Favorite Superhero system?

[curious-puzzle]

So one of the game ideas that I want to run or play in at one point is a superhero game with a vibe similar to the Worm web serial. What system would people recommend?

I had a Mutants&Masterminds book at one point a long time ago, but that's about the only superhero system I know of...

[Knaight]

Can you give a brief explanation of what the Worm web serial is like? With that description, I might be able to better point you towards Wild Talents, or ICON, or Necessary Evils, or something else a bit more specific than Mutants and Masterminds.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I've heard good things about Masks: A New Generation.

[Arbane]

Besides M&M, some superhero games I've played:
HERO System aka Champions is an oldie but goodie if you're not afraid of math. (It is rather bean-counting.)
Truth and Justice is a rules-light game. I've played it, it's pretty good.
FASERIP is a clone of the old Marvel Superheroes RPG, which was pretty fun back in the late 1980s. Fairly light rules compared to M&M.

[Mutazoia]

Besides M&M, some superhero games I've played:
HERO System aka Champions is an oldie but goodie if you're not afraid of math. (It is rather bean-counting.)
Truth and Justice is a rules-light game. I've played it, it's pretty good.
FASERIP is a clone of the old Marvel Superheroes RPG, which was pretty fun back in the late 1980s. Fairly light rules compared to M&M.

In addition to these (and the best option IMHO) is the DC Heroes (3rd edition) system. It's another point buy system but it's not as math heavy as HERO/Champions.

And then there is always GURPS Supers.

[Zavoniki]

I'm a big fan of Wild Talents. It doesn't handle all types of superhero games well, but no system does.


If you can handle the setting restrictions, Better Angels is one of the best RPGs ever made. And it is superhero based.

[curious-puzzle]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!

Can you give a brief explanation of what the Worm web serial is like? With that description, I might be able to better point you towards Wild Talents, or ICON, or Necessary Evils, or something else a bit more specific than Mutants and Masterminds.

It's a novel set in a pretty grim world full of superhumans of various persuasions and abilities (here's the dreaded TVtropes link). I'd guesstimate the power levels to be around...hmmm..probably the Spiderman comics? There's some crazy powers and abilities, but not as many cosmic/deific level individuals as DC or the stronger Marvel characters, for example. On a tangent, I'd highly recommend the read.

[Cealocanth]

I personally like the Super Powers Companion in Savage Worlds, but, as can be seen by this thread, there's a lot of options out there.

[Knaight]

It's a novel set in a pretty grim world full of superhumans of various persuasions and abilities (here's the dreaded TVtropes link). I'd guesstimate the power levels to be around...hmmm..probably the Spiderman comics? There's some crazy powers and abilities, but not as many cosmic/deific level individuals as DC or the stronger Marvel characters, for example. On a tangent, I'd highly recommend the read.

Wild Talents sounds like a good fit here, with the eCollapse expansion also being worth looking into.

[Max_Killjoy]

I always like HERO 4th or 5th for superhumans (that's where it works best), and the math isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

[comk59]

Well, me and my group have been testing Prowlers and Paragons and we've been really enjoying it so far, especially how it handles things like minions and opposed superpower skill checks. However, if you're going for a darker grittier feel, M&M might serve your purposes better.

I always like HERO 4th or 5th for superhumans (that's where it works best), and the math isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

Never actually played that system, but I've heard good things about it.

[Joe the Rat]

From what I've played:

DCH / Blood of Heroes / MEGS (Mayfair Exponential Gaming System) Is my go-to. Point buy, but straightforward, you can easily come up with a way to make most concepts work, and if you are keeping it Street, base points can give you a lot of options (particularly in the "One Power" concept). Subplots (personal drama) is baked into the system, and part of the reward system The tricky part is Hero Points. The system flies pretty well, but the mechanics expect that Hero Points will be spent - it's how you can push to work against the nominally unhittable/unbreakable. There's a fairly extensive online community, and a lovely fan database (writeups.org) of all sorts of characters. They'd recently added a power ranking label to characters, to help you pick the right weight class. Blood of Heroes gives you Antiheroic (and villainous) reward structures.

