MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Squire Doodad]

If you want to gender the words, remember that every word in Spanish has a gender, including the articles. It should be "female la Coca."

There are exceptions though- all giraffes have a feminine article, for example, meaning that it could just be "el Coco" regardless of the gender unless there is a female form that exists. This also may well not be the case, but my point is that every language is largely built on the exceptions of rules.

[Darth Paul]

every language is largely built on the exceptions of rules.

What about "I before E except after C"?

[Qwertystop]

What about "I before E except after C"?

More exceptions than matches.

[Aspheric]

English is terrible at following its own rules, isn't it?

[Darth Paul]

Rules are made to be broken.

[Qwertystop]

Language rules are written long after they're established, and anyone who thinks they'll hold is kidding themselves. Languages are written by their speakers.

[Crusher]

I think all the votes and changes are included (and Darth Paul has now moved into first place for most times changing vote). If I missed yours, please let me know.

I’ll retabulate the leaders again in a few weeks.

[Kastor]

It's been a while since I've been on this thread. I'd like to formally cast my vote for Protean please!

[Keltest]

English is terrible at following its own rules, isn't it?

I think it was Grey Wolf who said that English rules were so badly written that its basically impossible to speak it wrong.

[Darth Paul]

I think all the votes and changes are included (and Darth Paul has now moved into first place for most times changing vote).

[3Power]

Waiting for a Team Evil appearance, we can settle for the little clues we have.

I'm still trying to understand the art of the Escape scene (the glowing eyes). That's not how magic usually works and Laurin's psionics didn't really work that way either.

#1160 has:
- a spell-like ability cast without speaking its name (no eyes, so neither glow nor no-glow);
- Roy's eyes glowing when using his sword's powers;
- Durkon's eyes not glowing when using the returning property of his hammer.

Do the powers of an ancestral weapon come from the bearer rather than the weapon? Would Durkon's eyes not glow because he's using his weapon's magic while Roy's eyes do because the magic he uses comes from him (and is channeled in some way through the weapon)?

The color of the eyes and the glowing when using magic seems somewhat inconsistent to me and I can't really see a pattern there. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and this is just some artistic glitter ink on some magic effects thrown in for awesomeness sake.

FWIW, V's eyes glow on several occassions, especially when angry, like when he threatened Elan on the boat, or in this comic that I just found by chance.

[Quebbster]

More exceptions than matches.

Indeed.

[Jineon]

FWIW, V's eyes glow on several occassions, especially when angry, like when he threatened Elan on the boat, or in this [Jineon's note : link cut - less than 10 posts] comic that I just found by chance.

Indeed. There is very little consistency in the way glowing eyes are drawn. Miko's eyes glow blue in #281 but are still black in the same circumstances (Detect Evil stopped by a lead sheet) in #208. It could be emotion based but Miko seems to have cooled down a bit in #281 so I'm not sure I'd want to consider it's that.

So much for this idea, I guess. Thanks for pointing out these occurences.

[Squire Doodad]

Indeed. There is very little consistency in the way glowing eyes are drawn. Miko's eyes glow blue in #281 but are still black in the same circumstances (Detect Evil stopped by a lead sheet) in #208. It could be emotion based but Miko seems to have cooled down a bit in #281 so I'm not sure I'd want to consider it's that.

So much for this idea, I guess. Thanks for pointing out these occurences.

For spellcasters, its less a matter of "eyes will glow under this circumstance" and more of a "these circumstances may cause eyes to glow".

[Aspheric]

I think it was Grey Wolf who said that English rules were so badly written that its basically impossible to speak it wrong.

Sounds about right!

For spellcasters, its less a matter of "eyes will glow under this circumstance" and more of a "these circumstances may cause eyes to glow".

As the one who brought up the glowing eyes thing, my point was more that they seemed to indicate that MitD (and possibly but not necessarily anyone else) used some kind of magical ability. It's probably worth noting that the comic's art style has changed, but characters who use spells or replicate spells through other effects still give some sort of visual indication that they're using some kind of magic. The distinct glow of MitD's eyes in the Escape scene suggests he's using magic explicitly, since we wouldn't be able to see any colourful aura surrounding his limbs, as with V, Durkon, or any other spellcaster in the story. Or, at least, I believe that to be the case. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that we don't know exactly what spell/ability MitD used...

