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[upho]

I don't see any reason to continue the GL discussion, but I just wanted to clarify my views/experiences:

I don't.Problem here,i'm a pessimist.You look at it and see what GL can do.I look and see what it WILL do.

Yes and no. I look at GL and see what it will do at baseline, what it has the potential to do, and usually what is required for reaching that potential to a degree which makes GL competitive. Most importantly, I base my view of GL maneuvers on what I've repeatedly seen them do in my games, which typically don't have large parties, solo play or any player controlling a combatant beyond their own PC, and which also have (a lot) more challenging combat than Paizo APs have. And I've also played/seen pretty highly optimized initiators focusing on other disciplines in real games, so I believe I also have a somewhat decent grasp of most of the other disciplines' actual in-game potential.

[Castilonium]

Yes,i did read said guide.Which really should be named"Guide to all things Path of War"

Heh, yeah it's pretty darn thorough. (And easily one of the top five PF class guides I've ever seen.)

Awww, thanks, you two

Elricaltovilla, you're welcome to put my zealot guide on your original post, so people can easily find an up-to-date guide for zealots. Your own guide still says that zealots use Aid Another as a standard action, for instance.

[Draacul]

Awww, thanks, you two

Please.It's literally longer than PoW:E
I might not agree with everything there(GL rating comes to mind),but it's a REALLY good reference material.Plus it's updated constantly.
Work of art,that one.Except without art for some reason that probably involves better things to do.

[Elricaltovilla]

Awww, thanks, you two

Elricaltovilla, you're welcome to put my zealot guide on your original post, so people can easily find an up-to-date guide for zealots. Your own guide still says that zealots use Aid Another as a standard action, for instance.

Done. One less thing I have to worry about now.

[Wartex1]

Is it just me, or does the Enter the Vortex stance (Elemental Flux 5th level) seem to outclass all the others in Elemental Flux for most purposes? While one doesn't get magic item bonuses to it's touch attacks, it still has ranged touch attacks that qualify as thrown weapons (so benefit from things like Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, etc) that do pretty decent damage (4d6+relevant stat mod) plus some of the best mobility options in the game.

I can't see too many reasons to not use it most if not all of the time until one gets to the 8th level stances with things like Solar Hailstorm Stance, which can later be combined with the Tempest Gale Volley for insane damage.

[Elricaltovilla]

Is it just me, or does the Enter the Vortex stance (Elemental Flux 5th level) seem to outclass all the others in Elemental Flux for most purposes? While one doesn't get magic item bonuses to it's touch attacks, it still has ranged touch attacks that qualify as thrown weapons (so benefit from things like Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, etc) that do pretty decent damage (4d6+relevant stat mod) plus some of the best mobility options in the game.

I can't see too many reasons to not use it most if not all of the time until one gets to the 8th level stances with things like Solar Hailstorm Stance, which can later be combined with the Tempest Gale Volley for insane damage.

It largely depends on your goal. I'm of the opinion that Elemental Flux Stance is actually the gem of that discipline thanks to its variety of in and out of combat effects, increased resistances (which can be tailored to combat on the fly) and bonus damage. Enter The Vortex's energy damage is really just a nice bonus for most people. Most ranged characters will want to make use of other stances that capitalize on the weapons they use, and melee characters don't typically invest in the necessary abilities and feats to maximize its damage. The movement types are nice, but outside of flight, they're usually less necessary in combat (and there are other stances in other disciplines that offer flight and better effects), so the stance is really more for utility and exploration... which is actually a good thing, I think.

[Wartex1]

It's just the huge accuracy bonus of having touch attacks seems to outweigh other options against level appropriate encounters.

[Draacul]

It largely depends on your goal. I'm of the opinion that Elemental Flux Stance is actually the gem of that discipline thanks to its variety of in and out of combat effects, increased resistances (which can be tailored to combat on the fly) and bonus damage. Enter The Vortex's energy damage is really just a nice bonus for most people. Most ranged characters will want to make use of other stances that capitalize on the weapons they use, and melee characters don't typically invest in the necessary abilities and feats to maximize its damage. The movement types are nice, but outside of flight, they're usually less necessary in combat (and there are other stances in other disciplines that offer flight and better effects), so the stance is really more for utility and exploration... which is actually a good thing, I think.