HERO/Champions (now up to 6th!) is mathy, but they table out the worst of the formulas. It is purely effects based - you don't buy a power, you buy what your power can do. Very scalable, but probably requires the most mechanical system mastery - on the part of the DM. It's fairly playable with a basic understanding and a Ref willing to teach. Phase-based combat is very wargamey, though. Adventure based reward, no morality assumed.

Marvel Superheroes / FASERIP / 4-Color / Zerfs - TSR's contribution to the field. Base system is random rolls, but I have seen point buy variants. It can be wild and swingy, you can be super squishy or nigh invulnerable, but the key advantage here is the "wtf" power system. There are a lot of published options for powers, but you see a lot of custom powers in official write-ups. Define a power, write up the fundamentals, assign a Rank, good to go. Starting powers can reflect powers (surprise!), specific power effects (turning into fire and throwing fireballs are two separate things), or gear, or Strange Esoteric Things You Can Do. Going from the One Power, many uses model, you can create Power Stunts - using a power to do something specific, including simulating another power to broaden your repertoire. Character growth (esp at above-normal levels) is slow. Skills (Talents, here) are the weakest element. Silver Age Morality is assumed, so you may need to rejigger rewards.

Palladium / Heroes Unlimited - The weirdest and wiggliest (and most out of print) option. Powers are very explicit, but the big ones are effectively power suites. Tries to assume more "real world" physics - growers and shrinkers do not by default have autoscaling equipment. This one is the hardest to do strange custom powers - or the easiest, if you find something close and "ape" it. Most use of skills, least use of stats. Pick your morals, rewards are for attempting (and succeeding) at tasks & challenges.

There are also M&M (3rd is easy to learn for d20 players), Aberrant (Storyteller Supers; see also Exalted), Villains and Vigilantes (Now funded! Play like Jeff Dee!), Superworld (Chaosium Supers. Runequest and Call of Cthulhu compatible!), and the generics (GURPS, Savage Worlds, FATE). I'm loving Savage Worlds all around, but I haven't tried their supers. FATE, particularly FATE Accelerated are super easy to do characters (Your power is an Aspect, and probably where your Stunts go), but is very narratively driven.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In addition to these (and the best option IMHO) is the DC Heroes (3rd edition) system. It's another point buy system but it's not as math heavy as HERO/Champions.

That's just Mutants and Masterminds 3e with official licensing. Which is to say "the best damn superhero system out there; possibly the best generic or d20 system as well."

• There's a limited list of effects, so you don't have to learn ten thousand powers
• The game flows very quickly and smoothly-- the rules are simple (even for grappling, always a test) and straightforward
• You can put the weirdest, most wildly different characters, even characters built to different levels of superpowered-ness, in the same party without issues
• The power creation rules are incredibly fun and flexible. You have a relatively short list of base Effects (Damage, Nullify, Move Object, etc) and a similar-length list of Modifiers (Ranged, Triggered, Increased Duration, etc), which you put together to create anything you can imagine.

It works for just about any type of game where you want cinematic action and characters with differing powersets. Most specifically, it plays out almost exactly like your standard Justice League Unlimited/Young Justice type superhero cartoon. And there's a SRD!

[Anonymouswizard]

That's just Mutants and Masterminds 3e with official licensing. Which is to say "the best damn superhero system out there; possibly the best generic or d20 system as well."

• There's a limited list of effects, so you don't have to learn ten thousand powers
• The game flows very quickly and smoothly-- the rules are simple (even for grappling, always a test) and straightforward
• You can put the weirdest, most wildly different characters, even characters built to different levels of superpowered-ness, in the same party without issues
• The power creation rules are incredibly fun and flexible. You have a relatively short list of base Effects (Damage, Nullify, Move Object, etc) and a similar-length list of Modifiers (Ranged, Triggered, Increased Duration, etc), which you put together to create anything you can imagine.

It works for just about any type of game where you want cinematic action and characters with differing powersets. Most specifically, it plays out almost exactly like your standard Justice League Unlimited/Young Justice type superhero cartoon. And there's a SRD!

