria in it's gut, bloodstream, specialised bladder, etc (any or all of these could work) which create lighter-than-air gases, increasing boyancy and therefore allowing their perhaps rather puny wings to bare them aloft. The same idea could allow for photosynthesis, breath weapons, burrowing claws stronger than steel, etc. For a REALLY oblique comparison, look at Mr. Lucas' midichlorines (or however it's spelled)...

Keeps the Luck element in, they'd still likely need rare, unusual, or normally highly toxic substances to develop and maintain these 'cultures' of symbionts, but it's certainly an idea which offers considerable scope. Having written this, I seem to remember you mentioning a Dragon you already had ideas for which used symbiont lifeforms so why not make it the core of all Dragon's Luck control mechanic..?

[Hanuman]

Started watching it. It starts off with a Dragon, and a Prince right?

http://www.animefreak.tv/watch/visio...ed-online-free

Subs or Dubs works fine for this one actually, matter of taste.

In terms of adding to the actual matter of luck, honestly I always liked how shadowrun did it, just make an alternate actionpoints system that grants you a passive +1 and burn it to add a 1d6, then make that +1 equivalent to 2 attribute points in terms of balance, that way you could say a human grants +1 luck instead of a free feat, as the action point passive would balance to replace the feat, then add another +1AP at level 1 and every 5 levels for all races.

So it would grants 1 luck at 1, 2 luck at 5, 3 luck at 10.

This would mean you gain minimum dead levels in terms of passive stat increases like attributes, feats and luck.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

So, we need a way of differentiating Luck and Fate in a manner which doesn't step on toes, and we already know that they cannot be made to directly affect each other), so I have a possibly contorversial but potentially wonderful and simple idea...

If weather and geography are the domains of Fate (and rightly so), then the conditions for flight which a Dragon 'just happens upon' when needed must stem from Luck's domains. Life is cheif among these and so I propose that Dragons are actually symbiotic creatures. The Dragon basic model can't do much, but different types (and maybe even individuals) differentiate physically in capability by effecting sybiosis with various exotic flora and/or fauna. A flying Dragon could therefore have a specific type of bacteria in it's gut, bloodstream, specialised bladder, etc (any or all of these could work) which create lighter-than-air gases, increasing boyancy and therefore allowing their perhaps rather puny wings to bare them aloft. The same idea could allow for photosynthesis, breath weapons, burrowing claws stronger than steel, etc. For a REALLY oblique comparison, look at Mr. Lucas' midichlorines (or however it's spelled)...

Keeps the Luck element in, they'd still likely need rare, unusual, or normally highly toxic substances to develop and maintain these 'cultures' of symbionts, but it's certainly an idea which offers considerable scope. Having written this, I seem to remember you mentioning a Dragon you already had ideas for which used symbiont lifeforms so why not make it the core of all Dragon's Luck control mechanic..?

This...is cool! You are correct, I do have a symbiotic relationship already with the Earth Dragons...hmmm. This is cool, but I guess the high and low of it, is I'm not sure. I actually already have a crap ton of genetical things that produce the chemical reaction/lighter than air gas in the Wind Dragon, that allows it to be able to fly, but I suppose I could alter that slightly to be a symbiotical thing, with some fiddling...maybe I should start posting my dragons......and then talk more about this. The genetical work for my dragons has been one of my closely guarded secrets...I guess it's time?

http://www.animefreak.tv/watch/visio...ed-online-free

Subs or Dubs works fine for this one actually, matter of taste.

In terms of adding to the actual matter of luck, honestly I always liked how shadowrun did it, just make an alternate actionpoints system that grants you a passive +1 and burn it to add a 1d6, then make that +1 equivalent to 2 attribute points in terms of balance, that way you could say a human grants +1 luck instead of a free feat, as the action point passive would balance to replace the feat, then add another +1AP at level 1 and every 5 levels for all races.

