Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm pretty sure they would have to be threatening the public before ashing becomes a legal response.

Archon's team of lawyers could easily argue that the aliens or the group who just showed up starting a super-brawl in downtown NYC is "threatening the public".

[Traab]

Archon's team of lawyers could easily argue that the aliens or the group who just showed up starting a super-brawl in downtown NYC is "threatening the public".

And yet they took down the super brawl with minor injuries for the most part and no deaths. That was most likely a combo of reasons. One, to show off how good they are, and to be good pr as no deaths means they project a better image overall to the people. But even so, I really do think actual personal threat level factors in. Most self defense laws require you to actually be in danger or at least reasonably conclude that you are. When you can confetti a tank and take hits that would further confetti tanks without injury, it becomes harder to justify lethal force in return because you were not really in any danger unless the attack is something extreme. I know the rules are different for law enforcement to an extent, but even so, most would frown on killing criminals that arent an actual threat to you.

[Forum Explorer]

Archon's team of lawyers could easily argue that the aliens or the group who just showed up starting a super-brawl in downtown NYC is "threatening the public".

Sure. But the problem isn't legal action, it's the impression that Archon is dangerous and scary. If Maxima kills someone, people aren't going to be happy unless that person was a clear threat to everyone around them, not just Maxima. They are playing up the celebrity angle so people think of supers as people to be admired, not weapons to be feared. Ashing someone in downtown New York, even if they attacked first, isn't going to be accepted by the public, not until that criminal seriously harmed someone.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm not saying they should ash anyone, only that if they did it wouldn't be a huge violation of use of force rules.

[Traab]

I'm not saying they should ash anyone, only that if they did it wouldn't be a huge violation of use of force rules.

And im thinking at best its an area that doesnt really have legislation for it yet which makes applying current laws dicey.

[Keltest]

And im thinking at best its an area that doesnt really have legislation for it yet which makes applying current laws dicey.

I think you'd be mistaken then. Law enforcement having access to lethal force is not a remotely new concept.

[Rogar Demonblud]

{scrubbed}

[Mechalich]

And im thinking at best its an area that doesnt really have legislation for it yet which makes applying current laws dicey.

Well, yes and no. The tricky part is the legal assessment of the force implicated by a super-strong person attacking without weapons. Energy blasts or something similar are just funny colored weapons and are covered quite acceptably by the understanding of how extant weapons are treated - unless sucker-punching-knuckles-man is bulletproof there's not any functional difference between Max hitting him with a deadly energy blast versus just shooting him with her sidearm (which she is carrying, btw, you can see it clearly in comic 873). So the question turns on what level of force is implicated by brandishing your fists in a threatening manner or actually throwing a punch when you have the capability to easily inflict lethal levels of blunt trauma with a single blow.

However, the law already considers this with regard to ordinary hand to hand attacks and also the use of blunt implements in combat (ex. a baseball bat). Specifically, the level of force is based on the location on the body targeted. For example, the most vulnerable point on the human body to blunt trauma is the throat, and consequently a karate chop to the neck is considered a deadly force attack. Likewise, if you swing a baseball bat at someone's legs that's not deadly force, but a strike to the head would be.

So, it could be reasonably said that big knuckles' strike on alf, which aimed for the center of mass, was a deadly force assault, and if she'd hadn't managed to get her shield in place the blow would almost certainly have killed her (as an aside, it's probably important to consider the element of comic book/action movie logic with regard to injuries here, alf got slammed through a massive jumbotron screen and came out the other side with only modest lacerations not the massive deep cuts and almost immediately life threatening blood loss that would actually occur should that really happen to someone).

[lord_khaine]

Well, yes and no. The tricky part is the legal assessment of the force implicated by a super-strong person attacking without weapons. Energy blasts or something similar are just funny colored weapons and are covered quite acceptably by the understanding of how extant weapons are treated - unless sucker-punching-knuckles-man is bulletproof there's not any functional difference between Max hitting him with a deadly energy blast versus just shooting him with her sidearm (which she is carrying, btw, you can see it clearly in comic 873). So the question turns on what level of force is implicated by brandishing your fists in a threatening manner or actually throwing a punch when you have the capability to easily inflict lethal levels of blunt trauma with a single blow.

