Subtle dig at godless clerics

[gooddragon1]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I feel like there's a subtle dig at godless clerics in #995 (clerics who just pick the two strongest domains they want and don't have a deity). But then, if it is there, the story had to be written to make them vulnerable and a spellcaster who is thinking with their spell slots is not playing optimally (which, to get to level 20 (or even high levels), is really the most likely scenario). Also, sometimes people have real world reasons for not wanting to choose a deity. So there's my two meseta though I admit I could be reading too much into it.

[Goosefarble]

I think you probably are reading too much into it. Given Rich's recent topics-to-tackle, jabbing at people who don't want to follow a god is probably not... enormously high on his list of priorities.

[Keltest]

It would not surprise me if there was an in-universe reason for godless clerics to be looked down upon. However, given what we know of the history of the stickverse and the origin of clerics, it may not be entirely nonsensical. A cleric without a god is like a knight without a lord, and it raises some rather interesting questions about the nature of that particular cleric.

[gooddragon1]

I think you probably are reading too much into it. Given Rich's recent topics-to-tackle, jabbing at people who don't want to follow a god is probably not... enormously high on his list of priorities.

I think it's more, jabbing at high tier characters and optimized gameplay. Clerics picking their domains rather than associating with a deity might be considered power-gamey.

Potential Evidence:
*A sorcerer beating a wizard.
*A multiclass non-primary caster beating a vampire full caster (heavily due to circumstances).
*A fighter even standing a chance against a full caster lich.
*The conversation near the cake in Tarquinland about tier envy.
*The godless cleric losing to a nongodless cleric so quickly because they "think with their spell slots"
*A wizard losing to a ranger because they hadn't prepared for it (which makes me question Int being their primary casting stat)
*The fighter beating the half ogre spiked chain user because of a cliff.

It's plausible in a story written for it, but the mechanics of wisdom and intelligence being known for experience and planning respectively and being required for higher spell slots indicate that a caster of that level really shouldn't be unprepared. One of the order of the stick told the bandits they encountered to retire because they'd eventually face an encounter they couldn't withstand. So unless the casters are just written as being that powerful, they don't have much of an excuse to not have contingencies as mentioned in the linked post in my OP. Maybe I'm just being grumpy because I don't like playing clerics of a deity :/

[Kish]

That is a truly spectacular stretch.

I defy you to point to anywhere in the comic where Rich has indicated either a positive or negative view of optimization without it being a pure joke.

In fact, I defy you to find an epic-level character who has been alive or undead in the timeline of the comic* who doesn't show signs of being horrifically unoptimized, by the standards of things like that link you posted.

*To be more explicit: The Order of the Scribble are in, the Vector Legion are in, Xykon is in, Spliced-Vaarsuvius' components are out. Haerta and Ganonron may have been the greatest optimizers imaginable until they died; it doesn't matter to the comic.

Edited: Ah, you made exactly what you were distressed about explicit even as I was responding to the implication.

To which I say...yep. If you want a comic all about how much better optimizing out the wazoo is than things like choosing a god to worship based on which god suits your character's personality, you have been reading the wrong comic. This is what Rich says to that kind of objection.

[gooddragon1]

That is a truly spectacular stretch.

I defy you to point to anywhere in the comic where Rich has indicated either a positive or negative view of optimization without it being a pure joke.

In fact, I defy you to find an epic-level character who has been alive or undead in the timeline of the comic* who doesn't show signs of being horrifically unoptimized, by the standards of things like that link you posted.

*To be more explicit: The Order of the Scribble are in, the Vector Legion are in, Xykon is in, Spliced-Vaarsuvius' components are out. Haerta and Ganonron may have been the greatest optimizers imaginable until they died; it doesn't matter to the comic.

Very good qualifier of pure joke. It's impossible for me to prove authorial intent. But the closest you might get is here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html
"I thought I smelled cheese nearby" - Roy, panel 2

[Kish]

That strip exists for a joke. Not only that, it's a joke at the expense of the "optimizer" in question. You do see that, right? That if that strip was removed from the continuity entirely, the only change would be one less joke--a joke which isn't kind to spiked chain half-ogre optimizers?

(Check my prior post, btw; I edited it while you were posting.)

[Porthos]

Showing that godless clerics get discriminated in OotSWorld by some is a dig against them?

...

OK, then.

[Peelee]

I think it's more, jabbing at high tier characters and optimized gameplay. Clerics picking their domains rather than associating with a deity might be considered power-gamey.

Potential Evidence:
*A sorcerer beating a wizard.
*A multiclass non-primary caster beating a vampire full caster (heavily due to circumstances).
*A fighter even standing a chance against a full caster lich.
*The conversation near the cake in Tarquinland about tier envy.
*The godless cleric losing to a nongodless cleric so quickly because they "think with their spell slots"
*A wizard losing to a ranger because they hadn't prepared for it (which makes me question Int being their primary casting stat)
*The fighter beating the half ogre spiked chain user because of a cliff.

