demogorgon is a wuss (4e)

[thefinalbattle]

(warning: rant ahead) so i was checking out demogorgon's stat block, when i noticed something: the damage. his all-powerful, ultimate attack "dual aspects of demogorgon" does a max of FIFTY damage. I'm not very familiar with high level characters (actually... i don't know anything at all about characters above level 3), but i think you would have, like, 50 times that much hp. also, he's wussier than orcus (who has touch of death to obliterate him in one hit). anyone else feel this way?

[Starbuck_II]

(warning: rant ahead) so i was checking out demogorgon's stat block, when i noticed something: the damage. his all-powerful, ultimate attack "dual aspects of demogorgon" does a max of FIFTY damage. I'm not very familiar with high level characters (actually... i don't know anything at all about characters above level 3), but i think you would have, like, 50 times that much hp. also, he's wussier than orcus (who has touch of death to obliterate him in one hit). anyone else feel this way?

Dude, you don't get a Con mod to hps in 4th edition. That means you aren't likely to get more than 170 at level 20.
Fighters get +6/level after 1st so with 24 Con (likely much higher) = around 157 at level 20.

So no, 50 x that amount.
But yes, the damage dealt is only 1/3rd of a defenders health at level 20.

[Asbestos]

Actually he's a bit superior to Orcus. Orcus was built using a now-outmoded monster building formula where Solos are really just sacks of HP. While Demogorgon may seem weaker, IIRC he has better defenses (over a year later I still catch myself writing 'saves') and is less hampered by the action economy deficit that plagues most solos (especially MM1 solos) Orcus' death touch is sort of his only threatening ability and in a few Orcus killing builds directly leads to his demise.

[Mando Knight]

Compared to Tiamat (5 moves/round) and Vecna (aura of death-making)? Yes, everyone is a wuss except for Bahamut.

[bosssmiley]

(warning: rant ahead) so i was checking out demogorgon's stat block, when i noticed something: the damage. his all-powerful, ultimate attack "dual aspects of demogorgon" does a max of FIFTY damage. I'm not very familiar with high level characters (actually... i don't know anything at all about characters above level 3), but i think you would have, like, 50 times that much hp. also, he's wussier than orcus (who has touch of death to obliterate him in one hit). anyone else feel this way?

Gone are the days (1-3E) when Demogorgon could drive you insane, dominate you, or kill you outright with nothing more than a Paddingtonian hard stare.

D&D Padded Sumo Edition strikes again.

[Tiki Snakes]

Eh. If you think that a level appropriate encounter with Demogorgon is too easy, you are simply sending too high level PC's at him. *shrug*

Simply put, the whole point of being the right level to face the guy is that it means you stand a fair chance. If that doesn't fit your mental image of a fight with demogorgon, throw them at the big monkey earlier.

[Mystic Muse]

in terms of crazy baboons Rafiki is better than Demogorgon.

and does Bahamut have stats now? or are you just saying he's not a wuss because he's currently your avatar?

[Mando Knight]

Eh. If you think that a level appropriate encounter with Demogorgon is too easy, you are simply sending too high level PC's at him. *shrug*

Simply put, the whole point of being the right level to face the guy is that it means you stand a fair chance. If that doesn't fit your mental image of a fight with demogorgon, throw them at the big monkey earlier.

Exactly. A level 30 party isn't the kind to be fazed by Demogorgon: they're the kind of people who are nearly gods themselves and get written down in the annals of history to be disbelieved by people even a hundred years later because their deeds are too outrageous. They're Beowulf, Kamina, and Gandalf, not Scooby Doo and the gang.

If you want your party to be left a gibbering mess after seeing Demogorgon, send him after the party before they hit Epic.

and does Bahamut have stats now? or are you just saying he's not a wuss because he's currently your avatar?

He appears in the Draconomicon 2. One of the previews was of his humanoid form (the Old Man with the Canaries), which is a level 36 Solo with Leader capabilities. Tiamat and Vecna are level 35 Solos.

[Mystic Muse]

..........there's a Draconinomicon 2?

[thefinalbattle]

one's going out.

[nightwyrm]

Demogorgon is a controller. Did you guys miss his powers to daze, dominate and knock you unconscious? Or the ability to daze anyone who starts their turn within 10 squares of him.

