OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[CriticalFailure]

I think the kobold incident speaks to Elan and Durkon’s unwillingness to do sober about their allies’ poor choices.

[Dion]

Let’s talk about that gnome merchant that Belkar killed. Why didn’t they resurrect him? There was plenty of room on the cart.

[Peelee]

Death is reversible in D&D, torture is not.

Sure it is. Heal, prestidigitation, Regeneration, there are a whole plethora of spells that can be used to undone any damage done by torture.

Of course, if you want to argue the pain and suffering done, then you can say the same thing about death. So either both are reversible, or both have lasting emotional damage that can't be undone. I'm good either way, really.

[Sindeloke]

I'm still laughing a bit about the idea that people really would have thought that the heroes, of all the people, could take away a child from her mom, probably killing -for good, not in the "resurrect, kill, resurrect" way- her in the process.

Nobody has thought the Order would do anything about Hilgya for a long time. Their actions, or lack thereof, are irrelevant to what is actually warranted in this situation, and have seldom been under serious discussion.

I guess we're all free to laugh at jokes we make up ourselves, of course.

The TBD was killed by V, Eric was killed by an accident,

Oh yeah, I remember that the Giant was taken aback when a handful of posters got really concerned about the weird existential horror of Eric's infinite infancy, and straight up told people "I never intended that to be awful so go ahead and imagine whatever happy ending you need to, geez, you overthinking nutjobs."

Maybe the last part was just implied. Anyway, the Eric-Kudzu comparison specifically seems particularly relevant suddenly.

[The_Weirdo]

Nobody has thought the Order would do anything about Hilgya for a long time. Their actions, or lack thereof, are irrelevant to what is actually warranted in this situation, and have seldom been under serious discussion.

Well, let's see. The anti-Hilgya side, though she has been taking good care of Kudzu in general, argues that she's unstable, murderous and narcissistic, and, thus, should not be allowed to raise Kudzu.

The problem is his adventurer father is on record complaining about the notion that someone should have the right to pursue happiness. "Do it especially if it makes you miserable" and all that. So he's authoritarian, stifling and would likely scar his child for life, if we decide to judge him with the same standards by which we judge Hilgya.

So the question becomes "who should adopt Kudzu?", really.

[JumboWheat01]

Sure it is. Heal, prestidigitation, Regeneration, there are a whole plethora of spells that can be used to undone any damage done by torture.

Of course, if you want to argue the pain and suffering done, then you can say the same thing about death. So either both are reversible, or both have lasting emotional damage that can't be undone. I'm good either way, really.

Modify Memory seems to be a good way to get rid of emotional damage.

[Schroeswald]

Modify Memory seems to be a good way to get rid of emotional damage.

That seems to be a crime of a completely different type (and I’m hesitant to call it anything less than Evil, barring specific circumstances).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not much different than therapists using hypnosis to suppress memories to handle atm.

[Themrys]

Let’s talk about that gnome merchant that Belkar killed. Why didn’t they resurrect him? There was plenty of room on the cart.

Because they are all evil, obviously.


No, seriously, because he is an unimportant NPC and wasn't intended to appear in the story as more than an opportunity for Belkar to stab someone. That kind of thing where you have to just shrug it off as part of this comic being a stick figure comic that doesn't take itself too seriously.

It is strange of how people suddenly don't seem able to do that anymore when it comes to Hilgya. Sure, the story has become more serious, but it already was pretty serious when V and Belkar tortured that kobold. (And no, no memory charm would get rid of the player having witnessed what you did to their character. Which was what I was talking about, which I made very clear.)

@The_Weirdo: I still think Miko would be a good compromise. I mean, she thinks that misery builds character, but camping in the wilderness isn't quite as bad as staying in a forced and abusive marriage, so ... a good middle path, right?

[The_Weirdo]

@The_Weirdo: I still think Miko would be a good compromise. I mean, she thinks that misery builds character, but camping in the wilderness isn't quite as bad as staying in a forced and abusive marriage, so ... a good middle path, right?

That woman is dead to me.

She's also dead to everybody else.

[Dr.Zero]

Well, let's see. The anti-Hilgya side, though she has been taking good care of Kudzu in general, argues that she's unstable, murderous and narcissistic, and, thus, should not be allowed to raise Kudzu.

The problem is his adventurer father is on record complaining about the notion that someone should have the right to pursue happiness. "Do it especially if it makes you miserable" and all that. So he's authoritarian, stifling and would likely scar his child for life, if we decide to judge him with the same standards by which we judge Hilgya.

So the question becomes "who should adopt Kudzu?", really.

