OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

[mjasghar]

I don’t recall the runes triggering whenever any of team evil entered - including when the warg went in

[Rinazina]

That's actually a good point; there's the chance that the trap in that dungeon hasn't been already reset, though.

if I understood correctly, Haley said it resets at every individual passage.
also true the 'if then' block of pseudocode triggered by the trap, if is at every individual passage, need a timeout to expire internally, if activate something in the maze.
without a timeout, it would have now been triggered since the first step, from the bugbears, years ago.
and/or, if the effect it is associated to the individual, like an invisible mark, that might have an expiration time.

well now I believe it is likely related to the mysterious character of the book.

[Rinazina]

Crackshot theory:

The trap isn't offensive (or else Team Evil would have set it off). It's a scrying trap instead, allowing the guardians of the Gate to track whoever didn't disable the alarm (that's why Haley also mentions it goes off for each person walking over it). That way, the guardians instantly know which dungeon the Team has entered as well as tracking their progress. This also maybe allows them to reach the Gate before the invading team and blow it if they have to.

that's it! yes!
and it is likely they were aware of the paladins hiding nearby?
considering we'll have a very frequent character appeared only once in last book, might be one of the invisible guardian?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm prepared to accept this under suspension of disbelief - but just pointing out, I'm not sure there is any way to hide your scent tracks after the fact. As I understand it, once the scent trail is laid, there isn't much you can do about it.

Perfumes exist. Use Summoning to call in a Celestial Skunk to spray down the area. Cast Stinking Cloud. And I'm pretty sure Disguise Scent got updated from 2E into 3E.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it just me or is it a little disturbing to see all of them actually using their skills properly? :)

It's about darned time.

My bet is either that or it alerts the faction guarding the gate to do so.

That's the direction of my thinking as well.

Well, if it is, I feel like it will make the Chekhov's Gun of MitD marking extra doors pointless, unless the Gate is behind one of the extra doors MitD marked, and this turns out to matter.

Foreshadowing for a bigger betrayal later, perhaps. MiTD can't know if things reset ... not that bright.

It’s worth remembering that Oona and her village farm these caves on the regular. Team Evil would have no reason to check for traps if they’re with someone who has been in there before.

Fair point.

I'm prepared to accept this under suspension of disbelief - but just pointing out, I'm not sure there is any way to hide your scent tracks after the fact. As I understand it, once the scent trail is laid, there isn't much you can do about it.

As noted above, skunk scent or, perhaps, lots of cayenne pepper. I am guessing, with Belkar's skill as a chef, that he's laying down some hot pepper flakes ...

Considering Aragorn never washes his hair (h/t to Cassandra Claire), yet is able to sit in a tavern without being noticed, I'd think so...

Those Very Secret Diaries are/were The Bomb. Loved them.

[Xlsfd]

I think a quote from Strip #922 is appropiate here.

Roy:

Ok, now I know were're doomed. Belkar is acting like a ranger.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think a quote from Strip #922 is appropiate here.

Roy:

Ya beat me to it.
And I just love Belkar's closing line in the last panel. Love it.

[deltamire]

Crackshot theory:

The trap isn't offensive (or else Team Evil would have set it off). It's a scrying trap instead, allowing the guardians of the Gate to track whoever didn't disable the alarm (that's why Haley also mentions it goes off for each person walking over it). That way, the guardians instantly know which dungeon the Team has entered as well as tracking their progress. This also maybe allows them to reach the Gate before the invading team and blow it if they have to.

I hadn't considered anything like that at all, but it makes a lot of sense! My main problem with the restocking theory was that it removed all the weight from the MiTD's cover-ups beyond a marker of his personality growth if Team Evil couldn't check the doors for his betrayal, but this would still keep that as something affecting the plot while introducing anyone (Serini, the mysterious voices, anyone else who's thrown their chips in) who's protecting or surveying the gate in a more organic way. Definitely going to be considering this as one of the more viable theories being thrown about.

[gatemansgc]

Sheesh Belkar, don't pat yourself on the back too hard, you've been absolutely terrible at tracking for a long time.

And hey, look at that. Every door that Durkon and Minrah open during https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html have little lines on them. And yet Team Evil did not visibly trigger anything upon entering. Most curious.

good catch!

[pendell]

Did someone mention that the bugbears farm these caves regularly? Then perhaps that explains why TE missed the trap; Oona must know about it, and know how to bypass it. Possibly it's more trouble to disarm than it's worth. I'm a bit surprised Xykon didn't simply throw an underling across the line of runes to see what would happen for funsies. "Disposable Minions" are the evil-aligned party's standby for trap detection and disposal, after all.

