OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread

[Tvtyrant]

Not so much...Iron Heart Surge requires a standard action, so you can only use it on your turn. Baleful polymorph disables your special abilities, being mind controlled complicates things because your controlled mind might not chose to active the maneuver (especially with competition over your standard action), and your imploded corpse can't take actions (even if it could, being killed by implosion is an instantaneous effect and Iron Heart Surge only works on effects with a duration of at least one round).

It's core to the weirdness of Iron Heart Surge: most of the things it seems intended for (stunning) complicate/prevent taking the action to use it, whereas it applies just fine to stuff that doesn't make a whole lot of sense (antimagic field).

The classic is to combine it with Mad Foam Eager, which means it is better for Belker then Roy anyway.

Getting so angry you ignore all status ailments is one of the cooler Barbarian tricks.

[Wackd]

The "Belkar ascends to Godhood" theory is great and I almost want to buy it.

Unfortunately, Gods presumably get birthday cakes.

[Sloanzilla]

Well, that's a lie.

[Schroeswald]

Why wouldn't gods have birthday cake? Belkar is perfectly allowed to celebrate as many birthdays as he wants.

[The MunchKING]

The "Belkar ascends to Godhood" theory is great and I almost want to buy it.

Unfortunately, Gods presumably get birthday cakes.

I would think most of them wouldn't care about their Birthdays, what with being immortal and all.

Also you get to name days of the week after yourself so EVERY week has a party day for you in it. No need to have birthday cake when you're having ME-day cake!!

[Peelee]

The "Belkar ascends to Godhood" theory is great and I almost want to buy it.

Unfortunately, Gods presumably get birthday cakes.

Also i highly doubt anyone would worship Belkar. The Dark One got a year's worth of death in a concerted army raging over his loss. Belkar will have a handful of people who may or may not even miss him. Not exactly ascension-worthy, I'd say.

[Schroeswald]

Also i highly doubt anyone would worship Belkar. The Dark One got a year's worth of death in a concerted army raging over his loss. Belkar will have a handful of people who may or may not even miss him. Not exactly ascension-worthy, I'd say.

I feel like people took the wrong lesson from TDO, presumably the elves didn't raise people by murdering a bunch of orcs or whatever, the point was how much they loved him and worshipped him, not that he cause people to die.

[The MunchKING]

The shedding of blood and souls is a very traditional way for Dark Powers to ascend in fiction though...

[Manji]

I would think most of them wouldn't care about their Birthdays, what with being immortal and all.

Also you get to name days of the week after yourself so EVERY week has a party day for you in it. No need to have birthday cake when you're having ME-day cake!!

{scrubbed}

[kiapet]

Xykon. There is a reason V lost.

I don't usually like to participate in nitty-gritty prophesy discussions, but I feel like this statement misrepresents the meaning of that scene. Xykon did not beat V because he had more arcane power than them. V was wielding the arcane might of two epic-level magic users while Xykon was wielding that of one- in terms of raw arcane power, V had him dead to rights. The point of Xykon's speech about how "power is power" wasn't that he had more magic power than V in that moment, it was that power can take many different forms. For that fight, Xykon's power advantage took the form of:

• Magical traps that robbed V of their surprise round
• Two brilliant minions casting divination spells and shouting out advice
• The knowledge and experience to use his toolset to its fullest extent and to exploit V's weaknesses
• The strength score to be able to smoosh V with a Very Big Rock, and crush people's windpipes with his fingers
• And of course, a +6 racial bonus to Listen checks

Heck, the fact that V and O'Chul beat Xykon AFTER V lost their ultimate arcane power and barely had two spells left shows how little arcane power levels actually mattered to the outcome of that fight.

[JackJin]

Also i highly doubt anyone would worship Belkar. The Dark One got a year's worth of death in a concerted army raging over his loss. Belkar will have a handful of people who may or may not even miss him. Not exactly ascension-worthy, I'd say.

Perhaps not as a good god. But the way Thor described it doesn't exactly imply worship has to be positive. (Helya alone is proof of that.) What matters is that they're being thought of at all, both in life and death. Belkar's managed to get so many people pissed at him the Oracle got together just enough Kobolds together to legally constitute a town. If they were told why they were living there, that's a thing. There's no way Belkar's corpse-screaming moment at Azure City didn't get more than a few heads turning. Even in the City of Blood he easily managed to get everyone in the arena immediately recognizing him as the 'villain' of the bunch.

My point (in this discussion I'm only moderately believing feasible, but find fun) is that godhood is not predicated on people being on their knees, praying to you a whole lot. Having an army screaming for your blood in furious anger or citizens trembling every night praying you don't find them is 'prayer' just the same, so it seems to me anyway. If everywhere you go you make people mad at you, they KNOW you. Everyone Belkar kills is probably going to remember him pretty damn strongly in the afterlife... And he's pretty hard to ignore when he does kill them, making their dedication strong.