So it would grants 1 luck at 1, 2 luck at 5, 3 luck at 10.

This would mean you gain minimum dead levels in terms of passive stat increases like attributes, feats and luck.

Well, as I said in the first paragraph of the OP, I'm attemting to create this based on the setting before I focus on any game mechanics. I want the actual work to influence the game, not a game influence the work. So while I may at a farther time refer back to this, right now I'm looking at ways to manipulate and manifest luck in a balanced and not always all powerful way.

On another note, I'm on episode 7 or so and am enjoying it. There are some funny parallels within the context of the world, and the whole tarot card thing is an interesting thing, in and of itself.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Alright! I've started with the description of Dragons in general, and have branched out to one of the species - Wind Dragons. Enjoy!

--

Dragons

Some dragons are sentient, and others are savage. Some sentient dragons become savage, giving into their wild natures, or embracing them. Dragons are characteristically quick thinking and highly adaptive. As a whole, Dragons have been known to be quite social with most of the other races, and the sentient ones have their own cities, culture, language. A few hundred years ago, after the Great War of the Ancients, most Dragons retired from the rest of the world, and stay within their homelands - Draeden. However, some do wander, and others are exiled. It is those Dragons that rest of the world sees, and have given the Dragons a harsher light than they deserve.

Dragons are semi-coldblooded, and each has a specialized way to maintain proper temperatures. This is mostly thanks to their connection with Luck, which allow Dragons to evolve faster than most animals to accomidate their habitat, which is evidenced by the expansive amount of dragon species that exist in Aldain. Most Dragons appear somewhat humanoid, but several species do not share these characteristics. Dragons have a Syrinx, which allow them to have a full range of sounds. This allows them to communicate to other races or animals (so long as they care to learn the pertaining language), while still allowing them to communicate to other Dragons in a common tongue racial tongue. Additionally, Dragons communicate to their own species in a third, private language.

All kinds of Dragon species lay eggs, and mothers develop a medullary bone when time comes to lay, to assist them in the process. The hatching time varies per species, as well as developmental and physical characteristics. Most Dragons have a highly keratinized skin, and two sets of lungs. It is popularly believed that all Dragons breathe fire, but in actuality, only a rare few species have the ability.

Wind Dragons - Many believe the Wind Dragon to be the only kind of dragon. Since it is capable of full on flight, it is mobile enough to reach other lands, and so, is the most sighted. As such, most Dragons are depicted in stories and illustrations as to appear like a Wind Dragon, which is largely incorrect. A Wind Dragon has two arms, two legs, and two wings, making it a six limbed creature. It has an elongated neck, as well as an elongated tail which parts at the very end in a verticle "Y". On each side of the "Y", a taught, wing-like flap of spans tip to a small section of the tail, which the Dragon uses in assistance for flight manuvers. A Wind Dragon's wings are highly vascularized, which allow it to heat its body like giant solar panels. Thick tendons and bracing muscles run down the length of a Wind's back to assist the wings in supporting the weight of the body. The wings are also supported by finger bones similar to the wings of a bat. Three larger finger bones run along the wing, while two smaller fingers span along the top, and are assumed useless. The wings start at the shoulders, and end halfway down the tail of the Wind Dragon.

To counter-act the Wind Dragon's size, thicker skin, and wing muscles, it's body has developed certain characteristics. For instance, the Wind Dragon has an organ attached to its secondary lungs. This organ produces a chemical that heats when mixed with oxygen and causes a lighter than air gas to be produced. The lighter than air gas fills the second lung chamber, and gives the dragon extra lift. This combined with a lighter bone structure within tail and possibly other places allows the Dragon its lift. The lighter than air gas can be breathed out of these lungs to allow it to get less lift. Wind Dragons also have "flint teeth" at the back of its jaw it can rub together, which creates sparks. This feature ignites the gas as it's expelled, creating a stream of flame. The Dragon bends back its tongue to block the flame from traveling down it's throat. This technique has been used for attracting a mate, in self defense, to attack, or as a scare tactic.