.. what was that strip where they used disposable minions to put a monster to sleep by munching down on hobgoblins ,again?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[gatemansgc]

I think a quote from Strip #922 is appropiate here.

Roy:

that was one of my fave moments in the series tbh <3

[Thrillhouse]

Crazy theory time:

Be aware that I have no knowledge of DND mechanics so I don’t know if I’m even describing something possible.

If Serini were truly trying to defend the gate based on Kraagor’s philosophy, she would be unlikely to make a dungeon in which you could get lucky by picking the right door first and then have to fight less.

She would also be unlikely to make the monsters a diversion, and the “real solution” something like finding a secret passage.

The true “brute force” defence would be a system whereby invaders have to fight and kill each and every monster in the entire hollow before getting to the gate.

So my guess is that the “trap” simply puts an invisible marker on those who cross it, meant to “record” that they have entered that tunnel. There is probably a similar trap at the end of each tunnel that records that one reached the end of it.

When a person crosses this trap with a number of invisible marks on them indicating that they’ve reached the end of the “last” hollow, a passageway opens up somehow to the gate, probably with some suitably epic final boss monster in front of it.

The reason there is a passage at all is so that Serini can get to the gate herself if need be. However in her case either she has some way of evading the detection of all the monsters, or more likely they are charmed or trained not to attack her, specifically. In any case she has already triggered all the traps herself and merely needs to walk to the end of any hollow to make the passage appear.

No idea if any of this is actually possible in terms of game mechanics. But that’s my theory. It’s incomplete in that it doesn’t explain the regeneration of the monsters but my suspicion is there are numerous ways one could manage that.

PS: This also would have the bonus of making MitD’s betrayal something substantive, that will actually make it harder for TE to find the gate.

[Riftwolf]

AFAICT the SRD at least doesn't give any advantage to hiding tracks for having survival or the track feat, it's just a flat +5 to the track DC at the cost of moving half speed.

So it's really not a rules joke and isn't a major plot element, it's just an explanation of why this has any chance of working with a final panel joke thrown in.

As a GM, I'd probably allow a larger increase to the DC for use of the survival skill and track feat to help hide tracks, it makes sense, but AFAICT it's not a rule.

Ranger Teacher: OK kids today were going to learn about tracking. It's useful for tracking animals, or occasionally criminals who escape into the forest. The first thing I should warn you of, because it's how my brother died, is that sometimes criminals will use bear musk to hide their trail...
Belkar: Does it have to be bear musk?
Ranger Teacher: Well other animals might work, I suppose... Fox, Beaver, Elon... But using bear musk attracts bears, you see, and so my brother...
Belkar: *writes down 'use musk to hide scent trail'* OK thanks Mr. Strider, see you next week!

[B. Pseudonym]

The runes are very, very interesting, and I'm excited to see that chekhov's gun go off.

That said, remember strip 1040, when Team Evil walks out of the tomb and they're all banged up? And there's a last-panel gag where the MitD says "So visually complex, too! I'm glad no one had to draw a picture of that!"

It's probably a little stupid, but that's had me hyped up to see what this dungeon looks like for months.

[Riftwolf]

Those Very Secret Diaries are/were The Bomb. Loved them.

Was that the 'Sam will kill him if he finds out' series? Wow that takes me back to when the Internet was young.

[ReaderAt2046]

So, as Roy pointed out in strip 1203, the dungeon doors are too close together for anything other than a straight corridor behind each. We also know that the whole thing is made of multidimensional stone, which 1) means that you can't Ghostform through it and 2) introduces the idea of multidimensional natures. And now we have a trap that only a very high-level rogue could spot inside each door, one that obviously doesn't have any visible effect and that resets to apply to each person passing through the door.

So my theory is that the entire complex is a shell game. The runes form some kind of dimensional shift, and if you cross the runes without disabling them you enter a tiny pocket dimension for each door, one that holds the appropriate monsters. The only way to access the actual Gate is to disable the dimensional runes, which allows you to enter the actual Gate complex. Serini tells everyone she's building a dungeon dedicated to the power of physical might in memory of Kraagor, but that is just one more layer of obfuscation around the Gate's actual defenses. Very rogueish thing to do.

[harami2000]

Magic covers a lot.

Laying a superintense scent down that masks the original scent---strong essential oils like eugenol (oil of clove), chili pepper extract, etc---is another method. I can see too, spraying some other substance that would chemically break down the floating and adsorbed molecules that make up a scent trail. Bleach, ozone, fluorine gas. An aerosol of activated charcoal dust? Super-Febreeze.