[Kaiyanwang]

Eh. If you think that a level appropriate encounter with Demogorgon is too easy, you are simply sending too high level PC's at him. *shrug*

But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

[Mystic Muse]

@^
There are rules in the DMG to make your own monsters so you could make your own version of him.

[jmbrown]

But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

The DMG has rules for advancing monsters. It basically involves giving them more Hp, better defenses, and higher attack values. You can safely increase monsters about 5 levels before they lose their *oomph*

Besides, if you think Demogorgon is too easy then pair him with some minions or maybe an elite. Just because they're called "solo" creatures doesn't mean they have to be fought alone.

[Mordokai]

Honestly? From what I've seen, he looks pretty darn impressive. But then, I have not seen anything above level 10, so I can't really say what he looks like in practice.

All I'll say is that the picture of him in MM2 almost had me laughting with hysteria. This has been kinda the case in 3.5, but 4E has pushed it a tad further. I mean, we're talking about fraggin prince of demons and here we have a two headed monkey? Seriously? You expect me to take a two headed monkey seriously? Yeah... try again.

[HMS Invincible]

But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

pg 174 dmg. Boosting a monster’s level is easy. Just increase its
attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 for every level you
add. For every two levels, increase the damage it deals
with its attacks by 1. The monster also gains extra hit
points at each level, based on its role (see the “Monster
Statistics by Role” table on page 184).
Decreasing a monster’s level works like increasing
it, but in reverse. For each level down, reduce the
creature’s attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 and drop
its hit points based on its role. For every two levels, also
reduce its damage by 1.
This process works best for adjusting a monster’s
level up to five higher or lower. Beyond that, the monster
changes so much that you’d do better to start with
another creature of the desired role and level range.

And, don't forget to give him magical items.

[Tiki Snakes]

But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

There are standard rules for advancing ANY monster. It's simple. But if you have already become as powerful as the prince of demons, then the prince of demons isn't going to melt your brain merely by looking at you. He got there too late.

Now, if he rocks up at your 'we've hit level 26!' office party, there's going to be trouble.

So, anyway, just looked the fellow up on the compendium. Really, he's NOT some huge wuss that I can see. Level 34 and the amount of horrible conditions he can chuck out, oh god.

I mean, his recharging 'dual aspects of demogorgon' power deals loads of damage, sure....and knocks unconcious (save ends) anyone who it hits within 10 squares. And only targets enemies, so his minions and cultists can be happily in place already to begin the coup-de-graceing.

Add in that as a minor action on each of his 2 turns per round his individual heads are doing cool stuff too. Aemul dazes (and damages), but if they are already dazed, he dominates. Hethradiah does damage, but also makes a pc use an at-will of demogorgon's choice against a target of demogorgon's choice.

Note, both gaze attacks above are close blast 5 attacks, not even just single target.
Oh, and his 'little' attacks? Tentacle blast is a close blast 5 that dishes out ongoing damage....and if the target is already taking ongoing damage, it increases it by 5. It basically stacks with itself.

Remember he has 2 turns just to himself.

And if you're worried about him being kited, well, a ranged 50 attack that teleports the target to within his favourite close-blast range seems like it works pretty nicely.


OH, one last thing; The minor action gaze attacks? Are named for each head, but there's nothing stopping him using both every round instead of having a little walk.

And I nearly missed the bit where any enemy starting it's turn within 10 squares is targeted with a free daze attack. :)

Seems pretty Imposing to me, frankly.

[jmbrown]

Honestly? From what I've seen, he looks pretty darn impressive. But then, I have not seen anything above level 10, so I can't really say what he looks like in practice.

All I'll say is that the picture of him in MM2 almost had me laughting with hysteria. This has been kinda the case in 3.5, but 4E has pushed it a tad further. I mean, we're talking about fraggin prince of demons and here we have a two headed monkey? Seriously? You expect me to take a two headed monkey seriously? Yeah... try again.

I guess one can't distract you with "Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!"

[Mando Knight]

..........there's a Draconinomicon 2?

Next Tuesday there will be. Until then, it's a bunch of books in a "Do not stock until November 17" box.

But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

And the characters that have a chance to beat him are the kind that sit at gods' right hands, and assault the darkest pits of the Abyss for a workout. The Fighter isn't Joe Schmoe and his +1 Sword, he's closer to Herakles or a shounen hero in the later parts of a manga series.

[Kaiyanwang]

ThankS for the replies. FCI had suggestion, too, to increase the spell-likes and add vicious attack to the princes.

