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Thread: Holes in cheese
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2012-01-02, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Holes in cheese
I wanted to write this awhile ...
I have to say I am quite a source of aggravation for cheeserollers in my games, so I'd like to discuss this whole cheese thing from this standpoint: All really powerfull cheese predicts some über favorable conditions. I'll lay out just two cases of this since I do not have the will to go into every conceivable broken idea in 3.5.
First is one of PunPun builds:
1. Make sure that your alignment is not CE. LG would work best. You want to benefit the multiverse and there is no better way to do that than for it to be like puddy in your hands.
2. You need a Knowledge check of 25 to know that you can summon Pazazu like Beetlejuice. As a Psion with a Sage Psicrystal, an 18 Intelligence, the Skill Focus feat, four ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and a masterwork item of relevance (say a book), you can take 10 to get 25. It's ok that you got bullied as a child for your narrow focus and strange fascination in all things relating to the planes. It will pay off in the end.
3. Summon Pazuzu by calling out his name three times. He'll appear and be like "Yo! What the hell?!?! What do you want Mor-tal? Power? I can give it!" You'll look all calm and not impressed and be like "I'd prefer a Lawful Evil aligned Candle of Invocation". "There is a price!" the demon lord will scream. "You must go closer to EV-ILL!!!" "Ok" you will say. "I shall be Neutral Good from now on." Pazuzu shouts "If you're going to stick with the one shift limit I would greatly prefer that you shifted to Lawful Neutral over Neutral Good!!!" You will look as if this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave, then say "You're a real ballbuster but we have a deal."
"Ok" you will say. "I shall be Neutral Good from now on." Pazuzu shouts "If you're going to stick with the one shift limit I would greatly prefer that you shifted to Lawful Neutral over Neutral Good!!!"
Now you have your candle.
4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.
5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.
Ascend.
Second is Chaingating ... anything.
Angels are good, devils/demons are bad. They want to be used for specific purpose. If they even want to be used. Also, these are very smart creatures. Unless used exceptionally carefully, you will very rapidly have half of Heaven/Hell on your tail.
And considering that even a single balor is thousand of years old and expert in spellcasting (it is 3.5 afterall, lets forget silly SRD stats), stronger creatures will go full batman on summoners @ss if he pulls off some chaingating shenanigans they do not like. Chaingating is IMO a bit like holding tigers tail.
I also noticed many cheesers like to interpret spell description very favorable for them. Restrictive interpretation locks down a lot of cheese.When in need of a plot ...
http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/02/...rom-4chan.html
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2012-01-02, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- Precious Jerusalem
Re: Holes in cheese
Cheese is based in RAW, all this is still RAW legal. The rules exist in a vacuum. Introduce fiat and you can make those arguments for anything.
Also, who has ever said to use punpun in an actual game?I work very irregular hours and usually very long ones at that. If I do not respond to something in a timely manner pester me in an OOC thread. If something big is happening in the Middle East I will probably be busy for a few days because I am the idiot wearing kevlar and interviewing people on the fronts.
Do you like MTG? Do you like Gitp? We have a Discord server for like minded players.
Currently Running: Through the Faerie Ring
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2012-01-02, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Holes in cheese
My mind, she boggles. Who would've thought that TO tricks can be negated by DM fiat!?
In other news, the sky is blue and monks suck.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2012-01-02, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Holes in cheese
You do know that Pun-Pun isn't a serious build idea? And that the build itself doesn't rely on Pazuzu or Alignment wishes at all? Those are just used to get the main trick up and running at level 1. There were various methods using alternate form and metamorphosis that got the same result by I believe level 8 or level 16.
Sarukh is a race of creatures. They are not gods, they can be dominated coerced and controlled like any other creature. Even if all of them had some sort of supernatural resistance to being coerced, that doesn't stop you from turning into one and pulling the same trick.
As far as chain gating, it is a pretty obvious, and pretty poorly designed flaw to allow monsters that can summon monsters also to be summoned. Summon Monster was designed to avoid such a flaw, but the Binding / Gate rules were not.
I think its much more reasonable to say that bound / gated creatures cannot use their abilities to summon or call. If summoning / binding gets all of heaven or hell after you, what is the point of the binding spells even existing?