It's plausible in a story written for it, but the mechanics of wisdom and intelligence being known for experience and planning respectively and being required for higher spell slots indicate that a caster of that level really shouldn't be unprepared. One of the order of the stick told the bandits they encountered to retire because they'd eventually face an encounter they couldn't withstand. So unless the casters are just written as being that powerful, they don't have much of an excuse to not have contingencies as mentioned in the linked post in my OP. Maybe I'm just being grumpy because I don't like playing clerics of a deity :/

Are you thus suggesting the only enemies that should be defeated are those that are obviously able to be defeated?

[Jasdoif]

I don't find it surprising that the Godsmoot, an event which appears to be organized by deific clerics for deific clerics, would treat nondeific clerics as less important to the event.

[NerdyKris]

I think it's a stretch to call this discrimination anyways. This is a meeting by representatives of the gods. Non theistic clerics don't have a god to represent, so they are left out, as are any gods without clerics. That's completely reasonable. The non theistic clerics think they should still be involved in whatever these meetings cover, which is also a reasonable sounding request.

The fact that his sect is there moderating it, and creating the meeting place through hard work, implies that there isn't ill will between them, just a difference of opinion. The conversation seemed to be there to establish that

• There are "rules" which prevent transgressions, but don't apply to Gontor, so we know Durkon can't attack the clerics in attendance.
• Being non theistic, he doesn't have a god that will step in and take offense at Hel's cleric attacking him.
• That he is out of spells
• A plot reason for him to be alone with Durkon

[Kish]

Are you thus suggesting the only enemies that should be defeated are those that are obviously able to be defeated?

If I understand the other dragon correctly, they would be okay with it if the High Priest of Hel had said something like, "No god? A superb tactical choice, but you're still not ready for this." They're distressed that something they view as an ideal optimization choice--being a deityless cleric--is functioning as a weakness rather than being highlighted as What Any Smart Cleric Would Do.

[BannedInSchool]

I don't find it surprising that the Godsmoot, an event which appears to be organized by deific clerics for deific clerics, would treat nondeific clerics as less important to the event.

It's not the Godless Brunchmeet afterall.

[gooddragon1]

I don't find it surprising that the Godsmoot, an event which appears to be organized by deific clerics for deific clerics, would treat nondeific clerics as less important to the event.

And that is not at all what I meant. I meant that part of the story seems to be constructed as a "you don't have a god at your back and optimizers who do this can now see the folly of it." Maybe I'm reaching. Maybe not.

I think I'm beginning to appreciate the situations of former posters who went against the grain. Maybe not their viewpoints, but some of their reactions feel less surprising.

[Jasdoif]

And that is not at all what I meant. I meant that part of the story seems to be constructed as a "you don't have a god at your back and optimizers who do this can now see the folly of it." Maybe I'm reaching. Maybe not.

Given the Giant's expressed views on the unimportance of game decisions in the story, I doubt optimization (or the lack thereof, for that matter) would be deliberate target for a subtle dig.

It seems far more likely to me that Gontor being a nondeific cleric is only relevant because that means there's no deity, or high priest thereof, with standing to object within the formal rules of the Godsmoot...because those formal rules are almost certainly the result of the Godsmoot being organized by/for the deific clerics.

[Reddish Mage]

Given the Giant's expressed views on the unimportance of game decisions in the story, I doubt optimization (or the lack thereof, for that matter) would be deliberate target for a subtle dig.

It seems far more likely to me that Gontor being a nondeific cleric is only relevant because that means there's no deity, or high priest thereof, with standing to object within the formal rules of the Godsmoot...because those formal rules are almost certainly the result of the Godsmoot being organized by/for the deific clerics.

I think the deity comment has nothing to do with the rules of the Godsmoot per se or meant as a dig. It is a straightforward tactical assessment. A deity could see what's happening to the cleric and intervene. We already have seen Thor throw lightning bolts at Durkula.

That's it, nothing more nothing less.

[blunk]

Eh, well, it's usually not polite to point out another's weakness(es) without a good reason, especially if you don't share that weakness, so the High Priest's comment looks generally disrespectful. But he's a jerk, the kind of person who would equate weakness with inferiority... so maybe *he* has a problem with godless clerics, but it doesn't mean the world does.

[Darth Paul]

Someone in the comment thread pointed out that Gontor's not having a deity means no other god will object to Hel taking his soul, even though he died in combat- honorably by dwarf standards. That's not really much of a dig, I don't think- more of an "unanticipated job hazard". HPoH was actually pointing out why Gontor was a good tactical choice of targets.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the dig. It's just for the sake of the story.

[Fish]

No, no, no, no. You're looking at this all wrong.

The Godsmoot doesn't allow non-theistic clerics in, because otherwise Banjo the Clown's high priest would have been invited. Elan said in strip #80, "Technically, you can be a cleric of a 'cause.'"

[The Giant]

And that is not at all what I meant. I meant that part of the story seems to be constructed as a "you don't have a god at your back and optimizers who do this can now see the folly of it." Maybe I'm reaching. Maybe not.

You are reaching.

First, I had no idea that choosing a deity or not was even an optimization issue. This is a thing people worry about? News to me.