Are there edition equivalent suggestions?

[Mando Knight]

ThankS for the replies. FCI had suggestion, too, to increase the spell-likes and add vicious attack to the princes.

Are there edition equivalent suggestions?

It's an idea to swap in some class powers for Demogorgon to use on a limited basis, most likely from the Chaos Sorcerer or Warlock power sets. (As if you applied a template, but only gave him the powers instead of the HP and defense boosts, etc.) I've never tried this out in practice, but considering how many powers high-level solos have anyway, I'd say it's probably not too much so long as you don't give him a 7d10+modifiers burst attack as an at-will...

Draconomicon 1 says that a DM can treat all Dragons as if they had the Ritual Caster feat, so it's not much of a stretch to apply that to Demon Princes or Archdevils... which will allow them to prepare their lairs with devastating tricks before the adventurers get there...

[Kaiyanwang]

It's an idea to swap in some class powers for Demogorgon to use on a limited basis, most likely from the Chaos Sorcerer or Warlock power sets.

Something like the (Sp) swapping table in FCII. I see.

[Mystic Muse]

I guess one can't distract you with "Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!"

nope. because see this is a two headed monkey.

you want awesome in your campaign? put in Rafiki.

[The Glyphstone]

So if Demogorgon's a Controller and Bahamut's a Leader....who's the Defender and the Striker?

Adventuring party of the GODS!

[Mando Knight]

So if Demogorgon's a Controller and Bahamut's a Leader....who's the Defender and the Striker?

Adventuring party of the GODS!

Vecna's a Controller, but hates anyone who isn't undead. I'm pretty sure Bahamut's a Soldier (Leader), and Tiamat is a flat-out Brute with 5 Standard and Minor actions per round and a ridiculously massive Close Burst 30 recharging attack power that slows and causes a large amount of nearly irresistible ongoing damage. And that's not including her Close Blast 5 at-will that blinds (save ends) or her at-will Domination gaze... (in short, she's a ridiculously massively overpowered monster that will kill you five ways in a single turn. Fortunately, you won't see your best friend gut you like a pig.)

[Gametime]

Vecna's a Controller, but hates anyone who isn't undead. I'm pretty sure Bahamut's a Soldier (Leader), and Tiamat is a flat-out Brute with 5 Standard and Minor actions per round and a ridiculously massive Close Burst 30 recharging attack power that slows and causes a large amount of nearly irresistible ongoing damage. And that's not including her Close Blast 5 at-will that blinds (save ends) or her at-will Domination gaze... (in short, she's a ridiculously massively overpowered monster that will kill you five ways in a single turn. Fortunately, you won't see your best friend gut you like a pig.)

On the other hand, her fixed initiative means that a sufficiently-determined munchkin can (and has!) build a character with literally no chance of failing to kill her before she takes a single move except rolling a natural 1.

One thing to keep in mind, with regard to the topic, is that Demogorgon in previous editions was only killable by the most powerful epic characters. That's still true in Fourth...but being the most powerful epic character is built into the core rules instead of being bundled into a second-rate, poorly-balanced splatbook. The expectations have changed, which is why Demogorgon looks more approachable than he used to.

[Kurald Galain]

If you want your party to be left a gibbering mess after seeing Demogorgon, send him after the party before they hit Epic.

Then they'll be a gibbering mess (save ends)

[Mando Knight]

Then they'll be a gibbering mess (save ends)

Gibbering Mess:
You take a -15 penalty to saving throws.
You are dominated by the creature that inflicted the condition.
You cannot speak, except in random syllables that mean nothing.

Save to end that.

[Volkov]

Demogorgon has been on a long painful road to wusshood ever since his heydey in 1e. After that peak of power, he sort of declined as the editions went by.

[Tiki Snakes]

Vecna's a Controller, but hates anyone who isn't undead. I'm pretty sure Bahamut's a Soldier (Leader), and Tiamat is a flat-out Brute...

Yeah, as they are actually more 'band of monster's you're actually looking for an artillery and a lurker, if you want all bases covered, rather than striker etc. :)

Actually, with two controlling types (Vecna and Demogorgon), Bahamut running soldierly defence (with some leading on the side) and Tiamat and her many turns running the brutish damage, you've got a pretty intimidating super-epic team already. :)

Not to mention bahamut may or may not come with half a dozen level 30 or so gold dragons free, as part of his stat-block.