Tbc I don't know if this theory is really, actually plausible or not, but I mean... Evil gods have to get their start in a Pantheon SOMEHOW, right? And it's sure as heck is not going to be by making the people like you a whole bunch.

[Peelee]

I feel like people took the wrong lesson from TDO, presumably the elves didn't raise people by murdering a bunch of orcs or whatever, the point was how much they loved him and worshipped him, not that he cause people to die.

I'm not saying that's the only way; I'm just saying that ascending to Godhood likely requires a large amount of dedication from mortals, and we have no reason whatsoever to suspect anyone will commit any sort of sustained or concentrated dedication to Belkar.

[Schroeswald]

Perhaps not as a good god. But the way Thor described it doesn't exactly imply worship has to be positive. (Helya alone is proof of that.) What matters is that they're being thought of at all, both in life and death. Belkar's managed to get so many people pissed at him the Oracle got together just enough Kobolds together to legally constitute a town. If they were told why they were living there, that's a thing. There's no way Belkar's corpse-screaming moment at Azure City didn't get more than a few heads turning. Even in the City of Blood he easily managed to get everyone in the arena immediately recognizing him as the 'villain' of the bunch.

My point (in this discussion I'm only moderately believing feasible, but find fun) is that godhood is not predicated on people being on their knees, praying to you a whole lot. Having an army screaming for your blood in furious anger or citizens trembling every night praying you don't find them is 'prayer' just the same, so it seems to me anyway. If everywhere you go you make people mad at you, they KNOW you. Everyone Belkar kills is probably going to remember him pretty damn strongly in the afterlife... And he's pretty hard to ignore when he does kill them, making their dedication strong.

Tbc I don't know if this theory is really, actually plausible or not, but I mean... Evil gods have to get their start in a Pantheon SOMEHOW, right? And it's sure as heck is not going to be by making the people like you a whole bunch.

That’s exactly how TDO (an almost certainly Evil god) was raised, every evil cleric seems to believe their god is a great protector of them, I personally wouldn’t feel that Belkar saved me.

I'm not saying that's the only way; I'm just saying that ascending to Godhood likely requires a large amount of dedication from mortals, and we have no reason whatsoever to suspect anyone will commit any sort of sustained or concentrated dedication to Belkar.

Oh no, I was agreeing with you, just trying to add on to it.

[JackJin]

That’s exactly how TDO (an almost certainly Evil god) was raised, every evil cleric seems to believe their god is a great protector of them, I personally wouldn’t feel that Belkar saved me.

Alright, but, just for a second, imagine TDO is to his pantheon and clerics a "good" god. At least, good to them. Official evil alignment aside, TDO rose in a manner most would call heroic. I'm suggesting a villainous rise, relative.

Besides. To use your tagline, I can't imagine any better payoff for Belkar's downright iconic declaration he is, without question, a sexy, shoeless God of War.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I...never actually realized that Roy was skipping out on his magic items to prove something with his family sword.

Belkar is more attentive than I am, at least.

[Schroeswald]

Alright, but, just for a second, imagine TDO is to his pantheon and clerics a "good" god. At least, good to them. Official evil alignment aside, TDO rose in a manner most would call heroic. I'm suggesting a villainous rise, relative.

Besides. To use your tagline, I can't imagine any better payoff for Belkar's downright iconic declaration he is, without question, a sexy, shoeless God of War.

It feels like a worshippers see who they worship as “good”, someone who helps them succeed (Loki gets Hilgya to Valhalla, Hel saves them from death, Nergal gives some mummies, even if all of these are false they still show what their worshippers think of them), and no one feels like Belkar helps them.

Also, I have a tag line? What’s my tag line, when did I get it and are you sure I didn’t steal it?

[Peelee]

Oh no, I was agreeing with you, just trying to add on to it.

Whoops! I an not a smart man.

Alright, but, just for a second, imagine TDO is to his pantheon and clerics a "good" god. At least, good to them. Official evil alignment aside, TDO rose in a manner most would call heroic. I'm suggesting a villainous rise, relative.

Besides. To use your tagline, I can't imagine any better payoff for Belkar's downright iconic declaration he is, without question, a sexy, shoeless God of War.

I wouldn't call a year of slaughtered innocents to avenge one man heroic by any stretch of the imagination.

And you nailed it, Belkar is the only one declaring it. I can say I'm the Queen of England, but the coronation just ain't happening.