[SamBurke]

Do like!

Especially the science-y portions of it; the Wind Dragon seems to have a lot of thought there.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Do like!

Especially the science-y portions of it; the Wind Dragon seems to have a lot of thought there.

Thanks! Anyone else?

[Amidus Drexel]

I do rather like it... although it seems like wind dragons couldn't breathe much fire while they're flying. (I don't have a problem with that, just pointing it out).

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I do rather like it... although it seems like wind dragons couldn't breathe much fire while they're flying. (I don't have a problem with that, just pointing it out).

True. If they breathed it in protection while on the ground, they wouldn't be able to fly initially. That's a good point. I like the drawback, personally.

One thing that's interesting is that in the Dragons, the wind is the "classical" dragon, and in my elves, the wind elves have the long pointed ears that are "customary" for elves.

[FlyingWhale]

Thanks! Anyone else?

I really like it too! Question, how humanoid are these guys? I've a friend who is really into the dragons as humanoids styles and would love to follow along.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I really like it too! Question, how humanoid are these guys? I've a friend who is really into the dragons as humanoids styles and would love to follow along.

Well, Dragons in my world have skin, not scales. The "scaley" parts come from it being highly keritinized (thick/hardened), and liney. I imagine its a similar to how the skin looks like on the back of the knuckles in some places (only harder like nails or somesuch), while other places appear to be smooth like the skin on the wings. Their arms and legs, shoulders and back are similar to humans in many species, though some look more like large lizards or serpents. I like to think that Dragons, Ancients (which are men basically) and Elves all share a common ancestor, though Elves and Ancients branched out much later than Dragons did. The progenitor of the Dragon species is an earlier version of the Sea Dragon, which today is a large, six finned, serpent-like Dragon. The six limbed aspect that many of the dragons have evolved from the six fins as it made its way on land. I'd say the ancestory of dragons and the other two main races came before it was an actual sea serpent...so like a cousin to humans, not a straight relative.

I don't think that Dragons can reproduce with other races, despite their humanoid structure and relation. Especially since their reproductive means are different, and dragons mostly are just...bigger. However, if I do make it that Dragons can shape change themselves or some sort, it could stand to reason that they might. I know it isn't what you asked, but I'm getting into a tangent, and its information I might as well mention. Dragons are not mammals, they are a reptile/bird/thing, similar to dinosaurs. However, they do have some mammalian qualities, and really, there are so many of them, they really aren't any of them - they're Dragons.

So, to get back to the original question - in the humanoid aspect - my dragons have similar bone structure for the arms and legs and torso (for the most part, remember, they have 2 sets of lungs), but they have lizard-esque tails, elongated necks, and different heads. Like humans, dragons are sentient, cultured, and highly intelligent. They're even more adaptive than humans, because they can evolve into their surroundings, and when that's too long - they adapt. Still, their culture and social structure is going to likely appear to be somewhat alien in some aspects, and familar in others. I'd love to have discussions in this regard, because I'm not too sure exactly how that might look myself in every aspect.

In other words, I'd love to have him, and you, on board for comments, ideas, or overall, to appeciate the Dragons!

[FlyingWhale]

Well, alrighty! I'd be happy to be on board, lemme link this to my buddy.

I guess, how long are the tails, about?

Are there certain species/bloodlines that have prehensile abilities?

What is their lifespan, typically?

Is it common to see one of these?

What are the attitudes of the common races to these Dragons?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well, alrighty! I'd be happy to be on board, lemme link this to my buddy.

I guess, how long are the tails, about?

Are there certain species/bloodlines that have prehensile abilities?

What is their lifespan, typically?

Is it common to see one of these?

What are the attitudes of the common races to these Dragons?

Great!

Yes. Forest dragons have prehensile tails. All dragons have thumbs.

