Epic Level Combat

[Exthalion]

In the FR setting, I just gated in 10 Hecatoncheires and ordered all of them to kill everything with the breath of life in it in the City of Shade. My caster level is 38.

I told them to focus on the magic users first if at all possible.

Now, should this deal with most or all of the magic users who might be a problem? And was there a better way to kill the people and leave the city intact?

[Killer Angel]

Hecatoncheires? how gross...
I don't know the level of the magic users in the City of Shade, but if they are a concern for you, I suppose we're speaking 'bout epic, right?
I doubt you can take them unprepared.
Anyway (assuming that, for some reason, a city that floats in the air and is imbued with magic and ruled by magic users, has no contingency plans for an attack and no foresight of it), the simplest thing is: the magic users teleport away. Later, they will come back for you.

[tyckspoon]

A swarm of Huge destructive monstrosities is not the best way of clearing a city without doing major property damage (that would be a Shadow-pocalypse, although that's a lot easier for the city to counteract with lower-level power.) They also probably won't catch any spellcasters that are significant to you, because they don't have any ability to take them by surprise or to stop them from acting if they run into them ("A Hecatoncheires?? Ok, do I have the spells to deal with this? No? Celerity! Teleport! Goodbye!" Alternately, "Yes. Timestop! Dead/banished Hecatoncheires!") So.. I think mostly you'll just annoy the Powers What Be of the city without meaningfully achieving your goal.

[BeholderSlayer]

Were I the DM and you did this, I would be laughing. Really, 10 hecatonaires? Shade has at least one wizard capable of Netherese magic, as well as epic level magic, possibly more.

Your summons would be handily obliterated without much of a thought, as hecatonaires are incredibly weak enemies that could basically do zero damage to a properly played epic level mage, especially one that had hundreds of years in the Plane of Shadow to layer himself with protective epic spells.

The easiest way to accomplish your goal would have been to do it yourself. Develop an epic spell able to kill everything you needed it to kill, and use DC reduction mechanics to drop the spellcraft DC as low as you needed it to go. Give the spell no save, a massive area of effect, etc. The typical way to get the DC low enough is just make it a ritual which takes you many, many days to cast. If that's not an option and it's incredibly important you kill them all RIGHT NOW, well....it probably won't happen because the spell casters in Shade can counter whatever you toss at them.

[Exthalion]

In this campaign there is no epic magic. At all.

Now, since we have established this was a bad idea, does anyone have a better one?

[Zanatos777]

Infernals/Atropals would probably be better for this. They are both teleporters with very high SR and other defenses. Oh and of course bring your party, they must also be really awesome.

[Exthalion]

Is there any high level wizard trick to use? I mean if summoning is not the way to go, what is?

I have more or less every wizard spell and psionic power at my disposal.

[Mushroom Ninja]

In the FR setting, I just gated in 10 Hecatoncheires and ordered all of them to kill everything with the breath of life in it in the City of Shade. My caster level is 38.

You might still have trouble with lich wizards.

[big teej]

"I wish they were dead"


wish can pull that off right?

[SurlySeraph]

Eh, Hecatoncheires aren't a bad strategy. SR 70 is a pain even for high-level wizards. The city will be fairly wrecked, most of the slaves and such will die, and undead and competent wizards will mostly be able to escape, and change-averse unaging wizards will probably manage to take out the Big Hs before the city is completely depopulated. Now send in something more subtle for mop-up. Living Spells of Disjunction, for example.

[KellKheraptis]

First, pray the Chrono-Legionaire isn't in Shade, as he'll handily pwn all 10 of them in a spectacular display of temporal maneuverability. Secondly, any high level wizard > Heca army. Third and most importantly, if you just wanted to level the place, Locate City Bomb? And finally, did you research/scry the area/inhabitants extensively, while covering said furtive endeavor, so as not to draw the ire of, oh say, a dozen or two archmagi just as paranoid as you should be? The balance of mages exists in Faerun similar to the policy of mutual deterence in the real world. Old El doesn't off Tamm because he'd probably eat it too in the process, and all of them have equally nuclear allies.

[BeholderSlayer]

First, pray the Chrono-Legionaire isn't in Shade, as he'll handily pwn all 10 of them in a spectacular display of temporal maneuverability. Secondly, any high level wizard > Heca army. Third and most importantly, if you just wanted to level the place, Locate City Bomb? And finally, did you research/scry the area/inhabitants extensively, while covering said furtive endeavor, so as not to draw the ire of, oh say, a dozen or two archmagi just as paranoid as you should be? The balance of mages exists in Faerun similar to the policy of mutual deterence in the real world. Old El doesn't off Tamm because he'd probably eat it too in the process, and all of them have equally nuclear allies.

