House of X

[Rater202]

I thought it was established that time travel shenanigans happen WITHIN the designated 616 universe, not in a separate universe. Although maybe there is a parallel universe out there that mirrors one of the past timelines.

I suppose its possible that any given story that doesn't explicitly say it takes place in 616 takes place elsewhere, but how often has that happened with a mainline story as opposed to something being explicitly alternative. When you get a something like time-travel by reincarnation to explain the differences you are seeing, isn't the easiest explanation that it is in the main continuity and the explanation its the 10th timeline of potentially 11 separate timelines, exactly as Moira describes it to be?

With Marvel, it depends on the exact mechanics of the time travel, but generally, the X-Men use Multiverse theory: a significant change to the past causes the original timeline to branch off and become a separate universe.

So, for example, Days of Futures Past was Earth 616, up until time travel made it impossible and it retroactively became an alternate universe.

I see no reason to assume that Moira reincarnating reboots the timeline instead of just spliting it.

[Tyrant]

1: Xavier was in on it.

The major Bombshell of this series is that almost all of the X-Men's history was staged and that Xavier, Moira, and Magneto were working in a long con. (Though they had a falling out at somepoint, so not all of the antagonism was faked.)

A version of Xavier was in on it in one of her lives. I'm honestly not convinced that is supposed to be the main continuity we have been reading about since the 60s. I have my doubts that the big reveal issue is the main timeline that we know.

2: Presumably Scott has both eyes for the same reason that everyone who died in the last fifteen or so years is alive again.

And what reason is that? Is it not within the realm of possibility that they are alive and whole because these versions aren't the ones who died recently? Consider Jean in the latest issue. Why is she wearing an absurdly retro costume? (And why were Sabertooth and Mystique for that matter)? How was she so weak on this mission? She's one of the (if not the) strongest members of the team. Why was this mission so poorly planned and executed? How long has Monet been able to just morph into Penance? (serious question, I missed a lot of Generation X) Why not just have Magneto push that thing into the sun from Earth? He pulled Kitty from across space when she was phased into that cosmic bullet so shoving a giant metal thing into the sun shouldn't be an issue for him. Where are any of the time travelling characters in all of this? I think there's too many dissimilarities and oddities for this to be the main timeline.

3: Timeline's dont' cease to exist when someone dies. the Age of Apocalypse continued to exist even after Legion's accidental murder of his father in the past was undone.

In that particular instance, I believe it should have ceased to be. It only came about because Legion was able to genuinely time travel within his own timeline and not create a split upon doing so which enabled him to change his own past. If I'm remembering it correctly that is why it was such a big deal and why it destroyed the M'Kraan (sp?) Crystal and started destroying other realities. By correcting the past the Age of Apocalypse should have ceased to exist because it replaced the main timeline, not split from it.

I believe Moira's power is resetting the timeline when she dies. Time is essentially rewinding. It's happened at least once to the X-Men in the aftermath of The Twelve storyline where Apocalypse's final gambit to claim their powers and become a god was to let them live out decades of their lives and then rewind time, absorbing all of the energies they expended in the process. There is precedent for it to happen.

Also consider Apocalypse's end goal in life IX. It's to get information to the next incarnation. Why would he care unless he was firmly convinced that everything would just reset? He could just go into hibernation and wait out the Sentinels. Unless he totally believes that there is no future after Moira dies so his only hope is to try to make the next go around better. I believe him to be a character whom we can trust to understand these matters and not just be suckered into believing Moira.

Moira dying causes her to reset in a new timeline, but that doesn't mean that the old timeline stops going.

I'm of the opinion that it does stop the timeline. I think there might be only the one timeline (for this storyline) and it keeps resetting/rewinding upon her death.

The stuff with the phalanx follows logically from Life Six, and I figure they showed it because it's gonna be relevant in a future storyline--Hickman's set to be in charge for years to come, and if nothing else the establishment of different kinds of hiveminds foreshadowed how Xavier used a hivemind to keep in touch with the X-Men this week.

I thought VI was the one that we know nothing about so far?

[Rater202]

1: Considering we see Xavier greeting several mutants, including what appears to be Vulcan(whose been dead for years,) as they emerge for pods, presumably they're alive because of some kind of organic technology.

Also, the thought occurs to me that if Elixir is available, that regenerating Scott's eye would be child's play.

2: Dozens of people who were canonically dead a week before House of X # 1 was published at confirmed to be alive and active members of the X-Men in the titles that are coming after this event.

What's more logical, that we're seeing them now, or that Hickman did a huge fake-out with the rez only to rez them again later anyway?

Hickman gave us a list of Moira's lives, plotting them all out. If you accept that she faked her death, life ten lines up perfectly with everything we know about her life in 616 and lines up perfectly with what we've seen so far.

3: I meant life nine, my bad. But the stuff with the Phalanx lines up perfectly with Apocalypse and the X-Men's confrontation against the Man-Machine Supremecay unless you want to make the argument that two separate lives went exactly the same down to the creation of the Chimeras and Ms. Black Brain ending up in the Femtofluid. The only way that works is if Timelines persist after Moira reincarnates, and honestly, there's no reason to assume that they wouldn't.

[deuterio12]

So I can't claim to have read every marvel comic ever.

But why after all those decades are sentinels still only used for mutant hunting?

One would expect the regular military to have got their hands in some of those for fighting normal humies.

And if you strip their weapons there would be plenty of civilian uses. Transport, construction, you name it.

Those things can even get on orbit and back on their own, just think what they could do for any space program!

But nooooo, all they can think of doing with the mass-produced stable technology is point them at mutants.

Ironically the one time I recall sentinels being used for other stuff was one comic where Wolverine himself pulls some connections to have a trio of decomissioned sentinels programmed to obey him and then he uses them as giant mooks/transport to go fight a bunch of villains. And although they do end up destroyed, at no point do they malfunction or rebel or anything, showing that they're still just machines that can be controlled just fine.

[Man on Fire]

So I can't claim to have read every marvel comic ever.

But why after all those decades are sentinels still only used for mutant hunting?