And this example revolves mostly around Max. Whom i doubt there are anyone on earth that can easily inflict lethal levels of blunt trauma on.
When he socks her, and she cant even show a bruise on her chin, then it becomes exceptionally hard to argue she were in any sort of danger.
Its a bit like smacking someone with a nerf bat. It also gets hard to explain why you were in lethal danger and had to shoot the guy to defend yourself.

However, the law already considers this with regard to ordinary hand to hand attacks and also the use of blunt implements in combat (ex. a baseball bat). Specifically, the level of force is based on the location on the body targeted. For example, the most vulnerable point on the human body to blunt trauma is the throat, and consequently a karate chop to the neck is considered a deadly force attack. Likewise, if you swing a baseball bat at someone's legs that's not deadly force, but a strike to the head would be.

Hah.. thats kinda funny. Lawmakers must have been watching a bit to many kung-fu movies then. Since a chop at the neck is unlikely to provice more than a stiff neck or i guess at worst a strained muscle?
The human body is actually amazingly resilient when it comes to resisting unarmed attacks. You need to be seriously well trained. Or really know what your doing.

So, it could be reasonably said that big knuckles' strike on alf, which aimed for the center of mass, was a deadly force assault, and if she'd hadn't managed to get her shield in place the blow would almost certainly have killed her (as an aside, it's probably important to consider the element of comic book/action movie logic with regard to injuries here, alf got slammed through a massive jumbotron screen and came out the other side with only modest lacerations not the massive deep cuts and almost immediately life threatening blood loss that would actually occur should that really happen to someone).

Dont you mean, despite being center of mass? Normally blows to the chest by a fist does not do much more than annoy your target.
But the exception again is of course super strenght. Though the impression i got was more that he was able to phase his punch though the shield.
Honestly the whole exchange is indeed confusing. Like if the shield blocked it why was there so much pushback. In either case why is she still alive after flying what 10 meter though the air?
Did he mostly just punt her away with his fist instead of delivering a blow that should have snapped her spine? Though likely her forcefield protected against glass cuts.

And.. in hindsight this is likely the type of scene that should not be analysed to deeply.

edit.
New comic where Max walks face first into it.

[Vahnavoi]

Hah.. thats kinda funny. Lawmakers must have been watching a bit to many kung-fu movies then. Since a chop at the neck is unlikely to provice more than a stiff neck or i guess at worst a strained muscle?

The "chop to the neck" is often the hard part of someone's forearm being smacked against your head with sufficient force to break boards. Not that you'd like the edge of someone's hand striking your throat either. The potential effects are largely the same as if someone was choking you, meaning lapse of consciousness due disrupted bloodflow and immense pain and inability to breath due to pressure on the trachea.

Where'd you think kung fu movies got the idea from, huh? In english-speaking world, it's sometimes taught to police in a specific form under name of "brachial stun".

[lord_khaine]

The "chop to the neck" is often the hard part of someone's forearm being smacked against your head with sufficient force to break boards. Not that you'd like the edge of someone's hand striking your throat either. The potential effects are largely the same as if someone was choking you, meaning lapse of consciousness due disrupted bloodflow and immense pain and inability to breath due to pressure on the trachea.

Where'd you think kung fu movies got the idea from, huh? In english-speaking world, it's sometimes taught to police in a specific form under name of "brachial stun".

If you very, very carefully reads though the message that you quoted.
Then you can see that it does not, in fact, at any place mention the throat.

As for the force required to break a board? Depending on the board it can be quite low.
For the kind of board usually used for martial art practice, the force required to break it would be unlikely to even give you a headache if applied there.

