Villainous Competition XXXVIII: Spooks and Spectres

[jdizzlean]

Welcome to Round 38 of the Villainous Competition!

Previous Competitions

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Round One: Leader of Armies
Round Two: Nature's Revenger
Round Three: Double Agent
Round Four: Grave Keeper
Round Five: Crime Lord
Round Six: Ultimate Predator
Round Seven: Wicked Witch
Round Eight: Master of the Tundra
Round Nine: The Power of Villainous Thinking
Round Ten: Henchman Are Villains Too
Round Eleven: The Higher They Rise The Harder They Fall
Round Twelve: Power Comes at a Price
Round Thirteen: The Gadgeteer - You Are Not Batman
Round Fourteen: The Thing That Should Not Be
Round Fifteen: The Horsemen Are Drawing Nearer
Round Sixteen: Burn Baby Burn
Round Seventeen: It's Alive!
Round Eighteen: This is Heresy
Round Nineteen: He Slimed Me!
Round Twenty: Elder Evil
Round Twenty-One: Yarr!
Round Twenty-Two: I Am The Night!
Round Twenty-Three: Two Heads Are Better Than One!
Round Twenty-Four: Wrong For The Right Reasons!
Round Twenty-Five: Keeper of the Gate
Round Twenty-Six: Get In MY BELLY (Swallow Whole)
Round Twenty-Seven: Multiple Personality Disorder
Round Twenty-Eight: Tiny Only!
Round Twenty-Nine: Halloween Special
Round Thirty: One Feat to Rule Them ALL
Round Thirty-One: In Cold Blood
Round Thirty-Two: oh HELL NO!
Round Thirty-Three: The Do Over
Round Thirty-Four: Sword and Board
Round Thirty-Five: I Shall Call Him Mini Me!
Round Thirty-Six: The Broken Man
Round Thirty-Seven: Yin and Yang

We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

Contestants:
You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Secret Laboratory:
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

Deadlines:
Contestants will have until 23:59 MST Thursday November 19th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 MST Saturday December 5th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

Judging:
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
Originality - Is it unexpected?
Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

Presentation:
Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Note:
There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

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CR	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
2	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
3	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
4	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
5	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
6	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
7	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
8	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
9	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
10	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
11	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
12	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
13	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
14	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
15	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
16	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
17	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
18	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
19	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
20	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

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[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]CR[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class[/B][/th]
[th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
[th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
[th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

You can use the table below for Spells.

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Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3rd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
7th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
8th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
9th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
10th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
11th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
13th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
15th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
16th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
17th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
18th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
19th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
20th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Code Immediately Below,

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[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
[th][B]1st[/B][/th]
[th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
[th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
[th][B]4th[/B][/th]
[th][B]5th[/B][/th]
[th][B]6th[/B][/th]
[th][B]7th[/B][/th]
[th][B]8th[/B][/th]
[th][B]9th[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Speculation:
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:

Spooks and Spectres

Limitations

• Build a incorporeal being of some sort, take that as liberally or as restrictively as you wish
• Ghostwalk Ghost Template is banned
• Eat some candy.
• Must be Evil

We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
So, start your evil plotting!

Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

PM: Jdizzlean
Subject: Villainous Competition 38, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 35 Questions in the header.

Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:




As always: let's keep it nice.

I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.

New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

Spoiler

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It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

Novolin
Yklikt

[jdizzlean]

Clarifications

Unearthed Arcana variant rules are limited: The variant character options (such as Wildshape Ranger and Thug Fighter) should not be penalized. Flaws and traits may be penalized by judges, whereas item familiars, gestalt, alternate skill systems, alternate magic systems, alternate crafting rules, generic base classes, LA buyoff, fractional saves/BAB, and bloodlines are banned. Anything not mentioned here is up to individual judges.

d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
- I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
- For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
- For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
- Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.




Everyone, have fun!

[AvatarVecna]

Skeletons illegal? In my spoopy contest? It's more likely than you think.

Will build for this probably. If I don't, will judge.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Ooh. Ooh! I've been sitting on a character concept for ages that'll work nicely here!

[Falontani]

Incorporeal eh? Interesting...