Eh, as surely you can remember, the comparisons about H and the general way Adventurers live their lives was done at the time.
And her presumed oh-so-evil alignment was discussed as well, compared to clearly stated Neutral people (ie: Therkla, the bouny hunters duo) (maybe even to Haley, but I can't remember for sure).
As surely you remember as well, it amounted to nothing, because, for some reason, for some people (the vast majority, at the time, or at least the most vocals) whatever bad H did was always much worse, whatever good she did (ie: not leaving the dudes who are friends with his hated target at TPK status) was never good enough, or was irrelevant, or whatnot.

So, did I return to start all of that again?

No. I returned only to laugh about the conclusion. And point. I like to point, too.

I think you should do the same.

On a side note: two adults putting aside their divergences for the well being of their kid, instead of headbutting forever. The page was sweet.

[Schroeswald]

Eh, as surely you can remember, the comparisons about H and the general way Adventurers live their lives was done at the time.
And her presumed oh-so-evil alignment was discussed as well, compared to clearly stated Neutral people (ie: Therkla, the bouny hunters duo) (maybe even to Haley, but I can't remember for sure).
As surely you remember as well, it amounted to nothing, because, for some reason, for some people (the vast majority, at the time, or at least the most vocals) whatever bad H did was always much worse, whatever good she did (ie: not leaving the dudes who are friends with his hated target at TPK status) was never good enough, or was irrelevant, or whatnot.

So, did I return to start all of that again?

No. I returned only to laugh about the conclusion. And point. I like to point, too.

I think you should do the same.

On a side note: two adults putting aside their divergences for the well being of their kid, instead of headbutting forever. The page was sweet.

It was soon enough someone would contest the fact that Hilgya is anything but Chaotic Evil, which is incredibly obvious from just looking at her, her complete lack of respect of the lives of anyone but her and her son (oh and War and XPs bonus content has that official confirmation according to C&LG, can we get that quote shown in spoiler tags please, I imagine it’s in the character profiles I’ve heard was there).

[Themrys]

That woman is dead to me.

She's also dead to everybody else.

That can be changed.

We all know this is a hypothetical debate anyway. The Giant isn't keen on killing babies, and I don't think he is keen on traumatizing babies, either.

Kudzu will not get adopted by anyone.

[Schroeswald]

That can be changed.

We all know this is a hypothetical debate anyway. The Giant isn't keen on killing babies, and I don't think he is keen on traumatizing babies, either.

He hasn’t included a single baby character before Kudzu, but has killed a toddler, three children and a teenager, do I need to say that again (also, having a baby be taken away from a mother isn’t traumatizing, I know plenty of people who were adopted and I don’t understand your decision that it is like pure evil).

[Jasdoif]

It was soon enough someone would contest the fact that Hilgya is anything but Chaotic Evil, which is incredibly obvious from just looking at her, her complete lack of respect of the lives of anyone but her and her son (oh and War and XPs bonus content has that official confirmation according to C&LG, can we get that quote shown in spoiler tags please, I imagine it’s in the character profiles I’ve heard was there).

Nothing quite so direct (believe me, I looked). In fact I don't even think it warrants spoiler tags....

Specifically, it was in commentary for part 3 of the book - the return of the Linear Guild:


"The first time around Durkon's opposite had been Hilgya, who, while evil, was not particularly opposed to Durkon himself."

[MossyMeow]

What complicates the matter of Kudzu is that dwarven culture is not equivalent to human culture, and dwarves are not humans. Can we even judge Durkon’s views on happiness when they are so obviously a product of his culture? Would it make him a worse parent? Would he be better than Hilgya, or worse? Neither?

[Sir_Norbert]

No, seriously, because he is an unimportant NPC and wasn't intended to appear in the story as more than an opportunity for Belkar to stab someone. That kind of thing where you have to just shrug it off as part of this comic being a stick figure comic that doesn't take itself too seriously.

"Because they didn't have the resources" is the obvious answer; not sure why you're reaching so hard for an alternative.

And that was clearly a serious moment. There was nothing funny about it at all. It was the start of the conflict between Haley and Celia, and brought out the fact that Haley wasn't cut out to be a party leader.

[Schroeswald]

Nothing quite so direct (believe me, I looked). In fact I don't even think it warrants spoiler tags....

But it does mean I don’t have to rest my argument on logic based on the actions of the character, I can just point to the fact that it’s been said and I clean my hands of the alignment debate.

[Sindeloke]

So the question becomes "who should adopt Kudzu?", really.