[Vahnavoi]

I mention the throat because for a "chop to the neck", the two main targets are the throat at the front of the neck and the large arteries carrying blood to the brain at the sides of the neck. These are the same target areas as those for chokes and they are such because affecting these areas with serious force causes extreme discomfort, disrupted consciousness and inability to breathe. (You can argue for back of the head / back of the neck for third main target, but it's practically never allowed for either sports or law enforcement.)

That you didn't specify the throat as a target area is irrelevant for describing why lawmakers take neck chops seriously; they bloody well know the throat is one of the relevant target areas.

As for breaking boards, I chose that example because it is hard to convey impact strength by words. But since you're not entertaining that argument in good faith, let me offer you another: it is fairly well known and uncontroversial that well executed punches to the chin can break teeth and bone and cause concussions. A well executed "neck chop" has the exact same level of force, just aimed an inch or two lower. Saying a "chop to the neck is unlikely to provice more than a stiff neck or i guess at worst a strained muscle?" is equivalent to saying "a punch to the jaw is unlikely to cause more than a bloody lip and a bruise". It's true, if you're talking about a punch that isn't thrown well or doesn't connect well, and a hideous underestimation of the real dangers if you're talking about a punch that is and does.

[tyckspoon]

Hah.. thats kinda funny. Lawmakers must have been watching a bit to many kung-fu movies then. Since a chop at the neck is unlikely to provice more than a stiff neck or i guess at worst a strained muscle?
The human body is actually amazingly resilient when it comes to resisting unarmed attacks. You need to be seriously well trained. Or really know what your doing.

Hitting people in the head and neck because 'everybody knows you can't really hurt somebody there' is a good way to wind up with manslaughter charges.. while the human body is indeed surprisingly resilient, it also has surprising points of vulnerability. And while you do indeed need some training and knowledge to consistently cause significant damage with unarmed blows, a guy who got his teeth knocked out, trachea crushed, nose broken, neck vertebra broken, kidney bruised, etc by an inconsistently damaging shot is still permanently injured.

[lord_khaine]

I mention the throat because for a "chop to the neck", the two main targets are the throat at the front of the neck and the large arteries carrying blood to the brain at the sides of the neck. These are the same target areas as those for chokes and they are such because affecting these areas with serious force causes extreme discomfort, disrupted consciousness and inability to breathe. (You can argue for back of the head / back of the neck for third main target, but it's practically never allowed for either sports or law enforcement.)

That you didn't specify the throat as a target area is irrelevant for describing why lawmakers take neck chops seriously; they bloody well know the throat is one of the relevant target areas.

Well if you mean chop to the throat you should likely have said that instead of chop to the neck?
And i stand by my previous comment about lawmakers having seen to many kung-fu movies then. If they call that lethal force.
Yes there are large arteries in the neck. No its not that easy to affect them with a chop. You generally need to get in and apply persistant pressure.

As for breaking boards, I chose that example because it is hard to convey impact strength by words. But since you're not entertaining that argument in good faith, let me offer you another: it is fairly well known and uncontroversial that well executed punches to the chin can break teeth and bone and cause concussions. A well executed "neck chop" has the exact same level of force, just aimed an inch or two lower. Saying a "chop to the neck is unlikely to provice more than a stiff neck or i guess at worst a strained muscle?" is equivalent to saying "a punch to the jaw is unlikely to cause more than a bloody lip and a bruise". It's true, if you're talking about a punch that isn't thrown well or doesn't connect well, and a hideous underestimation of the real dangers if you're talking about a punch that is and does.

Hey. Dont throw your inability to express yourself accurately over at me. It has nothing to do with good faith.
If you want to convey high impact strenght then you should have picked a better example.

And no. Thats the crux of the issue. A well executed chop does not have nearly the amount of force behind itself that a well executed punch carry.
Thats also a well know and uncontroversial fact. The physic is simply against it. Yes you can do some damage with a chop.
But i would say 9/10 times your better offer throwing a regular punch. Chops are mostly for showing off on bricks.

