My Latest big project! ( a big deal fighter fix)

[ngilop]

Hey everybody.

I have decided to work on a new Fighter fix. My old one was, as I named it, 'quick and dirty' and not really that great.. yeah it was good and 100% completely front loaded but still I thought I could do a little more.. and looking at some of the fighter fixes on this site such as Jiriku's and Grod the Giants many fixes and the design philosophy on what a fighter should be that Zeigander was lauded for (and mysteriously I myself was criticized for when I posted the same thing a few months [weeks maybe..?] before Zeigander's). I knew I could do better.

My first step was to take my old fighter fix and strip it bare... taking away every class ability and making them a fighter feat.

Then I though about versatility being the biggest offender of what makes fighters crap. and I was like " why not give them ToB stuff"? Well when I did that it seems that made the warblade and other ToB classes obsolete.. which my thought was 'well the ToB classes make the core classes obsolete..' but eh' Then I realized.. that’s a pretty lazy way to go; just slapping on some maneuver progression.

But the core idea was and still is genius! Give the fighter some useful abilities that he can call upon in times of need. Only I wanted to get away from the crappy maneuvers and their (once an encounter and no scaling at all-ness)

So I wanted abilities that scale to a fighters level, even if slightly, and I wanted them to be diversified enough that the fighter can pick up a whole slew of them.

With the abilities ranging from per encounter, to X per day, to passive abilities, a cool-down period, and maybe even other new ability unloaders. Of course these run the gamut of swift, move, immediate, standard and full round actions, with the abilities set up with various ways to be used and used up. I also wanted them to have different applications. From utility: to strikes, boosts, counters, mobility, assistance, retaliations, and sustain

I also wanted the fighter to have better feat management so I gave him some tactical feats as bonus feats, and the weapon focus line for free on 1 weapon sprinkled throughout his career. I do this because I think that there is one weapon that the Fighter has as his GO TO weapon.. the one that feels ' right' in his hands. While he can become a master of several weapons there is that one that the fighter is just darn good at.

I want the fighter to be able to represent what the class is about and with player design to be any warrior based archetype one wants

from the

• Slayer-the not a lot of defense, but pretty devastating offense
• Knight- the defensive focused power house
• Fencer - lightly armor finesse fighter who gets in some cheap shots and tricks to win
• Man-at-Arms- the 'stock' fighter. Generally about utility and generic combat ability.
• Commander- leader of men and armies
• Archer- the guy with a bow, ya know OHHH RHYMS IN THE HOUSE!
• Dervish- the dual wielding aficionado
• Cavalier- the mounted scary guy
• --and any other archetype I might be forgetting

So not only do I want fighters to be able to perform their given roles ( combat monsters of scary!) but also I want them to be able to fulfill other non-exclusive party roles as well. SO, not being the main healer for a Fighter for instance. Though I think allowing some healing boosts would be good. ( I think I already have a feat or 3 that does that)

I am probably going to be working on this for a long while and I Appreciate any and all feedback, helpful hints, suggestions, and constructive criticism.

Spoiler: CHANGE LOG:

Show

#1-Dec 6 2013 added in a handful of Class abilities and a score or so Disciplines.
#2-Dec 7 2013 reduced the number of Disciplines and added and edited some of them under Grod's suggestions.
#3-Dec 8 2013 added in a handful additional disciplines.
#4-Dec 9 2013 edited the table to make it simpler.
#5-Dec 14 2013 corrected the grammar in my intro post to make reading easier and more attratcive as per Sam Burke's suggestion.
#6-Dec 17 2013 gave some additional class abilities, lowered the disciplines known, changed up how disciplines are done.
#7-Dec 19 2013 added Warlord to class abilities.
#8-Dec 21 2013 put in the Archetypes of Disciplines and added in all of the Commander ones.
#9-Jan 2 2014 added the Fencer and Slayer disciplines.
#10-Jan 3 2014 added in the Archer disciplines.
#11-Jan 12 2014 added a dozen or so disciplines in.
#12-Jan 19 2014 removed bonus tactical feats, moved around some previous class abilities and toss a couple more in.
#13-Feb 4 2014 Added a new ability and inlcuded a couple out of combat Archery Disciplines.
#14-Feb 8 2014 added in the Cavalier disciplines.
#15-Feb 12 2014 added in the Dervish and Knight disciplines, followed Grod's and Djinn's suggestion of making everything with a cooldown have 1 static cooldown (except for obvious abilities like Fortitude).
#16-Feb 18 2014 Made all the 'main' archetypes have 15 disciplines each, so there would be equal diversity.

This post of course is just my introduction. I'll be posting the actual chassis for the fighter in my 2nd and reserving Disciplines (as I decided to call them) for the 3rd.