One would expect the regular military to have got their hands in some of those for fighting normal humies.

And if you strip their weapons there would be plenty of civilian uses. Transport, construction, you name it.

Those things can even get on orbit and back on their own, just think what they could do for any space program!

But nooooo, all they can think of doing with the mass-produced stable technology is point them at mutants.

Ironically the one time I recall sentinels being used for other stuff was one comic where Wolverine himself pulls some connections to have a trio of decomissioned sentinels programmed to obey him and then he uses them as giant mooks/transport to go fight a bunch of villains. And although they do end up destroyed, at no point do they malfunction or rebel or anything, showing that they're still just machines that can be controlled just fine.

Because X-men is a has-been franchise that just wants to blindly repeat the same stories of its glory days over and over instead of trying anything new and House of X is no different.

[Ramza00]

So I can't claim to have read every marvel comic ever.

But why after all those decades are sentinels still only used for mutant hunting?

One would expect the regular military to have got their hands in some of those for fighting normal humies.

And if you strip their weapons there would be plenty of civilian uses. Transport, construction, you name it.

Those things can even get on orbit and back on their own, just think what they could do for any space program!

But nooooo, all they can think of doing with the mass-produced stable technology is point them at mutants.

Ironically the one time I recall sentinels being used for other stuff was one comic where Wolverine himself pulls some connections to have a trio of decomissioned sentinels programmed to obey him and then he uses them as giant mooks/transport to go fight a bunch of villains. And although they do end up destroyed, at no point do they malfunction or rebel or anything, showing that they're still just machines that can be controlled just fine.

So the constant status quo is very weird with the marvel timeline. It makes sense, and it makes so little sense.

First only 13 years have happened in universe from today with the start of the X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, etc. This is per a Marvel Editor Interview Here, but one of his self appointed jobs is never mention ages of the character and instead let the reader fill in how many years it has been. 58 years of story and only 13 years of change inside of the story.

So yeah perhaps there are giant robots doing farming, but you have to remember that even with all this tech that has greatly advanced in 13 years with Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, Trask Family, etc making that tech available everywhere would still be a bottleneck.

Furthermore the tech they do produced is often being used in foolish ways like hunting mutants and so on instead of raising the common condition of most people around the world.

So to borrow a Game of Thrones reference and applying it to Marvel Comics.

The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace."
He gave a shrug.
"They never are.

But yeah from almost no mutants [mutants who hid instead of revealing themselves] to 17 mutants in 10 years, only for in the last 3 years (per the House of X 2 / Power of X timeline) those 17 million mutants to be down to 200 only for the number to suddenly increase since after the Phoenix reignited the Mutant gene with Avengers vs X-Men.

-----

But yeah the real progress to the Marvel Society would occur if all these brilliant people were actually spreading their peaceful tech around instead of being the trope of "Reed Richards Is Useless."

That is one of the reasons I found House of X #1 so exciting. Those 3 pills that Mutants were sharing with Humans would be society warping and thus unless the tech is suddenly destroyed it means the Marvel world would be slowly shifting to something that makes far more sense with all those superpowers and supertech that exists in 616.

[Tyrant]

Just want to note before I get into this that I hope I don't come off negatively. I do genuinely enjoy the discussion that this series seems to be generating across the internet and this is the place I generally interact with others about this kind of thing. I know I could be wildly wrong in my assumptions, so I hope I don't come across as combative (and I know I have in the past on this site come across that way a time or two). Also, I will mention that after I made that last reply I looked at some of the solicits for upcoming issues and I apparently hadn't noticed that Jean will be using that costume going forward (on the covers at least). So, consider that point dropped from my comments about Jean in the most recent issue.

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1: Considering we see Xavier greeting several mutants, including what appears to be Vulcan(whose been dead for years,) as they emerge for pods, presumably they're alive because of some kind of organic technology.

Also, the thought occurs to me that if Elixir is available, that regenerating Scott's eye would be child's play.

Oh I imagine there are plenty of ways. I meant more that given the very recent history and the ways this diverges from that (Scott's eye, etc) I would think there would be some mention by this point as to the how/why of these differences. Obviously there could still be a reveal (I expect more of them before the end of all of this) addressing it. I just figured it would've been addressed by now.

Side note/question: Did Vulcan die fighting Black Bolt in War of Kings where their battle created the hole into the Cancerverse? If so, how did Black Bolt come back from that?

2: Dozens of people who were canonically dead a week before House of X # 1 was published at confirmed to be alive and active members of the X-Men in the titles that are coming after this event.

What's more logical, that we're seeing them now, or that Hickman did a huge fake-out with the rez only to rez them again later anyway?

I honestly assumed that they would be resurrected somehow in the final issue or two as part of the super long game that Moira is playing. Some kind of reset before she somehow stops the cycle (gives herself the cure she developed maybe?).

Hickman gave us a list of Moira's lives, plotting them all out. If you accept that she faked her death, life ten lines up perfectly with everything we know about her life in 616 and lines up perfectly with what we've seen so far.

I expect everything to go off the rails after this issue. "No more", plus Apocalypse on an upcoming cover leads me to believe that Xavier is about to make a deal with the devil for the wrong reasons. A timeline/life virtually identical to this but with allying with Apocalypse (after letting him know everything) before Orchis becomes an issue, for the purpose of helping to preserve the mutant race as opposed to taking the fight to humanity, could be the more desirable outcome. This issue's end leads me to believe any alliance will be to seek vengeance, which ends in Nimrod eventually (as it always will).

3: I meant life nine, my bad. But the stuff with the Phalanx lines up perfectly with Apocalypse and the X-Men's confrontation against the Man-Machine Supremecay unless you want to make the argument that two separate lives went exactly the same down to the creation of the Chimeras and Ms. Black Brain ending up in the Femtofluid. The only way that works is if Timelines persist after Moira reincarnates, and honestly, there's no reason to assume that they wouldn't.

I admit that there are some potential issues with my theory and that is a big one. I initially thought that they were the same timeline and that the person summoning the Phalanx (don't recall their name) was Moira (after the reveal about her powers). I find that I am having to reassess my outlook with each issue.