Sigdi has been suggested, but she clearly emotionally scarred Durkon through her emotional repression and refusal to clearly communicate the reasons behind her behavior, leading to his hyperfocus on duty and obedience and his critical vulnerability to vampirism (would Ponchula have been even half as effective as a leader built on Durkon's template? I think not). She would obviously raise Kudzu to be the most evil of authoritarians and should be taken out of the running as well.

[Rrmcklin]

Nobody has thought the Order would do anything about Hilgya for a long time. Their actions, or lack thereof, are irrelevant to what is actually warranted in this situation, and have seldom been under serious discussion.

I guess we're all free to laugh at jokes we make up ourselves, of course.

This. I've never thought anything would be done about Hilgya. My thoughts on the matter have always been about the dissonance of that fact when compared to other things Mr. Burlew has said and written on similar matters. Well, that and the people who seem dead-set on defending/justifying any and every action she takes for some reason.

Oh yeah, I remember that the Giant was taken aback when a handful of posters got really concerned about the weird existential horror of Eric's infinite infancy, and straight up told people "I never intended that to be awful so go ahead and imagine whatever happy ending you need to, geez, you overthinking nutjobs."

Maybe the last part was just implied. Anyway, the Eric-Kudzu comparison specifically seems particularly relevant suddenly.

To be fair, I honestly don't get why that matters. Yeah, if you were alive being stuck physically and mentally as a toddler would be a terrible thing, but Eric is in a great afterlife where all people are incapable of changing anyway. There's no actual reason to think being there as an adult is somehow better than being a child other than the fact that the people reading it were already adults and thus wouldn't like the idea of regressing in their current lives. But that's not Eric's situation, so it's not really applicable.

[MossyMeow]

I’d just like to point out that Kudzu could be adopted by anyone, not just his immediate family. Who knows, maybe that elderly gnome couple that just retired to the tropics will take him in.

[Rrmcklin]

I’d just like to point out that Kudzu could be adopted by anyone, not just his immediate family. Who knows, maybe that elderly gnome couple that just retired to the tropics will take him in.

Thank you for making this point. I haven't understood this insisting from some people it's either "stay with Hilgya or stay with Durkon/Durkon family" as if there are literally not other options.

[The_Weirdo]

This. I've never thought anything would be done about Hilgya. My thoughts on the matter have always been about the dissonance of that fact when compared to other things Mr. Burlew has said and written on similar matters. Well, that and the people who seem dead-set on defending/justifying any and every action she takes for some reason.

Well, setting aside how her clan deserved what it got, the fact of the matter is she is judged more harshly than, say, V or Belkar. The other fact of the matter is I had to deal with people assuming that Hilgya likely did something to justify or necessitate her forced marriage, with a natural number between -1 and 1 being the number of reasons to do so.

[monomer]

There is definitely some context that people are leaving out regarding Hilgya taking Kudzu into battle. She just got into town and almost immediately had to help a high level adventure party take out a large nest of vampires. There is definitely uncertainty on how many other vampires there are in the town, while the party knows just how ineffective the guards at the temple are and that they are completely ill-equipped to deal with a vampire attack. As such, she is justified (maybe not entirely correct, but has at leas has a defensible position) in her opinion that the safest place in the town is with a high level cleric. So, her options that other people have expressed are:

1. Get out of town and bring Kudzu to safety
2. Leave Kudzu at a temple of her god's enemy
3. Bring Kudzu with her, accompanied by a party of high level characters

So, obviously, she chose Option 3 so that she could ultimately get her revenge on Durkon. This may not be a great choice from the perspective of priorities, but with the knowledge she and the party have at this point, it certainly isn't the most dangerous option. Sure, she could try Option 1 to get out of town, or hole up in a safe spot, but who's to say she wouldn't come across another nest of vampires in this scenario, without the backup of the Order? She may be able to Plane Shift out of there, but that assumes she has Plane Shift prepared. Leaving Kudzu at the temple of Thor is probably the riskiest choice. The only real protection they have are static, and the living defenders remaining would not be able to hold off a dedicated vampire attack, and she probably thinks even less of their abilities since they're followers of :spit: Thor. So sure, bringing Kudu into battle is not great optics, but I have a hard time believing this is an example of bad parenting given the situation they're in. And while it turned out to be very nearly a bad choice, that was only due to her getting very unlucky on a Will save.

Now, killing Durkon and ressing him is much harder to justify. Someone mentioned it would be like punching someone in the face, while I would argue it's more like shooting someone in cold blood, then bandaging them up again.