Long. Not sure how long yet, but long. Especially since dragons adapt while they are still alive, longer life span is generally understandable. I'd say above or around 200.

See a dragon? Not as much anymore. Though, it really depends on the type. I'll describe that in each species. Like wind dragons are much more common.

Humans (which are different from ancients) view them as intelligent monsters, evil things. They are quite wrong. Though, humans think a lot of things that are wrong. The Elvori (elves) have a relationship with the main race, but contest exiles that terrorize the land. The Dragons used to be a prominant race in the realm, until they withdrew from the mainlands to their homeland.

[thethird]

After reading through the Fate thread some ideas suggestions on luck:

-Luck seems something like anti Fate, ala the Mule in Foundation it is probably harder to predict the fate of an individual the more lucky it is, since it can adapt and evolve depending on the changes of Fate.

-Drawing on the above magic is probably the bridge between Luck and Fate, combining just the right pinch of the two to do what is needed/beneficial to the user at that certain moment.

-So basically, Luck modifies people based on the environment (in an egoistical way, survival of the fittest/luckiest), Fate modifies environment based on people (in an altruistic way, survival of the world, the good of many), Magic mixes both.

---

-I would like to see a Luck based way of fighting, thinking randomly, doing things at gut feeling, reacting to the enemies/environment.

-Dragons are probably more energetic/adventurous than elves.

-Dragons should also have representations of the elements, I can see Earth dragons being lucky enough to find the treasures below, and being savvy merchants and filling the greedy dragon archetype.

-Fire dragons could be the classical wandering dragons, destroying and hoarding, just leaving themselves to where the luck takes them.

-Water dragons could be masters of self evolution, paraphrasing Bruce lee, Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle. You put water into a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water my, Dragon.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

After reading through the Fate thread some ideas suggestions on luck:

-Luck seems something like anti Fate, ala the Mule in Foundation it is probably harder to predict the fate of an individual the more lucky it is, since it can adapt and evolve depending on the changes of Fate.

-Drawing on the above magic is probably the bridge between Luck and Fate, combining just the right pinch of the two to do what is needed/beneficial to the user at that certain moment.

-So basically, Luck modifies people based on the environment (in an egoistical way, survival of the fittest/luckiest), Fate modifies environment based on people (in an altruistic way, survival of the world, the good of many), Magic mixes both.

Your correcting in all of you conjecture. Luck and Fate are polar forces, with Magic a combination and product of both. Luck could make something more unpredictable, but it also stands to reason that a general outcome could be predicted, just not individual events. This sort of lines up with Fate's prediction system well, so far as we have it.

Your third point puts it eloquently, and it thrills me that you picked this up from my systems with out me explicitly explaining it to you. Success!

-I would like to see a Luck based way of fighting, thinking randomly, doing things at gut feeling, reacting to the enemies/environment.

As in, Magic has offensive, Fate has offensive, Luck needs to figure out what it's offensive manipulations are? Yeah...still trying to figure that out. Perhaps manipulating and charming? So like, turning plants against someone, or causing animals to attack? Making things grow faster?

-Dragons are probably more energetic/adventurous than elves.

Probably. Though its not a general blanket, just more likely to be.

-Dragons should also have representations of the elements, I can see Earth dragons being lucky enough to find the treasures below, and being savvy merchants and filling the greedy dragon archetype.

I have 11 12 kinds of dragons - Wind, Shadow, Sea, Water, River, Earth, Land, Forest, Cliff, Ice, Glass, and Sand.

I don't have Fire...but I suppose the Shadow dragons are the closest to that. Perhaps I can swing this kind of flavor more. I'll keep it in mind as I am progressing. If something jumps out at you, let me know!

-Fire dragons could be the classical wandering dragons, destroying and hoarding, just leaving themselves to where the luck takes them.

Perhaps "fire" dragons could be the exiled ones that are left to wander the land. Hrm.

