Relationship Woes and Advice 24: In which the heroine gets the hero, or vice versa.

[Velaryon]

I started typing up a post yesterday but stopped. At the time I didn't think I needed advice, just to vent, and I ended up venting to a friend instead of here. But today I feel like I need some advice after all, particularly from anyone who has experience with chronic depression, either in themselves or in someone very close to them.

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Last Friday, my girlfriend of just over ten months left me. I don't know if anyone remembers, but I posted in the previous thread for some advice regarding the girl I was seeing at the time. This is someone different, someone much more honest and able to return my love and affection. I'll try and sum up our story together without going on forever about it.

We started dating about a week before Thanksgiving last year, and hit it off immediately. She lives about half an hour's drive from me, and I just started grad school, so we mostly only got to see each other on weekends, but communicated via phone and IM all week.

Just after the new year, her father got sick. It was misdiagnosed as Miller-Fisher syndrome but was actually CJD, which is untreatable and fatal. He deteriorated quickly, and died in mid-April.

The rest of her family lives in Texas (we are in Illinois), and since she was between jobs she drove down to be with her family during his last days. I was able to fly down to see her for her birthday and meet her family. Her father was not lucid the whole time, so even though I was introduced and shook his hand, I never really met him. I had to leave after a few days because I had class, and he died later that week. My girlfriend (I'll call her Æ rather than using her initial) was with him the exact moment he died, which has continued to haunt her ever since. I know because she's told me that she has nightmares about it.

She's suffered from chronic depression since she was 12. She's now 26, so it's been with her for the majority of her life at this point. I'm also the first real romantic relationship she's ever had. As you might imagine, letting me in and trusting me with her inner workings was not easy, though she did her best, and I was always supportive and loving. We never even had any real fights or arguments.

She takes some form of antidepressants, though I regret I don't now the exact drug. She also takes some kind of sleep aid to knock her out at night, although again, I can't remember the name. I've never had a good head for drug names, partly because I don't really have to take many meds myself. The antidepressant mostly stops the panic attacks she used to have on a regular basis, but also mutes all her emotions. As a result she's a bit subdued, but even before she was on this particular medication she was always a bit reserved anyway. The sleeping pills knock her out, which is not real sleep but is better than nothing I guess.

During the last five months, she has told me periodically that her grief over her father's death has not gotten any better. It hurts just as much as it did before. To make it worse, the only two people whom she feels understood her depression and how it is for her were her dad and one of her two brothers, who is now living in California and expecting his first child with his wife. So one of her two best outlets is gone forever, and the other one is starting his own life and I don't think she wants to intrude. I have tried to take their place as best I can, but I guess I've come up short.

In addition to grieving, she feels lost because she doesn't have a career path figured out, and doesn't know where her life is going. She seemed happy with me, but unsure where or if I fit in with her long-term. But as her depression has gotten steadily worse, she has told me that going to social gatherings with her friends has felt like more of an obligation than fun. She was trying her best to make me happy. But as I told her, all I ever needed to be happy was to be with her.

The first sign of trouble was a few weeks ago. I was at her place all weekend, and although Saturday was great, Friday night and Sunday were rough. We ended up deciding to skip her friend's cookout that day and I went home early. We talked it out and things seemed to be better. I even went with her to church a couple weekends later (I have identified as atheist/agnostic for as long as I can remember, but have been reconsidering lately).

Last Friday, we met for dinner at a place that I picked. I knew that she was depressed and I thought I would try to cheer her up with some good memories, so I picked the restaurant where we had our first kiss. As soon as I got there, I knew something was wrong. She gave me back some books she'd been borrowing for a long time (OotS as a matter of fact), which immediately set off alarm bells in my head.

Sure enough, during dinner she told me that she felt like she couldn't handle being in a relationship right now. The depression and the grief is overwhelming her and she feels that she needs to deal with it by herself, rather than worrying about giving me the love and attention that she feels I deserve. She wanted me to go for my own good, in other words.

We were both so overwhelmed that we left without working out little details like whether to stay in contact, how to break the news to friends and family, and so on, so we talked about it Sunday. She didn't care how her friends found out, other than her best friend that she confided the full story to. So I sent them a short detail-free message explaining that she and I were not able to continue on together, thanking them for accepting me, and asking them to take care of her.

She assured me that she is not suicidal. I made her promise me that if that changes, if it even crosses her mind for a moment, she will reach out to whoever she can.

Since then, I've been wondering whether I'm handling this right. I asked her not to worry about me, since her own sadness and grief is already overwhelming her. I told her that I reluctantly supported her decision, but we agreed this isn't what either of us wants, just what she feels is necessary. I told her that if she reconsidered or got better to the point where she could handle a relationship, I was there for her. She told me not to wait on her. I said that I wouldn't wait my whole life, but that even if I wanted to move on right now I can't. Aside from the fact that I'm still deeply in love with her, my time is divided between grad school and searching for a better job anyway, so trying to date is just not an option anyway.