Regarding the Escape, something that I've been thinking about recently is how I'm not sure it can be the Protean. Its explanation obviously has the problems of being extremely coincidental, which I suppose is fine, but that seems to conflict with this quote from Rich, as swiped from the first post:

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Would the MitD really have discovered a power "he didn't know he had," if as a Protean, he just happened to have it in that moment? The phrasing here suggests that he had the capacity to "escape" O-Chul all along, at any point until Xykon was about to kill him, and tapped into this power when he became desperate. That doesn't really make sense as far as the Hegunemnon is concerned, as it requires a coincidental shifting to have the right ability for the scene. Now, I realize this could be reading too much into Rich's quote, but I'm not sure why he would phrase the above comment as he did if he knew that the Protean wouldn't otherwise have the power to make the Escape work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would the MitD really have discovered a power "he didn't know he had," if as a Protean, he just happened to have it in that moment?

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

Grey Wolf

It could, of course, be that he literally didn't know he was in a form that let him use the relevant power (or that he can use the powers of the creatures he morphs into) but the Alter Shape thing works too. Basically, is a weird one for the Protean but doesn't really hamper it much at all.

[Keltest]

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

Grey Wolf

Isnt that mutually exclusive with the idea that he's deliberately holding a specific shape or partial shape out of politeness or whatever?

[Peelee]

Isnt that mutually exclusive with the idea that he's deliberately holding a specific shape or partial shape out of politeness or whatever?

Regardless, it fits perfectly fine with the Peeleean Protean Theory.

[Squire Doodad]

Regardless, it fits perfectly fine with the Peeleean Protean Theory.

Is that the Italian Protean one, or the Norwegian one?

[lio45]

I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

Spoiler: Reasoning

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Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.

I support the vote for the Challenge Rating change

Would it help if I volunteer to track the votes? I do feel guilty about putting another vote on Grey Wolf so soon.

I agree 100% with Kish's reasoning, do support the vote (with Rob Redblade, that makes two of us), and will yet again point out that there's zero reason we have to use a ridiculous, cumbersome, misapplied, and needlessly "exhausting" for the curator (his own word) system in order to run it.

How about a simple binary choice between

"YES, I would like to raise the CR requirement to 18."
"NO, I would like that requirement to stay where it is."

It would be pretty easy to run. Could even be run publicly, if we ask people to just include their binary vote as part of whatever ongoing discussion is taking place (put them in bold or in color, if you want to be sure).

I'd volunteer to compile these votes, if Kish doesn't.

Oh and BTW, I would vote YES <---- this is how people can vote while posting; pretty seamless no?

[Peelee]

I
It would be pretty easy to run. Could even be run publicly, if we ask people to just include their binary vote as part of whatever ongoing discussion is taking place (put them in bold or in color, if you want to be sure).

I'd volunteer to compile these votes, if Kish doesn't.

Oh and BTW, I would vote YES <---- this is how people can vote while posting; pretty seamless no?

Unless one has nothing to post other than a vote, which I susoect would be the case for a significant percentage, which gets us right back to the reason GW does the quasi-public vote.

[thelivingmonkey]

I agree 100% with Kish's reasoning, do support the vote (with Rob Redblade, that makes two of us), and will yet again point out that there's zero reason we have to use a ridiculous, cumbersome, misapplied, and needlessly "exhausting" for the curator (his own word) system in order to run it.

How about a simple binary choice between

"YES, I would like to raise the CR requirement to 18."
"NO, I would like that requirement to stay where it is."

It would be pretty easy to run. Could even be run publicly, if we ask people to just include their binary vote as part of whatever ongoing discussion is taking place (put them in bold or in color, if you want to be sure).

I'd volunteer to compile these votes, if Kish doesn't.

Oh and BTW, I would vote YES <---- this is how people can vote while posting; pretty seamless no?

I don't know what makes you think seconding the call for a vote at this time is a wise decision, after so many people have voiced their opinion that we shouldn't have a vote.

There is such a small chance that a vote for ANY change will pass right now. If there is a vote, my vote is for no change and yes, don't worry, I'll DM GW ASAP.

EDIT: Or I guess ASAN (As Soon As Needed)

[Darth Paul]

Isnt that mutually exclusive with the idea that he's deliberately holding a specific shape or partial shape out of politeness or whatever?

Holding a specific shape (or partial shape), rather than letting himself coalesce into a constant boiling mass of protoplasmic flesh

Spoiler

Show

(I just came up with that phrase, I think, unless I read it somewhere, but either way I really like the way it rolls off the keyboard)

is different from specifically changing into the shape of a creature with the extraordinary powers he needs at a critical moment. I think the "discovery of his powers" would be that he can choose a specific creature, not just freeze himself into a shape which doesn't represent any specific creature at all.

