Bane of Commoners [help]

[toapat]

Ok, so the first thing to be warned about: This build requires that you obtain permission to use a Housecat that recieved an Intensified Awakening spell.


The build:

Mouskers, Lord Magus:
Starting Attributes: Str: 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 36, Wis 12, Cha 13

Cat 2: Weapon Finesse
Wizard 1: Precocious Apprentice*, Flaw, Flaw
Wizard 2: +1 Int
Archivist 1:
Archivist 2: Alternate Spell source
Mystic Theurge 1:
Mystic Theurge 2: +1 int
Mystic Theurge 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Mystic Theurge)**
Mystic Theurge 4:
Mystic Theurge 5:
Mystic Theurge 6: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to Hp), +1 int
Mystic Theurge 7:
Mystic Theurge 8:
Mystic Theurge 9: Keen Intellect (Int to Will)
Mystic Theurge 10: +1 int
Legacy Champion 1:
Legacy Champion 2: Feat
Legacy Champion 3:
Legacy Champion 4: +1 int
Legacy Champion 5: Epic Feat
Legacy Champion 6:


*Neither RHD of the Awakened Commonerslayer count as levels, im assuming this lets us take Precocious Apprentice so we can get our early entry pre-requisites.
**Mystic Theurge is a spellcasting class, and Practiced spellcaster does not specify it has to target a base spellcasting progression, letting us target our gestalt caster, instead of having to take it for both

Magic Items: Circlet of Intelligence +6, +5 Int tome, Cloak of Flight, Hand of the Mage, Handy Haversack

so, sugestions as to what his feats should be?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think you can use practiced spellcaster like that.

How does mouskers here carry his spell/prayer book? a lack of posable thumbs is quite a handicap.

Eschew materials seems like an obvious need, unless you're a cat with a bag hanging from his neck. Or is this a puss'n'boots situation?

[toapat]

I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think you can use practiced spellcaster like that.

How does mouskers here carry his spell/prayer book? a lack of posable thumbs is quite a handicap.

Eschew materials seems like an obvious need, unless you're a cat with a bag hanging from his neck. Or is this a puss'n'boots situation?

1: Nothing says you specifically cant
2: Handy Haversack and Hand of the mage, ill add those to the items list

[legomaster00156]

1: Nothing says you specifically cant
2: Handy Haversack and Hand of the mage, ill add those to the items list

"There's no rule against it" never, ever means that it is allowed. The game would be even MORE ridiculous if it did.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1: Nothing says you specifically cant
2: Handy Haversack and Hand of the mage, ill add those to the items list

That's not the strongest argument. In fact its generally the least effective argument for anything.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that it can't be read like that, but I highly doubt it. It depends on how you define "spellcasting class" and if the +1 to X casting PrC's are any kind of precedent on the matter, theurge and any other +1 to existing class PrC's are right out.

I'm not going to argue the point any further than this, but I'd bet money someone else will before too long.

[Tvtyrant]

I would make it a psionic character, personally. No need to worry about thumbs, and you don't have a book to cast out of (and the psionic cat is actually something of a trope).

I would allow a perpetual mage hand item count, personally, but it is in no way RAW.

[herrhauptmann]

I would make it a psionic character, personally. No need to worry about thumbs, and you don't have a book to cast out of (and the psionic cat is actually something of a trope).

I would allow a perpetual mage hand item count, personally, but it is in no way RAW.

Psionic cat is a trope? That's a new one to me.

Also:
1)Haversack still weighs 5lbs (or whatever), even if sized for an 8lb cat. Not that it matters, I can't see a cat being able to open/close/don a backpack on its own.
2)Use the correct (newer) version of spellcasting prodigy. PGtF, not the FRCS version. Much less desirable because it's not nearly as broken.
3)You can't take it at level 9, not when the feat says it must be taken at first level.
I could see an argument for a warrior that multiclasses and suddenly discovers that they're a prodigy, but not if they take prodigy after 3 levels of wizard. It'd ahve to be the same level they start taking their casting class.
4)I'd say you couldn't take Prodigy for MT, for similar reasons to why you can't pick up a level in sorcerer after MT-1, and shift into Ultimate Magus, advancing MT and Sorcerer.
MT doesn't have its own spellcasting progression.

[Twilightwyrm]

I'm still somewhat iffy on how everyone seems to be under the impression that house cats are the bane of commoners everywhere. If we assume your average commoner has 4-5 hp, and a house cat will only ever deal 1 damage w/o a crit, your average commoner is going to be more than capable of taking a cat down in one hit, verses 4-5 for the cat. So what gives?

[toapat]

That's not the strongest argument. In fact its generally the least effective argument for anything.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that it can't be read like that, but I highly doubt it. It depends on how you define "spellcasting class" and if the +1 to X casting PrC's are any kind of precedent on the matter, theurge and any other +1 to existing class PrC's are right out.