Hitting people in the head and neck because 'everybody knows you can't really hurt somebody there' is a good way to wind up with manslaughter charges.. while the human body is indeed surprisingly resilient, it also has surprising points of vulnerability. And while you do indeed need some training and knowledge to consistently cause significant damage with unarmed blows, a guy who got his teeth knocked out, trachea crushed, nose broken, neck vertebra broken, kidney bruised, etc by an inconsistently damaging shot is still permanently injured

I newer claimed the location was invulnerable. Just made fun of the lawmakers who decided that neck chops constituted a lethal assult.
There.. are quite a bit of ground between those 2 areas.

[HandofShadows]

Interesting

Spoiler

Show

Max decided to use her gun for once and it fired a .577 according to Dave. That is a real cartridge mind you. She also aimed for the knee which should slow this guy down some. Since she used a laser sight I guess Max isn't a crack shot.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah i guess the comic is a little bit more interesting. Most of all its interesting why max even bothered with her gun.
I guess it serves as a good test for someone's invulnerability. Especially if she is using some sort of armor piercing round.
Either she makes a hole in their knee thats likely not fatal. Or else she now know "alright i can at least punch him this hard"

But i can see i was wrong. There are in fact organisations who are dumb enough to put a bounty on max.
Would not want to be in their shoes when the retaliation is launched.
I mean its technically about the same as hiring someone to take a hit out on Max.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah i guess the comic is a little bit more interesting. Most of all its interesting why max even bothered with her gun.
I guess it serves as a good test for someone's invulnerability. Especially if she is using some sort of armor piercing round.
Either she makes a hole in their knee that's likely not fatal. Or else she now know "alright i can at least punch him this hard"

But i can see i was wrong. There are in fact organizations who are dumb enough to put a bounty on max.
Would not want to be in their shoes when the retaliation is launched.
I mean its technically about the same as hiring someone to take a hit out on Max.

I figure since he already punched Max, and was sturdy enough to survive his own punch, she has a decent idea where his floor is which means a .577 to the knee as an opening shot just disables him and makes life a bit easier rather then being a potentially fatal limb removal. And with less collateral then her build in powers.

[Traab]

I figure since he already punched Max, and was sturdy enough to survive his own punch, she has a decent idea where his floor is which means a .577 to the knee as an opening shot just disables him and makes life a bit easier rather then being a potentially fatal limb removal. And with less collateral then her build in powers.

I gotta admit, as far as reactions go, a .577 to the knee getting an "OW! What was that?" reaction means you are pretty darn tough. Also, I love the "EGADS!" reaction. At first I was like, "This dude hits on cora on the regular, there is no way maximas handgun is that shocking to him." Then I remembered she doesnt generally fire blackpowder rounds that can take down castle walls, so the noise is probably pretty darned impressive in an enclosed area.

[Radar]

I gotta admit, as far as reactions go, a .577 to the knee getting an "OW! What was that?" reaction means you are pretty darn tough. Also, I love the "EGADS!" reaction. At first I was like, "This dude hits on cora on the regular, there is no way maximas handgun is that shocking to him." Then I remembered she doesnt generally fire blackpowder rounds that can take down castle walls, so the noise is probably pretty darned impressive in an enclosed area.

Yeah, explosive-based projectile weapon can be quite shocking to anyone who is not accustomed to that and I guess the sophisticated alien guns are way beyond something as crud. From that mercenery's reaction to punches I assume he might be quite a powerhouse and he clearly has a powered-up form available: on page 884 he was all purple, big, glowing eyes and a disarming smile. On later pages he gradually winded down to regular human look.

[Keltest]

Yeah, explosive-based projectile weapon can be quite shocking to anyone who is not accustomed to that and I guess the sophisticated alien guns are way beyond something as crud. From that mercenery's reaction to punches I assume he might be quite a powerhouse and he clearly has a powered-up form available: on page 884 he was all purple, big, glowing eyes and a disarming smile. On later pages he gradually winded down to regular human look.