-Water dragons could be masters of self evolution, paraphrasing Bruce lee, Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle. You put water into a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water my, Dragon.

An interesting idea! I'll see what happens, though this seems more like something for the Water Elvori. Remember living things are made up of all 4 elements combined in complex ways.

Either way, I appreciate your responses! Nice to have new blood in the fold! Thank you for taking so much time and interest to read both this and Fate!

[thethird]

Your correcting in all of you conjecture. Luck and Fate are polar forces, with Magic a combination and product of both. Luck could make something more unpredictable, but it also stands to reason that a general outcome could be predicted, just not individual events. This sort of lines up with Fate's prediction system well, so far as we have it.

Your third point puts it eloquently, and it thrills me that you picked this up from my systems with out me explicitly explaining it to you. Success!

I have actually reflected on this lately, and I am creating something similar with my homebrew setting. So I felt really intrigued when I saw your work, I still need to read over magic though.

What I am doing is mostly limited to humans, who have both fate and luck. They study both fate (the interaction of oneself in the surroundings) and luck (the interaction of the surroundings on oneself) and normally choose to focus on one aspect or the other. At the moment it has elemental powers, but I am using a spirit/vestige/meldshape/pact/initiator mixture to represent power sources. People draw power from the representations/manifestations of spirits/concepts aligned towards luck or fate, depending on what they intend to do. This powers also have colors/alignments using the color wheel (no need to reinvent the wheel) as a base. And then there is a mathematical analysis of probabilities and manipulation both of fate and luck (and a "boring" rules heavy magic system).

For the matter I am using undead as the keepers of fate, they are creatures which fate is "tied" (by a sort of contract) and they cannot change it. And self aware constructs, they are fortunate creations, as the guardians of luck, they lack a soul and thus lack a fate of their own.

On the dragons thing it is nice to see them as a combination, I just wasn't picturing them as such. I thought that both luck and fate would be extremes being more or less "pure" and have the magic and its wielders be more of a mixture.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I have actually reflected on this lately, and I am creating something similar with my homebrew setting. So I felt really intrigued when I saw your work, I still need to read over magic though.

What I am doing is mostly limited to humans, who have both fate and luck. They study both fate (the interaction of oneself in the surroundings) and luck (the interaction of the surroundings on oneself) and normally choose to focus on one aspect or the other. At the moment it has elemental powers, but I am using a spirit/vestige/meldshape/pact/initiator mixture to represent power sources. People draw power from the representations/manifestations of spirits/concepts aligned towards luck or fate, depending on what they intend to do. This powers also have colors/alignments using the color wheel (no need to reinvent the wheel) as a base. And then there is a mathematical analysis of probabilities and manipulation both of fate and luck (and a "boring" rules heavy magic system).

For the matter I am using undead as the keepers of fate, they are creatures which fate is "tied" (by a sort of contract) and they cannot change it. And self aware constructs, they are fortunate creations, as the guardians of luck, they lack a soul and thus lack a fate of their own.

On the dragons thing it is nice to see them as a combination, I just wasn't picturing them as such. I thought that both luck and fate would be extremes being more or less "pure" and have the magic and its wielders be more of a mixture.

I've described this before to someone....let me see if I can find it...Ah! Here we are -

Luck is a complex combination of the 4 elements. So complex, the elvori, who can only attune to one or at most two, can't affect it. In fact, death is another side of life. Disease and bacteria and such are all part of luck as well. Things eating other things, over population causing death from starvation, decomposing, are all things attributed to life, and so - luck.

Think of Luck and Fate as two halves of a battery. Not the positive and negative sides, split the battery right down the middle length-wise. Alright. So both halves have ther four element. In fate - we have the elements as individuals working as a whole to create the way things work, a place for life to be able to be, and so on. Then the other half you have the four elements as one cohesive combination, resulting in various forms and walks of life. Both haves have a positive and negative side with the radicals. Fate you've seen, with Luck, its life and death. Neither are bad. They are both neccesary.