I thought that I was doing the right thing by not arguing with her decision. If she says she wants me gone, I can't force her to let me stay. But is it wrong of me to let her isolate herself like this? Maybe her depression medication is making things worse instead of better. She's seeing a therapist weekly but it's clearly not getting the job done. We agreed to stay in touch but keep our distance. Am I doing the right thing? If not, what should I be doing?

[MrDirt]

I don't know if dealing with depression is something that a person can do on their own, it is very difficult. You need to be supportive of her.

[Velaryon]

I don't know if dealing with depression is something that a person can do on their own, it is very difficult. You need to be supportive of her.

Sure. That's what I have been trying to do all along, and I would like to continue. But how do I do it, beyond just being there for her (which I can't even do now that she's decided to push me away)?

[MrDirt]

Sure. That's what I have been trying to do all along, and I would like to continue. But how do I do it, beyond just being there for her (which I can't even do now that she's decided to push me away)?

I have never been on your side of this situation, only hers. Depression tends to make people feel like a burden to those around them. When I was depressed I would regularly convince myself that I was just holding back my friends and family and that their attempts to help were just in vain (since I asumed that I would eventually kill myself). My fiancee wouldn't take 'no' for an answer and basically forced me to listen to her at times. It was basically a 'tough love' situation. Maybe try to be more forceful (while still being supportive) if you think that might work.

[Morgarion]

Velaryon,

That's a real rough situation to be in. I don't know specifically what you have said to your ex, but you admit you really love her so I think it's important you make sure that she knows you're available to her. Were I you, I would send her a message reiterating your feelings and how you don't need anything but to be there for her right now.

I don't know. I think honesty is always the best policy, so be honest with her. I think this is just overall good relationship advice - just be honest. If you have feelings for someone, tell them! If you're getting upset by someone else's behavior, let them know! It can be difficult and terrifying, but it really is better than saying nothing and more often than not it's your only option. Now, Velaryon, I'm not addressing this section exclusively to you. Your situation seems to be more of a ball's-in-her-court thing. The sad corollary fact to a policy of honesty is that if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Sometimes, no matter how honest and passionate and articulate you are about an issue or a person, they just don't understand or agree or reciprocate or whatever.

For your ex's sake, I hope she decides that she'd appreciate the love and support you're offering her right now, while she needs it the most. Best of luck.

[Velaryon]

I have never been on your side of this situation, only hers. Depression tends to make people feel like a burden to those around them. When I was depressed I would regularly convince myself that I was just holding back my friends and family and that their attempts to help were just in vain (since I asumed that I would eventually kill myself). My fiancee wouldn't take 'no' for an answer and basically forced me to listen to her at times. It was basically a 'tough love' situation. Maybe try to be more forceful (while still being supportive) if you think that might work.

Did that work for you? Obviously you haven't killed yourself (and I hope you never do), but did that "tough love" approach help you get through? If so, maybe you're right and I should try it.

[MrDirt]

Did that work for you? Obviously you haven't killed yourself (and I hope you never do), but did that "tough love" approach help you get through? If so, maybe you're right and I should try it.

It helped a lot knowing that someone cared that much for me. It would be up to your best judgement since you know her better than any of us do (or could online, since you know her IRL).

[Velaryon]

It helped a lot knowing that someone cared that much for me. It would be up to your best judgement since you know her better than any of us do (or could online, since you know her IRL).

I've talked about this with some of my friends over the last few days, some of whom know her and some of whom don't. Some of them are of the opinion that this is temporary, that when she her depression improves for a bit she will decide that she made a mistake and get back together with me. I would like nothing more than to believe this, but I'm afraid that she will talk herself out of it. She's very smart (I graduated top 10 in my high school class and yet feel like I have to work to keep up with her), and I wonder if she might be too smart for her own good in this. I worry that she will want that, and will decide that I at least am better off, and choose not to come back to me.

[Dvil]

Update on my situation which has left me rather confused:

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Today when I went on fb and the girl who I love and was rejected by and stayed friends with for months then recently cut me off (I'll say A because everyone else seems to use letters), had poked me on both her profiles. A sometimes used the pokes to tell me that she wants to talk, other times A's just poking everyone on her list cause she's bored.

The realistic part of me said it was the latter. So I just poked back and ignored it. Then when I checked later she had poked me again, and this happened several times in the day. But everytime A was offline by the time I went on. About an hour ago A sent it while it was online and because of the rather large number of pokes the realistic part sorta gave into my desperate want for hope and basically immediately sent a message saying "umm... hey..." and from there I awkwardly asked if A still hated me.

She said idk... so I decided to give her space, said sorry for bothering her and was just going to leave. But then A told me to not say sorry, "Just... Coz". Deciding to not interrogate her about why any further I decided to leave "again" and just said that if she stops hating her to tell me and that I missed her... Which was a really bad move...