[ngilop]

Fighter

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	Disciplines
1st	+1	+2	+1	+0	Bonus Feat, Athletic Superiority	3
2nd	+2	+3	+1	+0	Bonus Feat, Imposing Force	4
3rd	+3	+3	+2	+1	Physical Prowess	6
4th	+4	+4	+2	+1	Bonus Feat, Momentum	8
5th	+5	+4	+2	+1	Shield Ally	9
6th	+6	+5	+3	+2	Bonus Feat, Hardy	11
7th	+7	+5	+3	+2	Mobile Combatant	13
8th	+8	+6	+3	+2	Bonus Feat, Instinctive Reflexes	14
9th	+9	+6	+4	+3	Deadly	16
10th	+10	+7	+4	+3	Bonus Feat	18
11th	+11	+7	+4	+3	Battle Perception	19
12th	+12	+8	+5	+4	Bonus Feat, Master of Many Styles	21
13th	+13	+8	+5	+4	Warlord	23
14th	+14	+9	+6	+4	Bonus Feat, Legendary Ability	24
15th	+15	+9	+6	+5	Call to Battle	26
16th	+16	+10	+6	+5	Bonus Feat, Make a Warrior out of You	28
17th	+17	+10	+7	+5	Avatar of War	29
18th	+18	+11	+7	+6	Bonus Feat, Veteran of a Thousand Wars	31
19th	+19	+11	+7	+6	Slice The Universe	33
20th	+20	+12	+8	+6	Bonus Feat, Indomnitability	34

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d12

Class Skills:
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Tactics) (Int), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis),Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis),Spot (Wis), Survival (Con),Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats
At 1st level, a Fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The Fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as Fighter bonus feats, combat feats, teamwork feats, and war cries. A Fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A Fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Disciplines {Ex or Su}:
From his Beginnings a Fighter gains access to Disciplines, special abilities that allow the Fighter to increase and display amazing battle prowess. A Fighter at first level choses a Discipline archetype, Archer, Cavalier Commander, Dervish, Fencer, Knight, or Slayer to be the primary Discipline. the 8th Discipline Man-at-Arms is not a valid choice. A fighter knows a number of different Disciplines, as shown on the table above. At least one-fourth of these must be from his Primary Archetype . The remainder may be drawn from the Man-at-Arms list, or from other Archetypes. A fighter must know at least two more Disciplines from his Primary Archetype than from any other Archetype."

Martial Aptitude {Ex}:
A Fighter tends to focus on a particular weapon that best suits his fighting style. This shows his ever increasing deadly efficiency in the particular weapon. He gains the equivalant of the named feats for that weapon (and only that weapon) at the levels indicated. 1st-Weapon Focus, 4th- Weapon Specialization, 6th- Greater Weapon Focus, 8th-Greater Weapon Specialization, 10th Weapon Mastery, 13th Weapon Supremecy. This is in addition to other weapons the Fighter may want to focus on, so he can for example get Weapon Supremecy for a 2nd weapon he can, but must do so at the minimum reqiuremnts as normal.

Athletic Superiority {Ex}: A Fighter relies solely on what his body can do. He counts all Jump checks as if he had run 20 feet. At 6th level the distance for his jump check is doubled and at 12th level it is tripled, and finally at 18th level quadrupled. At 7th level the Fighter penalty for accelerated tumbling is reduced to -5, at 14th level the fighter suffers no penalty. At 10th level the Fighter considers all falls as 15 feet shorter, at 20th level it increases to 30 feet shorter. A Fighter can at 9th level climb at his land speed as a move action, but suffers a -10 penalty while doing so.

Imposing Force {Ex}: The Fighter gains a +2 competance bonus to Intimidate and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases by 1 at every 6th level afterwards. If the Fighter successfully demoralizes a foe, the foe cowers for 1 round and then is shaken for 1 round. At 16th level Intimdate becomes a Terror effect for the Fighter.

Physical Prowess {Ex}: A Fighter gains a +1 bonus to any Str, Dex, or Con based skill at 3rd level, increasing by 1 for every 3rd level therafter. A Fighter also gains these bonuses when trying to sunder a force effect.

Momentum {Ex}: For every successful attack a Fighter has in an encounter he gains a +1 bonus to damage and a +1 dodge bonus to AC. These bonuses are lost if the Fighter misses two attacks in a row or when the encounter is over.

Shield Ally {Ex}: At 5th level, as an immediate action a Fighter can opt to absrop part of the damage dealt to an adjacent ally. Each time this ally takes damage from an attack before the Fighter's next turn he can take half the damage himself. The target takes the other half (rounded up) as normal, a Fighter can sheild an ally from a spell as well.

Hardy {Ex}: A Fighter is more durable than other classes. He gains a +4 bonus to his save against any spell, ability, or effect that would cause him to be stunned, dazed, paralyzes, staggered, petrified, or energy drained. Furthermore the fighter heals ability damage at a more rapid pace, healing 2 points of damaged ability score. increasing to 3 points at 16th level. In addition the Fighter becomes immune to death effects at 13th level, being dazed at 17th level, and staggered at 20th.

Mobile Combatant {Ex}: In the world of combat, speed determines the winner, and a skilled Fighter embraces this. Learning to deliver strikes swiftly and precisely even while on the move. Beginning at 7th level, a Fighter can make a full-round attack as a standard action. In addition at level 16 a Fighter gaisn the use of an additional standard action at his Initiative count -15. This standard action cannot but used to do a full attack, but only what is normally allowed with standard actions.

Instinctive Reflexes {Ex}: At 8th level a Fighter's ability to take advantage of openings in his opponents gaps in defense become preternatural. A Fighter may add one plus his wisdom modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity he can make per round.

Deadly {Ex}: As a master of combat and dealing death, the Fighter can score critical hits againts those that are normally immune, The fighter suffers a -4 penalty to the critical confirmation check on those that are normally immune to critical hits.