Enter the Vortex allows you,however,to use Tempest Gale while remaining a melee combatant.And there is a lot of Good Stuff in Tempest Gale.

[Elricaltovilla]

It's just the huge accuracy bonus of having touch attacks seems to outweigh other options against level appropriate encounters.

Not really. Hitting isn't terribly difficult to do, and hitting with a properly leveled greatsword backed by the appropriate feats and maneuvers is going to far outweigh the 4d6 damage you're going to do with an EtV blast. The situations where you'd need a blast like that are few and far enough between that you'd be better off sitting on one of EF's ranged attack maneuvers and just using that.

Enter the Vortex allows you,however,to use Tempest Gale while remaining a melee combatant.And there is a lot of Good Stuff in Tempest Gale.

Now, I love Tempest Gale (and why wouldn't I?), but if you're a melee combatant, especially in Path of War, there's little to no reason to worry about Tempest Gale. Path of War easily removes the primary issue with melee combat: getting to your opponent. If you're spending maneuvers on Tempest Gale as a melee combatant, then you're not spending them on something that better suits your playstyle.

From flight granting stances, to teleportation maneuvers, to

[Draacul]

Not really. Hitting isn't terribly difficult to do, and hitting with a properly leveled greatsword backed by the appropriate feats and maneuvers is going to far outweigh the 4d6 damage you're going to do with an EtV blast. The situations where you'd need a blast like that are few and far enough between that you'd be better off sitting on one of EF's ranged attack maneuvers and just using that.



Now, I love Tempest Gale (and why wouldn't I?), but if you're a melee combatant, especially in Path of War, there's little to no reason to worry about Tempest Gale. Path of War easily removes the primary issue with melee combat: getting to your opponent. If you're spending maneuvers on Tempest Gale as a melee combatant, then you're not spending them on something that better suits your playstyle.

From flight granting stances, to teleportation maneuvers, to

Tempest Gale allows you to have ALL THE COMBAT MANEUVERS combined into one neat Sleight of Hand skill and usable at range.No other school does that.
This adds versatility,and a lot of it.
Sleeping Goddess is close second though.

[Wartex1]

Sleeping Goddess is like an espresso shot in any build for me.

Just take that waterwalking stance and never use anything else and now you don't ever have to worry about heavily investing into a discipline you don't want just for mobility.

[Elricaltovilla]

Tempest Gale allows you to have ALL THE COMBAT MANEUVERS combined into one neat Sleight of Hand skill and usable at range.No other school does that.
This adds versatility,and a lot of it.
Sleeping Goddess is close second though.

Yes, I'm fully aware of what Tempest Gale does. I'm also aware of the fact that it is a ranged restricted Discipline and therefore 90% useless for a melee focused character.

Sleeping Goddess is like an espresso shot in any build for me.

Just take that waterwalking stance and never use anything else and now you don't ever have to worry about heavily investing into a discipline you don't want just for mobility.

That is my favorite stance in the game for exactly that reason.

[Wartex1]

Plus it is just narratively awesome for any martial. What's more "super mundane" than being so powerful that one can just walk on air?

The only thing that is just as cool in that regard is the Fools Errand stance that gives you double jumps.

EDIT: Plus walking on water is a common trope in all classical mythology. Same with being so strong one can literally hurl themselves through the sky through sheer strength.

[skaddix]

I do like the stance which raises a question how viable is Sleeping Goddess without being in a class that gives you a lot of PP?

I mean it works great on Zealots but ugh classes that focus so much on helping teammates aren't my thing.

[Wartex1]

That stance alone makes Sleeping Goddess worth it, tbh. Most builds won't be using all six of their disciplines.

But it doesn't look too bad without a big PP reserve either.

[Draacul]

I do like the stance which raises a question how viable is Sleeping Goddess without being in a class that gives you a lot of PP?