Eh, I personally prefer Fate (here's the core rules SRD) with the Venture City book (here's the Venture City SRD). I mean M&M is great, but what Venture city gives me is:

• While there's a sample list of powers, it's relatively small, flexible, and encourages you to make your own. It's a bit more specific than in M&M, but not more limited as narrative fluff actually matters in Fate.
• The Fate system works smoothly assuming you don't try to go too detailed. Grappling someone would just be 'create an advantage and they won't be able to move out of this zone'.
• You can have literally any superpower you dream of, and as they essentially work on the same 'base ability then stunts to improve' model they are still relatively balanced.
• I do not have to create a combat character. Sure, I can still be a Brick if I want to, but if I want to be someone who's supernaturally good with machines, there's an example power for that. Heck, 4 of the example powersets don't include a single combat power.
• Collateral Damage Effects are just cool, they give the idea that characters are probably holding back and can amp their powers up to a higher level if willing to harm things that aren't immune to them. These can range from sudden area attacks to more fun ones like the Insect (who can leap out of the way of any attack, which hits the floor), or the various fun ways moving anywhere in the city damages it.

Now this isn't to say that M&M is bad, or that descriptors in it don't matter, I've enjoyed the game, it just doesn't feel as nice to me as Venture City does.

[Beleriphon]

Now this isn't to say that M&M is bad, or that descriptors in it don't matter, I've enjoyed the game, it just doesn't feel as nice to me as Venture City does.

The big difference is that FATE tries to emulate the story beats of a superhero comics. M&M tends more towards a superhero character simulator rather than a superhero story simulator.

[Milo v3]

• You can have literally any superpower you dream of, and as they essentially work on the same 'base ability then stunts to improve' model they are still relatively balanced.
• I do not have to create a combat character. Sure, I can still be a Brick if I want to, but if I want to be someone who's supernaturally good with machines, there's an example power for that.
• Collateral Damage Effects are just cool, they give the idea that characters are probably holding back and can amp their powers up to a higher level if willing to harm things that aren't immune to them. These can range from sudden area attacks to more fun ones like the Insect (who can leap out of the way of any attack, which hits the floor), or the various fun ways moving anywhere in the city damages it.

All of that exists in M&M. So I wouldn't really use those as examples. You say the narrative fluff matters in Fate, could you expand on how it does that more than a standard RPG might?

[GrayDeath]

Depends on when and how you want to play Worm.

Early on, or generally things the Undersiders and similar Supers do before all **** breaks loose, would work best with Aberrant (very much a regular WW Offshoot that concerns itself with superpowers. Excellent if you want "realistic"/normal Rules and low to medium Powerlevels).
Should also work well with a Wards Series.

Wards/General "coming of age" Superstories might work best with Fate or an adaption of the SMallville RPG. Very story focused and not very ... fine given the effects and general detail.

If youa re aiming for the big leagues I`d opt for M&M though.

And the "pure Superhero" Variants mentioned if you intend to tackle Endbringers with InGame Rules instead of "mass effort holds them off until Scion arrives".
Although with the right mods M&M MIGHT work there as well, the DC Variant is "better" at emulating huge Power levels iirc.

Damn, now I REALLY want to play that....

[Anonymouswizard]

All of that exists in M&M. So I wouldn't really use those as examples. You say the narrative fluff matters in Fate, could you expand on how it does that more than a standard RPG might?

Eh, M&M literally doesn't have Collateral Damage Effects (some of the examples are luckluster, but the general idea is that you can amp up your power in one way), while M&M has extra effort and Hero Points they don't really allow you to be more powerful, just have a different power or be more reliable.

Also, M&M provides a limited list of affects and says 'go from here'. I'm also not 100% sure how Machine Control, Plant Control, or similar things would work in M&M, Move Object doesn't quite work. It's not that it's impossible to create a weird power in M&M, it's just in Venture City I can create Radioactive Body just by describing what it lets me do, and then spending a stunt if I want to get a +2 bonus in one aspect of it's use. M&M's big draw is that, with some GM oversight, all powersets are balanced. Venture City doesn't promise that, but does promise that all powers will be useful.

