The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

[Inevitability]

Graaaaaay renders:

-0: 8 votes
+0: 11 votes
+1: 1 vote (no points for guessing who)

The rating of +0 will be maintained in light of those results.

Considering just how many piles of skulls (and only skulls) there appear to be in this world, I propose that they are some form of naturally growing flora that populates monster lairs.

Can I quote this?

[Inevitability]

Half-Giant

Weirdly proportioned psionic humanoids, unsubtly imported from Dark Sun.

The obvious balance point here are goliaths (rated at +1, unlikely to change), and I gotta say that they compare quite well. Both are medium-sized, both get Powerful Build, both get +2 constitution and -2 dexterity in addition to a strength bonus (+4 for the goliath, +2 for the half-giant).

The few differences are quite minor. In addition to the strength bonus, half-giants get +2 on saving throws against fire/heat effects, two bonus power points, and Stomp 1/day. Goliaths, meanwhile, get +2 sense motive, tolerance of high altitudes, and bonuses when climbing and jumping. Half-giants have a minor niche in getting the giant type, which opens up Return To Nature shenanigans, but those are so niche that I'm comfortable dismissing them as a viable build.

All things considered, the half giant is a goliath that sacrifices some brute strength for psionic utility, and that's a fair choice. +1 LA for those guys.

[liquidformat]

Your only definition for a base race is one with +0 ability modifiers and 0 LA? By that definition, the PHB half-orc isn't a base race and neither is the water halfling, literally right above the water orc in Unearthed Arcana.

This seems like pretty decent a quivocation fallacy...

[MisterKaws]

Half-Giant

This one is pretty obvious, I guess. Not the strongest +1 ever but definitely in the +1 range.

[Thurbane]

Without going in to too much details, I concur with LA +1.

[Celestia]

Graaaaaay renders:

-0: 8 votes
+0: 11 votes
+1: 1 vote (no points for guessing who)

The rating of +0 will be maintained in light of those results.



Can I quote this?

Sure. more text

[javcs]

Concur with the +1 for the Half Giant. It's nearer the bottom of +1, though.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA +1 on the Half-Giant. Not spectacular, but having Powerful Build and net +2 abilities with no serious drawbacks is enough to edge it upwards.

[Caelestion]

The half-giant isn't a particularly blatant +1, but I think it is LA +1.

This seems like pretty decent a quivocation fallacy...

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong. You laid out a pretty clear specification for a base race in your eyes, so unless you have other rules you didn't mention, I can only conclude that you don't like the obvious inconsistencies with using that specification.

[liquidformat]

Not the best +1 but too good for +0 so +1 it is.

[Efrate]

Giant type is nice, means hold person and the like will not hit you. Its a reasonable +1.

[No brains]

I'm kinda curious what exactly puts these at +1 over a good +0. Is it the combo of giant type and powerful build? What could be taken away to make this a +0?

[MisterKaws]

I'm kinda curious what exactly puts these at +1 over a good +0. Is it the combo of giant type and powerful build? What could be taken away to make this a +0?

Powerful Build and Giant Type. Without those two it's just a slightly better psionic Orc.

[javcs]

I'm kinda curious what exactly puts these at +1 over a good +0. Is it the combo of giant type and powerful build? What could be taken away to make this a +0?

Giant type, powerful build, net positive stats, the bonus to saves against fire spells and effects (aka, most common energy type), and the power points unlocking access to psionic feats.

That said, IMO the Half Giant is at the bottom end of +1. Take any one of the above away, and it probably drops to the top of +0, take any two away and it's definitely +0, though probably still on the stronger end.

[Thurbane]

The other nice thing about Giant type is the Primordial Giant LA +0 template.

There's also a way to (ab)use Return To Nature to become extremely small, if that works for your build.

[Falontani]

The other nice thing about Giant type is the Primordial Giant LA +0 template.

There's also a way to (ab)use Return To Nature to become extremely small, if that works for your build.

Waiting to see what half troll's new LA is so I can see if I can do exactly that with a few builds

[liquidformat]

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong. You laid out a pretty clear specification for a base race in your eyes, so unless you have other rules you didn't mention, I can only conclude that you don't like the obvious inconsistencies with using that specification.