I mean it works great on Zealots but ugh classes that focus so much on helping teammates aren't my thing.

You can use it with pure utility and tactical stuff and not spend a single PP.
There is a second-level strike that lets you do TWO combat maneuvers,both with AH check.Another one which allows you to read thoughts,possibly with no save.At 3rd level there is a thing that prevents the target from doing pretty much anything but normal attacks.None of these require any PP.
At level five there is a strike that inflicts 1d4 int damage with no save.This is 75% chance to instantly take out any 2-int creature,which improves to 100% by spending 2pp.
Oh,but there is more!You can spend focus with that strike to get 100% chance to take out any golem or other stupid 1-cha creature.At melee or range,to boot.This strike is so good i have no words.
And at level 6 you get boost that allows a free augment to the max,granting you all PP you ever need.

[skaddix]

That stance alone makes Sleeping Goddess worth it, tbh. Most builds won't be using all six of their disciplines.

But it doesn't look too bad without a big PP reserve either.

Most builds, more like no builds who in the world uses all 6 disciplines?

2-3 primary with maybe a few dips for something especially good.

[upho]

Tempest Gale allows you to have ALL THE COMBAT MANEUVERS combined into one neat Sleight of Hand skill and usable at range.No other school does that.
This adds versatility,and a lot of it.

Aside from being limited to ranged, IME there are a few additional potentially major issues with melee builds dabbling in TG for ranged combat maneuvers, mainly because it replaces CMB checks with SoH checks:

• You have to be Dex based in order to keep your SoH at least somewhat functional, which comes with its own slew of limitations and additional resource demands.
• Your SoH bonus won't be able to keep up with the CMB of a Str based melee build, since you normally cannot add any of the game's more significant CMB boosters to your SoH checks. Even the boosts granted by TG (besides those enabled by Trick of the Wind) are limited to CMB checks per RAW. And this isn't a problem just for a couple of specific combat maneuvers, but practically all of those granted by TG maneuvers.
• You have few ranged combat maneuvers to choose from using TG strikes, and the ones far most commonly granted - disarm and trip - will typically have the smallest number of viable targets, especially for a Dex build who cannot afford size increases.

In addition, even should you make investments into related options, using SoH ranged you often won't be able to capitalize on many of those investments nearly as well as you could using CMB in melee (such as AoO triggers). None of these issues have much impact on the effectiveness of ranged builds, as they'll still be able to get plenty out of TG. But it seems to me a primary melee build using Enter the Vortex is pretty much stuck with Dustcatching Breeze in order to make certain there are viable targets for his ranged combat maneuver attempts, which makes the whole combo a poor investment.

Admittedly, I don't think the above issues would be very noticeable during lower levels in a Paizo AP run as written, but definitely during higher levels and/or in games with more challenging combat.

Or did I miss something here?

I mean it works great on Zealots but ugh classes that focus so much on helping teammates aren't my thing.

Just FYI, the zealot is a very versatile class and can be built into an absolute monster also when going solo, allowing for arguably some of the strongest combatants possible in the entire game even without allies. So helping teammates doesn't have to be more than a really tasty free cherry on top of a massive mountain of metal-clad melee meat... (Check out the builds marked with warning tags at the end of Castilonium's guide for a couple of game-breaking examples of such zealots.)

Most builds, more like no builds who in the world uses all 6 disciplines?

2-3 primary with maybe a few dips for something especially good.

Agreed. Although with some dips into other initiator classes/archetypes, you often end up with a quite a few maneuvers from a couple of other disciplines. But IME most of these typically soon end up being rarely used for their maneuver benefits, but more often for powering stuff which requires expending a readied maneuver.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Something about the zealot has always kept me at a distance. Probably the combination of psionic+tank+collective, its hard to wrap my head around the class as a whole, as opposed to pretty much every other PoW base class (warlord=frontline leader gloryhound, harbinger=mobile debuffer edgelord, stalker=DPS-lord ninja, etc). And, judging by Castilonium's guide, even more variables to keep track of than usual. Though I did decide an important setting NPC (and one of my favorites, character-wise) is a zealot; mostly since I wanted him to have access to Immortal Truths of the Sleeping Goddess, but the class suites him in particular (he's a general and is ambitious and generally 'zealous', you might say). Plus, if what people say about them is correct, it helps to have some mechanical clout behind someone whose nom de guerre is 'the Godslayer,' and who leads 'the Knights of Apostasy'.