Second, these days I spend exactly zero percent of my time thinking about stuff like how to dictate to people how they should play a game that stopped being published seven years ago. Maybe, if I think I can squeeze a joke out of it, I can peer back through the mists of time and try to remember how people used to play 3.5 back when I played it and think of something funny, once in a while. But as a serious theme in a humor-free page? Who cares that much? Play the game however you want to play it. There is more important thematic ground in this world for me to cover than whether or not people powergame.

I just don't care that much anymore about how people play games in their own living room; I'm not sure I ever did except as either a gag or a riposte to folks complaining about my writing because I let the fighter win sometimes.

Gontor is a non-theistic cleric because I needed him to be a non-theistic cleric for the plot to unfold correctly. That's it.

[LuisDantas]

I would file this one, like so many others, under "consequences of the vagueness of the concept of deity", with a pinch of the limitations of D&D concepts for flavor.

The Creed is described by Wrecan as "worshippers of "Elemental Earth itself". It has access to what sure looks like regular cleric (or perhaps more likely druid) spell slots that are renewed daily. In a D&D world that is called magic; in ours, it would be literal, repeated, consistent summoning of miracles. That is more communion with deity than most fervent theists hope to meet in life in our world.

We might hypothesize that perhaps they are arcane casters as opposed to divine casters, but then we would have to think of a reason why the moot would prefer to have arcane casters involved in what is otherwise an exclusive meeting of selected divine casters. And also why arcane casters would associate in a group that calls itself a Creed and that Gorton describes as a non-theistic religion.

Assuming neither Wrecan nor Gontor is mistaken or lying (and they probably are not), that indicates simply that in the OOtS-verse people are far more relaxed about conceptions of deity than in ours, to the point that even divine casters don't necessarily use any. It also strongly hints that the Creed is composed of some or all of those Druids that Veldrina expected to be present at the moot - as befits a group that is expected to have powerful Earth spells and the ability to fulfill a role of neutrality in the proceedings.

I suppose that is to be expected, in a world where people do not wonder whether there is a God but rather when their favorite cleric will be granted resurrection powers by his deity of choice. If the real world is any indication, there may well be at least a few clerics wondering how come a divine caster would even consider not being a theist.

Oh, and it also lampshades that under the Rules As Written D&D 3.x Druids do not have to be theists, despite being technically divine casters.

[eggynack]

First, I had no idea that choosing a deity or not was even an optimization issue. This is a thing people worry about? News to me.

Oh gods yes. If there's a thing that can make any sort of difference from a mechanical perspective, then it's an optimization issue that people worry about. I actually tend to prefer the really fiddly and micro stuff like that, actually, as opposed to the really high end absurdity. Never thought for a second that that was a thing you were referencing though. By my reckoning, it'd be like making a veiled reference to a semi-obscure ACF which is a bit on the overpowered side (I dunno, spontaneous divination or half-orc druid substitution levels). They're just not things that come up at the level at which you seem to understand the game, which seems to be working well enough.

[Keltest]

Gontor is a non-theistic cleric because I needed him to be a non-theistic cleric for the plot to unfold correctly. That's it.

Does that mean we will see more of the implications of that in future comics, or have we pretty much hit the limit with "The HPoH wont get in too much trouble for going after him."?

[The Giant]

Does that mean we will see more of the implications of that in future comics, or have we pretty much hit the limit with "The HPoH wont get in too much trouble for going after him."?

Considering his career as a non-theistic cleric has just come to a rather abrupt end, I struggle to imagine what implications you'd expect to see in future comics.

[Keltest]

Considering his career as a non-theistic cleric has just come to a rather abrupt end, I struggle to imagine what implications you'd expect to see in future comics.

That is an excellent point which means I should probably reconsider posting at 5 AM when im not even awake. How do you do it?

[The Giant]

That is an excellent point which means I should probably reconsider posting at 5 AM when im not even awake. How do you do it?

I got up at 2 in the afternoon.

[Crusher]

I got up at 2 in the afternoon.

An underappreciated professional perk.

[Kish]

Oh, and it also lampshades that under the Rules As Written D&D 3.x Druids do not have to be theists, despite being technically divine casters.

Neither do clerics. (Or rangers or paladins.)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't know why so many are saying it's optimized for high levels to have no cleric. If anything, it's the opposite. Any two non-conflicting domains of your choice is good at low levels. At high levels when you're directly interacting with your deity, having one to actually watch your back is really useful. And picking a deity *and* getting two awesome domains isn't that hard. Lots of deities with Travel have at least one other great choice in their list.

[NerdyKris]

Durkon's not talking about that, though. We clearly see multiple high level clerics, including two high priests, get killed without intervention from their patrons.

In this strip, Durkon was referring to the specific situation that the rules of the godsmoot don't apply to Gontor. In that whatever magical or non magical rules prevent clerics from fighting won't apply to him, and that even if someone found their way around those rules, the other gods would step in and object to the offending cleric's god personally, which won't happen with Gontor. He isn't saying anything about a general situation. It's only this exact scenario, to explain why it's possible for him to kill Gontor and not other clerics at the godsmoot.