Lastly, him becoming a god and getting rewarded for a lifetime of Evil doesn't really strike me as a payoff. More like a spit in the face to all the people he killed.

[The MunchKING]

And you nailed it, Belkar is the only one declaring it. I can say I'm the Queen of England, but the coronation just ain't happening.

Well to fit the Belkar metaphor; if you got an army and conquered the British Empire, you could pretty much declare yourself the Queen of England and only the other Superpowers could disagree with you. But the Empire and the Commonwealth certainly only contributes to your rise at that point.

Likewise if Belkar gets enough Soul power to make himself a God, then there may be a window for Thor to murder him on ascension before Belkar gets more Soul power to give him full Godly powers; but there's nothing the mortals can do about it except pray he doesn't smite them. Which as Hel shows was a pretty good deal. Also if he's famous ENOUGH for all his super-murdering, the other warriors may pray to him for his blessing in their own super-murdering.

EDIT:

I...never actually realized that Roy was skipping out on his magic items to prove something with his family sword.

Belkar is more attentive than I am, at least.

Well he's not really doing it that much, he's just not seeking out more items.

I mean he took the Belt of Ogre Strength and the Bag of Tricks, and the other miscellaneous stuff he's run across, but he just never went looking for new stuff outside of loot.

I'm guessing his share is also the one that gets the most cut into for things like "resurrection fund" and "travel expenses" on account of how he is the leader and all.

[Peelee]

Well to fit the Belkar metaphor; if you got an army and conquered the British Empire, you could pretty much declare yourself the Queen of England and only the other Superpowers could disagree with you. But the Empire and the Commonwealth certainly only contributes to your rise at that point.

Likewise if Belkar gets enough Soul power to make himself a God, then there may be a window for Thor to murder him on ascension before Belkar gets more Soul power to give him full Godly powers; but there's nothing the mortals can do about it except pray he doesn't smite them. Which as Hel shows was a pretty good deal. Also if he's famous ENOUGH for all his super-murdering, the other warriors may pray to him for his blessing in their own super-murdering.

Oh, I'm not debating that it can't happen. I'm just saying he has no imperial army, and with what, a week's worth of time to go I doubt hell get one built (and I doubt the Order or the Paladins will prozeltyse his deeds much).

[JackJin]

I wouldn't call a year of slaughtered innocents to avenge one man heroic by any stretch of the imagination.

And you nailed it, Belkar is the only one declaring it. I can say I'm the Queen of England, but the coronation just ain't happening.

Lastly, him becoming a god and getting rewarded for a lifetime of Evil doesn't really strike me as a payoff. More like a spit in the face to all the people he killed.

That's... extremely uncharitable in all accounts, and I'll assume you're not intending to come off as harsh as you sound.

My point is it was heroic to the Goblins. It was to them a wrathful crusade to avenge their fallen who was going to lead them to peace and prosperity. Use different words, spin it a little differently, and it's heroic. Good, even. It's an alignment debate at that point, and in D&D that's never useful.

I was referring to his self-declaration as a potential narrative payoff because this is a story. He's used it twice as a definition of himself, both during Azure City and his "evolve or die" moment. Once is cool, twice is a callback, a third time would be implying greater meaning. If you're not insane, or just being foolish, you saying you're the Queen of England twice in a story implies it's not random. Cue the third time when it's revealed you've been ol' Liz in a mask this entire time, and "I'm the Queen of England" becomes a badass punchline.

...And? He's killed a lot of people. A lot of them bad, even if he didn't care whether they were or not. It's been well established his entire build is best suited for killing low-level monsters by the dozens, and nowadays he's starting to question and seek out a reason why he's fighting. The way Roy talked about him during his assessment in the clouds and to Haley after, Belkar is treated less like a person and more a force of nature, a living weapon against whoever they point him at. Granted, several individuals Roy included can smack the little guy down with ease, but... there's a lot more low-hit point fodder out there in the world, and their last dying gasps being used enraged at Belkar is arguably more relevant to a discussion of ascension.

I don't want this to turn as bitter or dismissive as I'm getting the sense it's becoming, so I'll leave it at this. Right now, the rules for ascension are intentionally vague. We're given what the gods need to keep going, reference to the fact that deities have arisen in the past, but usually within an established Pantheon, and TDO is exceptional specifically for arising outside of the norm. All I'm saying is it'd be a pretty cool turn if Belkar's finale in this life came recognizing what he was fighting for, going down swinging against countless enemies, and becoming the personification of war he's declared himself to be. If that's implausible to you, fine. Didn't want to fight on this one.

[Anitar]

All I'm saying is it'd be a pretty cool turn if Belkar's finale in this life came recognizing what he was fighting for, going down swinging against countless enemies, and becoming the personification of war he's declared himself to be. If that's implausible to you, fine. Didn't want to fight on this one.