[Squire Doodad]

Holding a specific shape (or partial shape), rather than letting himself coalesce into a constant boiling mass of protoplasmic flesh

Spoiler

Show

(I just came up with that phrase, I think, unless I read it somewhere, but either way I really like the way it rolls off the keyboard)

is different from specifically changing into the shape of a creature with the extraordinary powers he needs at a critical moment. I think the "discovery of his powers" would be that he can choose a specific creature, not just freeze himself into a shape which doesn't represent any specific creature at all.

That is a real word, but it doesn't quite mean that. Close but not exactly.

In other news: Yeah, pretty much. For all we know, a Protean MitD hadn't assumed a specific form- he had stopped in whatever mode he was at, in between or not.

[lio45]

I don't know what makes you think seconding the call for a vote at this time is a wise decision

The fact that I've personally found the CR requirements to be unacceptably low for about a decade now. I'm always going to be in favor of raising them, and if I happen to be around whenever someone has the good sense of suggesting that particular change, I'll always give them my support and my vote.

Plus, I've been arguing for a while that there's no fundamental reason why running a vote should be "exhausting" on the curator, so, to be coherent with my position, I'm not treating this community having a vote (on a binary matter) as a huge deal that requires lots of work.

As for Peelee's point, I don't necessarily disagree; it could be via PMs as well. However, I happen to think it would probably be okay even if done in the thread. But even via PMs, it's easily compiled, especially if we ask voters to just use the PM Subject for their "yes" or "no".

[Aspheric]

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

I think the "discovery of his powers" would be that he can choose a specific creature, not just freeze himself into a shape which doesn't represent any specific creature at all.

I suppose this suffices as a technical explanation, but I don't know. Wouldn't he still need to know the creature he's transforming into for the Protean's Alter Shape to satisfy the Escape? I don't know if that is knowledge MitD possesses, since he doesn't seem to know what he is himself, though I guess that's too subjective to judge either way.

I don't have opinions on the Protean either way, though I'd be surprised if MitD revealed himself to be the shifting mass of flesh that is the Hagunemnon, since I've been reading the descriptions of his capabilities (i.e. the stomp, swallowing Redcloak whole) as suggestive of appendages that aren't constantly changing. That's my personal read, though, and I admit it would be kind of amusing for RC to betray Xykon, and MitD having an, "ugh, hold on, one second," moment as he morphs back into having a mouth to satisfy Xykon's command for him.

Unrelated: I looked back at the SRD page for the Hagunemnon and noticed it has "immunities," though the page doesn't articulate what they're actually immune to. Does anyone know what it's immunities actually are? I'm curious!

There is such a small chance that a vote for ANY change will pass right now.

It's also not great to have voting periods follow one another so closely, especially when the last one was against making any changes. I think it'd be better to wait, especially since the last one was so contentious.

[Darth Paul]

My theory (unless it's better phrased as an hypothesis) goes something like this:

The Monster has been hanging around Team Evil, specifically Redcloak, the knowledge guy, for years. MitD has this Detect Thoughts power (assuming he is a Protean). He doesn't really have much to do, because they don't trust him to do much, but sometimes, he reads thoughts. It's a power he's not really aware of having because he's always had it. So, without fully realizing it, he's picked up a lot of Redcloak's knowledge.

Now comes the time when he needs to find the power to help O-Chul Escape. Where should O-Chul Escape to? In V's mind, MitD can see an Azurite settlement. O-Chul's other friends! Cool! How will he Escape? If only there were some creature MitD could turn into that had the ability to teleport everybody to that place! Well... Redcloak was thinking about psionic powers just the other day, and he was reading about a creature that has the psionic ability to teleport... so... try really hard... and.... change...

Is it a huge stretch? Perhaps. Does it make a sort of sense? Perhaps.

EDIT: I see the SRD lists a +47 Intimidate skill. Would that account for the instance of shouting at Haley and Belkar, rather than a Shout spell of some kind? Even at a lower level of skill due to his youth?

[Mightymosy]

There's another thing:

I just read that the Protean can only copy extraordinal abilities, but not spell like ones.
What is Wish?
Or "Teleport others"?

[Keltest]

There's another thing:

I just read that the Protean can only copy extraordinal abilities, but not spell like ones.
What is Wish?
Or "Teleport others"?

Depends on the monster. Different monsters cast different effects as different types. Part of the challenge with the Protean has been finding monsters with extraordinary abilities to do what we need it to do.