[AvatarVecna]

I've got one mechanically finished, just gotta get the silly backstory written up, and make some snapshots. For now, sleep!

EDIT: And since now I'm dedicated to building, will probably submit a second build too.

[Venger]

Sounds fun. I have an idea. I'll see if I can figure something out.

[Thurbane]

Definitely down to cook for this one! Nice!

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, on the one hand, I do ahve 2 slightly fleshed out concepts for it lyng around.

On the other, the next 2 weeks will likely be horror regarding free time (Job+Family visiting), so....lets see how it goes.

[Doctor Despair]

I don't suppose someone would be willing to walk me through how CR is calculated for the purposes of this competition, would they? Are we using the base rules (racial CR, if any, +X for X associated and 1/2 X for nonassociated class levels), or the Tribble formula, or something else?

I was also wondering what the policy typically was on gear for our villains. Is it NPC WBL, or PC, or something else?

Thanks for any clarification folks can offer! :)

[Venger]

It says in the OP:

All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

So take the CR of your normal creature, add +1 for any class level, and add CR mods for templates, and that's pretty much it.

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't suppose someone would be willing to walk me through how CR is calculated for the purposes of this competition, would they? Are we using the base rules (racial CR, if any, +X for X associated and 1/2 X for nonassociated class levels), or the Tribble formula, or something else?

I was also wondering what the policy typically was on gear for our villains. Is it NPC WBL, or PC, or something else?

Thanks for any clarification folks can offer! :)

I think the main post says to treat all classes as associated, add it on top of the Racial CR on the table. I like to add an HD column, because that makes it easier to understand. I've seen some entries in the past that used different creatures for the CR at different phases of development. Like it started out as a small cat and eventually became a templated lion with class levels. And I didn't see any penalties for that particular approach, but again, it's gonna depend on both the write up and the judge if you take that approach.

Wealth is treated similar to iron chef. There's a presumption of basic level appropriate gear, but if you need a specific item to make it work, it's up to the judge to decide if that warrants a penalty or not.

[Thurbane]

Having a bit more trouble deciding on an idea than I initially thought...

[Doctor Despair]

Having a bit more trouble deciding on an idea than I initially thought...

I am likewise struggling. There's so many directions to go in! My build has changed drastically over the past 2 weeks.

[jdizzlean]

I've had a surprising number of PM's requesting ruling on Epic Feats of various kinds. In order to keep the playing field level, I'm going to say that if they meet the metric outlined in the OP:

Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

so if what is being thought of meets that metric, and you can explain it to the satisfaction of the judge, you may use them, but otherwise it may be better to steer clear of them.

[3SecondCultist]

Ooooh, I have ideas for this!! Spoopy ideas, no less.

[Doctor Despair]

I've had a surprising number of PM's requesting ruling on Epic Feats of various kinds. In order to keep the playing field level, I'm going to say that if they meet the metric outlined in the OP:



so if what is being thought of meets that metric, and you can explain it to the satisfaction of the judge, you may use them, but otherwise it may be better to steer clear of them.

On the subject of Epic Feats, I was wondering how we were handling epic progression for our villains. I asked in the Simple Raw Questions thread, but as we run on the CR system, but I wasn't sure which set of rules to apply here.

Spoiler: Skip Williams Quote

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When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you "go epic" when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?

A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster's character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.)

A creature's ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.

Non-authoritative, but this suggests that ECL has no bearing on it, which is at least a solid answer.

Spoiler: ELH Quote

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MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
As first introduced in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting
(and discussed in detail in Savage Species), the effective character
level (ECL) of any creature more powerful than the standard
races in the Player’s Handbook is equal to the creature’s
Hit Dice and class levels (if any) plus its level adjustment. This
replaces the rule in the Monster Manual that states that a creature’s
“monster level” is equal to its Hit Dice.
Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the
base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its
class (rather than the progression shown on Table 1–1) until it
has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level,
it uses the progressions shown on Table 1–1.
In any other place in this book where “character level” is
indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For
example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a
13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to
select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.

OK, so this suggests that level adjustment IS counted towards becoming epic and selecting feats for monsters (should we consider that as NPCs, or is any character with a level adjustment "monstrous"?), at least, although it doesn't specifically mention using the epic save/BAB progression. The "regardless of" line, however, suggests that the saves may not be progressed by level adjustment.