Also, in Fate narrative fluff is half the rules. Although this isn't stated in the rules, if you have say a 'broken legs' consequence you can only move by crawling. Also the most basic part of characters are their Aspects, which can be used to twist the narrative to a way that the Aspect suggests (the player does get a Fate Point), therefore the character's narrative fluff influences the story. This is better than Complications in M&M as Aspects are meant to be double sided, players should be invoking their Aspects for Good Stuff^TM just as much as the GM is compelling their Aspects for Bad Stuff^TM. There's more examples I could give, but I'm not fully awake and I'm sure there's posters here more suited to answering the question.

[Milo v3]

Eh, M&M literally doesn't have Collateral Damage Effects (some of the examples are luckluster, but the general idea is that you can amp up your power in one way), while M&M has extra effort and Hero Points they don't really allow you to be more powerful, just have a different power or be more reliable.

You'd represent different things in different ways, there is actually a chapter in Power Profiles that discusses how to handle boosting your powers if you can't figureout how to do it in the core book. But even without that help, you can do things like have a power that shoots a stream of fire and use your pyrokinesis to weave it around your allies and civilians, but then as an alternate effect have it not care if people are in the way and deal much more damage.

Also, M&M provides a limited list of affects and says 'go from here'.

There are more than enough effects that you can have them do basically anything you can think of since the effects are flavourless with the flavour added by descriptors and modifiers.

I'm also not 100% sure how Machine Control, Plant Control, or similar things would work in M&M, Move Object doesn't quite work.

Those things get whole chapters of sample powers in Power Profiles (which don't add in any additional rules, just pre-made powers made using the rules from the core rules).

It's not that it's impossible to create a weird power in M&M, it's just in Venture City I can create Radioactive Body just by describing what it lets me do, and then spending a stunt if I want to get a +2 bonus in one aspect of it's use.

Radiation form in M&M would just be Intangible + Reaction Damage, maybe with some immunities depending on how the form works.

Also, in Fate narrative fluff is half the rules. Although this isn't stated in the rules, if you have say a 'broken legs' consequence you can only move by crawling. Also the most basic part of characters are their Aspects, which can be used to twist the narrative to a way that the Aspect suggests (the player does get a Fate Point), therefore the character's narrative fluff influences the story. This is better than Complications in M&M as Aspects are meant to be double sided, players should be invoking their Aspects for Good Stuff^TM just as much as the GM is compelling their Aspects for Bad Stuff^TM. There's more examples I could give, but I'm not fully awake and I'm sure there's posters here more suited to answering the question.

Okay. So you try to invoke your flaws in the story often, opposite to most games I've seen.

[Anonymouswizard]

You'd represent different things in different ways, there is actually a chapter in Power Profiles that discusses how to handle boosting your powers if you can't figureout how to do it in the core book. But even without that help, you can do things like have a power that shoots a stream of fire and use your pyrokinesis to weave it around your allies and civilians, but then as an alternate effect have it not care if people are in the way and deal much more damage.

Sorry, I just prefer how they're presented in Venture City. Yes, I know that for a single point I can have an alternative effect that loses Selective in favour of a larger area (or the like), but it's different from how it feels in Venture City where everyone has to take one and thus forces you to think about what the strongest application of your power is. Also, the actual equivalent in M&M would be to let a power break the PL limits in exchange for collateral damage, although you can make a thematic equivalent if you want to.

But that's the difference. In M&M you're expected to be at peak power all the time. Venture City gives you a trick you can pull out when desperate, at the expense of damaging the city. Some of those affects are really useful but potentially dangerous (Phase through the wall and make it weaker, move anywhere within the city but leave destruction in your path, destroy everything in a zone because explosions, cover yourself in fire or lightning, and my personal favourite: teleport anywhere you want, but you have to be at a high speed just before and after the teleport).

There are more than enough effects that you can have them do basically anything you can think of since the effects are flavourless with the flavour added by descriptors and modifiers.


Those things get whole chapters of sample powers in Power Profiles (which don't add in any additional rules, just pre-made powers made using the rules from the core rules).