A immediately told me not to say that I miss her and that hearing me say that makes her feel like crying.... which immediately made me go back to my habit of trying to make her feel better (I'm not good at it, but sometimes I "apparently" made a difference)... which caused A to send her symbol of I don't know what to say....

So again I decided to leave because obviously I was just making things worse...

I don't really have much advice or anything here, but I'm just posting my initial surface thoughts upon reading this. Feel free to read or not read as you like, I don't even really know what I'm trying to say

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First things first, the phrase "do you still hate me" is never a good idea I can't say exactly why but it just comes across as kinda needy/wimpy (not exactly, but it's the closest words I can think of right now) and sets the conversation off on the wrong tone. As a rule of thumb, I find that if someone needs space for whatever reason, it's almost never a good idea to make a parting comment like that. Just give 'em the space they need and no more. I don't really know where I'm going with this though, so I'm going to stop here

[Glass Mouse]

@Velaryon: I don't have any advice, but you get a lot of sympathy hugs from me.

I can't say exactly why but it just comes across as kinda needy/wimpy (not exactly, but it's the closest words I can think of right now) and sets the conversation off on the wrong tone.

Let me try. Overdramatizations are a way to shift focus back to yourself. "Do you hate me?" is not a listening nor empathetic question. Instead it screams "Validate me!". It's basically a non-question. Who could answer yes?

Potentially the same deal with apologies. They're a great thing but they need to be said for the other person's sake. Again, overdramatization leads to the other person having to validate your emotions, when they really should be feeling soothed themself.
Not saying you gave that kind of apology, but worth keeping in mind regardless. Way too many apologies are given for the wrong reasons.

I truly understand the desire to push-and-pull emotions like that. But it sounds like your first instincts were sound, and this girl is a waste of your time. Time to let go

[Dvil]

Let me try...

That's exactly it, bang on. Thanks for saying what I couldn't quite manage to

[Velaryon]

@Velaryon: I don't have any advice, but you get a lot of sympathy hugs from me.

Thank you. Every little bit helps.

Let me try. Overdramatizations are a way to shift focus back to yourself. "Do you hate me?" is not a listening nor empathetic question. Instead it screams "Validate me!". It's basically a non-question. Who could answer yes?

Potentially the same deal with apologies. They're a great thing but they need to be said for the other person's sake. Again, overdramatization leads to the other person having to validate your emotions, when they really should be feeling soothed themself.
Not saying you gave that kind of apology, but worth keeping in mind regardless. Way too many apologies are given for the wrong reasons.

I truly understand the desire to push-and-pull emotions like that. But it sounds like your first instincts were sound, and this girl is a waste of your time. Time to let go

I know this isn't directed at me, and I've no idea whether it's applicable to me or not, but this is very insightful, and something I would like to consider. Thank you for sharing this.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. I don't think I've ever really been flirted with or had a girl be interested in me so far. .

It can be hard to tell. My girl friend (of 8 months as of Sunday ) really didn't show any signs of liking me for a long time. We were just sort of causal friends who wound up hanging out one on one. I started liking her, and unlike past girls, I actually wasn't admiring her from two tables down, so I thought I had a shot. The first time I asked her out it didn't even work. Two weeks later she ended up asking me out and I said yes.

So yeah. As I said, it's hard to tell.

[Milo v3]

Hard as it might be, I think you just need to cut this person out. They were willing to do the same to you and basically they don't appear to care that distress they're causing you. Go for the clean break I think.

I don't agree with saying that A doesn't appear to care about the distress she causes, because in the past few months she's felt guilty on multiple occasions about not liking me back and feeling that she was screwing up the nicest guy she ever met.

But anyway... how would you cut someone out when they've already done it?

I don't really have much advice or anything here, but I'm just posting my initial surface thoughts upon reading this. Feel free to read or not read as you like, I don't even really know what I'm trying to say

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First things first, the phrase "do you still hate me" is never a good idea I can't say exactly why but it just comes across as kinda needy/wimpy (not exactly, but it's the closest words I can think of right now) and sets the conversation off on the wrong tone. As a rule of thumb, I find that if someone needs space for whatever reason, it's almost never a good idea to make a parting comment like that. Just give 'em the space they need and no more. I don't really know where I'm going with this though, so I'm going to stop here

Let me try. Overdramatizations are a way to shift focus back to yourself. "Do you hate me?" is not a listening nor empathetic question. Instead it screams "Validate me!". It's basically a non-question. Who could answer yes?

She could easily say yes. She began hating me recently, which was the cause of her cutting me out of her life. I wasn't asking for validation, I was asking because if she was still angry then I obviously read the signals wrong, should give her space, instead of trying to continue a conversation where she might still hate me which would just annoy the hell out of her.

Potentially the same deal with apologies. They're a great thing but they need to be said for the other person's sake. Again, overdramatization leads to the other person having to validate your emotions, when they really should be feeling soothed themself.
Not saying you gave that kind of apology, but worth keeping in mind regardless. Way too many apologies are given for the wrong reasons.