So I can't claim to have read every marvel comic ever.

But why after all those decades are sentinels still only used for mutant hunting?

One would expect the regular military to have got their hands in some of those for fighting normal humies.

And if you strip their weapons there would be plenty of civilian uses. Transport, construction, you name it.

Those things can even get on orbit and back on their own, just think what they could do for any space program!

But nooooo, all they can think of doing with the mass-produced stable technology is point them at mutants.

Ironically the one time I recall sentinels being used for other stuff was one comic where Wolverine himself pulls some connections to have a trio of decomissioned sentinels programmed to obey him and then he uses them as giant mooks/transport to go fight a bunch of villains. And although they do end up destroyed, at no point do they malfunction or rebel or anything, showing that they're still just machines that can be controlled just fine.

This is something I have wondered for a while. Or rather, what it would look like, not so much why it doesn't happen. I know the real reason is to keep Marvel close to the real world. It's the same reason why Reed, Stark, Pym, and/or Doom haven't completely revolutionized the world with their inventions. I believe there was a limited series in the late 90's/early 00's that had the base premise being that they had changed the world and the villains teamed up to overthrow the new order. I think it was called Big Town but I could be wrong. Exploring these types of ideas is one thing I love about What Ifs? and the like.

Because X-men is a has-been franchise that just wants to blindly repeat the same stories of its glory days over and over instead of trying anything new and House of X is no different.

I would like to believe that since this story is very focused on the idea of cycles and inevitability that the end goal is to break that cycle.

[deuterio12]

In the main timeline Reed and Stark are mostly greedy bastards that keep their toys to themselves, including having their pact to protect each other's toys when one of them is out of the picture.

Now I recall another comic where the military does manage to buy some supposed old iron suits to use in normal warfare, only for them to be shredded when all the enemy troops are packing vibranium bullets or something, so Stark really being a bastard selling them super obsolete tech.

This is something I have wondered for a while. Or rather, what it would look like, not so much why it doesn't happen. I know the real reason is to keep Marvel close to the real world. It's the same reason why Reed, Stark, Pym, and/or Doom haven't completely revolutionized the world with their inventions. I believe there was a limited series in the late 90's/early 00's that had the base premise being that they had changed the world and the villains teamed up to overthrow the new order. I think it was called Big Town but I could be wrong. Exploring these types of ideas is one thing I love about What Ifs? and the like.

Ah yes Big Town. Well the villains still got their asses kicked at the end, plus Ultron learned the power of friendship while Peter Parker seems to have retired to live on the earnings from his brand name so seems like a better universe all around for most people.

No sentinels in sight however, which is extra weird considering all the mutants besides prof.X are in team villain because reasons so there would be extra reason to develop the mutant-hunting giant robots.

[Tyrant]

In the main timeline Reed and Stark are mostly greedy bastards that keep their toys to themselves, including having their pact to protect each other's toys when one of them is out of the picture.

Now I recall another comic where the military does manage to buy some supposed old iron suits to use in normal warfare, only for them to be shredded when all the enemy troops are packing vibranium bullets or something, so Stark really being a bastard selling them super obsolete tech.



Ah yes Big Town. Well the villains still got their asses kicked at the end, plus Ultron learned the power of friendship while Peter Parker seems to have retired to live on the earnings from his brand name so seems like a better universe all around for most people.

No sentinels in sight however, which is extra weird considering all the mutants besides prof.X are in team villain because reasons so there would be extra reason to develop the mutant-hunting giant robots.

I never actually finished Big Town. Think I only got 2 issues in.

[Reddish Mage]

This is something I have wondered for a while. Or rather, what it would look like, not so much why it doesn't happen. I know the real reason is to keep Marvel close to the real world. It's the same reason why Reed, Stark, Pym, and/or Doom haven't completely revolutionized the world with their inventions. I believe there was a limited series in the late 90's/early 00's that had the base premise being that they had changed the world and the villains teamed up to overthrow the new order. I think it was called Big Town but I could be wrong. Exploring these types of ideas is one thing I love about What Ifs? and the like.

I would like to believe that since this story is very focused on the idea of cycles and inevitability that the end goal is to break that cycle.

Of course the goal of this story is to break the cycle. That's explicitly Moira's and the mutant's mission. Of course, you have to wonder how or if they will get to do this, since what they are suggesting is to solve the central X-men/Brotherhood/human conflict...which is kinda of the main vehicle for X-men stories.

I suppose Mutant-homeland could be made to just work but probably they'll go somewhere else.

I'm not sure where you want to go with technology. Sentinels are a product evil government contractors but Trask, Roxxon, and the like always have this sci-fi tech when it comes to super-villainy but never seem to make the obvious mundane uses that should make them much wealthier without the risks...you know risks of prosecution (at The Hague), risk of attracting Dormammu, potentially triggering a mass extinction, that sort of thing.

When these guys do go for mass technology there's going to be an angle like it turns people into mind-slaves or something.

In the main timeline Reed and Stark are mostly greedy bastards that keep their toys to themselves, including having their pact to protect each other's toys when one of them is out of the picture.

Now I recall another comic where the military does manage to buy some supposed old iron suits to use in normal warfare, only for them to be shredded when all the enemy troops are packing vibranium bullets or something, so Stark really being a bastard selling them super obsolete tech.


Ah yes Big Town. Well the villains still got their asses kicked at the end, plus Ultron learned the power of friendship while Peter Parker seems to have retired to live on the earnings from his brand name so seems like a better universe all around for most people.

No sentinels in sight however, which is extra weird considering all the mutants besides prof.X are in team villain because reasons so there would be extra reason to develop the mutant-hunting giant robots.

Recall though, you said yourself the assumption of Big Town is the HEROES release their tech, while Sentinels are always associated with the villains. However What If's traditionally have to be wrapped up in one story, especially this one since the point is the heroes are building Utopia, so the easy way to do it is to show a happy ending. Also, the series was cut down from six to four issues and very badly edited, so this might have been a lazy way to cut the series short rather than the way the full concept was supposed to end.