Lumping this lot together, I only have the core rulebook, and at that point the powers system is rather unintuitive. I mean sure, it's a great and versatile system, and I'm sure Power Profiles makes it much easier to use, but it just isn't as intuitive as the Venture City system (which is just a better organised version of the original Venture City Stories system with a bunch of examples and an additional dimension).

Now, when M&M comes together with a GM who understands it I'm certain that it's great and will be awesome to play, but I just haven't had the opportunity to play it with such a GM. The one time I did the GM did not actually understand how powers worked and we ended up with really weird characters rules-wise (we had one guy who should have had a set of Damage powers and a Protection power instead of the Summon power, I should have had a low level Variable instead of Creation [for my first character, scrapped for being too close to 'summon swords guy' we already had in the party, my second one was almost completely correct], and someone who should have had Morph but the GM didn't know that was separate from Shapeshift), with a bunch of small oddities.

Radiation form in M&M would just be Intangible + Reaction Damage, maybe with some immunities depending on how the form works.

Yes, my point was that I don't have to go through the list of effects, I just say 'well my body is radioactive, so [insert rules here]'. If I wanted to actually be made of radiation I might also nab the Phasing sample power or just add the ability to my current power by spending a stunt.

Okay. So you try to invoke your flaws in the story often, opposite to most games I've seen.

Kind of? Your Aspects are meant to be double sided, you're trying to invoke both your flaws and capabilities in equal amounts. This is because it's meant to simulate stories, where your flaws should come up often. However, too many compels will also stop your character from succeeding.

As I said, other posters on this forum have a better grasp of explaining it than I do. I suck at explaining stuff.

[Vknight]

My big suggestions are for Superhero systems are
Wild Talents and Base Raiders

One Roll Engine and FATE are both great game systems.

[Fri]

on MnM, a tip is, you shouldn't care about the powers' name at all. It's irrelevant.

How you build a character in MnM is, think what do your power actually do, check if there's a power that do that, and refluff it.

For example, attacking with a swarm summoned small weak spirits you summon from irrelevant thing in natures like insects, pebbles, and weeds as the BoZ brothers in Shaman king.

Spoiler

Show

. Is it summoning? Swarm? Rather than that, just use "shoot" power. If you want the small spirits to be able to help you moving stuffs, put "telekinesis" alternate at it.

Anyway, something I'd like to try but haven't got the chance yet is running a superhero game (actually more specifically One Punch Man game) using Powered by the Apocalypse.

Basically, because in that system you're rarely just be sucess at anything. Usually it's "success, but." I want to use it to mirror how Saitama could easily punch out any bad guys, but it doesn't narratively cleanly solve anything. So I'm thinking of things like "You successfully punch the monster in half, but it destroy half the city block and people hate you" and such.

[BlueHerring]

I'm of the opinion that Mutants and Masterminds isn't actually a good system for Worm, despite the fact that it's also my favorite system of all time.

Honestly, if you're playing Worm, I'd recommend either FATE (or FATE Accelerated) or Masks: A New Generation over Mutants and Masterminds.

For starters, while you can build all types of characters in M&M, some varieties of characters are going to cost more, or are somehow going to suffer mechanically. FATE/Masks works a lot better in the sense that everything's basically determined in a narrative sense, so you don't have to worry about building characters. For an inexperienced M&M player, this means not picking up weird power Effects that are pretty much useless (looking at you, Penetrating). There's no such loss in Fate or Masks, where you just have to decide what your character does.

Now, there's some really weird things about how M&M scales things, too. If a Worm-based game is going to be built using M&M, it's definitely not going to be at PL 10. Most players are probably going to be at PL 8 or lower, and the GM is probably going to have to rule on things like power limits, and ban Mind Reading outright.

If you're looking for a new system to pick up for the sole purpose of playing Worm, my money's on FATE or Masks. M&M is great for a lot of things, but Worm isn't one of them.

[Anonymouswizard]

To throw some more Fate advice out there, you can do Superheroes fine without Venture City, through a couple of methods:
-Just make up the rules for powers and eyeball balance.
-State that stunts are actually superpowers.
-Just state that everyone is a super, and assumed to be using their powers whenever possible. Normal people are Average nameless NPCs, and so get taken out by any hit, or very occasionally Fair nameless NPCs.