I'm not going to argue the point any further than this, but I'd bet money someone else will before too long.

too bad Wizards hasnt (as far as i know) errata'd it to be a little more specific in definition of Spellcasting class here. Id agree that if you have say, Cleric/Prestiege Paladin, you cant declare Prestiege paladin as your Spellcasting class

I would allow a perpetual mage hand item count, personally, but it is in no way RAW.

Hand of the Mage, SRD necklace of At Will magehand.

Psionic cat is a trope? That's a new one to me.

Also:
1)Haversack still weighs 5lbs (or whatever), even if sized for an 8lb cat. Not that it matters, I can't see a cat being able to open/close/don a backpack on its own.
2)Use the correct (newer) version of spellcasting prodigy. PGtF, not the FRCS version. Much less desirable because it's not nearly as broken.
3)You can't take it at level 9, not when the feat says it must be taken at first level.
I could see an argument for a warrior that multiclasses and suddenly discovers that they're a prodigy, but not if they take prodigy after 3 levels of wizard. It'd ahve to be the same level they start taking their casting class.
4)I'd say you couldn't take Prodigy for MT, for similar reasons to why you can't pick up a level in sorcerer after MT-1, and shift into Ultimate Magus, advancing MT and Sorcerer.
MT doesn't have its own spellcasting progression.

1: it is still the haversack
2: Not using that feat
3: Hes a lvl 1 character when he gains that lvl of wizard, RAW, Awaken doesnt add an LA, which is why he is an Awakened Housecat, because Awaken uses a roll of 3d6 for int, Intensify makes that 6d6 maximized.
4: you can use the Precocious apprentice trick to qualify. Ultimate magus specifies Arcane casting class. Mystic Theurge is an Arcane Divine casting class.

I'm still somewhat iffy on how everyone seems to be under the impression that house cats are the bane of commoners everywhere. If we assume your average commoner has 4-5 hp, and a house cat will only ever deal 1 damage w/o a crit, your average commoner is going to be more than capable of taking a cat down in one hit, verses 4-5 for the cat. So what gives?

because of these conditions:

A: the commoner is proficient with one simple weapon
B: the commoner has NPC WBL
C: the commoner has bad BAB and saves, as well as normal Array
D: the cat has 14 AC and innitive advantage, as well as all good saves
E: the cat has 2 HP vs a commoners 4
F: the cat has a +4 attack bonus and 3 attacks in a round

[TuggyNE]

I have to wonder, why go to all this trouble to be a commoner bane?

A: the commoner is proficient with one simple weapon
B: the commoner has NPC WBL
C: the commoner has bad BAB and saves, as well as normal Array
D: the cat has 14 AC and innitive advantage, as well as all good saves
E: the cat has 2 HP vs a commoners 4
F: the cat has a +4 attack bonus and 3 attacks in a round

Struck out the irrelevant considerations. The result is +4/+4/-1 for 1 point of damage (even on crits) against AC 10 vs. +0 for "enough" damage against AC 14. (Nearly all simple weapons have at least a 50% chance of taking the cat to 0 HP or below in one hit.) Note further that cats do not have Pounce. Considering all this, it's almost an even fight, which is bad enough; if the commoner can stay out of full attack range and snipe with a sling or light crossbow, the odds favor him.

Also, Handle Animal.

[Invader]

Thats like saying there's no specific rule that states fighters can't shoot laser beams out their eyes and WotC hasn't errata'd it, so WOOHOO LASERS FOR EVERYONE!!

[toapat]

Thats like saying there's no specific rule that states fighters can't shoot laser beams out their eyes and WotC hasn't errata'd it, so WOOHOO LASERS FOR EVERYONE!!

except where in the metamagic for that specifically says you can prepare Eyebeams is a metamagic

[Invader]

except where in the metamagic for that specifically says you can prepare Eyebeams is a metamagic

Lasers are different that eye beams, if they were the same the rules would say so...

[toapat]

Lasers are different that eye beams, if they were the same the rules would say so...

you can prepare searing ray as eyebeams. you can prepare most spells as eyebeams. you specifically said that the game didnt have rules for shooting people with lasers, it does.

I have to wonder, why go to all this trouble to be a commoner bane?

hes a housecat, its a joke on the fact that the standard CR 1 housecat encounter (2-5 cats) will typically ruin a commoner

[Arcanist]

except where in the metamagic for that specifically says you can prepare Eyebeams is a metamagic

Lets use a better example (as Faceroll would put it).

"The PHB doesn't say that Fighters get disintegrate at will at CL20 as a Free action at level one, so they must get it."

[Invader]

you can prepare searing ray as eyebeams. you can prepare most spells as eyebeams. you specifically said that the game didnt have rules for shooting people with lasers, it does.



hes a housecat, its a joke on the fact that the standard CR 1 housecat encounter (2-5 cats) will typically ruin a commoner

I also said lasers and beams aren't the same thing and they're not.

[toapat]

Lets use a better example (as Faceroll would put it).

"The PHB doesn't say that Fighters get disintegrate at will at CL20 as a Free action at level one, so they must get it."