It wasn't really an apology... I just said "Ok. Sorry for bothering you." I was trying to exist the conversation politely, and didn't think I was making a big deal of it, but I could be wrong I guess.

I truly understand the desire to push-and-pull emotions like that. But it sounds like your first instincts were sound, and this girl is a waste of your time. Time to let go

Idk what to say to this....

[rogueboy]

I don't agree with saying that A doesn't appear to care about the distress she causes, because in the past few months she's felt guilty on multiple occasions about not liking me back and feeling that she was screwing up the nicest guy she ever met.

But anyway... how would you cut someone out when they've already done it?

Well, for one thing, by not engaging with them. Yes, it may be hard, but it also sounds like it's necessary at this point. You can block them, unfriend them, or neither on FB, but don't give in to the temptation to engage in conversation, poking, or anything else. The more you engage her, the more you're preventing her from leaving, and the harder you're making it for both of you.

She could easily say yes.

Even if she does/did/whatever, no. She can't "easily say yes." She could say yes if she wanted to be completely heartless, but most people aren't going to casually say that they hate someone to their face, except in the heat of the moment. Especially someone who they ever cared for in any way (friendship included).

It wasn't really an apology... I just said "Ok. Sorry for bothering you." I was trying to exist the conversation politely, and didn't think I was making a big deal of it, but I could be wrong I guess.

That... isn't necessarily a whole lot better. Whether intended or not, it can easily be seen as a guilt-trip of sorts, in that you talking to her was an imposition on her. If that's how she interpreted it, then you come across as being really clingy, which is hardly a positive step, for (hopefully) obvious reasons.

[Glass Mouse]

rogueboy covered most of my points already, but I wanted to add:

She could easily say yes. She began hating me recently, which was the cause of her cutting me out of her life. I wasn't asking for validation, I was asking because if she was still angry then I obviously read the signals wrong, should give her space, instead of trying to continue a conversation where she might still hate me which would just annoy the hell out of her.

There's only one way this question makes sense - and that's if she has already used that word to you. If she has stated that she hates you, in no uncertain terms, not in the heat of the moment and then regretted, but clearly and unquestionably. If so, yes, it's a fair-ish question.
I say "fair-ish", because if she has truly said that, I have no idea why you would even entertain the idea of contacting her. Hate is pretty much the strongest negative emotion in existence, and way past the point of no return.

If, however, you just wanted to know if she was angry with you, there's a perfectly servicable question: "hey, are you still angry with me?"

The thing is, even if you weren't asking for validation, that's how the hate question comes across. It's sad, but intentions don't really matter - what you actually say, does.

[Milo v3]

Well, for one thing, by not engaging with them. Yes, it may be hard, but it also sounds like it's necessary at this point. You can block them, unfriend them, or neither on FB, but don't give in to the temptation to engage in conversation, poking, or anything else. The more you engage her, the more you're preventing her from leaving, and the harder you're making it for both of you.

I wasn't planning on contacting her first already, but I'm rather hesitant to cut her off from if she tries to contact me. She's got issues and I'm worried about her, so if she later tries to talk to me because she's lonely and depressed (and is no longer mad at me), I think it would be a significantly bad idea to ignore her.

Even if she does/did/whatever, no. She can't "easily say yes." She could say yes if she wanted to be completely heartless, but most people aren't going to casually say that they hate someone to their face, except in the heat of the moment. Especially someone who they ever cared for in any way (friendship included).

I think I may have discribed this wrong.... I wasn't just randomly asking "do you hate me?", she was pissed off at me by a huge amount last time we spoke and I was asking if she was still mad at me, because sometimes she remains pissed off at stuff like that for weeks or months while other times she doesn't care after a few days. I think she would know this is what I meant from the context, but obviously I described it incorrectly here.

That... isn't necessarily a whole lot better. Whether intended or not, it can easily be seen as a guilt-trip of sorts, in that you talking to her was an imposition on her. If that's how she interpreted it, then you come across as being really clingy, which is hardly a positive step, for (hopefully) obvious reasons.

It'd be very bad if that was how it was taken. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

There's only one way this question makes sense - and that's if she has already used that word to you. If she has stated that she hates you, in no uncertain terms, not in the heat of the moment and then regretted, but clearly and unquestionably. If so, yes, it's a fair-ish question.
I say "fair-ish", because if she has truly said that, I have no idea why you would even entertain the idea of contacting her. Hate is pretty much the strongest negative emotion in existence, and way past the point of no return.

If, however, you just wanted to know if she was angry with you, there's a perfectly servicable question: "hey, are you still angry with me?"

The thing is, even if you weren't asking for validation, that's how the hate question comes across. It's sad, but intentions don't really matter - what you actually say, does.