Fate and Luck rely on each other, but are also uninteractable. A Luck user cannot make the ground move, just as a Fate user could not blood bend. Magic, however, can affect both. Magic is the stuff inside the battery. The latent energy derived from the other two's existence.

As for your project - Its neat that someone else has thought of this too, and it might help you jive with my system. In the future I plan on creating a custom game system for this, and I'm creating all of this mostly for my novel setting. Its a world I've been working on for 13 years, literally half my life. I don't even know if undead would exist. If it does, it's a part of Luck, not Fate. Constructs would likely also be Luck. Fate could make a construct, just not animate them. Either way, I'd love to look at what you have!

[Veklim]

Ok, currently on my (not-so)smartphone so I'm not gonna do my normal rant (same as the fate post I just made), those will have to wait until there's time, however...lucky combat you say? Easy as pie...

Ask Cohen the barbarian (Discworld reference) how to survive countless brutal combats and he'll tell you simply 'don't be where the blades go'. This is at the heart of a dragon's defensive and offensive movements. Whenever you swing a sword or fire an arrow at a dragon, chances are they will somehow have moved in a seemingly random manner, resulting in glancing blows and near misses more often than not. Often it seems that the dragon has simply changed his mind as to where he was going, perfectly timing his random change of approach to the blow you aimed. The dragon, disturbingly, hardly seems to notice this fact and acts as if you must have missed on purpose, but the glimmer in his eyes betray a whimsy as they sweep past your's to watch a butterfly land on a flower, turning laconically from your rapier thrust to his torso with supernatural luck. As you lean forwards, having expected your perfect blow to have landed, you stumble just a moment and barely have time to see the claw as it sweeps past your throat and you feel the depth of the mortal wound. You fall to the floor in a perfect arc, watching the fatal claw as it gently picks the flower with the butterfly on it and swallows it whole with a gentle reverie. The dragon looks down at you with a melancholy sigh and whispers 'better luck next life stranger'...

Something like that I think.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Ok, currently on my (not-so)smartphone so I'm not gonna do my normal rant (same as the fate post I just made), those will have to wait until there's time, however...lucky combat you say? Easy as pie...

Ask Cohen the barbarian (Discworld reference) how to survive countless brutal combats and he'll tell you simply 'don't be where the blades go'. This is at the heart of a dragon's defensive and offensive movements. Whenever you swing a sword or fire an arrow at a dragon, chances are they will somehow have moved in a seemingly random manner, resulting in glancing blows and near misses more often than not. Often it seems that the dragon has simply changed his mind as to where he was going, perfectly timing his random change of approach to the blow you aimed. The dragon, disturbingly, hardly seems to notice this fact and acts as if you must have missed on purpose, but the glimmer in his eyes betray a whimsy as they sweep past your's to watch a butterfly land on a flower, turning laconically from your rapier thrust to his torso with supernatural luck. As you lean forwards, having expected your perfect blow to have landed, you stumble just a moment and barely have time to see the claw as it sweeps past your throat and you feel the depth of the mortal wound. You fall to the floor in a perfect arc, watching the fatal claw as it gently picks the flower with the butterfly on it and swallows it whole with a gentle reverie. The dragon looks down at you with a melancholy sigh and whispers 'better luck next life stranger'...

Something like that I think.

What's neat about this project in general is the variety that the topic of the Force's name regards. For example, with Fate, you have the subject of physics as the overlaying mechanic, while the power of foresight being an underlying (but powerful) ability. With Luck, I'd like it to be of a similar regard - the manipulation of chance being an ulitimate version of this Force, while more changing other living things or self change as the overlaying ability.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

So I had a thought. Dragons have the power to alter and adapt. What if we take that one step further, and say Dragons can change themselves to a certain degree tio suit their needs. For instance, a wind dragon has thick skin, six limbs, muscles, a long tail and long neck. It's going to be freaking heavy, even with the counteracting wings, hotter than air gas, and such. So what if they didn't have to exibit all of these characteristics all the time?