Spoiler: DMG

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MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

This explicitly tells us that level adjustment DOES count towards qualifying to use the epic attack and save bonuses for "monsters"...

Spoiler: Simple RAW Question and Answer

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Q854

When is a character considered "epic-level"? I've seen a lot of conflicting information on how it functions with regard to ECL. Some say the character is not epic for any purposes until they have 21 HD; some say you are eligible for epic feats upon reaching ECL 21, but do not use the epic-level BAB/save progression, relying instead on your class's BAB and save progression until you reach 21 HD. Others say it's just the opposite, where you begin using epic progression upon reaching ECL 21, but don't qualify for epic feats until reaching 21 HD. From what I've seen in my research, it seems like folks were citing contradictory rule books (ELH vs MM vs DMG), but I'm not sure that anyone in the threads actually conceded being incorrect, so as someone parsing the old debates, I'm left a little unsure.

A854

The Epic Level Handbook states an epic character is someone with a character level of 21 or higher. It doesn't mention ECL, only character level. The argument usually revolves around adapting monsters, but for PCs you don't take the LA into consideration. This means that, as an example, if you have +2 LA, you need to get to ECL 23 using epic XP tables for lv 21 and 22 until you're actually considered Epic. You can't take epic feats before that point.

From what I gather here, the ELH suggests that player characters should use their character level to determine when they become eligible to select epic feats and start using the epic BAB/saves progression, but the rules may be different for monsters. How will our villains be treated for the purposes of ECL 21+ levels? I only have one in the build I'm using, but I don't want to be dinged for going with the inapplicable interpretation.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the way we handle [Epic] here is that you count as [Epic] once you reach 21HD (and can thus take [Epic] feats), but don't start using the epic saving throws and attack bonus progression until you reach your 21st class level. Level Adjustment and ECL don't factor into the equation at all.

[Thurbane]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the way we handle [Epic] here is that you count as [Epic] once you reach 21HD (and can thus take [Epic] feats), but don't start using the epic saving throws and attack bonus progression until you reach your 21st class level. Level Adjustment and ECL don't factor into the equation at all.

That's my understanding of how it works for this comp, yes.

[GrayDeath]

Mine as well.

And I have both built entries using that rules and judged entries using that interpretation before.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well...I submitted something.

[Doctor Despair]

Well...I submitted something.

The less substantial the submission, the more points you get for being insubstantial; it is the incorporeal competition, after all, right?

[Falontani]

omg, thank you for the reminder! completely forgot that I was building something, glad I have 10 days left

[Thurbane]

Got a fair chunk of my entry done, but things have slowed down. Still, should be able to make deadline.

[Doctor Despair]

As I'm cresting the character limit, I was wondering -- is it in bad taste for an entry to be longer than one post?

[Thurbane]

As I'm cresting the character limit, I was wondering -- is it in bad taste for an entry to be longer than one post?

No, that should be fine. I've done entries before that span two messages. They usually can be combined to one forum post, as the post limit is larger than the message limit.

[jdizzlean]

As I'm cresting the character limit, I was wondering -- is it in bad taste for an entry to be longer than one post?

iircc, the longest entry in my experience, required 7 pm's to get it all in...


just make sure you send them with the proper formatting if its more than one pm, or requires more than one post from me. I'm just going to copy/paste your pm, and if the formatting is screwed up between posts/pastes, that's on you :)

[Doctor Despair]

iircc, the longest entry in my experience, required 7 pm's to get it all in...


just make sure you send them with the proper formatting if its more than one pm, or requires more than one post from me. I'm just going to copy/paste your pm, and if the formatting is screwed up between posts/pastes, that's on you :)

Well it wasn't 7, but it's in! Hopefully the formatting works out; the preview showed it working in PMs, so hopefully it works in the larger post

[jdizzlean]

getting down to the wire, how're folks doing?

[Doctor Despair]

getting down to the wire, how're folks doing?

I know you're probably asking for updates for folks who haven't submitted yet, but I'm a little nervous! Hoping the tone of the build goes over well!