To be fair, El doesn't off Tamm because he can't. Elminster is so gimped that the only way he's survived so long is by pure Greenwood fiat and the fact that he's got "auto diety win" in his pocket.

[Exthalion]

Well, high level wizards are supposed to be a few salient divine abilities removed from gods. So what do they do without epic magic to exert their power upon the world?

That a mid level adventurer can off a king and set themselves up is obvious. But how does a high level wizard nuke a kingdom without RAI v RAW cheese?

[mootoall]

Hmm, it'd be nice if you could research a chained, mass Love's Pain. I like that idea.

[Alleran]

To be fair, El doesn't off Tamm because he can't. Elminster is so gimped that the only way he's survived so long is by pure Greenwood fiat and the fact that he's got "auto diety win" in his pocket.

Personally, I cannot stand the ELH statblock that he has. It just... sucks. I can design a better build than that without even trying particularly hard. I find the Dicefreaks version is a better approximation of El's skills on the whole, really, and the same goes for their version of the Chosen template.

(Seriously, 4d12 damage per hour? Weaksauce, and this stuff was supposed to one-shot old and powerful Phaerimm.)

[JeminiZero]

No "RAI vs RAW"? I guess that rules out a 'locate city' bomb :P

Actually, the Fell Drain-Wightpocalypse version of the Locate City Bomb works perfectly by RAW/RAI. But it will mostly wipe out low level commoners rather than targetting the casters OP wants.

Seriously though, getting to competent casters on their own turf is extremely difficult. Traps, minions and contingencies all stand in your way, and thats assuming they don't just teleport away. Arguably your best bet for sniping them through all their defences is some sort of Mind Rape/Love's Pain abuse (for a spell like this, being cast repeatedly, it might be worthwhile making a trap out of it, and offing the enemy casters one at a time).

[Aharon]

Well, summoning isn't that bad, but you shouldn't look at the brutes. By the books a Hecantoncheire has 52HD and CR57.
If you can summon those, research the ability to get Ancient Prismatic Dragons instead. It's also CR 57, but has 68HD and CL 32 - that way, you summon 10 casters that are almost as good as you yourself are.

May I ask what your goal in doing that is? That might help us find better strategies.

Finally, you should take a minute or so to ponder the consequences of using stuff like the locate city bomb or fell drain wightpocalypse. Some DMs don't like players pulling that kind of stunt - perhaps you should ask out of game where your DM draws the line, so you don't do something he ins't prepared to deal with and you get a "Rocks fall, everyone dies". (Unless that is what you wish to achieve, but that would be kind of immature).

[Killer Angel]

"I wish they were dead"


wish can pull that off right?

No way.

The limits of Wish are precisely stated.

[Exthalion]

I am trying to steel the Mythalar and then blow the city to doomsday. If possible I would rather like to preserve the city so as to get at all the high level magic items there.

[big teej]

No way.

The limits of Wish are precisely stated.

well.... I have two responses to this

1) it says you can try to do something greater than what is listed, it may however, pervert the wish.

2) relatively speaking, I'm new to the game, never played a full caster, never had anyone in my group play a full caster, I am largely unaware (and thus far uncaring) of spells in general, its never been an area of great interest for me.... so I apologize for my ignorance =(

[Killer Angel]

1) it says you can try to do something greater than what is listed, it may however, pervert the wish.

The greater the request, the greater the risk... and the DM decide.
But such a mass killing is way out of the spell's real power.

2) relatively speaking, I'm new to the game, never played a full caster, never had anyone in my group play a full caster, I am largely unaware (and thus far uncaring) of spells in general, its never been an area of great interest for me.... so I apologize for my ignorance =(

Don't worry, I won't bite you (and neither I'm so strong in my knowledge... )

[Moriato]

The greater the request, the greater the risk... and the DM decide.
But such a mass killing is way out of the spell's real power.

I dissagree.

Nothing is out of Wish's power. It's Wish. It's just highly unlikely your DM will let you get away with it instead of... Oh I dunno, turning them all into liches, or transporting you a billion years into the future where they're all dead.

Once upon a time Wish didn't even have a list of effects, it just did whatever you wished for. Maybe. I get the impression that's now it's supposed to be "Here's the things that wish does without repruccusions. It can do anything else you want, too, but your DM is likely to screw you over if you try it".

[Exthalion]

Am I too assume that high level wizards are really only obscenely powerful in D&D combat as opposed to warfare? So for a few minutes each day they rain arcane death down on their foes and twist reality to their will and the rest of the time they are commoners with good will saves and a lot of skill points who could bring down the smite if anyone triggers an initiative roll?