So now that you have been called out for a quivocation fallacy you go for an appeal to ignorance to top it off, great job buddy you are on the right road. First off you only took one sentence out of an entire paragraph, later on I also said that besides numbers they get little else and besides specifically going with a beat stick which are normally tier 4 and lower (with exception of ToB which brings them up to tier 3) the water orc is a horrible choice for most classes. Sure we could argue that swim speed is important but it either is important or it is useless and that is about all the water orc gets. Just having numbers is the reason why we have given things like a gnoll a -0 LA and in this case it makes the water orc better than a general orc and even given certain builds it makes it a higher base race but it isn't enough to go to +1. No one would ever touch a water orc at +1. Now that I think about it your last statement and this one are also a decent example of hasty generalizations, I have told you why I believe a specific race gets a certain rating so you assume that is my single criteria for all judgments.

Lastly it was decided in one of the first LA-assignment thread that water orc was a +0 base race and a good comparison point, so this isn't exactly a new argument nor isn't a worth while one anytime someone uses a water orc. I tried to be polite with you and ask what you thought was a good base race for comparison and give some insight on why I thought a specific base race we have already established as a +0 base race is a good choice, but I guess that was a waste of time...

[Zaq]

A familiar refrain: I would never take the half-giant at +1 unless doing shenanigans with the Giant type. It is not worth losing (all together now!) BAB, HP, saves, skill ranks, and class advancement. That is an enormous cost without a lot of game-changing benefit.

I think that the half-giant is a victim of WotC’s laughable STR-phobia, and the whole stupid “OMG big weaponz!” thing triggered some dev’s itchy LA finger. (Even on a beatstick, think about how many size increases you have to stack before +1 weapon size is a better return on damage than an extra BAB to throw into Power Attack.) The cost is not worth the benefit. I don’t care if it’s more powerful than a standard elf; it’s not more powerful than (or even equal in power to) a standard class level, and therefore it’s overpriced at +1.

I could maybe be talked into +1 with buyoff, but not without buyoff. I’d rather take a half-elf and an extra class level than be a half-giant.

[Dimers]

I'm surprised to see my rating below most people's for a change. LA +0 for me; Powerful Build is nice but not worth a class level, No. Let me rephrase that. Unless you're stacking at least a couple size increases on an already big honkin' weapon, Powerful Build is about 1 or 2 damage difference. The only thing that makes it notable in play is the grapple/trip/swallow/etc benefit. And in the early game (when LA is a bigger percentage of your build), giant type is as likely to be a problem as a bonus. Players control a lot of action, and I bet enlarge person comes up more often on Team PC than charm person or hold person does on Team Antagonist.

[Caelestion]

So now that you have been called out for a quivocation fallacy you go for an appeal to ignorance to top it off, great job buddy you are on the right road.

For someone who is throwing around fallacies as if it makes you sound smart, you should check up on how they're actually spelt. It's an equivocation fallacy. Just thought I'd let you know.

[liquidformat]

For someone who is throwing around fallacies as if it makes you sound smart, you should check up on how they're actually spelt. It's an equivocation fallacy. Just thought I'd let you know.

Thank you for correcting a spelling error.

[Celestia]

I'm surprised to see my rating below most people's for a change. LA +0 for me; Powerful Build is nice but not worth a class level, No. Let me rephrase that. Unless you're stacking at least a couple size increases on an already big honkin' weapon, Powerful Build is about 1 or 2 damage difference. The only thing that makes it notable in play is the grapple/trip/swallow/etc benefit. And in the early game (when LA is a bigger percentage of your build), giant type is as likely to be a problem as a bonus. Players control a lot of action, and I bet enlarge person comes up more often on Team PC than charm person or hold person does on Team Antagonist.

Dimers speaks the truth.

[liquidformat]

I'm surprised to see my rating below most people's for a change. LA +0 for me; Powerful Build is nice but not worth a class level, No. Let me rephrase that. Unless you're stacking at least a couple size increases on an already big honkin' weapon, Powerful Build is about 1 or 2 damage difference. The only thing that makes it notable in play is the grapple/trip/swallow/etc benefit. And in the early game (when LA is a bigger percentage of your build), giant type is as likely to be a problem as a bonus. Players control a lot of action, and I bet enlarge person comes up more often on Team PC than charm person or hold person does on Team Antagonist.