EDIT: I'm imaging a brilliant original concept where the technological Utopia is slowly revealed to be Dystopian from the effects of so much advanced technology running wild and the ending reflects that the world is better without Ultron etc.

If you imagine a world in which Trask and other evil corporations technology are all over the place you are looking into something that looks more like Days of Future Past.

[deuterio12]

Recall though, you said yourself the assumption of Big Town is the HEROES release their tech, while Sentinels are always associated with the villains.

But well, every time the X-men beat a sentinel attack they end with a bunch of leftover wrecks that shouldn't be too hard to salvage, in particular considering all the super scientists they have in their ranks, and that often the sentinels didn't suffer much worst than getting their head separated from the body.

Would be really interesting if recycled sentinels were actually used as sentinels to support the X-men bases and whatnot (actually wasn't there some alternate reality created by Wanda or something where mutants were the rulers and they were using sentinels as their mooks?)

However What If's traditionally have to be wrapped up in one story, especially this one since the point is the heroes are building Utopia, so the easy way to do it is to show a happy ending. Also, the series was cut down from six to four issues and very badly edited, so this might have been a lazy way to cut the series short rather than the way the full concept was supposed to end.

EDIT: I'm imaging a brilliant original concept where the technological Utopia is slowly revealed to be Dystopian from the effects of so much advanced technology running wild and the ending reflects that the world is better without Ultron etc.

To be fair not all the citizens of Big Town are happy with the tech utopia, the villains make use of civilian collaborators who want to go back to the "good old days" and the Red skull even raises a cult of Odin since Thor is flying all over the place.

Although the villains have been forced to become more civilized, being forced to hide behind Doom's diplomatic immunity. Even evil Hulk is suddenly all of a team player.

If you imagine a world in which Trask and other evil corporations technology are all over the place you are looking into something that looks more like Days of Future Past.

Why? After germany was defeated in WWII, a good chunk of their advanced tech was put to great use for society. Commercial jetplanes, rockets to get stuff into space, you name it.

[Reddish Mage]

Why? After germany was defeated in WWII, a good chunk of their advanced tech was put to great use for society. Commercial jetplanes, rockets to get stuff into space, you name it.

I dispute how much credit Germany gets (former Nazi scientists worked with American counterparts to further refine and develop the technology).

Moreover, the scenario I gave was what if the VILLAIN CORPORATIONS were to release tech to the general public. It’ll be a way to create a dystopian future through technology because that is exactly what the villains do with tech, they aren’t interested in the mundane applications.

I’d the heroes or someone else took that military tech to be repurposed and mass produced we could get Big Town Utopia again or a new Ultron situation, and I’d put money on the latter.

Utopia is boring, dystopia and technology run amuck is where all the action is. You want an in-universe explanation for that?

Read Future Shock.

[Anteros]

I'm having a real hard time caring what's happening in the alternate plotlines. The main storyline about the core team is interesting, and I want to know what happens there. The rest I couldn't care less about.

[Ramza00]

I'm having a real hard time caring what's happening in the alternate plotlines. The main storyline about the core team is interesting, and I want to know what happens there. The rest I couldn't care less about.

Power of X 0, 2, and 3 are merely setup and world building for the main HoXPoX timeline of 1. Yin and Yang they compliment each other nicely.

I like the other timelines but that is me.

Anteros if you prefer the HoX story you are in luck for HoX issue 5 is supposed to have a big development concerning it is colored red on the chart.

[Rater202]

For the record, mutants on Krakoa have been mentioned in both Marvel 1000(a thing that is a celebration of 80 years of MArvel history, a thing to weld some bits of canon together, and something to set up future storylines) and Invaders(Roxxon wants the drug that Namor is using to turn humans into Atlanteans in a misguided attempt to save the world because he did gone cray-cray on the grounds that it can turn anything into anything. They want to use it to turn their human employees into mutants so that they can gain access to Krakoa) so yeah, this is the main timeline we're seeing.

[Ramza00]

So Powers of X4 spoilers

Spoiler: Crossover?

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So someone noticed the text that Doug is speaking to Krakoa is using the same font that is used in Limbo in New Mutants. Plus the sword that split Krakoa into two looks like a soulsword.

Does this mean we are going to have the future Excalibur deal with Limbo? But if so what property? The Excalibur sword and Apocalypse is part of that future Excalibur run but Magik is part of New Mutants who are probably going into space?

[Ramza00]

And now the new normal.

Conflict will return for this is a Society, but a Society also has Cooperation.

[Man on Fire]

And now the new normal.

Conflict will return for this is a Society, but a Society also has Cooperation.

Care to translate that into something less pretentious?

[Ramza00]

Care to translate that into something less pretentious?

Spoilers

Spoiler: House of X 5

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So House of X 5 issue named is "Society." We get this from Powers of X4 and their issue text that was a cypher.
Magneto does an info dump to Lorna, his daughter, about one of the good things Humanity did was stop being a hunter and gatherer and start being a society for it allowed more cooperation. This in turn is a reference that humankind hunted the mutants and even when the mutants gathered there was not true cooperation in a "synchronized" kind of way.

Throughout the issue we see a resurrection machine caused by the mutant powers of the 5 X-Men [Goldballs, Tempest, Elixir, Proteus, Hope], plus a Telepath with the Cerebro machine. Currently the Telepath is Xavier but nothing limits it to specifically Xavier he is just a powerful telepath and he is used to working with Cerebro.

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This is the new normal now Man on Fire with Resurrection being possible if there is cooperation (for other mutants in theory could do similar feats if they cooperate, or more traditional cloning) plus Cerebro doing Mutant Memory downloads.

And at the end of the issue after the UN vote all these villains literally entered Krokoa and joined this mutant society. I postulate this peace will not last, but we will get a new normal of a mixture of cooperation and conflict for this is the nature of society.