[Kythorian]

Epic level wizards only need a few minutes to end warfare...Any decently built wizard won't reach the point where they are a commoner. Worst case, if so many foes come at them in a row, each watching those ahead of them fall, pitifully failing to achieve anything other than their own destruction, but if they keep coming long enough, eventually the wizard runs low on spells, and teleports to somewhere safe. And they return tomorrow to do it again. No army or force short of another (or group of other) epic casters can do much to an epic caster. Oh, sure, you might succeed in destroying the city(though its unlikely...they will probably see it coming with some divination spells if they are smart, and they are epic wizards, so they are VERY smart by definition). But like someone else said, there is just no way you are going to catch anyone very important. They can just teleport out if the situation is too bad, and return the following day to kill off whatever remains of your forces.

Epic level combat in general is just rediculous. Take it to the extreme of an entire city with a whole bunch of epic casters, and there just isn't any point. But if all you are after is some artifact, you can do the mass summoning of powerful things(though like someone said, prismatic dragons are a whole lot better), and just treat them as a distraction while you waltz in and take the thing after whoever was guarding it teleports out or is busy killing your dragons.

[Eldariel]

Am I too assume that high level wizards are really only obscenely powerful in D&D combat as opposed to warfare? So for a few minutes each day they rain arcane death down on their foes and twist reality to their will and the rest of the time they are commoners with good will saves and a lot of skill points who could bring down the smite if anyone triggers an initiative roll?

Well, it depends. A Wizard can burn through his spells fast. But in Warfare, all it takes is few Wizard spells to decimate entire armies. Or create equivalent powers. A gated/bound creature can go all day. And Wizard casting one spell an hour is still wreaking more havoc in war than 100 men.

[Tyndmyr]

Am I too assume that high level wizards are really only obscenely powerful in D&D combat as opposed to warfare? So for a few minutes each day they rain arcane death down on their foes and twist reality to their will and the rest of the time they are commoners with good will saves and a lot of skill points who could bring down the smite if anyone triggers an initiative roll?

Well, technically yes. It's just that the amount they can accomplish in those few minutes is ludicrous. Without comparable counters on the other side, they can utterly destroy everything that needs to be destroyed without worrying about the commoner issue.

[Exthalion]

Well, since you were all seem to know how high level combat works, would you please give me a sample of what that would look like? What spells? What tricks? What summons?

I have heard Prismatic dragons. What else?

[Exthalion]

Or do high level wizards just summon surprisingly small numbers of high CR monsters to battle each other since direct combat is almost impossible?

Really, wizard are held up as the examples of work breaking power. What besides tricks of questionable rulings such as locate city or which require outside knowledge not even present in the game system and DMs will outright ban like the anti osmium bomb.

What do wizards have to deserve their reputation as broken?

[mootoall]

Well, they're primarily considered "broken" mostly in an adventuring party context. They can take a job that any other character do, and do it a thousand times better, because, you know, magic. Then, in one on one combat, again, their variety is what makes them so good. Fighting a Fighter? Will save or die/lose/suck. Rogue? True seeing so they can't hide/sneak attack. Ranger? Protection from Arrows. Cleric? Okay, maybe they're equally matched. Same with Druid.* Bard? Don't even try. In an "I rule the world" context, it's something like "Contingency: Someone thinks something bad about me, Gate in 2,000 Aboleths to eat them." That's why it's so hard to fight them. Which is why a lot of people have suggested Prismatic Dragons. Get a buttload of spellcasters on your side as well as you, and you're golden. The only way to beat epic magic is more epic magic, plus superior planning, plus pretty much the DM being willing for you to take them down. I mean, if s/he really wants to keep these spellcasters alive, there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.

*I'm sure I'm wrong about these two, but let me know.

[herrhauptmann]

What year of the campaign is your character playing in? Also, does your DM allow fluff from the novels to work its way into the game?
All of the following takes place in the books by Paul S Kemp

Spoiler

Show

ex: The second incarnation of the kingdom of netheril has 2 floating cities (shade and sakkors), the Hulorn of Selgaunt is a puppet of the Netherese (and a sorc/Theurge of Shar) and rules all of Sembia in the name of Netherese. One of the princes of shade is a god, the chosen of shar.
And the mythal that powers Sakkors is a sentient one, one which can divert all its power to a single item if it wishes. "Your longsword is only a +1? How about we upgrade it to +9, dragonbane, vorpal for the rest of this fight?"

But all that's after the year of lightning storms.
Stated within the novels, it's claimed that only the Most High (leader of Netheril), would have the ability to bind and control Mephistopheles. I don't care what his CR is, he's still a duke of hell.


The locate city bomb/wightocalypse could be useful as the beginning of a war against shade. Destroy their minions and slaves, it'll only inconvenience them for a little while. Use dominated monsters (perhaps give a kraken airbreathing and flight) to futher whittle them away in repeated incidents. THEN do your massive gate shtick. If you can pull even a few of their epic wizards away, it'll be worth it.