Yes I was asking if she was still angry with me. I used the word hate out of reflex, you hear the word alot in my environment. I probably should have worded it differently, though I'm pretty sure she knew what I meant.

[Chen]

I wasn't planning on contacting her first already, but I'm rather hesitant to cut her off from if she tries to contact me. She's got issues and I'm worried about her, so if she later tries to talk to me because she's lonely and depressed (and is no longer mad at me), I think it would be a significantly bad idea to ignore her.

Cutting her out means no contact at all from either end. You have two options here. One is exactly what many people have been saying. Break off all contact forevermore. The other is to stay in contact. If you do, then tell her how you feel. Tell her that you feel she's using you when she needs it (her feeling guilty, her needing support etc) and then discarding you when she doesn't. This is not healthy and clearly not the way friends behave to one another.

Considering the unrequited love from your side, your best bet IS to simply cut off all communication. She has told you she doesn't love you back (if I recall correctly). Time to move on and frankly its going to be near impossible to do that if you remain in contact with this person at all.

[Milo v3]

Cutting her out means no contact at all from either end. You have two options here. One is exactly what many people have been saying. Break off all contact forevermore. The other is to stay in contact. If you do, then tell her how you feel. Tell her that you feel she's using you when she needs it (her feeling guilty, her needing support etc) and then discarding you when she doesn't. This is not healthy and clearly not the way friends behave to one another.

Considering the unrequited love from your side, your best bet IS to simply cut off all communication. She has told you she doesn't love you back (if I recall correctly). Time to move on and frankly its going to be near impossible to do that if you remain in contact with this person at all.

Right.... Soo... You would say it would be a bad thing if say... This happened:

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Half an hour ago I went on fb to comment about how Derren Brown is evil and a supervillian, and within 15 seconds I got a "message" from A. It was a sound file of this funny thing and when I asked what it was (it wasn't working at first so I had no idea what it was), and apparently that was her attempt at breaking the ice, because she decided something "weird and stupid" would be best. And then we just started talking again, her sending me pics, me saying she's beautiful...

And then you sent that... I'm not exactly sure how to respond....

[Chessgeek]

You have to decide what you're doing here. If you want to gain distance, you have to take steps to that effect. Avoid contact, chat-chitting, exactly what you just did, as much as possible. If not... Well Chen said it quite well:

Tell her that you feel she's using you when she needs it (her feeling guilty, her needing support etc) and then discarding you when she doesn't. This is not healthy and clearly not the way friends behave to one another.

[Philemonite]

Velaryon, I can't say I know exactly what the situation is so you should think about it before you listen to my advice.

The most important thing is to do this directly, face to face.
Tell her that you want to be there for. Tell her that you want to spend your time on her and that she is not a burden. Ask her if she thinks that your presence will affect her negatively. If she is sure of that the you need to let her go. But if she is not sure hold on to that. Make her realize that her happiness makes you happy. Even if you are just friends.
That's all I can think of right now, continue in that direction.

[Chen]

Right.... Soo... You would say it would be a bad thing if say... This happened:

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Half an hour ago I went on fb to comment about how Derren Brown is evil and a supervillian, and within 15 seconds I got a "message" from A. It was a sound file of this funny thing and when I asked what it was (it wasn't working at first so I had no idea what it was), and apparently that was her attempt at breaking the ice, because she decided something "weird and stupid" would be best. And then we just started talking again, her sending me pics, me saying she's beautiful...

And then you sent that... I'm not exactly sure how to respond....

Its the same thing as you mentioned before. Which will lead to the same cycle as before and then you'll be upset again. As I said, tell her to stop abusing your friendship or just cut it off completely. Else you're bound to repeat the same back and forths again and again and you're just going to hop between frustrated and not again and again.

[Milo v3]

You have to decide what you're doing here. If you want to gain distance, you have to take steps to that effect. Avoid contact, chat-chitting, exactly what you just did, as much as possible. If not... Well Chen said it quite well:

Its the same thing as you mentioned before. Which will lead to the same cycle as before and then you'll be upset again. As I said, tell her to stop abusing your friendship or just cut it off completely. Else you're bound to repeat the same back and forths again and again and you're just going to hop between frustrated and not again and again.

Firstly, I don't agree with the idea that she's abusing the relationship or using me. That was the first time she ever did anything like that, and it was because I hurt her emotionally and she has a tendency to react severely if she's hurt in defense. If anyone has abused the relationship IMO its more likely me, still loving her and saying things like calling her beautiful, after she rejected me.

Secondly, I don't exactly get frustrated, I did at the start of the relationship but we spoke to each other about the issues and fixed them as best we can. It does hurt, but those moments are sparce, lesser then the joy she causes, and much lesser than the depression and hurt I had without her. It does hurt, but it hurts less than earlier, probably because she actually listens and cares about me especially if I'm hurt (whether it's her fault or anyone elses).

