The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[javcs]

By this logic, anything with RHD without scaling abilities (like racial casting) should not get LA. Which doesn't seem to fit with previous threads, considering things like Troll got LA.

RHD, as a general rule, are inferior to class levels.
Some RHD are better than others. As for Outsider RHD, they're basically on par with a level in monk with +1/4 BAB, +2 skillpoints, and no abilities or restrictions.
What matters are the other abilities and features a creature has.
The best RHD are generally considered to be Dragon and Outsider, but by themselves, they're on the line between T5 and T6 (everything else is T6 or worse).


Trolls have a relatively modest number of RHD, a solid set of bruiser-oriented racial +numbers, and Regeneration.
Regeneration basically never goes out of style.

Some abilities don't need to scale to remain valuable at higher levels.

Lumi are, IMO, something of an edge case - they're worth their 2 RHD, so at least a +0 ... and then the question is, are they really worth the loss of another class level to LA over the life of a build.
And that's a judgement call. I'd say they aren't worth the +1 LA over 20 levels, but others disagree.
On the other hand, if they had 3 RHD instead of 2 RHD ... I think they'd probably be considered an okay +0.
That is, IMO, Lumi aren't quite worth the loss of the third class level to LA, but probably would be worth loosing that third class level to RHD.

[Lans]

RHD, as a general rule, are inferior to class levels.
Some RHD are better than others. As for Outsider RHD, they're basically on par with a level in monk with +1/4 BAB, +2 skillpoints, and no abilities or restrictions.
What matters are the other abilities and features a creature has.
The best RHD are generally considered to be Dragon and Outsider, but by themselves, they're on the line between T5 and T6 (everything else is T6 or worse).
.

I think they are a bit better than that. The high end of tier 6 is going to be maybe the soulknife, expert and warrior and these HD are worth more than that. In fact I think 2 levels of these is better than any 2 levels of fighter past the first

[javcs]

I think they are a bit better than that. The high end of tier 6 is going to be maybe the soulknife, expert and warrior and these HD are worth more than that. In fact I think 2 levels of these is better than any 2 levels of fighter past the first

They're still lower T5, at best, on their own. They give you no abilities, just numbers, and that's only going to go so far.

[ExLibrisMortis]

RHD power also depends on class skills; Lumi have an okay list (8 skills, Diplomacy/Listen/Spot), Lurking Stranglers have a bad list (4 skills, Hide/Listen/Spot). Even though Lumi have as many skill points as a rogue, they are probably worse off than a bard in terms of what they can get with those points.

[Lans]

They're still lower T5, at best, on their own. They give you no abilities, just numbers, and that's only going to go so far.

What classes do you consider mid tier 5? I think outsider and dragon HD are about as good as fighters and OA samurai and if you consider then to be low tier 5 then we may just have a different opionion on what low tier 5 is.

I think tier 4 is a place you can get to with just numbers. Using Barbarian as example, he really can't do anything, he is just a little beefier warrior.

[javcs]

What classes do you consider mid tier 5? I think outsider and dragon HD are about as good as fighters and OA samurai and if you consider then to be low tier 5 then we may just have a different opionion on what low tier 5 is.

I think tier 4 is a place you can get to with just numbers. Using Barbarian as example, he really can't do anything, he is just a little beefier warrior.

To be honest, for T5, I generally don't care enough to work out where various classes sit in it relative to one another. They're bad, and I'm not going to bother with using them unless I'm creating a fix or employing them for purely thematic reasons in a situation where their suckitude doesn't matter. Or, I suppose, I might use fighter for part of a gestalt generic NPC if I'm feeling lazy or uninspired.



At any rate ... Outsider RHD are like monk levels with +1/4 BAB and +2 skill points per level, but no abilities, but also no monk restrictions. Oh, and Outsider RHD will usually have inferior class skills.
Dragon RHD have +2-4 HP and +1/4 BAB per level, but no abilities and no monk restrictions. And, again, usually inferior class skills.

In addition ... there are all the class variants, ACFs, and hybridization/multiclass options available to actual class levels.

[Aniikinis]

Lacking limbs, a mouth, a body (and item slots and chakras), and hands, along with the ability to not really use any tools or communicate effectively unless it goes telepath but even then good luck. With two eye rays that scale as badly as a cliff, all around vision, and a suffocate attack that is only useful if there is some way to possibly make absolutely sure you can hit with it and not die in the next round. Oh and also 2 aberration HD, yuck.

It's looking like a -0* to me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In terms of communication, give the player a box of pipe cleaners and play linear-string-charades. (This may get annoying; that annoyance is included in the * rating.)

I'd let them (and other characters) learn a "sign language".


And yeah, Lurking Stranglers are pretty crippled in nearly every way. But they have one ability which can potentially trivialize the types of challenges which form the core of a typical D&D game, and I'm not sure a * gets across how this -0 is different than a normal bodily-challenged monster. Hence my suggestion of -0⚠️, even though that's not really a thing.