Though I still want a wisdom-based full initiator that gets Sleeping Goddess. I don't think I've ever gotten an answer if a mystic with Awakened Animus can mainline the discipline (though I was also thinking of going Elan, which would help a little bit; I like human-passing races).

[skaddix]

I actually think it work fine with Mystic especially when considering you can go 2 for 1 shopping on Autohypnosis if you go Riven Hourglass. Course you have to burn a trait to get it or I suppose if your DM lets you get away with it train with the school and save the trait.

Could of told me you were selling your own build lol. I like it though how many disciplines did you use in this Nelly build?

[Draacul]

Aside from being limited to ranged, IME there are a few additional potentially major issues with melee builds dabbling in TG for ranged combat maneuvers, mainly because it replaces CMB checks with SoH checks:

It also locks you into one specific stance that isn't the best stance in the game.Still,it's a viable option.

[*]You have to be Dex based in order to keep your SoH at least somewhat functional, which comes with its own slew of limitations and additional resource demands.

Or Gloves of Larceny.Remember,all you need is to hit enemy touch AC.

Aside from being limited to ranged, IME there are a few additional potentially major issues with melee builds dabbling in TG for ranged combat maneuvers, mainly because it replaces CMB checks with SoH checks:
[LIST][*]Your SoH bonus won't be able to keep up with the CMB of a Str based melee build, since you normally cannot add any of the game's more significant CMB boosters to your SoH checks. Even the boosts granted by TG (besides those enabled by Trick of the Wind) are limited to CMB checks per RAW. And this isn't a problem just for a couple of specific combat maneuvers, but practically all of those granted by TG maneuvers.

You also suffer none of limitations.Most notable action economy(them combat maneuvers are usually standard action and require you to be in the right place)
Also,this is a problem for like every school which replaced CMB with a skill check.
"

Aside from being limited to ranged, IME there are a few additional potentially major issues with melee builds dabbling in TG for ranged combat maneuvers, mainly because it replaces CMB checks with SoH checks: [*]You have few ranged combat maneuvers to choose from using TG strikes, and the ones far most commonly granted - disarm and trip - will typically have the smallest number of viable targets, especially for a Dex build who cannot afford size increases.

"
Dirty Trick is more viable.Moreover,an investment of a single feat(Shape Veil)removes the problem with sizes PERMANENTLY.
"

In addition, even should you make investments into related options, using SoH ranged you often won't be able to capitalize on many of those investments nearly as well as you could using CMB in melee (such as AoO triggers). None of these issues have much impact on the effectiveness of ranged builds, as they'll still be able to get plenty out of TG. But it seems to me a primary melee build using Enter the Vortex is pretty much stuck with Dustcatching Breeze in order to make certain there are viable targets for his ranged combat maneuver attempts, which makes the whole combo a poor investment.

"
Here's my point.You shouldn't make these investments.You take Dustcatching Breeze and Deflecting Shot(and these gloves) and you're golden.It's a relatively small investment.Or don't even take Deflecting Shot,Dustcatching Breeze is good enough.And yes,this is a very specific niche,but i played it in two campaigns and it was fun.Enter the Vortex made it possible.And now i have this dip in Privateer and i just can't make it work,so i was forced to forgot about it.

Just FYI, the zealot is a very versatile class and can be built into an absolute monster also when going solo, allowing for arguably some of the strongest combatants possible in the entire game even without allies. So helping teammates doesn't have to be more than a really tasty free cherry on top of a massive mountain of metal-clad melee meat... (Check out the builds marked with warning tags at the end of Castilonium's guide for a couple of game-breaking examples of such zealots.)