Battle Perception {Ex}: At 11th level, the Fighter gains True Seeing, as per the spell, regarding any foes he has successfully hit and/or damaged. The range is limited to 10 feet plus 5 feet for every 3rd Fighter level.

Legendary Ability {Ex}: A Fighter has nothing more than his own blood, sweat, and tears when accomplishing a given task. A Fighter can complete in 1 day what takes 20 men a month.

Call to Battle {Ex}: Once per encounter as a move action, the Fighter can give all allies (including himself) a full round action, that must be taken immediately.

Master of Many Styles {Ex}: The Fighter gain a number of special feats equal to his intelligence modifier plus 1 that he gains at the beginning of everyday. These feats must be ones the Fighter qualifies for, and the acquisition of these feats do not count as prerequisite feats for others. A Fighter must train for an hour to acquire these feats and they may be swapped out at the beginning of a new day.

Warlord {Ex}: The Fighter becomes an expert in the fine art of directing a battle, able to assess his foes with great skill and use that knowledge to guide his allies to victory. He can assess a single foe as a move action, a number of foes equal to his intelligence modifier+1 as a standard action or all foes as a full round action, and use that information to guide his allies in defeating the foe. The Fighter makes a Sense Motive check with a DC of 10 +foe’s base attack bonus + foe’s Charisma modifier. If successful he learns the target’s current and maximum hit points, base attack bonus, armor class, and total Fortitude, Reflex and Will saving throw bonuses. Any ally able to see and hear the Fighter gains a +2 bonus to attack and a bonus to damage rolls equal to half the Fighter's level against any target the he has assessed in the past 24 hours. If the Fighter fails the check, he cannot attempt to assess the same foe again for 24 hours.

Make a Warrior out of You {Ex}: A Fighter spends a day, training and giving speeches to any number of 1 HD beings. They gain a number of levels in the Warrior NPC class equal to 3 plus the Fighter's Intelligence modifier.

Avatar of War {Ex}: The Fighter has become a veritable battle god. His mere presence gives allies a +1 bonus to attacks as well as bring panic to his enemies. As a free action on his first round of combat in particular encounter the Fighter may attempt to unnerve his enemies, The Fighter rolls a d20 and his his level as a bonus to the result. If the Fighter has 15 or more ranks in intimidate add an addition +2 to the results. Opponents are forced to make a Will save, with the Fighters total result being the DC. If unsuccessful the oppoents are dazed for 1 round, beings immune to fear gain a +6 bonus to the check. Mindless beings are immune, suffering instead a -2 penalty to all actions for 1 round.

Veteran of a Thousand Wars {Ex}: The Fighter has been in combat too many times to count, he operates as if continuously under the effects of a Foresight spell.

Slice The Universe {Ex}: A Fighter skill with weapons and physical abilities are godlike. He can as a full round action tear a hole in the material plane that replicate the Gate spell, but only for travel purposes. The Fighter does not need to concentrate, but it only last 1 round plus 1 round for every 5th base attack bonus.

Indomnitibility {Ex}: At 20th level a Fighter no longer automatically fails his saving throws or attacks on a natural one, instead treat a natural one as a -10. In addition a Fighter is able to act as normal for 2 rounds when reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, provided that his body remains more or less intact, before he succumbs to death.

[ngilop]

Discipline List

Archer
Black the Sky: As a swift action the Fighter can cause every ranged attack to split into 2 during flight for 1 round plus 1 round for every 3rd level.. Use the same attack roll for all projectiles but at a -3 penalty. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes to enact a discipline again after this one ends.

Cautious Shooting: The Fighter no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks while threatened except when the opponent has a higher Base Attack Bonus or more than 4 hit die than the Fighter. A Fighter must be 7th level to select this discipline.

Cover Fire: The Fighter grants the ability to take the aid another combat action with ranged attacks. Both the target of the attack, and the ally to benefit from the aid another, must be in line of effect of the Fighter.

Meteor Shot: As a standard action, a Fighter can make one attack with a –4 penalty. If the attack hits, it inflicts damage normally and the target is subject to a bull rush or a trip maneuver using the attack roll as the combat maneuver check. The Fighter must decide which maneuver to attempt before making his attack roll.

Momentous Strike: If the Fighter moves at least 10 feet and makes a successful thrown weapon attack, he deals an extra 1d6 points of damage increases by 1d6 every 4th level. This extra damage is of the same type as the weapon and only affects one attack per round.

One Shot, One Kill: The Fighter may attempt to instantly kill his opponent. As 2 full-round actions make one attack If the Fighter successfully hits his opponent, the target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + one-half Fighter levels + your Wisdom modifier) or die. Creatures immune to critical hits take normal damage and are immune to the death effect. A Successful save take 1d4 points of damage for every 3rd level.

Peerless Vision This ability mimics clairvoyance, except the area must be within the Fighter's line of sight and effect and Peerless Vision only last 1 round. So a fight could use peerless vision to examine a distant hill top, but not the inside of a barn. A Fighter must be 4th level to select this discipline and must wait 3 minutes before enacting this discipline again.