That might have just been dramatic lighting.

[Traab]

I just like how the bad guy is coming off as annoyed at this point. Max is going to have to put a little more omph into her next hit. Say a solid 50% boost since this isnt even bruising him yet? A part of me is also wondering what precisely his power set IS. Is it similar to anvil/shaw where the more force he meets the stronger he gets? Is it a sort of nemesis power where he counters whatever he faces like mr death toll with the imperious cape? Or was that last panel more to demonstrate that our favorite skeevy travel agents powers arent up to really accomplishing anything while max WAS at least hurting him?

[Max_Killjoy]

Yeah, it looks like Max hit him a lot harder than Captain Skeevy.

[Radar]

That might have just been dramatic lighting.

The eyes maybe but his posture, skin tone and visibly bulging veins certainly not and those features are consistently and gradually changing in subsequent pages.

[Max_Killjoy]

The eyes maybe but his posture, skin tone and visibly bulging veins certainly not and those features are consistently and gradually changing in subsequent pages.

Are you talking about Captain Skeev, or knuckledusters guy?

[lord_khaine]

I figure since he already punched Max, and was sturdy enough to survive his own punch, she has a decent idea where his floor is which means a .577 to the knee as an opening shot just disables him and makes life a bit easier rather then being a potentially fatal limb removal. And with less collateral then her build in powers.

Ah yeah if its something that can blow a normal leg off then its definitly reserved for people who has some degree of super toughness.
Now she can see he is still standing (but cursing loudly) from the shot. So it narrows his degree of toughness even further down.

It also narrows his IQ range even further down. When he can look at the recordings of the Vehemence fight.
And go "yes.. i want a piece of that action" despite being affected by hand held weapons.

[Traab]

Ah yeah if its something that can blow a normal leg off then its definitly reserved for people who has some degree of super toughness.
Now she can see he is still standing (but cursing loudly) from the shot. So it narrows his degree of toughness even further down.

It also narrows his IQ range even further down. When he can look at the recordings of the Vehemence fight.
And go "yes.. i want a piece of that action" despite being affected by hand held weapons.

I mean, be fair, vehemence lost an eye to a sniper round before he got full power. This hand gun bullet just made him say ow. It didnt even break the skin. Also, looking closer at the final image, there is some distortion on his face. So yeah, he is probably powering up now that he realizes he is under attack and reacting to it. So i figure next update is going to be him retaliating. Probably sending skeeve boy butt over teakettle.

[Radar]

Are you talking about Captain Skeev, or knuckledusters guy?

Knuckledusters guy who just lost his cap.

[Vahnavoi]

And no. Thats the crux of the issue. A well executed chop does not have nearly the amount of force behind itself that a well executed punch carry.

You have no experience with biomechanics of strikes nor did you think about it all that deeply if you think that's the case.

[tyckspoon]

Or was that last panel more to demonstrate that our favorite skeevy travel agents powers arent up to really accomplishing anything while max WAS at least hurting him?

I don't think there's much reason to believe there's anything going on here beyond standard brickiness yet; the energy wave/vibrations/whatever used to break the shield may turn out to be a function of the knuckleguards, and we haven't seen the guy demonstrate anything unusual after that.

Also yes it looks like Ray isn't really contributing much here, but then we know Max is able to hit the dude with actual superstrength while Ray may only have the power of being big.

[Dragonus45]

Ah yeah if its something that can blow a normal leg off then its definitly reserved for people who has some degree of super toughness.
Now she can see he is still standing (but cursing loudly) from the shot. So it narrows his degree of toughness even further down.

It also narrows his IQ range even further down. When he can look at the recordings of the Vehemence fight.
And go "yes.. i want a piece of that action" despite being affected by hand held weapons.

One can only assume that most supers, especially ones with powers that lend themselves to being brawling bricks, are prone to overestimating themselves and might even have a bit of EXTREME EGO problems. Also this guy seems to not be a total moron and also not alone so if nothing else he may have a solid sounding escape plan.