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2019-08-20, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
With the way Hel was looking in the middle of this strip, I was expecting her to be dead by the end of it.
Also, is this the first time a divine being has referred to the Snarl by name? I recall them all pointedly avoiding that during the godsmoot.(This signature intentionally left blank)
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2019-08-20, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
it still might not be too long by God standards. realistically, they just need to keep this world going long enough for the Dark One to gain enough power to survive until the next world. After that, they can start a slow, peaceful apocalypse where no new life is born and everyone slowly ages out without suffering. then they can take apart the world quietly and make a new one with more permanent locks.Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2019-08-20 at 09:55 AM.
Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2019-08-20, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
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2019-08-20, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
"If it lives it can be killed.
If it is dead it can be eaten."
Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
(Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")
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2019-08-20, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
If hel plays her cards right, she could still come out better than she came in with this, even if this world keeps existing forever. She's so messed up because she doesn't get any worship, but now she has a High priest, who can make more clerics just by biting regular clerics. She would have been better served by Durkon* or his second in command, who were much higher lvl, but still.
As long as she doesn't get dusted, Curly can still create an actual cult of undead worshippers of Hel.
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2019-08-20, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Depends on what level the Clerics start at I guess, but you get Cure Disease pretty early. ALOT earlier than you get the ability to absorb fire Damage.
When your world gets nuked every thousand years, it's rather difficult to have a "forgotten Golden Age".
The generic Monsters already have Fenrir, and most of the cool monsters have their own custom God/dess."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-08-20, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
I wonder the same thing since Thor explained that.
Maybe she wouldn't be the only one at risk if the Snarl happens to destroy all living souls. Some other gods may be low on souls.
Loki really did something wicked to his own blood with this wager.
Also, "interregnum", interesting choice of words. A reader of Mr. Brust work maybe? :)Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2019-08-20, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Second this. Loki is realizing that what was intended as a single-world prank/lesson is going to harm his daughter permanently, he rues it, and he can't even blame her for her anger at that level.
Though I suspect that's it's also true that she could concede the bet and end it. Her saying that it's for the duration of this world is her perspective where she won't give up, and she also expects the world to end soon.
I expect this conversation will have huge plot impact going forward.
Great storytelling as always.
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2019-08-20, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
The habit of calming down (or trying to) by giving shingles is already shown here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html
Also, Hel is indeed wasting away by lack of souls. If the gods can indeed patch this world, it will only prolong Hel's suffering and might be her downfall in the end. That prospect is probably saddening for Loki who probably didn't anticipate that this world would have a chance to survive long enough to deplete Hel.
edit: reading the thread, this idea is ninja'd big time. oh well..Last edited by Garwain; 2019-08-20 at 10:07 AM.
My personal folder is a graveyard of ideas, stuck in their dream phase.The "DM won't kill us" attitude is a bubble that sometimes needs to be bursted.Avatar courtesy of Linklele
There's an armor variant rule in UA that will drastically increase character survivability without completely bubble-wrapping them in plot invulnerabilityThrophies won:Spoiler
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2019-08-20, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2019-08-20, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-08-20, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
True, but I don't think there's anything stopping
someonea mortal born under the aegis of Pantheon A converting to the worship of a deity of Pantheon B. If a god specifically for <type-of-monster> arises, I can definitely see their Clerics extolling that more specific interest as a selling point.Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2019-08-20 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Clarification of that "someone" meant a mortal
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2019-08-20, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-08-20, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Hel’s face getting worked up does a great scary gaunt look, I’m impressed. I feel no sympathy for her, but I am a bit sad for the lost relationship with Loki, he really seemed like he was trying to get through to her in his way.
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2019-08-20, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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2019-08-20, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Hel looks tired, desperate, and unhappy. She needs an ally, but she’s burned all her bridges. That’s why I expect
Spoilerthe Dark One
to show up at the end of the book with an offer.
Also, Loki seems to have a lot on his mind. If the world is saved, his daughter will almost certainly die, trapped forever by the terms of the bet; if the world is destroyed, she might live, freed of the bet, but Loki may die. He might change his mind and turn to the Dark Side. I sense the conflict within him. Loki can destroy the world. I have foreseen it. It is his destiny.
Okay, maybe not, but we were bound to talk about Star Wars eventually. Loki might have enough sympathy to let her have a few souls worth of nourishment. Or make souls available. By betraying the dwarves, or something. You’ll have to draw your own parallel to Alderaan.Last edited by Fish; 2019-08-20 at 10:41 AM.
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2019-08-20, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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2019-08-20, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-08-20, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Was an end-condition ever established for the wager between Hel and Thor? As in, anything to determine who "wins" the wager?
If not... I just got an idea for a potential end to this thread. After the Order brings an end to things on the mortal side of things, Loki and Thor reappear before Hel to discuss the wager. Hel starts to go off on another tirade, but Thor interrupts her to say:
"You win."