Penetrating Shot: When a Fighter confirms a critical hit with a ranged weapon, the projectile pierces the target and can strike another creature in line behind it. The Fighter must be able to trace a line starting at his space and passing through both targets to make this additional attack. The secondary attack is made at a –4 penalty, in addition to any modifiers for added range. If this attack is also a critical hit, the bolt can continue to hit another target, but the penalties stack. A Fighter must be 8th level to select this discipline.

Preferred Target: As a move action the Fighter gains 1 damage per level on his next ranged attack. A Fighter can enact this discipline once per round.

Ranged Flanking: When the Fighter is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence. Normally, you can only flank enemies with melee weapons.

Ricochet: As a swift action the Fighter may, until the end of your turn, redirect a thrown weapon's momentum up to 90 degrees, allowing it to continue its path as if it were thrown in that new direction. Each time you do, you impose a -4 penalty on the weapon’s attack rolls and a -2 penalty on damage rolls. You may even recover from missed attacks this way: if a failed attack would hit a creature’s touch AC, it continues past the creature a distance of half its range increment, potentially rebounding off of a wall for another attempt to hit. All distance traveled, regardless of direction, counts toward the weapon’s range. You may attempt a number of redirections per attack equal to 1 plus your Wisdom modifier. At 15th level each redirection can be up to 180 degrees.

Sniper Training: As a full-round action the Fighter gains a +1 bonus to ranged attacks with projectile weapons and deals an additional amount of damage equal to the weapon's base damage, this base weapon damage increases at every 5th level (three times the base damage at level 10). As a free action the Fighter can make a spot check, if the spot check is higher than the targets AC, it is staggered for 1 round.

Sniper's Eye Without a good eye for judging distance, wind speed and movement of their opponents many a archer would be dead. The Fighter gains a +2 bonus to Spot checks, increasing by 1 every 4th level.

Trueshot: As a swift action, the Fighter gains a +2 insight bonus to all ranged attacks and every successful ranged attack deals double damage for 2 rounds plus one additional round for every 6th level. Like any damage multiple, these are additive with others, So a Fighter using a longbow who scored a critical hit would do X4 damage. A Fighter may not enact this disciple again for 3 minutes after it has ended.

Volley: A Fighter attacks an area 20 feet in diameter dealing weapon damageper itenerative attack plus 1 per Fighter level. Those caught in the area of effect can make a reflex save for half damage at DC 10+half Fighter level+Dexterity bonus. Those caught in the volley are also affected as if by the slow spell the round it was damaged and the round immediately following.

Cavalier
Animal Whisperer: The Fighter is able to probe the surface thoughts of one animal per round, getting simple instinctual thoughts form lower order creatures. The probe can continue on the same creature from round to round or can more on to other animals.

Attack Together: When making a successful attack when mounted the Mount gains a free attack on the target as well. The mount can only use this attack once per round.

Calm Animals: The Fighter can calm animals as a full round action. The effect is as per the spell calm animals, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the Fighter's level + the Fighter's Cha modifier. The Fighter can use this ability once a day for every 3rd level. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes to enact this discipline a second time.

Cavlier's Charge A Fighter who uses this discipline is able to at the end of a mounted charge, deal an additional 1d8 points of damage on his first attack, and he and his mount receive a +1 dodge bonus to their respective ACs for the remainder of the round. The extra damage is not multiplied for any reason, such as if the Fighter is wielding a lance or if he has the Spirited Charge feat. In addition to the bonus to his AC, the Fighter also receives a +1 bonus to all Ride checks he makes with his Mounted Combat feat until the beginning of the next round.

At 3rd level, and every 3rd level thereafter, the cavalier's charge ability deals an additional +1d8 points of damage and grants the Fighter and his mount an additional +1 AC and bonus to his Ride checks for the Mounted Combat feat, to a maximum of +7d8 damage and +7 dodge to AC and Ride at 18th level.

Expert Trainer: A Fighter learns to train mounts with speed and unsurpassed expertise. The Fighter receives a bonus equal to 1/2 his FIghter level whenever he uses Handle Animal on an animal that serves as a mount. In addition, he can reduce the time needed to teach a mount a new trick or train a mount for a general purpose in half by increasing the DC by +5. He can also train more than one mount at once, although each mount after the first adds +2 to the DC.

Indomitable Steed: A Fighter and his steed gain DR 5/— when mounted.

Mighty Charge: If the Fighter makes a successful charge attack he may do a bullrush, trip, or overrun as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Mounted Mastery: The Fighter ignores the armor check penalty when using the Ride skill. In addition The Fighter and the mount gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC when charging. (a total of +2 when the normal charge pentaly is factored in)

Relentless Steed: A Fighter’s mount does not reduce its speed when wearing heavy barding or carrying a heavy load. The Fighter may also reroll a Ride skill check or a saving throw made by the mount once per day, but must use the second roll even if it is worse. A Fighter must be 8th level to select this discipline. This ability may be used one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter.

Resolute Mount: Once per day when a Fighter's Mount is dealt lethal damage, he may convert the damage from the attack to non-lethal damage.

Ride Like the Wind: The Fighter’s Mount gains a +5 bonus to their move speed, this increases by +5 at every 4th level.

Steadfast Mount: the Fighter's mount gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saves, but only while the Fighter is mounted on it or adjacent to it. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd.