For instance - while in flight, their bones could be less dense, their skin not thick, their arms and legs weaker, and stronger wings. All of these to assist with flight. In this state, they'd be lighter, so wouldn't be as protected, and wouldn't be able to pounce very well because they are light. However, as they go to land, they could shift, strengthening their limbs, hardening their skin, condensing their bones. All these shifts could be along tracks they developed over time, and they can't over step them. So, a dragon couldn't turn into a human, because it's changing themselves too much. These alterations are tracked genetically and over time the race of the dragon evolves to exemplify the common changes, and that's how you get 12 species of dragons. Over time, the genetic code has altered enough for the dragons to have branched out to different species, and so on. In other words, dragons have manipulated their structure vastly more efficiently and quickly than any other race has evolved naturally.

Another idea I had was that dragons can also do this in other creatures, in a limited capacity. This power might fluctuate to be less limited during Ages of Luck, but for now we can talk about perhaps dragons engineering creatures to be a certain way. Just like the Elvori are caretakers of Fate, the Dragons might be caretakers of the life cycle. Perhaps they create creatures to attack races that are getting to populous. Perhaps they can bring back extinct creatures, or end a creature that has run its course.

Another idea I had was when altering a creature or themselves, they have to sacrifice something. Perhaps manipulating life means getting energy from life. So a dragon might alter themselves at the cost of the fauna around themselves, or even their own life force. If harvested correctly, it might just sap some energy, but for simple things like small fauna or small creatures, taking even a small amount of energy might mean killing it. So in order to manipulate a small creature, a dragon would not be able to pull the energy from the creature, but from somewhere else. A larger creature such as a bull might be able to stand a bit more. I picture a dragon wanting to cause a tree to grow faster by pulling life from the trees around it, as a large tree would likely shade and kill these trees anyway. Dragons therefore might farm. It might be why many became excellent hunters. If a dragon catches its prey, saps its energy to kill it, and then eats it, then that dragon is nourishing itself while also gaining energy to use. They might cultivate plants and animals that would allow them to draw from and feed from (if they're omnivores). How might this interpret into positive and negatives? I'm not sure. It seems life is exchanged, but death should not be able to be reversed (unless right after, medically), or reanimation to occur.

As for affecting chance/probability/luck, I really don't know how far I want to delve into that. It seems like something that has the potential to be overpowered, and very unlike most of the systems. Its hard to put any kind of cap on this power, and if I go by superstition, it might be delving too much into Magic's belief system, and if I go by foreseeing outcomes, it's too much like Fate's foresight. If it's a blind sort of trust, it’s hard to quantify. Like, the a dragon being charmed sounds nice and fluffy, but I don't see how we can dampen that. Perhaps it can be something like a dragon can shift itself to accommodate that particular encounter, such as becoming harder to hit, thicker skinned, more flexible, faster, so on, and as they get older, they can create more "charms".

[TheWombatOfDoom]

So, I'm working on some more posts for the types of dragons. In the mean time, the above post on the fundemental way dragons might work is still un responded to. Anyone have any thoughts?

[Veklim]

*arches fingers until they click* ........owww

To sum up my current understanding:

Dragons don't do luck in the 'standard' form, they have learnt to manipulate the very fabric of their own bodies, and even others' bodies given enough time, study and, well....luck.

In their own body, a Dragon can drastically change certain features and characteristics, aided largely by each species' unique set of symbiotic colonies (developed by their ancestors), as well as a hyper-developed set of organs and adaptations which vary wildly depending on the specific species in question (note to Wombat, could do with a brief rundown of each species' adaptations/abilities at some point, would help with identifying key themes and correlations ).

But this makes me think the whole counterpart thing to positive and negative fate shouldn't actually be counterparts at all, lemme babble a moment to see if it becomes coherant...