A plan that requires perfect cooperation, even to resurrect the dead will eventually destabilize somewhat and you no longer get your Garden of Eden or the dozen of other mythologies Hickman has referenced in HoXPoX. Yet at the same time I expect more mutant cooperation to do big things that will have lasting setting changing effects. I think Marvel is for at least the next few years tired of writting stories of an eternal status quo where Mutants are always running from the next big thing that causes them to be "hunted" not just persecuted but hunted on the brink of extinction.

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Care to translate that into something less pretentious?

But whatever Man on Fire, I am pretentious according to you for I am referencing the themes and content of the specific new chapter. It is not my fault that Hickman literally named this chapter Society out of text with the issue name, and it is not my fault that Hickman uses the voice of Magneto to invoke these themes. I am the pretentious one

[HandofShadows]

So, Hickman is steal... er BORROWING stuff from Schlock Mercenary now? And looks like he didn't even think to examine it the way Schlock did either.

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Yean, these look like a bunch of copies, not the originals and there is no Tagon around to make it clear to people. In general I don't see this ending well at all. The X-Men are helping monstrous mass murders and acting like humanity inferior. Power does not make one better than others. And a mutation just gives power, it does not make them better people. Honestly their self righteous, superior arrogance makes me dislike all of them a great deal. Right now the X-Men have become a step back, not a step forward.

[Rater202]

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Spider-Man and his spin-offs have established that a sufficiently perfect clone of a dead person will inherit the soul and memories of the original(clone Conspiracy, the New U clones are proper resurrections which is later confirmed by Death herself in Scarlet Spider and Doctor Strange in Spider-Man, referring to Ben Reilly and Billy Connors respectively.)

It also establishes that it's possible to catch someone's soul and upload it into a prepared backup body using technology.

So these could be legitimate resurrections, we just don't know if the bodies are sufficiently perfect copies or if Cerebro is advanced enough to backup souls or just minds.

The "mutants superior" thing is a direct response to the twenty or so genocides in the last ten years. By now it's been proven than most humans are incapable of living in peace with mutants due to the frothing irrational rage that mutants invoke in a small majority of humans.

And teaming up with the mutant villains is a political move. If they'd left Sabretooth to rot in an American prison or forbid Selene from claiming Krakoan citizenship, that would establish a precedent that could be exploited to prevent, say, a mutant kid in America from being able to emigrate to Krakoa in the future or from taking advantage of the safeguards against mutants getting screwed over.

[HandofShadows]

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The "mutants superior" thing is a direct response to the twenty or so genocides in the last ten years. By now it's been proven than most humans are incapable of living in peace with mutants due to the frothing irrational rage that mutants invoke in a small majority of humans.

And teaming up with the mutant villains is a political move. If they'd left Sabretooth to rot in an American prison or forbid Selene from claiming Krakoan citizenship, that would establish a precedent that could be exploited to prevent, say, a mutant kid in America from being able to emigrate to Krakoa in the future or from taking advantage of the safeguards against mutants getting screwed over.

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Which totally ignores all the mutants who felt superior to humans and felt that mutants should rule humanity or wipe them out or just have fun killing them. Which is what has fed the so called "frothing irrational rage". The fact is there is a real reason for that so called "irrational rage". Hi there Xorn, Magneto, Apocalypse, Sabertooth, and soooo many others who murdered untold scores of humans or threatened the entire planet in some way. And more than one of the mutant genocides' was causes by mutants. Just ask the Morlocks. Even Cassandra Nova had mutant origins. As for the political move, it basically said to the rest of the world "mutants don't have to follow the worlds laws because mutants are better". Mutants can do anything they want to any human and get away scott free. The X-Men just proved that the humans "frothing in rage" were right all along. The X-Men have become what they were fighting against.

[Rater202]

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Think of it this way.

The world has long since established that they can and will hold all mutants responsible for the actions of a minority of asshats.

By cutting a deal with the State's department to get all mutants in US territory Krokoan citizenship and all Krokoan citizens diplomatic immunity, they are making sure that a mutant who gets arrested on a minor or non existant charge won't get screwed over by a cop, prosecutor, or judge who happens to be anti-mutant.

By enforcing that deal even wit SAbretooth, they send the message that they will enforce it for every mutant.

I seriously doubt that this is a permanent situation. It's just meant to ensure that there isn't another Operation: Zero Tolerance in the near future.

And allowing the mutant criminals to move to Kroakoa, as long as they agree to follow it's laws, shows that there are no exceptions and that if other nations don't want their mutants that Krokoa is more than willing to gie them homes.

If you go back and reread the issue with Sabretooth's trial, the Cuckoos say outright that it's fine if they leave him chained up when they hand him over. This is real diplomatic immunity, not the kind you see in Hollywood, Creed's getting tried in Krokoa for his crimes on American soil and presumably the same will happen to any mutant criminals that refuse to mend their ways or toe the new party line.

Pre-Existing mutant supremacists are utterly irrelevant. The X-Men have adopted a policy of isolation and nationalism because the irrational hatred of mutants has rendered coexistence impossible so they have created their own civilization where mutants can take pride in who and what they are instead of living in fear of a society that hates them for things they can't control.

They're taking it a bit too far, but still. It makes sense.

[Narkis]

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Which totally ignores all the mutants who felt superior to humans and felt that mutants should rule humanity or wipe them out or just have fun killing them. Which is what has fed the so called "frothing irrational rage". The fact is there is a real reason for that so called "irrational rage". Hi there Xorn, Magneto, Apocalypse, Sabertooth, and soooo many others who murdered untold scores of humans or threatened the entire planet in some way. And more than one of the mutant genocides' was causes by mutants. Just ask the Morlocks. Even Cassandra Nova had mutant origins. As for the political move, it basically said to the rest of the world "mutants don't have to follow the worlds laws because mutants are better". Mutants can do anything they want to any human and get away scott free. The X-Men just proved that the humans "frothing in rage" were right all along. The X-Men have become what they were fighting against.

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There are good mutants and bad mutants. When the bad mutants try to conquer the world, the good mutants stop them. Every single time. But when the Purifiers or the Sentinels or the Inhuman death cloud roll over, they make no such distinction. They come for every mutant. Something like 99% of the world's mutant population was killed in the past couple decades. Millions of innocents. All the villains you mention, combined, don't have a bodycount that high. And the humans of the world have never lifted a finger to help. Hell, they sided with the Inhumans and their precious death cloud. At what point does it become reasonable to cooperate with the lesser evil to fight a greater common enemy? Cause I think the X-Men were past this point a couple genocides ago.