Lastly, not usually good to bring in gods to restrict player actions. Especially if using the statted out rules for gods. Among other things, gods can be tricked.Spoiler
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2012-01-02, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Holes in cheese
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2012-01-02, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Holes in cheese
It's easy to find the holes in a block of cheese when someone else is using a drill. Seriously, you could not have stated something more obvious.
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2012-01-02, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Holes in cheese
{{scrubbed}}
Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-01-03 at 09:07 PM.
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2012-01-02, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-01-03 at 09:08 PM.
I work very irregular hours and usually very long ones at that. If I do not respond to something in a timely manner pester me in an OOC thread. If something big is happening in the Middle East I will probably be busy for a few days because I am the idiot wearing kevlar and interviewing people on the fronts.
Do you like MTG? Do you like Gitp? We have a Discord server for like minded players.
Currently Running: Through the Faerie Ring
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2012-01-02, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- Central Florida, USA
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Re: Holes in cheese
Avatar by Ceika.
Steam account. Add me to argue aboutphilosophywhatever!
Advertized Homebrew: Fire Emblem 4's Holy Blood as Bloodlines
Extended Signature.
Using a different color of text for sarcasm is so original.
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2012-01-02, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- Precious Jerusalem
I work very irregular hours and usually very long ones at that. If I do not respond to something in a timely manner pester me in an OOC thread. If something big is happening in the Middle East I will probably be busy for a few days because I am the idiot wearing kevlar and interviewing people on the fronts.
Do you like MTG? Do you like Gitp? We have a Discord server for like minded players.
Currently Running: Through the Faerie Ring
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2012-01-02, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Holes in cheese
First is one of PunPun builds:
First of all, gods with decent scrying abilities and portfolio sense know beforehand what will happen. So they will trump this. Nobody needs another god on the block, who wants to "benefit the universe".
Mentioned crystal may be missing, there may even not be Pazuzu. Also, Pazuzu, being pretty strong guy may have a contingency plan for all those pesky would-be summoners invilving death/idiocy...
"A powerful demon prince, called the Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms" as stated in wiki, is not a retard. First of all, he will know pun-pun will be pwned by greater powers, but IF he grants a wish, he wants some of the darkest evilry. Unless you intend to develop epic insta-flay spell for all newborns for next 100 years, you are not getting squat.
So, even ignoring the fact that Pun-Pun was never intended to be used in actual games, you're explicitly wrong about this.
I like the George Lucas part. But I am sure there is some epic monster cought on astral plane, nom-noming on would-be pun-puns teleported there by Erfeeti. Maybe he just made a deal with genies or just likes to pwn would-be ascendants.
I am sure Sarrukh has on one of his lists "do not be pwned by would-be ascendants" and I am sure he/she/it is able to do something about it.
Second is Chaingating ... anything.
Angels are good, devils/demons are bad. They want to be used for specific purpose. If they even want to be used. Also, these are very smart creatures. Unless used exceptionally carefully, you will very rapidly have half of Heaven/Hell on your tail.
And considering that even a single balor is thousand of years old and expert in spellcasting (it is 3.5 afterall, lets forget silly SRD stats)stronger creatures will go full batman on summoners @ss if he pulls off some chaingating shenanigans they do not like.
I also noticed many cheesers like to interpret spell description very favorable for them. Restrictive interpretation locks down a lot of cheese.
As others have pointed out, this is all pretty obvious, and some of it is outright wrong.
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2012-01-02, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.
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2012-01-02, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-02, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Holes in cheese
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2012-01-02, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Holes in cheese
I actually meant Vecna, now that I think about it. Or possibly Cyric.
I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.
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2012-01-02, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Holes in cheese
One hole in cheese that always annoys me is the oft-quoted Contingency and/or Celerity combo that allegedly makes wizards impossible to beat the moment they gain access to them. Contingency is an Evocation spell, and all wizards absolutely must ban evocation because it's a suboptimal school. Yes, there's Greater Shadow Evocation and Craft Contingent Spell, but both of those are more significant investments of resources that are always glossed over by the optimizers. Also, Celerity is an immediate action, which can't be used while flat-footed. You can avoid being flat-footed through Foresight, but that's a 9th level spell, and no one disputes the fact that 9th level spells are game-breaking.