Soul of the Rider: The limit of the Fighter not being able to perform a full attack if his mount moves more than 5' in a round no longer applies. Note that this does not grant the ability to perform a full attack on a charge. A Fighter must be 10th level to select this discipline.

Tactical Charge: The Fighter can twist and wind his course as he performs a mounted charge. He may make a single 90 degree turn during the course of the charge. All other normal restrictions on charging still apply, and the Fighter must have line of sight to his target at the beginning of the charge.

Unhindered Ride: The Fighter’s Mount ignores the penalty for moving through difficult terrain, in addition the mount gains a bonus to Balance checks when charging or running over difficult terrain, equal to half the ranks the Fighter has in Ride.

Commander
Assail: A level a Fighter learns to direct his allies to overwhelm a foe’s defenses, forcing the enemy to divide its attention among multiple targets. The Fighter selects one foe he can see. If that foe is threatened by three of the Fighter’s allies, it is considered flanked for the first melee attack each ally makes in the ally’s round.

Back-Up Plan: The Fighter grants benefits to his allies once per encounter, each ally gains the ability to reroll any one attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw. If an ally does choose to reroll one of these die rolls, the ally must take the second result even if it is worse than the original die roll. An ally may only make one reroll from a specific Fighter's backup plan talent in a given day, even if that Fighter uses this talent multiple times during the day.

Battlefield Presence: As a swift action the Fighter can give his ally the benefit of one feat he knows, the allies retain knowledge of this feat for the reaminder of the encounter. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes to enact this discipline again. A Fighter must be 6th level to select this discipline.

Born Leader: This Discipline adds half a Fighter’s class level to his Leadership score, for purpose of determining the total number of followers he gains from the Leadership feat (but NOT to determine the level of his cohort) . If this bonus causes the Fighter’s Leadership score to be 26 or higher, the Fighter gains further followers. To determine how many additional followers above the normal maximum the Fighter receives, subtract 15 from the Fighter’s Leadership score, and compare this new number to the Leadership chart to determine additional followers gained. A Fighter must be 9th level to select this discipline.

Captivating Speech: Once per day as a full-round action, the Fighter can make a captivating speech that acts as a mass suggestion spell. Creatures with less HD than the Fighter do not gain a save against this effect, and those with equal or greater HD suffer a –4 penalty on their Will save. The DC to resist this effect is 16 + the Fighter‘s Charisma modifier. A Fighter must be 14 level to select this Discipline.

Champion: As a move action the Fighter gives all allies a bonus to attack equal to his Charisma modifier and to damage equal to half his level on their next attack. A Fighter can only use this discipline once an encounter.

Commanding Voice: The Fighter can cause awe, hesitation, and doubt in those they speak to. As a standard action cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 30 feet, able to see and hear the Fighter, and able to pay attention to him. If the opponents fail their Will save DC 10 +1/2 Fighter levels + Charisma modifier, they stand quietly taking no other actions, for 3 rounds. While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any successful attack or any damage dealt ends the fascination, while an obvious threat such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, gives a +4 bonus to the save. A Fighter must be 5th level to select this discipline and must wait 3 minutes after he uses this ability to enact it again, and can only do so once in a particular encounter.

Countering Tactics: At Fighter learns to counter the advantages foes gain by superior planning, morale, or position. Each round of the countering tactics he makes a Knowledge (Tactics) skill check as a free action. The Fighter compares this to every foe he can see and has line of effect to. If the Fighter’s Knowledge check hits a DC of 10 + target’s hit dice or level, that foe gains no benefit from morale bonuses, luck bonuses, cannot flank; and suffers a –4 penalty to all attacks of opportunity made. A creature the Fighter fails to affect with a use of countering tactics remains immune to any further use of the ability by the same Fighter for 24 hours.

Cry Havoc!: As a standard action, a Fighter may direct their allies to attack a specific target, overwhelming the enemy. The Fighter designates a particular target, and until the end of the Fighter’s next turn, allies can now score a critical hit, even if the target is normally immune, and receive a +4 bonus to confirm the results of a critical hit. Allies do not recive the +4 if the target is normall immune to critical hits.
The Fighter can use this discipline a number of times per day equal to 1+ his Intelligence modifier, gaining additional uses every 6th level and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Impressive: Once per round as a free action, the Fighter can make an Intimidate check to demoralize a foe who has just been struck for damage by the Fighter.

Inspiration During battle, the Fighter exhorts his comrades with words of courage and determination. This discipline affects all allies within a 30-foot radius centered on the warlord, and bestows 1d6 temporary hit points, plus 1d6 additional points for every two Fighter levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on) These temporary hit points last until the encounter ends, or until they are removed through damage. A Fighter may inspire a number of times per day equal to 1 plus his Charisma modifier. This is a standard action and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The Fighter can choose whether or not to include himself in this effect.

Inspire Heroism: Once per encounter the Fighter can, as a move action, grant allies a +2 morale bonus to AC, Attacks, and Saves for 2 rounds. A Fighter must be 4th level in order to select this discipline. The bonus increases by 1 at 12th and again at 20th level.

Quality: Knowledge (Nobility) becomes a class skill for the Fighter, in addition he gains a +2 competence bonus to Knowledge (Nobility) and Diplomacy checks.