Finally, but I know that I probably should stop contacting her. I know it'll hurt but apparently the benefits of it would come after some time. But I really don't want to do that to her. She has issues, suffers from depression, commits self-harm, and has been suicidal, and apparently I'm one of the only people that actually seems to care about her and likes the stuff about her that everyone else seems to just deal with. So I don't want to turn my back on her like so many people have, and just become another example to fuel her self-loathing.

So... yeah... I probably won't act on any suggestion of cutting her off, at least for a while... I know it might not be the best choice for me, but I care about her too much to add to her depression like that, especially after she just stopped being pissed off at me.

[Velaryon]

Velaryon, I can't say I know exactly what the situation is so you should think about it before you listen to my advice.

The most important thing is to do this directly, face to face.
Tell her that you want to be there for. Tell her that you want to spend your time on her and that she is not a burden. Ask her if she thinks that your presence will affect her negatively. If she is sure of that the you need to let her go. But if she is not sure hold on to that. Make her realize that her happiness makes you happy. Even if you are just friends.
That's all I can think of right now, continue in that direction.

I'm worried that she's isolating herself, which seems like a bad idea. Everything I've read reinforces my belief that it's a bad idea. As far as I know, she has confided the real reasons for our breakup to two people: her mom and her best friend. The rest of her friends heard it from me, when I sent them a brief goodby message thanking them for their friendship and acceptance of me, because she didn't care how they found out.

Right now my plan is to give her a week or two's worth of space, unless she initiates contact before that. I really don't believe isolation is good for her, but that seems like a fair amount of time to give it a shot before at least putting in my two cents. In the meantime, she's getting a new roommate next weekend who I hope will engage her more than her previous one did.\

I'm trying to spend what time I can learning about depression from as many angles as possible and trying to enhance my understanding as best I can. Is there anything else I could or should be doing?

[Chessgeek]

I generally try to be polite over the internet, but here I feel like a stronger tone will be more effective at getting my point across. So, apologies in advance, but here are my thoughts based on how I understand the situation.

You need to give her space or not give her space. You can stay where you are if you want, but to me it doesn't seem like it will get better for either side. So you'll be stuck where you are. Not necessarily a bad thing for you, but it means you're delaying and ultimately prolonging the time it's going to take to finally get over her when you eventually need to. And again, you will need to eventually unless your relationship is much less static than I've interpreted it to be.

Now, as for the depression/suicide bit: I hear you, and I guess you're right that you shouldn't cut her off at the moment, but that needs to change somehow. As in talks with friends/family/professionals. I'm not trying to be a Richard here, but frankly you're enabling her right now. She gets to talk to the nice guy who always says good things and tells her she's right while she hides from her actual problems. Whether it's you or someone else (again, friends/family/professionals) she needs someone to make her deal with whatever her issues are.

And as a parting note, it's up to you to decide how much influence you want to have here, but just doing what you're doing right now without setting the wheels in motion just seems to be doing you both more harm than good.

[rogueboy]

First off, responding to things since my last post...

I wasn't planning on contacting her first already, but I'm rather hesitant to cut her off from if she tries to contact me. She's got issues and I'm worried about her, so if she later tries to talk to me because she's lonely and depressed (and is no longer mad at me), I think it would be a significantly bad idea to ignore her.

This part's been covered by others, so I'll leave it there.

I think I may have discribed this wrong.... I wasn't just randomly asking "do you hate me?", she was pissed off at me by a huge amount last time we spoke and I was asking if she was still mad at me, because sometimes she remains pissed off at stuff like that for weeks or months while other times she doesn't care after a few days. I think she would know this is what I meant from the context, but obviously I described it incorrectly here.

To be clear, I don't see your clarification as changing anything from what I had read in your initial description of the issue, and it CERTAINLY doesn't change any of what I said in my last post.

It'd be very bad if that was how it was taken. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

Sadly, it's impossible to guarantee that someone will take something the right way. It's why I tend to sit on something I've written for a bit while I decide if it's phrased right, how it might be misinterpreted, etc. I find that I need to do that even more than usual if I'm in any kind of emotional situation.

For that particular example, you can see how differently it can be taken by reading your quote ("Ok. Sorry for bothering you.") in a friendly tone (which is what you intended), and then in a harsher tone. It goes from being a polite apology for intruding to just being downright nasty and unpleasant.

Yes I was asking if she was still angry with me. I used the word hate out of reflex, you hear the word alot in my environment. I probably should have worded it differently, though I'm pretty sure she knew what I meant.

If she knows how you meant the word, it's not as bad, but this is one of those cases where even a minor miscommunication may lead to a fair amount of emotionally-driven misinterpretations of things said later.

Firstly, I don't agree with the idea that she's abusing the relationship or using me. That was the first time she ever did anything like that, and it was because I hurt her emotionally and she has a tendency to react severely if she's hurt in defense. If anyone has abused the relationship IMO its more likely me, still loving her and saying things like calling her beautiful, after she rejected me.