This assumes you will be taking half-giant and not going psionic, I don't think I have been in a game with a half-giant that didn't take at least one level of Psychic Warrior and all of those games were Psionic focused so not being subject to enlarge, charm, and hold person was moot. But with that said I agree even in a psionic focused game I would always go with goliath over half-giant, goliath is just better.

[OgresAreCute]

Powerful Build is nice mostly for the +4 to combat maneuvers and is a genuinely good ability, but with the mediocre stat mods and lackluster other abilities I don't like this at +1. With buy-off I think they're fine at +1, but since this thread doesn't use buy-off I'm gonna have to vote +0.

[Morphic tide]

The detriments of being a Giant are immensely reduced by the fact of Half-Giant being a Psionic race, and therefor having access to the Psionic mechanics for such effects, guaranteeing access to the Humanoid-only spell effects that have non-type-specific Psionic equivalents. Expansion, for instance, is PsyWar 1, which is a natural class for the extra-PP-and-Strength-bonus Half-Giant. Sure, you likely don't want the Claw powers, but almost all of them have weapon counterparts anyways for you to get up to +4.5 for with Powerful Build.

In particular, it makes 1d10 into 2d8, 1d8 into 2d6 and 2d6 and 1d12 into 3d6. You'll be able to have Expansion active near enough all-fight every fight as a weapon-using Psychic Warrior (and Half-Giant gives an extra two uses of it a day immediately), so this first step is a safe assumption. After this, you're adding d6 and d8 each size increase, so any of the 1d10 weapons are getting +4.5 damage on average, which includes the Bastard Sword and Glaive. The ones that become d6s are getting +3.5 damage per size increase, which includes the Greatsword's baseline 2d6.

So there's actually a lot of useful weapons that are getting an extra +3.5 damage, and a few getting +4.5, for an Expansion-spamming Psychic Warrior. You also presumably get the Large progression for Claws of the Beast, which starts as just +1 average damage, but at 5 PP spent, it increases to +2.5 and the advantage becomes +3.5 afterwards. Bite of the Wolf immediately has the 3.5 average damage advantage, being 2d6 instead of 1d6, while applying Expansion reduces the advantage to 2 average damage. The damage of higher-level Bite of the Wolf is not increased in this way.

Overall, I think the bonuses are enough that outright LA+1 wouldn't invalidate the character, though it would be increasingly painful for Manifesting as level increases, this is offset in the natural Psychic Warrior path by the virtual size bonus conserving some PP and the two extra PP.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It is an unreasonable argument to say the comparison point should be a single classed barbarian, one because that isn't tier 3 and two because who actually does that?

Let's ignore the optimizer snootiness and move on.
When comparing the single-classed barbarian to the straight stat block, "who actually does that?" applies to both sides of the equation. If you want to build a "proper" melee PC to compare a monster to, you also need to rebuild the monster as a PC.

Nobody wants spontaneous undead outbreaks in their homes/base/lair.
Especially not if there are undead spirits being spontaneously formed from people you made dead in the first place.
Of course, while breaking the "skulls" might unleash a surprise horde of undead against the owner of the lair, possibly enough to kill them, it's worse likely that they won't be any happier about the adventurers who showed up too late to save them, assuming that they're still rational enough to recognize that the adventurers aren't working with the cause of their demise.
Might even be laws protecting the stuff - or at least, the more benign varieties, because while they're creepy looking (and have a dubious origin), they're way better than the alternative as far as society is concerned, being that spontaneous undead outbreaks are bad for pretty much everybody.

Though there are probably some necromantic rituals that let you grab (most) of the power released when you harvest the skulls, serving as an alternative to nightshade potions or human sacrifice as a power source for other rituals. And let's face it, a typical D&D world has no shortage of maniacs who'd eagerly unleash a plague of undead on the land on the assumption that they could be controlled and used to Rule the World or whatever.

[liquidformat]

Let's ignore the optimizer snootiness and move on.
When comparing the single-classed barbarian to the straight stat block, "who actually does that?" applies to both sides of the equation. If you want to build a "proper" melee PC to compare a monster to, you also need to rebuild the monster as a PC.