I haven't read the new series yet. But if it does put an end to the unending misery, that'll be more than enough to turn me back into a fan.

edit: I only hope this doesn't end up like the last time they tried building a mutant nation. I don't think I'll give Marvel another chance if we have another Genosha at our hands.

[Ramza00]

I will try to find time to write this, elaborating more, in the next 12 hours, but Hickman I think, is purposefully creating two orthogonal conflicts going on right now (Mutants vs Mankind and Machine, plus Mutants vs Mutant Society) and the source of these two conflicts are inescapable ^{they are the nature of Human reality and what is means to be human} due to the Concept of Dunbar's Number, except Hickman does not call it Dunbar's Number but instead 6 levels of Intelligence.

We are given 3 levels of Planetary Intelligence X^0=1, X^1=10, X^2=100 to 10,000

• Machine ( 1 ),
• Hive ( 10 ),
• Intelligence ( 100 to 10,000. )

And then after the 10,000 level there is Galactic Intelligence of X^4=10 thousand, X^5=100 thousand and X^6= 1 million.

• Technarch (tens of thousands)
• Worldmind (hundreds of thousands)
• Phalanx (millions)

Machine, Hive, Intelligence maps nicely onto

• Bands of about 30 people to 50.
• Cultural Lineage Groups / Kin of about 100 to 200 people.
• Tribes of 500 to 2500 people.

And groups larger than 2500 people are no longer individualized relationships but instead "cultural relationships" as part of a greater "society" where what you give and take is abstract and not individualized materially with a precise accounting that someone is keeping a spreadsheet record of. You need things like abstract laws, religious rituals, and so on.

If I am correct this subject matter is going to make lots of people uncomfortable, lets say a random number I am crafting out of whole cloth 1/3rd of people are going to be really angry and say they are ruining X-Men for the X-Men are no longer sympathetic and they are either grey villains or black villians. And these 1/3rd of readers who dislike it are going to be very outspoken, louder than other fans in voicing their displeasure, for they see it as a morality issue and they want to condemn immorality.

[HandofShadows]

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There are good mutants and bad mutants. When the bad mutants try to conquer the world, the good mutants stop them. Every single time. But when the Purifiers or the Sentinels or the Inhuman death cloud roll over, they make no such distinction. They come for every mutant. Something like 99% of the world's mutant population was killed in the past couple decades. Millions of innocents. All the villains you mention, combined, don't have a bodycount that high. And the humans of the world have never lifted a finger to help. Hell, they sided with the Inhumans and their precious death cloud. At what point does it become reasonable to cooperate with the lesser evil to fight a greater common enemy? Cause I think the X-Men were past this point a couple genocides ago.

I haven't read the new series yet. But if it does put an end to the unending misery, that'll be more than enough to turn me back into a fan.

edit: I only hope this doesn't end up like the last time they tried building a mutant nation. I don't think I'll give Marvel another chance if we have another Genosha at our hands.

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So, two wrongs make a right then? The people at the United Nations did go killing mutants that we know of, but Frost was quite willing (and happy) to take over their minds and turn them into slaves or puppets. What is the difference between the so call "superior" mutants and the mutant haters? Nothing. As for the mutant body count many of those where causes by mutants themselves, but mostly Casandra Nova who only existed because of Xavier. Many mutants lost their powers to the Scarlet witch, another mutant who *remade the entire planet*. The Purifiers and Sentinels really don't have that huge a body count. Certainly nothing close to what old Blue Lips has done over the centuries.

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Think of it this way.

The world has long since established that they can and will hold all mutants responsible for the actions of a minority of asshats.

By cutting a deal with the State's department to get all mutants in US territory Krokoan citizenship and all Krokoan citizens diplomatic immunity, they are making sure that a mutant who gets arrested on a minor or non existant charge won't get screwed over by a cop, prosecutor, or judge who happens to be anti-mutant.

By enforcing that deal even wit SAbretooth, they send the message that they will enforce it for every mutant.

I seriously doubt that this is a permanent situation. It's just meant to ensure that there isn't another Operation: Zero Tolerance in the near future.

And allowing the mutant criminals to move to Kroakoa, as long as they agree to follow it's laws, shows that there are no exceptions and that if other nations don't want their mutants that Krokoa is more than willing to gie them homes.

If you go back and reread the issue with Sabretooth's trial, the Cuckoos say outright that it's fine if they leave him chained up when they hand him over. This is real diplomatic immunity, not the kind you see in Hollywood, Creed's getting tried in Krokoa for his crimes on American soil and presumably the same will happen to any mutant criminals that refuse to mend their ways or toe the new party line.

Pre-Existing mutant supremacists are utterly irrelevant. The X-Men have adopted a policy of isolation and nationalism because the irrational hatred of mutants has rendered coexistence impossible so they have created their own civilization where mutants can take pride in who and what they are instead of living in fear of a society that hates them for things they can't control.

They're taking it a bit too far, but still. It makes sense.

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Do you really think they are going to charge Sabertooth with anything after they let old blue lips and a ton of other anti-human mass murderers onto the island? *If* they keep Sabertooth locked up it's because the don't like him. Nothing to do with law or justice which is the point. The mutants have placed themselves above everyone else laws and the *possibility* that someone who hates mutants will abuse their power. And it does not matter that maybe the mutant was abusing their power first. And as I said the people with the irrational hatred of mutants are match by the mutants with an irrational hatred of humans. "Mutants have established that they can and will hold all humans responsible for the actions of a minority of asshats."

[Rater202]

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1: Old Blue Lips had a face turn just before this series started. Read Age of X-man.