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2012-01-02, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-02, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Holes in cheese
I work very irregular hours and usually very long ones at that. If I do not respond to something in a timely manner pester me in an OOC thread. If something big is happening in the Middle East I will probably be busy for a few days because I am the idiot wearing kevlar and interviewing people on the fronts.
Do you like MTG? Do you like Gitp? We have a Discord server for like minded players.
Currently Running: Through the Faerie Ring
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2012-01-02, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
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2012-01-02, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Holes in cheese
Actually, Craft Contingent Spell is glossed over because it's 10 times more broken than Contingency. And when people refer to Contingency on a Specialist Wizard, they usually are refering to one of the various methods of obtaining the spell even with Evocation banned (there's several ways to do this).
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2012-01-02, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- In an Octopus's Garden
Re: Holes in cheese
Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2012-01-02, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Holes in cheese
Avatar by Ceika.
Steam account. Add me to argue aboutphilosophywhatever!
Advertized Homebrew: Fire Emblem 4's Holy Blood as Bloodlines
Extended Signature.
Using a different color of text for sarcasm is so original.
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2012-01-02, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Holes in cheese
"You activated my Trap Card!"
"No, you activated by Trap Card!"
"...which triggers my second Trap Card here!"
"I saw that coming and had this prepared!"
"Ah, but you see, that causes another..."
...
<sip>
"How's the tea?"
"Very good, thank you. Now let's get back to work."
"Yeah, these pages of contingencies aren't going to sort themselves out."
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2012-01-02, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-02, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Holes in cheese
However, from what I remember, Forgotten Realms is tied to the standard planar cosmology. If you were in another plane of existence, not one directly touching the material plane (and thus ao's domain) you could still gate in a Sarukh from the prime material to say the Elemental Plane of Air.
Does gating etc work inside Sigil? From what I remember Gods specifically were unable to access that city. If summoning gating etc does work inside Sigil, then you should be able to summon a Sarukh there without any interference from Ao or any other gods.Spoiler
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2012-01-02, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: Holes in cheese
Yes, all I'm saying is that if people aren't actually using Contingency, but some other trick, they should say so, not just say "Contingency=win". Greater Shadow Evocation is an 8th level spell, not a 6th, so saying "I'm using Contingency" is misleading. It also makes the assumption that you haven't banned Illusion, a useful but sometimes situational school. And I don't even want to talk about the details of Craft Contingent Spell; my point was just that it takes up a feat slot, so it isn't as simple as preparing a spell.
And if you're going Generalist or Domain Wizard, that precludes other wizard tricks (IE: Domain Wizard means no Abrupt Jaunt or Incantatrix). But when people talk about their broken, unstoppable wizard, they won't note the fact that some of these are mutually exclusive, hence the 'holes' in the cheese.
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2012-01-02, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Holes in cheese
Wait, what? Domain wizard can go Incantrix. Can't get Abrupt Jaunt, though.
Avatar by Ceika.
Steam account. Add me to argue aboutphilosophywhatever!
Advertized Homebrew: Fire Emblem 4's Holy Blood as Bloodlines
Extended Signature.
Using a different color of text for sarcasm is so original.
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2012-01-02, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Oregon
Re: Holes in cheese
This thread caused an unholy union of my desk and my face. I'd comment further, but The Mage King took care of it for me.
Guess who's good at avatars? Thormag. That's who.
A Campaign Setting more than a year in the making, Patria!
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2012-01-02, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Holes in cheese
It's been a bit, GitP. If you're reading this, you're either digging through old stuff, or I've posted for the first time in forever.
If you want to stay in touch, reach out to me on twitter (same username).
The best answer is always to ask your DM.
Unless you're the DM, in which case you should talk to your players.
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2012-01-02, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: Holes in cheese
I don't have experience with either Domain Wizard or Incantatrix, nor do I have the text of Incantatrix, but I've seen some debate on the forums about the legality of entering Incantatrix through Domain Wizard, most recently in some of the posts in this thread.