OK, I'm probably going to be excessively blunt here, but stick with me (and if someone wants to rephrase this to be less harsh, please do so): Then you're delusional about the relationship. You're acting clingy, which isn't awesome, but is more frustrating than insulting. She's actively taking advantage of that clinginess, and using it to make herself feel better, taking advantage of your desire to not see her being negative towards herself. Taking advantage of someone else's emotional hangups (that's your pining over her) is INCREDIBLY disrespectful. The healthy answer from her would be to take her time away from you, allow you to get over her, and then be very careful about returning to any kind of interaction, if that's something that she truly wants.

Finally, but I know that I probably should stop contacting her. I know it'll hurt but apparently the benefits of it would come after some time. But I really don't want to do that to her. She has issues, suffers from depression, commits self-harm, and has been suicidal, and apparently I'm one of the only people that actually seems to care about her and likes the stuff about her that everyone else seems to just deal with. So I don't want to turn my back on her like so many people have, and just become another example to fuel her self-loathing.

So... yeah... I probably won't act on any suggestion of cutting her off, at least for a while... I know it might not be the best choice for me, but I care about her too much to add to her depression like that, especially after she just stopped being pissed off at me.

OK, now we have new information, which changes a lot. She's depressive and suicidal. As Chessgeek pointed out, it's nice that you're providing her with support, but make sure you aren't just acting as an avoidance tactic. She will need to address her issues at some point. I'm not saying that a temporary escape isn't a good thing (I'd argue the opposite, in fact), but complete avoidance of her issues isn't going to let her move forward, won't let you get anything resembling a conclusion or progress, and will drive you (and anyone else who tries to help her) to a breaking point eventually.

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And now, an update on my own adventures (going back to post 675, wherein I had just asked out the girl I've been talking to on OKC): It took her longer than normal to reply, but she got back to me yesterday morning, suggesting either a concert Friday night or drinks on Sunday (I had suggested a concert or drinks whenever her migraines gave way sufficiently), and gave me her number. I finally got a chance to reply to her last night, and we're planning on the concert tomorrow night, although I still don't know the exact timing (details weren't entirely known yesterday). Progress!

[rs2excelsior]

So regarding this:

Spoiler

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Well, I just moved back in today. I haven't seen her yet, but I do hope to talk to her soon and hang out some (there's a few days before classes start). I think I'm going to give it another go. Something along the lines of "that offer is still open if you want to take it" or something along those lines. Not immediately, but before too long. If she's interested, great. If not, if it was just an excuse, I'll know that and I can move on.

So yeah. I'm not really asking for advice here, I guess I'm just running my plan past some people who have more experience than I in this field. And, by posting this, I'm committing myself to asking her. I'll see how it goes.

I just got the "I still want to be friends, but no more" text today. My attempts to drown my sorrows in milkshakes and french fries covered in cheese and bacon have been thus far unsuccessful.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Spoiler: Uggh. Screw everything, LDS is terrible. Some strong language quoted within.

Show

Alright so, me and my girlfriend, J, have been having some troubles lately. So far we've seen each other most every weekend since I started college. I think there's been one exception, maybe two. Anyway. This is a really bad weekend for me to hang out. I feel like I'm starting to get sick, I've got and Economics exam and a Japanese quiz on Monday, there's a commencement speech by Randy freaking Newman tomorrow night, and then there's the second meeting of the college's comics club on Saturday. I also have work on Sunday and I have to make a rather lengthy trip to the band deposit my first check.

I said I would drop everything I just mentioned and come down to see her if I could get a ride (I've been asking everyone I know with a car, offering to buy gas for people who might be going down anyway and outright paying others), but that wasn't ideal for me. She said maybe she could come up (even though she's been in a lot of pain recently). I said okay, but that if she did I'd still be going to these events, because while she's the most important thing to me, these other things are a must. I also told her I'd feel bad doing that, as I would feel like I was ignoring her.

I've got stupid "all or nothing" thinking like that. She then tore in to me saying that, she sees my way of thinking isn't healthy. Which is totally fair, it's not. She also said that instead of giving her hope that I might be able to see her I should just say that I can't see her outright if I think that's the case so that I don't crush. Near the end of it all she asked if I had, "anything to say for myself." J had been growing incredibly patronizing throughout the conversation, but I thought she was right, so I held my tongue and told her I'd been an "*******" and that I'd be sure to take what we'd decided together from the conversation into account next time it came to scheduling time for the two of us. I then told her I had to go because I have to study for my Japanese quiz tomorrow, because, hey, I did. I still do.

I thought we were done, but then she sent me this: "I love you but you are a ****ing *******." I'm done. I'm not done with the relationship, but I'm done with this crap. I told her I wasn't going to put up with that and that I didn't deserve that. She apologized, but I'm not having it. Not now. Not yet, anyway. Not sure if or when I am.