2: Did you perhaps read the recent Uncanny X-Men series? After the majority of the X-Men go missing and are presumed dead, immediately ONE, who it should be noted were initially created in part to protect mutants, starts kidnapping mutants for experiments. The united states government starts issuing 100% mandatory no exceptions "vaccines" that are meant to stop mutant children's X-gene from activating. Being a mutant in the United States was outlawed shortly after the X-Men vanished, with mutants being locked up, murdered, or in the ase of children deported(without their parents) while politicians lead hate-rallies talking about how all mutants were murderous criminals.

It got bad enough that Captain America, Winter Soldier, and Black Widow were sitting outside the crowd at a Rally just waiting for it to erupt into violence.

Emma Frost was kidnapped and had a bomb in her head and made to use the Hellfire club to round up other mutants for imprisonment and death.

The remaining X-Men were forced to kidnap and blackmail Beast's evil counterpart from Age of Apocalypse to be able to fix what ONE did to the New Mutants. They were so desperate for help just to survive what was happening that they fell for the ONE-enslaved Mystique's "I'm Captain America, I'm here to help" scheme hook line and sinker.

Xavier isn't worried about the possibility that human laws will be abused by mutant haters to hurt mutants.

He knows for an absolute fact that they can and will if they don't have something stopping them.

[Narkis]

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So, two wrongs make a right then? The people at the United Nations did go killing mutants that we know of, but Frost was quite willing (and happy) to take over their minds and turn them into slaves or puppets. What is the difference between the so call "superior" mutants and the mutant haters? Nothing. As for the mutant body count many of those where causes by mutants themselves, but mostly Casandra Nova who only existed because of Xavier. Many mutants lost their powers to the Scarlet witch, another mutant who *remade the entire planet*. The Purifiers and Sentinels really don't have that huge a body count. Certainly nothing close to what old Blue Lips has done over the centuries.

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Cassandra Nova did nothing by herself. She just used yet another sniveling Trask descendant to push the button, and the human-engineered, human-built Sentinels did all the killing. They could easily have been activated by Stryker or random Purifier #345 or any number of other mutant haters, and it would have made no difference whatsoever. The weapon was there, ready to be used at any time.

Wanda's case is very much different: A)she was kinda nuts at the time, and B) she didn't kill anyone. She depowered the mutants and left them indistinguishable from baseline humans, ready and many of them willing to reintegrate into human society. And then the Purifier mobs came, took advantage of the Mutants being powerless, and started killing them. Hell, they even bombed a school bus of innocent depowered children just to drive the point home.

You've also glossed over the Terrigen mists situation, where Cyclops and Emma Frost were painted as worse than Hitler for trying to save their people from a LITERAL DEATH CLOUD, rolling over the Earth, giving every mutant who breathed it a slow and agonizing death. The humans didn't lift a finger to help them. And it took a lot of fighting, and a lot of (mutand) deaths before Medusa, alone, realised that maybe, just maybe, it was a bad thing to allow the death cloud to keep killing mutants. And even then the mutants were painted as being in the wrong!

"Old Blue Lips" isn't remotely comparable. He's been active for a long time, but he's done nothing worse than enslave a country and and fan a few conflicts. Bad, yes, but not as bad as killing millions. I won't dispute he has the capacity for being worse, as the Age of Apocalypse can attest, but he was stopped, by fellow mutants more often than not.

You see two wrongs making a right. You see people trying to defend themselves and their loved ones from genocide as being no better than those who want to murder them all. The real world comparison would write itself if not forbidden by forum rules.

Meanwhile, I see people defending their fundamental right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with any means at their disposal that has a chance of working. I see heroes and villains teaming up to fight a common existential threat. And you can't possible tell me that heroes should never cooperate with villains, no matter what, or they're just as bad as them. I don't think there has ever been a hero who hasn't cooperated with a villain at some point, other than Batman who famously never compromises.

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Do you really think they are going to charge Sabertooth with anything after they let old blue lips and a ton of other anti-human mass murderers onto the island? *If* they keep Sabertooth locked up it's because the don't like him. Nothing to do with law or justice which is the point. The mutants have placed themselves above everyone else laws and the *possibility* that someone who hates mutants will abuse their power. And it does not matter that maybe the mutant was abusing their power first. And as I said the people with the irrational hatred of mutants are match by the mutants with an irrational hatred of humans. "Mutants have established that they can and will hold all humans responsible for the actions of a minority of asshats."

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Difference is, the minority of mutant asshats have ALWAYS been opposed by the good mutants, and have NEVER succeeded in genociding the humans. The minority of human asshats have NEVER been opposed by the good humans, and have ALMOST succeeded in genociding the mutants.

I don't know what's the deal with Sabertooth, specifically. But I admire your ability to kafkatrap. No matter what the mutants do next with him, they'll be in the wrong. You've already decided they're the bad guys just because they want to keep breathing free.

[HandofShadows]

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1: Old Blue Lips had a face turn just before this series started. Read Age of X-man.

2: Did you perhaps read the recent Uncanny X-Men series? After the majority of the X-Men go missing and are presumed dead, immediately ONE, who it should be noted were initially created in part to protect mutants, starts kidnapping mutants for experiments. The united states government starts issuing 100% mandatory no exceptions "vaccines" that are meant to stop mutant children's X-gene from activating. Being a mutant in the United States was outlawed shortly after the X-Men vanished, with mutants being locked up, murdered, or in the ase of children deported(without their parents) while politicians lead hate-rallies talking about how all mutants were murderous criminals.

It got bad enough that Captain America, Winter Soldier, and Black Widow were sitting outside the crowd at a Rally just waiting for it to erupt into violence.

Emma Frost was kidnapped and had a bomb in her head and made to use the Hellfire club to round up other mutants for imprisonment and death.

The remaining X-Men were forced to kidnap and blackmail Beast's evil counterpart from Age of Apocalypse to be able to fix what ONE did to the New Mutants. They were so desperate for help just to survive what was happening that they fell for the ONE-enslaved Mystique's "I'm Captain America, I'm here to help" scheme hook line and sinker.

Xavier isn't worried about the possibility that human laws will be abused by mutant haters to hurt mutants.

He knows for an absolute fact that they can and will if they don't have something stopping them.