Rally: At Fighter can rally flagging forces, giving them renewed hope and endurance to carry on and win victory. A rally affects all allies in a 30-foot radius burst. Each ally may also make one saving throw against any one effect it currently suffers which could have been prevented with a successful saving throw (with the same save DC as the original saving throw), and on a successful save the effect ends. A Fighter may rally once per day plus a number of additional times equal to Charisma modifier. At 9th and again at 18th level, the Fighter may rally an additional time per day.

Voice of Authoroity: A Fighter gains a +1 bonus to Intimidate and Diplomacy plus an additional +1 per every 6th level. In addition all warcries last 1 additional round.

Dervish
100 Blows: This discipline, which is activated as a move action, gives the Fighter Haste for 1 round per Fighter level. The Fighter must wait 3 minutes after this has ended to enact it again. A Fighter must be 6th level to take this discipline

Avoidance: Starting A Fighter's display of speed discourages his foes. Each time a foe misses him with an attack, the Fighter gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This bonus lasts until the start of his next turn.

Deadly Defense: When a Fighter makes a full-attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. A Fighter must be 7th level to select this discipline.

Deft Dance: As a move action the fighter gains the benefits of this discipline. Gaining a +1 dodge bonus to AC per 2 fighter levels and an additional attack with his off hand weapon every round at his full base attack bonus (with a -5 penalty). This lasts 1 round plus 1 round per Fighter level. A fighter must wait 3 minutes after this discipline has ended to enact it again.

Doublestrike: As a standard action a Fighter make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally.

Equal Opportunity: When a Fighter makes an attack of opportunity, he may attack once with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. A Fighter must be 9th level to select this discipline.

Evasive: As a standard action the Fighter can gives himself a +2 Dodge bonus to AC as well as a +1 bonus to Reflex Saves. This increases to +4 dodge to AC and +2 to reflex at 7th level and +6 dodge to AC and +3 to reflex at 14th level. This lasts 1 round plus 1 round for every 3rd Fighter level. A Fighter may not enact this discipline again for 3 minutes.

Expert Acrobat: A Fighter no longer suffers armor check penalties on balance, climb, move silently, or tumble checks. A Fighter must be 7th level to select this discipline.

Fleet Footed: A Fighter can take 10 on Balance and Tumble checks even while distracted or threatened, and gains a +1 bonus on Balance and Tumble checks plus an additional +1 for every fifth Fighter level.

Speed of the Wind:As a swift action the Fighter gains a bonus of +10 feet to his movement speed (only 1 type of movement can be selected) this round.

Stunning Speed: Once per day per level, the Fighter can run by enemies so fast he leaves them unable to act. When he uses this ability, he moves as far as he could normally move with a run action, but he can control his movement and does not need to move in a straight line. During this run, his movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Every opponent the Fighter comes adjacent to during the run must make a Will save (DC 10 + Fighter’s level + Dexterity modifier) or be stunned for one round. Each use of this ability lasts for only one round.

Sudden Action: A Fighter can change his place in the initiative order, moving higher in the count by a number less than or equal to half his class level. The Fighter can declare the use of this ability at the start of any round, before any other character takes an action. A Fighter must be 9th level to select this Discipline.

Tempest: As a swift action, this allows the Fighter to make attack of opportunities againts opponents who miss him in combat. This does not give any additional attacks of opportunity. This discipline lasts 1 round per Fighter level. A fighter cannot enact this discipline again for 3 minutes after it has ended. A Fighter must be 10th level to take this discipline.

Trailblazer: A Fighter is capable of traversing great distances quickly without the aid of magic. Once per day a Fighter can run 20 miles per hour for up to 3 minutes per level. The character cannot stop and then restart during this run; once he has stopped, he is done. Once the character stops, he is fatigued until he gets an hour of complete rest. The fatigue from this ability ignores fatigue immunity.

Walk on Water: Once per day the Fighter can traverse any horizontal liquid surface without actually touching it. This allows him to travel across the top of water, acid, lava or any other liquid unharmed. Once the character has entered the water, he may do nothing but double move or run each round, otherwise the ability fails and he falls into the liquid. Other than this restriction, the character can remain on the liquid for up to 3 rounds per level.

Fencer
Befuddling strike: A Fighter upon a successful attack causes his opponent to suffer a -2 penalty to attacks for 1 round. This penalty increases by one every 6th level, and can only be used once per round on a single opponent.

Better Lucky than Dead: Once per day, a Fighter gains +2 bonus as a luck bonus to one skill check, attack roll, or saving throw. The Fighter can do this once per day plus an additional time per day equal to every 3 level. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes before enacting this disciplie again.

Dirty Fighter: Add Bluff to the list of Fighter skills. Once per encounter you can re-direct an attack against you to an opponent that is adjacent to you.

Distracting Shove: The Fighter punches, kicks, elbows, or otherwise shoves an opponent, knocking him off balance. He then makes a touch attack against one foe who he has successfully damaged with an attack. If successful, the target suffers a –2 circumstance penalty to Armor Class and Reflex saves for 1 round. Using this Discipline is a swift action and the penalties increase by 1 every 6th level.