Optimizer snootiness? OK I will bite, so tell me when was the last time you played through barbarian 20?

I am not sure what you mean by 'rebuild' the monster as a PC, if you mean figure out where it would go and what classes it would take and so forth we already do that.

If you mean remake the monster from the ground up that is an unreasonable demand and completely outside the scope of this thread. We are here to figure out what a reasonable LA is for each monster and part of that is comparing them to what could potentially be done at a level equal to their rhd, and progressed further towards 20 with a goal of tier ~3 as comparison. Part of that is what could said base class pc do instead of those rhd. To now more the bar to 'well its not fair to do that because those rhd are fix' is a ridiculous expectation and defeats the entire purpose of this thread.

[Remuko]

A familiar refrain: I would never take the half-giant at +1 unless doing shenanigans with the Giant type. It is not worth losing (all together now!) BAB, HP, saves, skill ranks, and class advancement. That is an enormous cost without a lot of game-changing benefit.

I think that the half-giant is a victim of WotC’s laughable STR-phobia, and the whole stupid “OMG big weaponz!” thing triggered some dev’s itchy LA finger. (Even on a beatstick, think about how many size increases you have to stack before +1 weapon size is a better return on damage than an extra BAB to throw into Power Attack.) The cost is not worth the benefit. I don’t care if it’s more powerful than a standard elf; it’s not more powerful than (or even equal in power to) a standard class level, and therefore it’s overpriced at +1.

I could maybe be talked into +1 with buyoff, but not without buyoff. I’d rather take a half-elf and an extra class level than be a half-giant.

I'm surprised to see my rating below most people's for a change. LA +0 for me; Powerful Build is nice but not worth a class level, No. Let me rephrase that. Unless you're stacking at least a couple size increases on an already big honkin' weapon, Powerful Build is about 1 or 2 damage difference. The only thing that makes it notable in play is the grapple/trip/swallow/etc benefit. And in the early game (when LA is a bigger percentage of your build), giant type is as likely to be a problem as a bonus. Players control a lot of action, and I bet enlarge person comes up more often on Team PC than charm person or hold person does on Team Antagonist.

Dimers speaks the truth.

Powerful Build is nice mostly for the +4 to combat maneuvers and is a genuinely good ability, but with the mediocre stat mods and lackluster other abilities I don't like this at +1. With buy-off I think they're fine at +1, but since this thread doesn't use buy-off I'm gonna have to vote +0.

Have to concur with all these folks. +0

[Luccan]

I think +1 is fair. You can easily make up for the "lost" level if you take advantage of the afininty for psionics (instead of not doing that for no good reason), while still coming out ahead in enough areas that I think it would be worth it. I do agree with whoever said removing one or two things would make it a +0 race, so it isn't the strongest example, but it's definitely too good for no adjustment, IMO.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think +1 is fair. You can easily make up for the "lost" level if you take advantage of the afininty for psionics (instead of not doing that for no good reason), while still coming out ahead in enough areas that I think it would be worth it. I do agree with whoever said removing one or two things would make it a +0 race, so it isn't the strongest example, but it's definitely too good for no adjustment, IMO.

I think you're contradicting yourself slightly, here. "You can easily make up for the lost level" and "removing one thing makes it a +0 race"? I don't think I can easily make up for a whole class level if the difference with a strong LA +0, like a human, is only +2 Strength, or Powerful Build, or +2 power points. For one, there are class levels that will give me 2 pp and a feat, power list, skill points, saves, and so on.

Half-giants have very limited affinity for psionics. In fact, all races that have fixed bonus pp only really benefit at level 1-3 and in builds that only use psionic focus (e.g. Deep Impact, Speed of Thought, etcetera). It's like getting a bonus first-level slot if you take a level in spellcaster. It's great at low levels, but long-term, it's far, far worse than +2 to your casting stat, and nothing like "making up for a lost level".

For me, the tricky part of rating the half-giant is the Primordial template, which is really good when applied to half-giants, but probably not that good when applied to any other giant (because what it's good for--casting--doesn't really mesh with stacks of giant RHD). Primordial half-giants might deserve LA +1, even though the individual elements do not, and that's hard to account for (LA +0.5 is good for this pairing, I suppose, but not all halves synergize well).

Overall, I'll vote LA +0.