There, technically isn't a difference between Fate Core and Fate Accelerated (as the latter is just a build of the former), but Fate Core includes a default build in it and so here's the differences between the two books:
-Fate Core is much more customisable and as standard characters will differ from each other more than in FAE.
-Fate Core also assumes you'll use a skill list (with a sample one provided) that say what you do, while FAE uses a system of six approaches that says how you do it.
-Stunts work a bit differently, because as Approaches are broader than Skills you can't use the same guidelines.

Of note, Skills and Approaches aren't the only two options, another suggestion (from the Fate System Toolkit) is Professions, so a fantasy game could let you put your points into Warrior (hit stuff and absorb damage), Scholar (know stuff), Thief (get around), Ranger (survive in the wild), and Bard (talk to people). It's sort of the halfway point between Skills and Approaches.

[Vknight]

To throw some more Fate advice out there, you can do Superheroes fine without Venture City, through a couple of methods:
-Just make up the rules for powers and eyeball balance.
-State that stunts are actually superpowers.
-Just state that everyone is a super, and assumed to be using their powers whenever possible. Normal people are Average nameless NPCs, and so get taken out by any hit, or very occasionally Fair nameless NPCs.

There, technically isn't a difference between Fate Core and Fate Accelerated (as the latter is just a build of the former), but Fate Core includes a default build in it and so here's the differences between the two books:
-Fate Core is much more customisable and as standard characters will differ from each other more than in FAE.
-Fate Core also assumes you'll use a skill list (with a sample one provided) that say what you do, while FAE uses a system of six approaches that says how you do it.
-Stunts work a bit differently, because as Approaches are broader than Skills you can't use the same guidelines.

Of note, Skills and Approaches aren't the only two options, another suggestion (from the Fate System Toolkit) is Professions, so a fantasy game could let you put your points into Warrior (hit stuff and absorb damage), Scholar (know stuff), Thief (get around), Ranger (survive in the wild), and Bard (talk to people). It's sort of the halfway point between Skills and Approaches.

And there is Base Raiders which is a FATE game and supers so the best of everything and it even has rules for bases and other things

[curious-puzzle]

*Looks at all the systems suggested*

*slowly backs away*

I kid, thanks for all the awesome suggestions, I have some new systems to read when I decide to pull this off the back burner.

[Lord Raziere]

TBH, aside from the obligatory "M&M/Fate/Marvel Cortex" stuff?

my newest Superhero system love is Godbound. By itself its just a game about demigods and such, but it has enough rules and abilities that you can probably model a lot of concepts and such with the right Gifts and whatnot, if not all of them. its both less crunchy than M&M and not as narrative as Fate, so it has its upsides.

[Arbane]

my newest Superhero system love is Godbound. By itself its just a game about demigods and such, but it has enough rules and abilities that you can probably model a lot of concepts and such with the right Gifts and whatnot, if not all of them. its both less crunchy than M&M and not as narrative as Fate, so it has its upsides.

Godbound does look pretty cool, but it's more 'fantasy supers' than regular supers. I suppose you could adapt it for modern-day stuff, but a lot a D&Disms just seem kind of silly to me in a modern setting.

[BlueHerring]

TBH, aside from the obligatory "M&M/Fate/Marvel Cortex" stuff?

my newest Superhero system love is Godbound. By itself its just a game about demigods and such, but it has enough rules and abilities that you can probably model a lot of concepts and such with the right Gifts and whatnot, if not all of them. its both less crunchy than M&M and not as narrative as Fate, so it has its upsides.

Godbound's great for an extremely high-power fantasy game, but not so much for stuff like superheroes. Depending on what your players want, you're going to have to throw in new Words and the like, too.

It's a great system, since it's actually really simple, but it's going to require quite a bit of fiddling to get it to work with supers.

[digiman619]

There's The Phoenix Project, which was a fanmade add-on to d20 Modern that made it a superhero game. It was more of a mechanical take on superheroes rather than a flavorful one (i.e., what if you had STR 75 or 100 ranks in Tumble?), but it was interesting.