I think that recovering maneuvers as a move action really broke the class,honestly.I remember running it with standard-action recovery and it wasn't nearly as game-breaking.Still an absolute monstrosity though.

[skaddix]

Well sure cause the Zealot doesn't really have to move much and because you know there are plenty of good standard action strikes anyway including ones that will move you to do an attack.

[Wartex1]

What would be cool would be the new INT-based initiator is a sort of jack-of-all trades (befitting the INT-focus), and one of their abilities is that they have a special resource pool that can be used in place of animus, PP, panache, grit, etc. Plus, it would be a nice gateway into making an Improvised Weapon discipline (I've already homebrewed one, but an official option would be nice).

[Eox]

I wouldn't mind a class with a choice between the three stats for your initiation modifier, and a different ability set/"skill tree" based on the choice. The easy option would be Int specializing in stealth and finesse, Wisdom for Monk unarmed damage and such and Cha as a leader with teamwork feats, but it could be taken in some neat directions with say an occult-style class (Int gives physics-breaking abilities, Wis gives ghost powers and Cha steals features from the mesmerist wholesale)

I wish we had a general PoW thread, it's a great system to spitball with.

[Elricaltovilla]

What would be cool would be the new INT-based initiator is a sort of jack-of-all trades (befitting the INT-focus), and one of their abilities is that they have a special resource pool that can be used in place of animus, PP, panache, grit, etc. Plus, it would be a nice gateway into making an Improvised Weapon discipline (I've already homebrewed one, but an official option would be nice).

Have you looked at the Vigilante archetype for the Stalker? It's INT based and uses inspiration instead of Ki. Fairly similar to what you're describing, I think.

[upho]

Or Gloves of Larceny.Remember,all you need is to hit enemy touch AC.

But you also need to beat the enemy's CMD. And at least in mid/high levels, this is the problem I don't understand how you solve.

Unfortunately, a +5 bonus (Gloves of Larceny) isn't enough to make the SoH bonus of a Str based build measure up against the typical CMD of CR appropriate monsters. For example, an 11th level Str build with no skill boosts outside of max ranks, an unusually decent Dex and mentioned gloves would have a SoH bonus of +21 (11 ranks, 3 class, 2 Dex, 5 competence), while the the average CMD of published CR 11 Paizo monsters is about 35 (35% success chance), and can be up to 40 (10% chance). And if/when this guy faces an actually challenging opponent of CR 14, the average CMD he's gonna have to beat will be 39 (15% chance), and can be as high as 47 (0% chance). Not to mention his already unacceptably poor success chances will continue getting exponentially worse the more levels he gains, to the point where even rolling a 20 won't be enough to make him succeed against an "average" monster of a CR below his level. At least not without temporary boosts or additional investments beyond those mentioned.

As a comparison, at 11th level the same guy could have a typical dirty trick CMB above +33, without even having made a single investment into improving dirty trick specifically, and using only a few and relatively cheap magic items to boost his CMB in general. Note that this is in addition to having a disarm, trip and reposition CMB at least equally high. And if he actually focused hard on combat maneuvers in general and on dirty trick in particular, that CMB could be above +43, and could end up above +73 (along with his CMB for several other combat maneuvers), enough to give him at least a decent 50% chance to beat the CMD of most monsters of a CR up to 27.

You also suffer none of limitations.Most notable action economy(them combat maneuvers are usually standard action and require you to be in the right place)

Well, I think combat maneuvers are unusually good examples of the system's "all or nothing" nature. Meaning if you actually use combat maneuvers regularly and successfully in melee, chances are pretty darn high your build is actually geared towards doing precisely that. Which for example means you likely have a good or great reach, size and Str, besides mobility boosters and stuff more closely related to combat maneuvers specifically. Which in turn means that aside from perhaps during the very earliest levels, the limitations you mention will only rarely - if ever - become an actual issue.