Where specifically does it define the term spellcasting class?

the problem is, the examples in Practiced spellcaster do not use Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, or ultimate magus, so without a hard definition of what it means by spellcasting class, i take it to intend to have ment that "This feat can only apply to classes which grant their own casting progression" as opposed to "This feat can target any class which grants spellcasting progression"

[Coidzor]

Dat collar of perpetual attendance.

[Acanous]

In the Practiced Spellcaster Scenerio;

Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. There is no "Mystic Theurge" spell list. It advances both your prior spellcasting classes (IE Wizard/Archivist). You need to take Practiced Spellcaster twice. Once for Wizard, again for Archivist.

Or you could just use the feats on better things. Seriously, you're epic level, you really don't need the extra caster levels.

[toapat]

In the Practiced Spellcaster Scenerio;

Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. There is no "Mystic Theurge" spell list. It advances both your prior spellcasting classes (IE Wizard/Archivist). You need to take Practiced Spellcaster twice. Once for Wizard, again for Archivist.

Or you could just use the feats on better things. Seriously, you're epic level, you really don't need the extra caster levels.

1: I acknowledge this, and that is what they meant, find me RAW that confirms this, otherwise the cheddar remains. besides, this is a cat with a 36 base int, this is the least pungent cheddar in the build anyway
2: DCFS is given typically more flexibility then it actually has. Mouskers only has 1 epic slot, so he can only have 1 epic feat at any one given time.

[Waddacku]

Unless the Commoner is a PC it doesn't get full HD at first level. So 2 or 3 plus whatever Con bonus they might have (likely none). Furthermore, the cat has very good odds for sneaking up on the Commoner and not just initiating combat within melee range and getting a surprise round, but also probably winning initiative for a full attack on that.

And even if it can't sneak and starts at range it has a solid chance of winning in a straight up fight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1: I acknowledge this, and that is what they meant, find me RAW that confirms this, otherwise the cheddar remains. besides, this is a cat with a 36 base int, this is the least pungent cheddar in the build anyway
2: DCFS is given typically more flexibility then it actually has. Mouskers only has 1 epic slot, so he can only have 1 epic feat at any one given time.

And that feat is epic spellcasting, which makes pretty much everything leading up to it irrelevant.

[toapat]

And that feat is epic spellcasting, which makes pretty much everything leading up to it irrelevant.

1 TINY problem there:
Mouskers only is a 16th level Wizard/Archivist at lvl 19. i cant move the Archivist 2 level to lvl 20 so that he qualifies early for epic spellcasting (FU Cat Hitdice)

[Slipperychicken]

How does mouskers here carry his spell/prayer book? a lack of posable thumbs is quite a handicap.

Eidetic Spellcaster variant. No more spellbook. Smoke weed strange herbs catnip to learn spells. You are a magic pothead kitten.

Feats

• Obtain Familiar, get a Cat familiar.
• Keen Intellect (Int to Will saves and some WIS-based skills like Sense Motive and Spot)
• Improved Initative

Skills

• Perform (Keyboard Instruments)
• Perform (Cute)
• Handle Humanoid
• ALL THE KNOWLEDGES
• Speak Language (ALL THE LANGUAGES)
  
• You have like 17 skills to max, so you should be good with Knowledge (All 10 of them), Speak Language, Spellcraft, Handle Humanoid, Concentration, Decipher Script, Use Magic Device, Sense Motive.

[nedz]

In the Practiced Spellcaster Scenerio;

...

Or you could just use the feats on better things. Seriously, you're epic level, you really don't need the extra caster levels.

The first rule of CharOp would like to have a word: Never sacrifice caster level.

Psionic cat is a trope? That's a new one to me.

What about a Thrallherd ?
The idea of a cat having a large hoard of doting humans does seem quite cute.

[legomaster00156]

Smoke weed strange herbs catnip to learn spells. You are a magic pothead kitten.

I just want permission to add this to my signature.

[Slipperychicken]

I just want permission to add this to my signature.

Permission granted

[toapat]

well, this is irritating, i learned that Archivist gets bonus feats from Wisdom.

[Slipperychicken]

well, this is irritating, i learned that Archivist gets bonus feats from Wisdom.

???

They get bonus feats, but it has nothing to do with Wisdom.

They do get bonus spells from Wisdom (the rest of it is Int based, I think the Wisdom bit is a typo), though. Which is confusing to no end. You're not going to have problems with spells/day though, with Int 36 Wizard on the other side, plus your base allotment.

I would be very impressed if Mr Snuggles here managed to burn through his entire daily allotment of spells.


Another feat: Uncanny Forethought (and it's prerequisite, Spell Mastery). Your only limitation ("I didn't prepare that spell today") is now gone for good, with 13+ spontaneous castings/day.

[Amechra]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate required you to be an Elf, the last time I checked...

Plus, Awakened Animals don't have LA. So they are literally unplayable.

Additionally, Practiced Spellcaster specifies a spellcasting class. A class is only a spellcasting class if it grants spellcasting, which Mystic Theurge only progresses.

So it don't work like that.