[OgresAreCute]

Some creatures just really aren't meant to be rated. Here's my suggested rating for it:

Spoiler: Picture

Show

More seriously, I don't think there's any real way using just +, -, digits and asterisks to properly convey when, how and how much this thing sucks. We'll just have to slap on a "good enough" rating and then hope either a) no one wants to play this thing or b) they read the thread first before playing it.

[Inevitability]

Mastodon

Take an elephant, increase its stats by a tiny bit and its HD by four, and you got a mastodon. Cool as these guys may be, trampling and stomping just don't cut it at ECL 15: easy -0.

[Elkad]

Mastodon

At least it has one hand - so it's less bad than most animals. But -0 is still mandatory.

[Zaq]

HOW many RHD?

-0. Next!

[Aniikinis]

Not worth much at all, plus it could have been a druid by that point. Pass.

-0 LA.

[javcs]

Ah, an easy one, where the only real disagreements will be over how much to laugh at it and how much to laugh at someone wanting to play it.

LA -0.

[Aniikinis]

Ah, an easy one, where the only real disagreements will be over how much to laugh at it and how much to laugh at someone wanting to play it.

Laugh at me all you want, but I will play this. ...As a 15th level druid for a joke or as an awakened mammoth so that I could screw with npcs.

[ViperMagnum357]

Mastodon: 15 Animal RHD and no interesting features = hard pass. LA -0 and moving on.

[javcs]

Laugh at me all you want, but I will play this. ...As a 15th level druid for a joke or as an awakened mammoth so that I could screw with npcs.

I suppose I should have excluded using it as a joke.
But as a joke, we'd still be laughing (hopefully), if for different reasons than somebody wanting to play it for real/ not as a joke.

[Aniikinis]

But as a joke, we'd still be laughing (hopefully), if for different reasons than somebody wanting to play it for real/ not as a joke.

Good point there.

[liquidformat]

Some creatures just really aren't meant to be rated. Here's my suggested rating for it:

Spoiler: Picture

Show

More seriously, I don't think there's any real way using just +, -, digits and asterisks to properly convey when, how and how much this thing sucks. We'll just have to slap on a "good enough" rating and then hope either a) no one wants to play this thing or b) they read the thread first before playing it.

That is why we have the rating linked to an entire page about the creature... * was meant as read about this creature it has issues that must be addressed.

In this case with all the issues the Lurking Strangler has even at the two to four levels it is relevant it still sucks. All it has to contribute to a party is its save or loose abilities it has nothing else.

Mammoth is pretty safely -0, they have too much rhd bloat to be in any way relevant.

[Celestia]

At least mastadon is a cool name.

[Nifft]

15 RHD? Nah.

One hand is sufficient for one thumbs down.

Verdict: LA -0, now we know why these are extinct in real life, nobody wanted to play one.

[Celestia]

15 RHD? Nah.

One hand is sufficient for one thumbs down.

Verdict: LA -0, now we know why these are extinct in real life, nobody wanted to play one.

But then why are kobolds extinct?

[No brains]

At least mastadon is a cool name.

Naw, man. "boob-tooth" is a totally METAL name. Wikipedia Mastodon for band and etymology.

Solidly -0. If it had fewer HD, an actually prehensile trunk, and counted as mounted for wielding a lance, that could be fun.

[liquidformat]

But then why are kobolds extinct?

Because we have no dragons so they can't abuse dragonwrought...

[Nifft]

But then why are kobolds extinct?

Kobolds aren't extinct, they're ascended.

Because we have no dragons so they can't abuse dragonwrought...

Somewhere a kobold clicks her ruby-scaled heels together and realizes the true dragon was inside her heart all along.

Kobolds are the dragons who wrought themselves.

[Thurbane]

I concur with LA -0 for both the eyes without a face and hairy elephant...

[Covenant12]

-0* for the eyes. Below +0 consistently and warning the DM of many issues if you try anyway.

-0 for mastadon. That many bad rhd need something compelling, and it isn't close.

[Inevitability]

Not worth much at all, plus it could have been a druid by that point. Pass.

-0 LA.

At level 17 you could play a mastodon with two class levels, or you could play a druid who turns into a mastodon, has a mastodon for a pet, and has an elephant as a secondary pet, and also happens to have 9th-level spells.

[Lapak]

At level 17 you could play a mastodon with two class levels, or you could play a druid who turns into a mastodon, has a mastodon for a pet, and has an elephant as a secondary pet, and also happens to have 9th-level spells.

Now I want to run a party made entirely of Awakened animals who are valid wildshape forms who are all taking Druid levels.

I can't decide if it would be more amusing to refluff Wildshape so that druids with an animal base form can take a humanoid shape with it, it just leave it as-is and have the whole party constantly mimicking whatever PC's natural shape is best for the given moment. It's a flock of birds! No, a pack of wolves! A herd of mastodons! A nest of snakes!

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's a bird! It's a snake! No, it's Druid-Man!