And especially when it comes to action economy, you at the very least have the potential to gain much more from using combat maneuvers than any ranged build could ever hope for, as you may combine things like Combat Reflexes, grab, Seize the Opportunity, Shield Slam, Vicious Stomp and Maelstrom Shield to generate long chains of AoOs and free combat maneuver attempts from every single melee attack hit. On top of this, you have a much larger selection of maneuvers to choose from which include free combat maneuver attempts, plus many more which greatly support their use and/or your combat style in other ways.

That said, there are of course distinct advantages to using combat maneuvers at range. I'm just having a very hard time seeing how a melee combatant - especially a Str based one - could capitalize on those advantages.

Also,this is a problem for like every school which replaced CMB with a skill check.

Yes, indeed it is. Of course, that is if you're saying it's also a problem for builds with unsuitable stats and no/few synergizing mechanics to use the corresponding maneuvers of other disciplines. It's typically less of a problem for builds with suitable stats, and often not much of a problem at all for builds actually focusing on those maneuvers/disciplines, as they can make the necessary investments worthwhile.

In addition, not all skills, skill boosts and skill-using maneuvers were created equal. Meaning a skill's usefulness outside of maneuvers, how easy/costly it is for initiators to boost, how significant boosts its related options grant, and how high the DC typically is when the skill is used in maneuvers. I think SoH is a bit below average; it's based on a pretty widely supported attack stat which also have tons of other skills based on it, but it's typically not a vital or important adventuring skill, lacks options providing substantial boosts, and it's also relatively weak/resource intense as used by TG maneuvers since the check DCs (enemy CMD) is often the highest value aside from hp found in a monster stat block.

Dirty Trick is more viable.Moreover,an investment of a single feat(Shape Veil)removes the problem with sizes PERMANENTLY.

Yeah, I think DT is "the golden standard of combat maneuvers", to quote Ssalarn. The veil trick is nifty, albeit rather costly for builds which don't gain essence without further investments. (And it's also written by Ssalarn... He's everywhere!)

Here's my point.You shouldn't make these investments.You take Dustcatching Breeze and Deflecting Shot(and these gloves) and you're golden.It's a relatively small investment.Or don't even take Deflecting Shot,Dustcatching Breeze is good enough.And yes,this is a very specific niche,but i played it in two campaigns and it was fun.Enter the Vortex made it possible.And now i have this dip in Privateer and i just can't make it work,so i was forced to forgot about it.

But after just a few levels, you're not golden, as shown above, but simply have a bunch of investments which no longer delivers, three of which will cost you quite a bit of resources to replace and one which may even be impossible to replace (Elemental Flux access granted by trait/tradition). So I don't see how this could be better than investing in stuff with more longevity and synergy with your primary combat style.

But I can definitely see that it can be fun during the levels when it works. And that's what is most important, after all.

I think that recovering maneuvers as a move action really broke the class,honestly.I remember running it with standard-action recovery and it wasn't nearly as game-breaking.Still an absolute monstrosity though.

Considering it's quite easy to gain very efficient recoveries allowing basically the same combos, I don't find the move recovery game-breaking. It's certainly strong, but quite a few of my non-zealot builds do similar things, or have simply worked around the need for spamming.

Could of told me you were selling your own build lol.

Oh, so you found Nelly. Honestly, I wasn't just thinking of her, but of Castilonium's craziest creations as well.

Well ok... I wasn't totally honest. My new build marketing strategy is actually called "Seemingly Independent Referencing"...

I like it though how many disciplines did you use in this Nelly build?

Many. Although her higher level maneuvers come from Eternal Guardian, Fool's Errand, Golden Lion and Riven Hourglass, the most important is from Piercing Thunder (Stance of the Thunderbrand), and she dabbles a bit in Sleeping Goddess as well. A few dips makes it pretty easy to cherrypick the most suitable maneuvers from several disciplines, especially for builds which don't rely much on skill check maneuvers and intentionally opt out of those giving enemies a chance to save.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I actually think it work fine with Mystic especially when considering you can go 2 for 1 shopping on Autohypnosis if you go Riven Hourglass. Course you have to burn a trait to get it or I suppose if your DM lets you get away with it train with the school and save the trait.