Feinting Flair: While feinting, a Fighter may make a check, as a free action, equal to his level plus his charisma bonus. The fighter gets a +1 bonus for every itinerative attack after 1 he gets, as well as a +2 if he has more than 5 ranks in Bluff, and an addition +2 if he has more than 5 ranks in Perform (Act). If this check surpasses his target's AC, the Fighter may add double his Charisma bonus in addition to his normal stat bonus to the damage he deals on that attack. A Fighter can only use this ability once a round.

Fencing: A Fighter not only uses his weapon for killing others, but for protecting himself. As such, he knows well how to use his weapon defensively to parry enemy attacks. The Fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class when wielding only one weapon and only in his main hand without a shield of any kind. This bonus increases to +2 at level 7, and +3 at level 13 and finally to +4 at level 19.

Hindering Attack: A Fighter may cause an opponent successfully attacked to take no attacks of opportunity for the round. A Fighter can only benefit from this discipline once per round.

Low Blow: Starting at 5th level a Fighter learns to hit foes where it counts. When a dirty fighter successfully hits a foe that is flat-footed, That foe is flat-footed for the rest of the round. Ranged attacks can count as a low blow only within 30 feet.

Master Parry: A Fighter may use any weapon to deflect ranged or melee attacks. This ability functions exactly as the feat Deflelt Arrow, except that the Fighter rolls his weapon damage adds half his Fighter levels and subtracts that from the attack (this cannot reduce an attack to below 0). This discipline works when wielding only one weapon and only in his main hand without a shield of any kind.

Positioning Attack: A Fighter successfully damaging an opponent may move up to 10 feet without provoke attacks of opprtunity,as long as the Fighter ends his movement adjacent to the same opponent.

Shrewd Defense: A Fighter as a swift action can add his base Will save -1 to his AC as a competance bonus for 1 round per 2 Fighter levels. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the Fighter is flat-footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized. A Fighter cannot enact a discipline again for 3 minutes after this one ends.

Shrewd Strikes: A Fighter, as an immediate action, adds 1d4 points of extra damage to Attacks of Opportunity. The damage increases by 1d4 at 7th and again by 1d4 at 14th level. A Fighter may only enact this discipline once a round.

Sneaky Maneuver: A Fighter can take a -4 penalty to his attack to perform a trip, disarm, or sunder attempt as a free action if the attack is successful. This still provokes attacks of opportunity unless the Fighter has the relevant feat.

Sucker Punch: A Fighter knows just what to do to catch his foe off guard. The first attack staggers an opponent, a DC 10+ 1/2 Fighter level+Int modifier to negate, this attack can only ever effect an opponent once per encounter. Also he can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action once per round. A Fighter must be 10th level to select this discipline.

Sword and Fist: A Fighter is treated as having the Improved Unarmed Attack feat. When making a successful attack with their weapon, they may make an unarmed attack against a creature. This ability does not function with Cleave or Great Cleave. Any creature struck with a Cleave Feat is not subject to the bonus unarmed attack. A Fighter must not be wileding any weapons in his off-hand to use this Discipline.

Knight
Armored Grace: Choose one type of armor, such as a breastplate. The Fighter increases the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor by one when she wears it. The Fighter may take this ability multiple times, but each time it applies to a new type of armor. In addition at level 5 a fighter has no maximum dexterity for the particular armor.

Break The Line: Once per encounter the Fighter may ignore an immobilization effect. The Fighter must move at least 10 feet and attack a target in order to use this discipline.

Calmness of Thought: As a swift action the Fighter makes a will save with a bonus equal to half his class levels against DC 10+the number of negative contidtions affecting him. If successful, the Fighter ignores the conditions for 1 round.

Cheat Death: The Fighter return to life the morning after he died, with one quarter of his maximum hit points and all of his ability are considered just used. A Fighter can only benefit from this discipline once a month.

Colossal Stamina: The Fighter gainds legendary stamina. Exhaustion is reduced to Fatigued and the Fighter suffers Fatigue for half the duration as normal. The Fighter also recovers from Fatigue in twice the time. Fatigue gained from the reduction of exuasted is not halved. A Fighter must be 9th level to select this discipline.

Fearless: For 1 round per Fighter level the Fighter is immune to the effects of the shaken, frightened, or panicked conditions, as well as any ability or spell with the fear descriptor. A Fighter activates this as an immediate action and cannot use this ability for 3 minutes after its duration has ended. A Fighter must be 7th level to gain this discipline.

Fortitude: As a swift action the Fighter becomes immune to Hit Point damage. All other forms of damage (ability score loss, negative levels, etc) can affect the warrior normally, as can non damaging effects. This lasts for 1 round plus a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifer. A fighter may not enact this discipline for 24 hours after its duration has ended. A fighter must be 16th level to select this Discipline.

Guardian Glare: Opponents suffer a -2 penalty to attacks against allies adjacent to the Fighter. This penalty increases by 1 for every 4th level.

Halt: Whenever the Fighter deals damage to an opponent with an Oppurtunity Attack, that opponent's move action is immediately canceled. They may still make another move action for that round but only at half speed.

Heroic Stamina: When the Fighter reduces an opponent to zero or less hit points he heals for 1 Point plus 1 point per 4th level. A Fighter must be 5th level to take this discipline.