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You clearly didn't read Age Of Apocalypse, House of M or learn much about the future Cable comes from. In all of those realities mutants are on the brink of or have just about wiped out humanity. So the threat that mutants will wipe out humanity is as real as humans wiping out mutants. The point you miss is that the X-Men are doing the same things their enemies are doing and acting totally superior and arrogant about it. It's hypocrisy 101 and THAT'S why I think the X-Men have fallen. IF they showed any real regret about the lengths they have been pushed to that would be something different. It boils down to a mutant asking "Is there any good in humanity?" Like they are Orcs from a D&D game. On a side note, didn't it ever occur to you that there was something very wrong with all the anti-mutant hysteria coming out of left field and being hyper extreme? Like someone is playing games (Mind games)?

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Cassandra Nova did nothing by herself. She just used yet another sniveling Trask descendant to push the button, and the human-engineered, human-built Sentinels did all the killing. They could easily have been activated by Stryker or random Purifier #345 or any number of other mutant haters, and it would have made no difference whatsoever. The weapon was there, ready to be used at any time.

Wanda's case is very much different: A)she was kinda nuts at the time, and B) she didn't kill anyone. She depowered the mutants and left them indistinguishable from baseline humans, ready and many of them willing to reintegrate into human society. And then the Purifier mobs came, took advantage of the Mutants being powerless, and started killing them. Hell, they even bombed a school bus of innocent depowered children just to drive the point home.

You've also glossed over the Terrigen mists situation, where Cyclops and Emma Frost were painted as worse than Hitler for trying to save their people from a LITERAL DEATH CLOUD, rolling over the Earth, giving every mutant who breathed it a slow and agonizing death. The humans didn't lift a finger to help them. And it took a lot of fighting, and a lot of (mutand) deaths before Medusa, alone, realised that maybe, just maybe, it was a bad thing to allow the death cloud to keep killing mutants. And even then the mutants were painted as being in the wrong!

"Old Blue Lips" isn't remotely comparable. He's been active for a long time, but he's done nothing worse than enslave a country and and fan a few conflicts. Bad, yes, but not as bad as killing millions. I won't dispute he has the capacity for being worse, as the Age of Apocalypse can attest, but he was stopped, by fellow mutants more often than not.

You see two wrongs making a right. You see people trying to defend themselves and their loved ones from genocide as being no better than those who want to murder them all. The real world comparison would write itself if not forbidden by forum rules.

Meanwhile, I see people defending their fundamental right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with any means at their disposal that has a chance of working. I see heroes and villains teaming up to fight a common existential threat. And you can't possible tell me that heroes should never cooperate with villains, no matter what, or they're just as bad as them. I don't think there has ever been a hero who hasn't cooperated with a villain at some point, other than Batman who famously never compromises.

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Difference is, the minority of mutant asshats have ALWAYS been opposed by the good mutants, and have NEVER succeeded in genociding the humans. The minority of human asshats have NEVER been opposed by the good humans, and have ALMOST succeeded in genociding the mutants.

I don't know what's the deal with Sabertooth, specifically. But I admire your ability to kafkatrap. No matter what the mutants do next with him, they'll be in the wrong. You've already decided they're the bad guys just because they want to keep breathing free.

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You claim I am making the X-Men out as evil, (which I am not) but you are trying to make humans out as evil. Nova actually DID "push the button" because Trask was following her orders, just before she killed him and ordered the Sentinels to attack Genosha. Given her mental powers are equal to Xavier's, Trask was basically her puppet anyway. Before that the Wild Sentinels were basically doing nothing and everyone was just happy to leave them there. Did you read House of M? Wanda rewrote the *entire planet* and made mutants the leaders and humans at best 2nd class citizens. I don't know how you missed what I was talking about. Oh, yeah, remember Onslaught? I wonder what it's plans were for humanity? Oh, yeah genocide and he had the help of Sentinels to do it.

Heroes' have fought anti-mutant humans, just not as much as the X-Men have. But how often have the X-Men fought Kang, the Thinker or the Skrulls? Not that often either. Does that mean that the X-Men don't care about those villain's? No, it's just not their "area" (or what readers what to see).

And to Sabertooth. There was one VERY easy way of dealing with him. Go in say they COULD get Sabertooth out, or actually get Sabertooth out and then turn around and put him back into custody. Nope, they couldn't do that, they couldn't do the right thing because they were to busy showing off their power. To busy being arrogant and self righteous. As I said above "The point you miss is that the X-Men are doing the same things their enemies are doing and acting totally superior and arrogant about it. It's hypocrisy 101 and THAT'S why I think the X-Men have fallen. IF they showed any real regret about the lengths they have been pushed to that would be something different."

[Rater202]

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Age of Apocalypse was the result of aNuclear War that Apocalypse started in a universe where Charles Xavier died before forming the X-Men and house of M was the result of a crazed Reality Warper.

They are not potential futures of the main timeline and have no bearing anything in the main timeline.

Beyond that, it's only evil mutants who try to wipe out humans. Not even all Evil Mutants.

Seriously, Magneto's plans when he was in his world domination phase involved humans being second class citizens at worst. The one-time Magneto actually tried killing humans en mass, it was quickly revealed that it was an imposter.

Trying to genocide mutants because one mutant tried to genocide humans only kills innocent people. the people who actually commited the crimes are never among the ones who get rounded up or killed.

And that's always the result. Apocalypse or Selene or someone will try to wipe out humans or take over the world, the X-Men will stop them, and humanity responds by pointing at the evil mutant, saying "look, they're dangerous," and an anti-mutant measure happens and the X-Men are rewarded for saving the world by having to try to survive a genocide and they're probably losing at least one member or a kid from the school.

It's reasonable to feel (morally) superior to the people who respond to you saving their lives by trying to kill you. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twenty god damn times and you can go screw yourself."

Also, again, if they let Sabretooth stay in the human prison it would establish a precedent for ignoring Krkoan diplomatic immunity.

They flat out say it's okay if they don't unchain Sabretooth before they hand him over, which is basically saying that he's going to be tried and imprisoned on Krokoa.