He says that her gambit proved to her just how screwed he and the rest of the pantheon would have been if she'd pulled it off, and that there's no use in continuing the terms of the wager. The dwarven dead are no longer re-distributed over such arbitrary lines, and Hel can once again have clerics among the living.
Of course, she didn't really win - Loki convinced Thor to give her an "out" so the clearly-more-unfair-than-any-party-realized wager could officially be concluded.
Granted, the question then is whether Hel is able to accept the "win", or if she's too proud to take the out given to her...
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2019-08-20, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
I'm with the folks that think Hel threatening Loki is a big mistake on her part. After all, she just gave he dad some very good motivation to ensure that this iteration of the world endures as long as possible, if not indefinitely.
I will say in some respects that Loki's lesson has taught Hel a few things. Her predicament at this point is entirely due to her own shortsightedness, and at the very least she's learned the value of long-term planning. Her plan wasn't actually bad and she put a lot of forethought into it, as well as taking advantage of several opportunities that popped up, so she's clearly upped her game a little.
But on the flip side she's still hasn't completely learned her lesson, since the only reason the Order was able to stop her was because she overplayed her hand and gloated about her victory beforehand.
Part of me is wondering if there's some way out of Hel's current situation that she just hasn't considered. I doubt Loki wanted his daughter to literally fade from existence, and his comments about knowing when to quit could easily be seen as him telling her to just admit that she lost this wager, her dad was right and she's learned not to be so shortsighted. At that point, maybe something could be done to allow her worship so she doesn't fade from existence.
But again, threatening her dad disincentivizes him from giving her access to clerics again, so she might have just doomed herself. Her only shot at this point might be to link herself to the Frost Giant and get his worshipers to worship her as well.
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2019-08-20, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
What I mean is that there should be a ton of undead in the world - nobody seems that surprised at their presence (we even get "eyes of their wights" puns and similar.) And yeah, only a fraction of those will be intelligent. But it seems that relatively little of them pull for her, despite being their de facto patron in the north, and I don't really know why.
Yeah it does seem to be a bit of a crapsack loop.
She has a high priest now though (thanks to the "Frontarchy.") If she abandons this hail-mary scheme and simply builds her church up the regular way she might have a better chance, especially if the world doesn't end and she's forced to work with what she's got now.
More importantly though - if she truly does waste away, what then? "God of disease" doesn't seem like a position that can just go unfilled.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2019-08-20, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-08-20, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
If gods could change quiddities, there'd be some with of that. The fact that you don't have any strangely out-of-pantheon gods (like a western zodiac animal having the yellow aura of the norse northeners) strongly implies that you're stuck with the quiddity you were born with.
And while in theory nothing would stop a blue western god from hanging out with the yellow northeners, gods squabble. So long as it's just intra-pantheon squabbling, any resulting snarl-like manifestations are single color and easily dealt with. Inter-pantheon dealings are formal and removed because the risks are so high. If someone with a different color starts hanging out like they were family, they'll most likely start squabbling like family but the risks will be much worse.
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2019-08-20, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2019-08-20, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Well, this page shoots down my speculation that Loki would use this meeting to propose allowing the last vampire to form a temple in this world, although I suppose he could still do so later. On the other hand, the fact that the camera is away from the dwarves gives ample opportunity for Brightstone and Sigdi to explain what's going on to the council off-panel.
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2019-08-20, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
All the ones we saw were Southerners, and Ex-Paladins. Also I'm not sure if wights inherit classes, but I don't think they do.
So they wouldn't necessarily be overly religious anyway.
Maybe the Dwarves just don't get into Necromancy very much, and the good clerics burn the bodies whenever they aren't getting raised specifically to deny Hel. Come to think of it, with one of the only other known to be Evil Gods being "undead are icky" and the other one seeming to not care about spellcasting, it could be Hel is literally the only who would make Clerics to make Undead in the North. Which means it's up to the Arcane casters. And Although better than AD&D, Dwarves still aren't that into learning Arcane Magic.
Yeah it does seem to be a bit of a crapsack loop.
She has a high priest now though (thanks to the "Frontarchy.") If she abandons this hail-mary scheme and simply builds her church up the regular way she might have a better chance, especially if the world doesn't end and she's forced to work with what she's got now.
More importantly though - if she truly does waste away, what then? "God of disease" doesn't seem like a position that can just go unfilled.
I'm not sure if OOTS is working on similar logic or not, but it seemed like a reasonable starting place to me.
Maybe Loki would have to pop out another Kid to keep the Norse/North Mythos thing intact."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-08-20, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-20, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Sharper than a serpant's tooth is the tongue of an ungrateful child. On the other hand, CSN suggests teach your children well.
Loki has, by tricking his daughter, set up a bit of bad blood between them (though perhaps with an intent to teach her a lesson?) so he is reaping from the crop that he had sown.
Yeah, trash talking is usually a bad move unless one can back it up. Fair point, particularly in a D&D context. Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive ... Loki, a spider caught in a web of his own making.
That would be a cool reach back. Hope that's included.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-20 at 11:29 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-08-20, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-08-20, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"