[Glass Mouse]

I just got the "I still want to be friends, but no more" text today. My attempts to drown my sorrows in milkshakes and french fries covered in cheese and bacon have been thus far unsuccessful.

Sorry to hear that. A small tip: Chocolate adds a +2 to healing power, so go for that.

So far we've seen each other most every weekend since I started college.

No matter what, no matter how accomodating, no matter anything, this is not a sustainable situation (as you're discovering). It just leads to the two people not being quite "there" when they're together, and it leads to fight like the one you just had.

You need to either (or both - I recommend both):

1. Cut down on your weekends together so you can have a reasonable social and study life on your own. Yes, romantic partners should be our highest priority, but taking every weekend off is just unreasonable. Maybe cut down to every second weekend? Establish a two-weekends-together-one-apart pattern? Anything you can negotiate.
2. Heavily and happily incorporate each other in your lives. Bring her along to the comics club, go to the bank together (and stop for milkshakes on the way), etc. Holing up in twosomeness might be sustainable if you live together (though still not advisable), but in an LDR it's just social and scholarly suicide.

Of course you might be made from stronger stuff than me, but I broke my neck on an "every weekend" LDR in high school. College is really, really no better.

Good luck!

[Serpentine]

Milo v3: Your friendship is unhealthy. It is just plain bad, for both of you. You know that Nice Guy^TM you hear so much about? You pretty much have a pathological case of it - up to and including passive-aggression when things don't go the way you want them to. You have her up on this pedestal, and are sacrificing your dignity, self-worth and emotional resources on the altar you have built to her. You fawn over her; fawning is just not attractive. She, meanwhile, likes you and likes the attention you give her, but clearly feels guilty for not reciprocating your intense feelings and for "taking advantage of you".

I'm not going to tell you you have to cut her off completely, especially not permanently, but you do have to keep your distance, literally and figuratively. This co-dependence is bad for both of you. You both need to reset your boundaries, and back off until you can find yourselves again. If you do decide that cutting each other off is the best bet, do it right. Organise a time in the future to check in where each other is if you want to, but until then you stick with it completely.

Asking her if she "still hates you", by the way, was completely not cool. I have had people respond to criticism from me with accusations that I "hate" them, and that just made it clear that they weren't actually listening to me, and just want to throw blame around. When that doesn't just make me angry at them and want to throw up my hands and want to stop trying to help them, it makes me feel incredibly guilty - I didn't want to make them feel like I hate them, it isn't true, in fact it's the opposite. What's more, it's a completely useless thing to ask. It's that lawyer-speak question, for starters: "so when did you stop beating your wife?" "I never-" "JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!" And of COURSE she's going to say she doesn't hate you, so what's the point in asking a question you already know the answer to?
What you could have asked is "are you ready to talk to me?" or maybe "how do you feel about us now?" Those are useful questions, not accusatory and just plain wrong.
Never, ever bring up the word "hate" with her in this context again. EVER. Seriously dude, what the hell.

Regarding her depression and stuff, there is more coming, but basically, you cannot fix her. You can be her friend, or you can be her therapist. You can't be both. And considering your lack of training in the area, I recommend sticking with the former. You can support her without fawning over her, and you can help her without trying to be the only one doing so. Encourage her to seek help, and even talk to her family. But don't maintain this unhealthy relationship just because you think it's better than none at all - there's a not insignificant chance it really isn't.


Velaryon: I have a few ideas on what you could do. Some of them I would do, some of them might not be good, and most of them are not mutually exclusive.

1. Have a good talk with her brother. Tell him what happened, and your concerns, and ask for his opinion on what you should do. Make it clear that you're not asking for advice on how to get back with her, that you respect her decision, but you just want to know how to help her as a friend.

2. Write her a letter. Talk about how you met and your relationship and how you felt and feel about her. Be careful with how you word it: the goal is not to make her feel bad about breaking up with you, but to reminisce on how good it was that you had that time together. Tell her that she is cared for, that she deserves to be loved, that she is capable of loving, that she deserves good things. Tell her that you respect her decision but that you are there for her regardless. But do all this as a letter, a hard copy, snailmail piece of paper that she can carry around and look at whenever she wants.

3. Get into a bit of tough love. Tell her to talk to her doctor about the way the antidepressants make her feel - or not feel, as the case may be. Push her to get counselling, both general and specifically for grief - do some research for her, perhaps, on what resources are available to her. Do what you can to encourage her to get out and about - maybe challenge her to be able to tell you about one new, exciting, outdoor and/or social activity she's done every week. You said you want to give her a couple of weeks of space where you keep your distance completely, and I think that's fair; I would probably only suggest doing this option after that time.

But there is, as I said with Milo, something you need to remember: you cannot fix her. That is not your job, and thinking that it must be is going to be no good for either of you. You can be there for her and support her, but only to the extent that she is willing to allow you. You are not, cannot be, responsible for her state of mind and her well-being. Don't forget that.