A dog's nose is pretty sensitive though.

Hopefully the silence spell is still in force so we can't hear Greyview's response to being called a d-o-g.

[Gnoman]

It occurs to me that we might be seeing a particularly clever variant of the shell game here. Pretty much anybody actually seeking the Gate is going to know something of the history of the Order Of The Scribble. So they're expecting either a rougish maze or (if they're very well informed) a physical gauntlet if extreme difficulty.

At most, they'll expect Girard to contribute Illusions, but that is it for magic. So whaever this magic trap is will be something completely unaccounted for in planning. I like the notion that it is a very powerful Teleport effect you don't notice, that ensures you are never on a valid path to the Gate, but there's lots of other possible options here.

[Resileaf]

I'll go ahead and give my own theory since everyone's up to it.

There is one real dungeon, but it also has the trap trigger at the beginning. Hundreds of doors lead into small passageways that lead nowhere, but with a trap at the beginning that leads to a fake dungeon (perhaps creating a portal), one door leads to the real dungeon, also with a trap at the beginning that leads to a fake dungeon since there's no reason for the real dungeon to not have that defense at the beginning, and is further defended by trap after trap after trap.

Which means that the hundreds of doors are still an effective defense because you still have to check on them one by one, and always have to disarm the trigger at the beginning. This is very time consuming and lets Sereni's invisible allies (if her allies they are) find a way to deal with the intruders.

[Olinser]

AHA.

Evidence is starting to pile up for my theory that it is a specific ORDER of door opening that is required to access the Gate.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Peelee]

AHA.

Evidence is starting to pile up for my theory that it is a specific ORDER of door opening that is required to access the Gate.

Not to sound snarky, but... it is? What evidence?

[KorvinStarmast]

Was that the 'Sam will kill him if he finds out' series? Wow that takes me back to when the Internet was young.

"Well, younger ..." but yeah, that one. I laughed when I first came across it.
(Aragorn, Day 352: Darnit, still not King!)

Also, to follow up on the Strip 1216 point about lines on the floor ...
Greyview did not appear to trigger a trap when he took off with a silence spell upon him

I wonder if Haley slightly misdiagnosed what she found.

[Resileaf]

"Well, younger ..." but yeah, that one. I laughed when I first came across it.
(Aragorn, Day 352: Darnit, still not King!)

Also, to follow up on the Strip 1216 point about lines on the floor ...
Greyview did not appear to trigger a trap when he took off with a silence spell upon him

I wonder if Haley slightly misdiagnosed what she found.

None of Team Evil appeared to trigger a trap when they went through the door. The effect of the trap is clearly of the very subtle kind that isn't noticeable and doesn't deal damage.

[KorvinStarmast]

None of Team Evil appeared to trigger a trap when they went through the door. The effect of the trap is clearly of the very subtle kind that isn't noticeable and doesn't deal damage.

Might even be an alarm.

And I think this is a good place to put this: last two panels, I still really like Roy's green hat and Roy's green scarf.

[jayem]

It would be quite trickstery if actually going into the dungeon invalidated the opening of the door. I'm not sure how you actually do it.

[Raven777]

This new era of Belkar contributing mission critical skills (beyond stabbing fools) confuses me.

[b_jonas]

As for erasing their trail from tracking dogs.

Lois Lowry's children's novel Number the stars (1989) is a story based on real history that involves this. The story is set during World War II, telling about the evacuation of jews from Denmark to Sweden to avoid their prosecution. People were smuggled through the sea in hidden compartments of fishing boats. To attempt to stop this, german soldiers used dogs to sniff out people hiding in the boat. So the fisherman had to use a trick to mislead the dogs.

Spoiler: Spoilers for "Number the stars"

Show

This involves a powder mixed from rabbit blood, to attract the dog, and cocaine, to numb their sense of smell.

If Belkar was indeed hunted by law enforcement dogs, he might indeed have learned a trick like this. But, as other people point out, there could also be magic involved.

[Jacky720]

Not to sound snarky, but... it is? What evidence?

Every door is rigged with runes that do something other than explode you. It fits neatly into forming a passcode, if the something is "track which door you entered".

Which isn't really evidence because of all the other interpretations, but it does fit.

[Peelee]

Every door is rigged with runes that do something other than explode you. It fits neatly into forming a passcode, if the something is "track which door you entered".

Which isn't really evidence because of all the other interpretations, but it does fit.

OK, I getcha now. Though if that were the case, I'd imagine it would be easier and more reliable to just have any such runes on the inside of the doors, since that way they wouldn't be able to be bypassed like Haley is doing.