Dragons have domain over life and therefore death, since it is only another part of life, as they intimately understand it. There is no such thing as positive or negative life, there is only growth and decay, both of which are complex and vital parts of the force. Therefore we should refer back to your 2 halves of a battery analogy for a moment...imagine you rotate Luck's half by 90 degrees to create a second axis. Luck still has two 'poles' (growth and decay) but now they have no direct comparison to Fate's positive and negative poles. Both powers have 2 poles, and energy flows back and forth between them, but they are fundamentally differing concepts and must therefore be balanced in effect rather than philosophy. Magic has an unusual shape which sits between these 2 axes, and this is why it may mimic and approximate effects from either of the two forces, since it has shape on BOTH axes...

More to come when I'm not at lunch on a smartphone!!!!

[Veklim]

......and the rant continues......

Further to my earlier thoughts on the 'orientation' of Luck and Fate, I've had a tiny brainwave which would serve to explain the fluctuations of both forces...they rotate. Dunno if this is gonna be worth much, but it's certainly worth TRYING to explain, I'll continue with the battery halves image for this:

Fate is in power when the two halves are parallel (symbolising stability, law and convergence), since the directional uniformity of both forces allows for far more accurate predictions of living creatures as well as natural events.

Luck is in power when the two halves are perpendicular (symbolising erraticism, chaos and divergence), since life at this point is furthest away from the confines of Fate and therefore at it's most mutable.

There is an interesting effect which occurs here though, whereby the poles of each force will intersect in two phases. You would also gain 2 phases where either growth or decay are moving towards a 'natural' state of ascendency whereby the world itself tends towards one or the other;
The 1st phase is positive fate/growth - negative fate/decay
The 2nd phase is growth headed towards negative fate and decay headed towards positive fate
The 3rd phase is positive fate/decay - negative fate/growth
The 4th phase is growth headed towards positive fate and decay headed towards negative fate

You could use this as a basis to add 'force seasons' to the ebb and flow of Fate and Luck, giving different effects to each phase which affect the type of predictions made by Elvori, as well as giving a specific trend to a Dragon's control over growth or decay as it moves in and out of ascendency. We could (just for argument's sake) call these Summer (1st phase), Autumn (2nd phase), Winter (3rd phase) and Spring (4th phase). Whereas this could easily explain seasonal changes in a very real-world way, it could also represent a broader period of time giving way to the idea of more abstract epochs (kinda like warm periods and ice ages). Of course, the rotation need not be at a uniform rate, and a truly monumental change, event or power might speed up, stop or even reverse this motion...

This also means that Magic becomes the 'heat' generated by the friction of these two moving forces, and could display a fluctuation of it's own on a far more erratic scale (think tectonics with the sudden and rather unpredictable shifts which occur due to otherwise reasonably steady forces). This pressure could be maintained like a safety valve by Ancients, but of course with fewer and fewer Ancients all the time, the pressure might be building badly causing unfortunate consequences...


Brief musings on constructs and undead...
It has been well established that neither of these can be achieved by Fate OR Luck, but that magic may in some way be able to create either or both of these things. I like this on two (possibly mutually exclusive) levels...the first is that it gives magic something unique, an effect it can produce which cannot be bound by EITHER of the two primary forces of existence. This is a nice and simple option which leaves scope for storytelling. Secondly it opens up the possibility of constructs/undead (they could essentially be the same thing after all, just one of organic material and elemental exertion and one of inorganic material and lifeforce exertion) being created by a joint venture of Elvori AND Dragons, making them neutral arbiters in the (hopefully) never-ending cycles of Fate and Luck. This could also lead to some great storytelling, but offers up as many questions as it does answers...


I realise now that I've typed all this out, that it doesn't really fit in any of the 3 threads you have going...but it's here now so I'll leave it to you to place!

More coming on Dragons as my thoughts clarify and my time is more plentiful!