Didn't want to fight? You'll never be able to properly advocate for a war god with an attitude like that!

[JackJin]

Didn't want to fight? You'll never be able to properly advocate for a war god with an attitude like that!

Picking your fights is important for battle. Picking one with a mod is probably not good military doctrine.

[Peelee]

That's... extremely uncharitable in all accounts, and I'll assume you're not intending to come off as harsh as you sound.

My point is it was heroic to the Goblins. It was to them a wrathful crusade to avenge their fallen who was going to lead them to peace and prosperity. Use different words, spin it a little differently, and it's heroic. Good, even. It's an alignment debate at that point, and in D&D that's never useful.

I was referring to his self-declaration as a potential narrative payoff because this is a story. He's used it twice as a definition of himself, both during Azure City and his "evolve or die" moment. Once is cool, twice is a callback, a third time would be implying greater meaning. If you're not insane, or just being foolish, you saying you're the Queen of England twice in a story implies it's not random. Cue the third time when it's revealed you've been ol' Liz in a mask this entire time, and "I'm the Queen of England" becomes a badass punchline.

...And? He's killed a lot of people. A lot of them bad, even if he didn't care whether they were or not. It's been well established his entire build is best suited for killing low-level monsters by the dozens, and nowadays he's starting to question and seek out a reason why he's fighting. The way Roy talked about him during his assessment in the clouds and to Haley after, Belkar is treated less like a person and more a force of nature, a living weapon against whoever they point him at. Granted, several individuals Roy included can smack the little guy down with ease, but... there's a lot more low-hit point fodder out there in the world, and their last dying gasps being used enraged at Belkar is arguably more relevant to a discussion of ascension.

I don't want this to turn as bitter or dismissive as I'm getting the sense it's becoming, so I'll leave it at this. Right now, the rules for ascension are intentionally vague. We're given what the gods need to keep going, reference to the fact that deities have arisen in the past, but usually within an established Pantheon, and TDO is exceptional specifically for arising outside of the norm. All I'm saying is it'd be a pretty cool turn if Belkar's finale in this life came recognizing what he was fighting for, going down swinging against countless enemies, and becoming the personification of war he's declared himself to be. If that's implausible to you, fine. Didn't want to fight on this one.

Don't worry, I get zero sensr of bitterness or dismissiveness.

At the same time, I'm not intending to sound harsh, just trying to lay out how I see it. Which is to say, the author has laid out a lot of his beliefs about stories and life in general, and while I don't agree with all of them, one of them in particular is that evil is not a valid life choice. Background character being evil and becoming a god? Sure, why not, that works into the story. Main character who spent 99% of his life being an unrepentant monster becoming a god? I don't see him writing that story. Killing people is bad, but that's also pretty common and it's easy to be senensitized, even while still viewing it as abhorrent. But what about other things he's done, like slavery? He's totally been a slave, and what's more, was proud of that. Psychopathic murderer/slave getting no comeuppance for a lifetime of ghoulish crimes isn't closure in my book.

Or, to put it another way, Walter White may be entraining to watch but I don't want him to retire to the beach at the end.

Picking your fights is important for battle. Picking one with a mod is probably not good military doctrine.

I like being lazy. Stay within the Forum Rules and you can disagree with me as vehemently as you want all day long, and I'll call it a win.

[The MunchKING]

Picking your fights is important for battle. Picking one with a mod is probably not good military doctrine.

Certainly not one that's going to Napoleonically crown himself Queen of England.

[Peelee]

Certainly not one that's going to Napoleonically crown himself Queen of England.

Going to?!? That happened years ago! Time to execute the Minister of Publicity and get a new one

[Particle_Man]

I have 100 imaginary gold pieces on Belkar doing a heroic (and soul-ending) sacrifice a la Kraagor of the Order of the Scribble, to Save the World *and* avoid a nasty afterlife.

[The MunchKING]

Going to?!? That happened years ago! Time to execute the Minister of Publicity and get a new one

What? Then the reason your coronation isn't coming is because it was already true!!

And thus Belkar is ALREADY A GOD??

[Peelee]

What? Then the reason your coronation isn't coming is because it was already true!!

And thus Belkar is ALREADY A GOD??

Nah, he's just a little drunk.

[JackJin]

What? Then the reason your coronation isn't coming is because it was already true!!

And thus Belkar is ALREADY A GOD??

I mean, he's said it twice. You people need to learn to read the text.

[Jasdoif]

Going to?!? That happened years ago! Time to execute the Minister of Publicity and get a new one

...by any chance, have all your ministers of publicity moonlighted as drummers for Spinal Tap?