Actually, I rather like the Servants of the Secret Hymn, so it's not so much of a problem. Plus, having a hand in making the setting helps a lot when it comes to saying what traditions are around.

[Draacul]

But you also need to beat the enemy's CMD. And at least in mid/high levels, this is the problem I don't understand how you solve.

Unfortunately, a +5 bonus (Gloves of Larceny) isn't enough to make the SoH bonus of a Str based build measure up against the typical CMD of CR appropriate monsters. For example, an 11th level Str build with no skill boosts outside of max ranks, an unusually decent Dex and mentioned gloves would have a SoH bonus of +21 (11 ranks, 3 class, 2 Dex, 5 competence), while the the average CMD of published CR 11 Paizo monsters is about 35 (35% success chance), and can be up to 40 (10% chance). And if/when this guy faces an actually challenging opponent of CR 14, the average CMD he's gonna have to beat will be 39 (15% chance), and can be as high as 47 (0% chance). Not to mention his already unacceptably poor success chances will continue getting exponentially worse the more levels he gains, to the point where even rolling a 20 won't be enough to make him succeed against an "average" monster of a CR below his level. At least not without temporary boosts or additional investments beyond those mentioned.

Published CR11 wizard has CMD of 20.Fighter has 28 or so.But then,by now the whole point is moot because Radiant Dawn exists and you can use laser as a delivery system after spending one feat.
"

Well, I think combat maneuvers are unusually good examples of the system's "all or nothing" nature. Meaning if you actually use combat maneuvers regularly and successfully in melee, chances are pretty darn high your build is actually geared towards doing precisely that. Which for example means you likely have a good or great reach, size and Str, besides mobility boosters and stuff more closely related to combat maneuvers specifically. Which in turn means that aside from perhaps during the very earliest levels, the limitations you mention will only rarely - if ever - become an actual issue.

They don't have to be all or nothing.You see vulnerable target and use them.If you don't-you don't.With minimal investment you can solve SOME encounters.Not all,but some.

In addition, not all skills, skill boosts and skill-using maneuvers were created equal.

Yes.SoH,for example,has ONE item that provides a bonus to it,and only +5.There is no Elixir of +10 to SoH.There is one for Intimidate.
"

Yeah, I think DT is "the golden standard of combat maneuvers", to quote Ssalarn. The veil trick is nifty, albeit rather costly for builds which don't gain essence without further investments. (And it's also written by Ssalarn... He's everywhere!)

"
But essence is fixed by learning a single Radiant Dawn maneuver.You don't need to spend a feat or anything.
Radiant Dawn just might become a new king.

[Elricaltovilla]

Published CR11 wizard has CMD of 20.Fighter has 28 or so.But then,by now the whole point is moot because Radiant Dawn exists and you can use laser as a delivery system after spending one feat.
.

The published humanoid enemies aren't the issue (in fact they're often laughably bad) look at the non-humanoid monsters. Anything with more than 4 legs laughs at trip attempts, for example. Take the CR 5 Giant Ant Lion, for example. It has a CMD of 22, and 30 vs. trip. It's not even particularly high, but rivals the CMD of higher level characters.

[Draacul]

The published humanoid enemies aren't the issue (in fact they're often laughably bad) look at the non-humanoid monsters. Anything with more than 4 legs laughs at trip attempts, for example. Take the CR 5 Giant Ant Lion, for example. It has a CMD of 22, and 30 vs. trip. It's not even particularly high, but rivals the CMD of higher level characters.

I object to high-level casters not being an issue.Moreover,published APs as a rule have enough two-legged,relatively small CMD targets.Even as bosses!First AP has 20-level wizard,second has this...bard,third has cleric and so on.But yes,when you are facing hard targets you are readied maneuver short.Or two.Which is bad,but can sometimes be mitigated by not readying them at all.
Still,Karzoug's CMD is 39,so not out of reach of that 11-level character.Just really unlikely.
Anyways my original point is no longer valid,because Sun's Gleam is WAY better delivery system.It comes online at level ONE as opposed to nine,for starters.