Oh my gods!! (Spoiler warning?)

[The MunchKING]

Rush did an interesting thesis on this.

wow, when he's not being a spring for Megaman, he really puts that robot brain to the test.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I dislike the idea of fatalism
Philosophical evidence not taken into consideration
If choice is an illusion, I am happy to believe in said illusion.

[RatElemental]

I dislike the idea of fatalism
Philosophical evidence not taken into consideration
If choice is an illusion, I am happy to believe in said illusion.

If it's an illusion, I still don't get what the big deal is. Also, still never seen an explanation for what "free will" actually is or does.

[Wizard_Lizard]

If it's an illusion, I still don't get what the big deal is. Also, still never seen an explanation for what "free will" actually is or does.

Free will is the ability to make a choice. Not based purely on external pressures, but because YOU want to.

[RatElemental]

Free will is the ability to make a choice. Not based purely on external pressures, but because YOU want to.

I reiterate: How can you tell the difference between having it, and not having it?

If you could rewind time perfectly such that no physical influence would change to before someone made a decision, what would you expect to see happen if they had free will?

And this is setting aside that determinists generally consider the internal factors of someone's nature/personality to be the most important factors in the decisions people make, even if they go on to say that those are ultimately decided by external factors that happened prior to said decisions.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I reiterate: How can you tell the difference between having it, and not having it

You probably couldn't, but I CHOOSE to believe in choice. Whether or not The choice was made by me, or factors beyond my control.
But if everything is predetermined how can anyone be at fault?
If I rob a bank, did I choose to rob the bank, or was it caused by external factors out of my control, if so, then I had no CHOICE But to rob it. And therefore should not be held responsible.

[RatElemental]

You probably couldn't, but I CHOOSE to believe in choice. Whether or not The choice was made by me, or factors beyond my control.
But if everything is predetermined how can anyone be at fault?
If I rob a bank, did I choose to rob the bank, or was it caused by external factors out of my control, if so, then I had no CHOICE But to rob it. And therefore should not be held responsible.

We're just going around in circles, but if you rob a bank, whether you freely chose to or not (whatever that means), you've shown yourself to be the type of person who will rob banks. I don't see why taking measures to keep you from robbing more banks is unreasonable, whether it be imprisonment or some sort of rehabilitation if such a thing is possible.

That said, I do think we've derailed this pretty hard, maybe a post in one of the general discussion forums would be better.

[Wizard_Lizard]

We're just going around in circles, but if you rob a bank, whether you freely chose to or not (whatever that means), you've shown yourself to be the type of person who will rob banks. I don't see why taking measures to keep you from robbing more banks is unreasonable, whether it be imprisonment or some sort of rehabilitation if such a thing is possible.

That said, I do think we've derailed this pretty hard, maybe a post in one of the general discussion forums would be better.

I admit to having a flawed analogy.
I still choose to believe in choice, factualy accurate or not.
I don't lose anything from this opinion, nor does it harm anyone, and this opinion pleases me. Therefore I see no reason to dispute it.

and yes, we should probably get back on track so...
All praise Banjo?

[ijuinkun]

You probably couldn't, but I CHOOSE to believe in choice. Whether or not The choice was made by me, or factors beyond my control.
But if everything is predetermined how can anyone be at fault?
If I rob a bank, did I choose to rob the bank, or was it caused by external factors out of my control, if so, then I had no CHOICE But to rob it. And therefore should not be held responsible.

To carry the idea to its conclusion, if everything is caused by external factors, then we have no choice but to hold you responsible, because that too has been predetermined.

[Wizard_Lizard]

To carry the idea to its conclusion, if everything is caused by external factors, then we have no choice but to hold you responsible, because that too has been predetermined.

Ye The analogy was flawed

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Rush did an interesting thesis on this.

You know, I’m with Fyraltari on his compatibilism train, but I appreciate this answer because it was actually a discussion about “Freewill” that led to a friend of mine convincing me we don’t libertarian free will.

(Also, re: Rush and deep philosophy, it’s probably not an accident that the reason I like most of my favorite Rush songs, such as “YYZ”, has little to do with any of their philosophy. I’m not much of an individualist )

Oh, and I’m with RatElemental here. If you’re the kind of person who enjoys robbing banks (or punching people in the face), it’s not unreasonable to expect that people will do their best to change/prevent your behavior, regardless of your moral culpability. Recognizing that there’s no moral culpability involved, however, does mean there shouldn’t be any punitive about your rehabilitation/containment.

[Fyraltari]

It's also weird to say that that determinism means people don't have moral cuplability for their actions when people's sense of morality is a major cause of their actions.

[Wizard_Lizard]

It's also weird to say that that determinism means people don't have moral cuplability for their actions when people's sense of morality is a major cause of their actions.

I wasnt talking about determinism. I was talking about fatalism. Which means that everything is predetermined by the gods or some divine being. Also I hate astrology. For the same reasons.

[Lord Torath]

I think Bill Watterson put it best:

Calvin: I decided I believe in astrology and horoscopes.

Hobbes: Really?

Calvin: You bet. It only makes sense that every facet of our daily lives should depend upon the position of celestial bodies hudreds of millions of miles away. Look here. Today I'll have "Key policies implemented". I get to have my way!

Hobbes: Oh those mischievous planets.

Also:

Calvin: I've decided to be a fatalist. All events are preordained and unalterable. That way, if anything bad happens, it's not my fault.

Hobbes: <Trips Calvin>

Calvin: WAUGH!

Hobbes: Too bad you were fated to do that.

Calvin: THAT WASN'T FATE!

[ijuinkun]

I wasnt talking about determinism. I was talking about fatalism. Which means that everything is predetermined by the gods or some divine being. Also I hate astrology. For the same reasons.

There is something to be said for the idea that the time of year when you are born (or conceived) has an effect on your personality and health, but it has nothing to do with the stars and everything to do with the annual seasonal cycle. Temperature and humidity and seasonal exercise patterns would affect the mother and developing embryo, and would affect the newborn baby. Also, prior to the 20th century, people's diets would change with the seasons, with fresh fruit and vegetables available primarily in summer/autumn, and primarily preserved stuff eaten in winter/spring, and this would likely impact in utero development as well.

[Wizard_Lizard]

There is something to be said for the idea that the time of year when you are born (or conceived) has an effect on your personality and health, but it has nothing to do with the stars and everything to do with the annual seasonal cycle. Temperature and humidity and seasonal exercise patterns would affect the mother and developing embryo, and would affect the newborn baby. Also, prior to the 20th century, people's diets would change with the seasons, with fresh fruit and vegetables available primarily in summer/autumn, and primarily preserved stuff eaten in winter/spring, and this would likely impact in utero development as well.

wow..... I did not expect a scientific explaination but thanks.