[Rrmcklin]

There is definitely some context that people are leaving out regarding Hilgya taking Kudzu into battle. She just got into town and almost immediately had to help a high level adventure party take out a large nest of vampires. There is definitely uncertainty on how many other vampires there are in the town, while the party knows just how ineffective the guards at the temple are and that they are completely ill-equipped to deal with a vampire attack. As such, she is justified (maybe not entirely correct, but has at leas has a defensible position) in her opinion that the safest place in the town is with a high level cleric. So, her options that other people have expressed are:

1. Get out of town and bring Kudzu to safety
2. Leave Kudzu at a temple of her god's enemy
3. Bring Kudzu with her, accompanied by a party of high level characters

So, obviously, she chose Option 3 so that she could ultimately get her revenge on Durkon. This may not be a great choice from the perspective of priorities, but with the knowledge she and the party have at this point, it certainly isn't the most dangerous option. Sure, she could try Option 1 to get out of town, or hole up in a safe spot, but who's to say she wouldn't come across another nest of vampires in this scenario, without the backup of the Order? She may be able to Plane Shift out of there, but that assumes she has Plane Shift prepared. Leaving Kudzu at the temple of Thor is probably the riskiest choice. The only real protection they have are static, and the living defenders remaining would not be able to hold off a dedicated vampire attack, and she probably thinks even less of their abilities since they're followers of :spit: Thor. So sure, bringing Kudu into battle is not great optics, but I have a hard time believing this is an example of bad parenting given the situation they're in. And while it turned out to be very nearly a bad choice, that was only due to her getting very unlucky on a Will save.

Now, killing Durkon and ressing him is much harder to justify. Someone mentioned it would be like punching someone in the face, while I would argue it's more like shooting someone in cold blood, then bandaging them up again.

You're making a lot of unsupported assumptions, most importantly that Hilgya even has a good reason to be there to begin with. But she said flat out she neither knew nor cared about saving the world, and was only helping the Order for selfish, self-serving reasons.

So even assuming she had reason to distrust the acolytes of Thor (she did not, and thinking worshippers of Thor would in any way be a threat to her child is ridiculous on its face) putting Kudzu first would mean just leaving instead of doing the, again, in her own words, petty, self-serving thing. She did not do that, and therefore I am free to judge her based on that.

You have no reason to assuming there would be other vampires around anymore than Hilgya did, and absolutely no reason to think that highly unlikely scenario factored into her reasoning at all, because she never implies thinking any thing of the sort. She also specifically says that if the Order has a problem with her taking Kudzu she's going in alone, so she's not thinking of them as extra protection.

You can come up with justifications, but they don't really mean anything without an indication that Hilgya shares your thought process.

[Particle_Man]

While I don't think they will act on it (he because he would only think of it in terms of marrying her first (which ain't happening), and she because he rejected her), I think the mutual attraction between Durkon and Hilgya had for each other is still there.

[Themrys]

Well, setting aside how her clan deserved what it got, the fact of the matter is she is judged more harshly than, say, V or Belkar. The other fact of the matter is I had to deal with people assuming that Hilgya likely did something to justify or necessitate her forced marriage, with a natural number between -1 and 1 being the number of reasons to do so.

There are people who think forcing a woman into marriage can ever be justified?

And, what's more, are not ashamed to utter that thought in public?

That is ... disturbing.

[Schroeswald]

There are people who think forcing a woman into marriage can ever be justified?

And, what's more, are not ashamed to utter that thought in public?

That is ... disturbing.

I've not seen it a single time during my activity (so that time we talked about genocide, which I think would be the best way to bring out all the opinions relating to Hilgya, and this time).

[Rrmcklin]

I've not seen it a single time during my activity (so that time we talked about genocide, which I think would be the best way to bring out all the opinions relating to Hilgya, and this time).

I didn't witness it myself, but from what I've heard there was like one or two persons who said there might be circumstances that would make what happened to Hilgya sad but justifiable. The Weirdo has turned that into a parade of people gleefully advocating forcing women into marriages against their will, and will argue as such, even against people who have made it clear they do not hold that view, while also disagreeing with him about Hilgya in general.

[Jasdoif]

I didn't witness it myself, but from what I've heard there was like one or two persons who said there might be circumstances that would make what happened to Hilgya said but justifiable.

Here we are:

Her not wanting to do it is the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA of this marriage!

It's like the difference between giving some money to a beggar and being mugged! Not wanting to do it is THE SINGLE IMPORTANT PART of a mugging.

What could she possibly have done to justify being married off at crossbow point by any sane stretch of the imagination?

Off hand? Seduced Ivan. Or perhaps she scammed him into agreeing to marry her in an attempt to rob him or otherwise take advantage of him, and her clan found out and forced her to go through with it.

The first one seems unlikely given their marriage was never consummated, but it makes my point. Hilgya causes problems and then blames convenient targets without accepting any herself.