One Man Army: When damaged by an enemy who has fewer Hit Points than the Fighter, he ignores an amount of damage equal to half his Fighter levels

Resistant: This discipline allows the Fighter to innure himself to the ravages of the elements. He grants himself acid, cold, disease, elecricity, fire, poison, and sonic resistance (5). This increases to resistance (10) at 12th level and to resistance (15) at 18th. To activate this requires an immediate action and this discipline lasts for 10 minutes plus 1 minute per fighter level. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes after the discipline has ended to enact it again. A Fighter must be 6th level to take this discipline.

Shielded Fortress: At 10th level, The Fighter's armor and shield cannot be disarmed or sundered. As a move action he can provide evasion to all adjacent allies until the beginning of your next turn, and as an immediate action the Fighter can provide evasion or mettle to a single adjacent ally against one attack.

Sorcery Overpower: The Fighter can shrug off baleful magical effects just as well as he can physical attacks. He may ignore up to three plus his Fighter level of spell levels per day. The spell is not dispelled or negated, but simply has no effect on the Fighter character. He must choose to use this ability before he rolls his saving throw against the spell. The Fighter must be aware of the spell to use this ability, So the fighter can use this against a fireball, or dominate spell, but not a scry spell.

Unfinished Glory: A Fighter can continue to fight while disable or dying without penalty, up to -9 HP. The Fighter is Fatigued for 3 rounds atfer being brought back to 1 or more hit point, the Fatigue from this ability ignores any fatigue immunity.

Slayer
Adrenaline Rush: The Fighter gains a +10 feet bonus speed, fast healing 1, and a +2 perfection bonus to Strength, Dexterity, qnd Constitution. Activating this Discipline is a swift action, lasts for 3 rounds + a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifer. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes after adrenaline rush has ended to activate it again.

Aggressive Attack: As a swift action, the Fighter gains double the base weapon damage on all his attack rolls for 1 minute per level. (a medium long sword get +1d8, a medium dagger gets +1d4, etc). A fighter must wait 12 minutes after the duration has ended to enact this discipline again. This ability stacks with the Weapon Mastery feat, so the medium Longsword would be doing 4d8 points of damage.

Barrage: A Fighter advances in his ability to attack all his foes. A Fighter can use his Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action and if he uses it as a full-round action he can make a second attack on all threatened foes.

Bloodlust: Starting at 5th level the anger a Fighter feels shows when he draws blood on his foe. After he damages a foe with a melee attack he gains a +2 morale bonus to all other attack rolls, damage, saves, and AC vs. the opponent he damaged and he in turn gets a -2 to all other foes in combat. This bonus increases by +2 every 5th level afterwards, but the -2 from other foes stays the same. In addition at the start of every turn after the Fighter damages a foe he must make a Will save at DC = 10 + his opponent’s HD. If he fails his save he must continue to attack that round. If something stops him from attacking for a round he need not make the save to stop.

Brutal Beating: A Fighter can forgo dealing weapon damage on a successful attack ( He still deals his Strength or Dexterity bonus if applicaple) to cause his opponent to be Nauseated a Fortitude save of (DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter levels + Fighter's Strength modifier) lessens it to sickened. This lasts 1d4 rounds increasing by 1 round at 12th level and again by 1 at 18th level. A Fighter mustbe 6th level to select this discipline.

Brute Force: The Fighter may substitute his melee attack roll (with a -4 penalty) for his ranks in disable device or open locks. Furthermore when attempting to sunder an item he ignores hardness equal to his Strength modifier. When attempting to sunder a force effect treat as if the Fighter cast the disintegrate spell on it. His effective caster level equals his Basic Attack Bonus. This ability may also be used to bring down any layer of a prismatic wall or prismatic sphere. The Fighter remains subject to the possible effects of those spells.

Catching Grasp: If an oppoenent uses a 5 foot step or withdraw action to disengage combat with the fighter, the fighter can make a grapple check to immobilize the target.

Deep Strength: The Fighter call upon some reserves of strength within himself and gain a +6 insight bonus to a single Strength check, such as to batter down a door or break an iron bar. A Fighter can do this as a free action but only once a round and must wait 3 minutes before enacting this discipline again.

Drive Back Upon successfully attacking an opponent the fighter may make a bullrush attempt as a free action. A successful bullrush pushes the target back 5 feet. A Fighter must be 3rd level to select this discipline.

Giant Slayer: When attacking an oppoenent that has more Hit Points than the Fighter. The fighter deals an adddition 2 points of damage per Fighter level on a successful attack. This damage is of the same type as the weapon.

Greater Adrenaline Rush: The Fighter gains a +10 feet bonus speed, fast healing 1, and a +4 perfection bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Activating this Discipline is a sswift action, lasts for 3 rounds + a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifer. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes after greater adrenaline rush, has ended to activate it again. This discipline replaces adrenaline rush.

Mighty Strike: As a swift action the Fighter's next attack has its critical threat ranged increased by a further 4 points and deals an addition 1d6 points of damage per every 4th fighter level. A fighter may not enact this Discipline again for another 3 minutes.

Murderous: The Fighter may make a coup de grace as a standard action

Titan Swing: As a standard action the Fighter makes one attack at his full base attack bonus to all enemies adjacent to him. If successfully damaged the enemies are staggered for 1 round.

Weapon of Legends: A Fighter deals weapon damage as if the weapon has increased one size category.

Man-at-Arms
-soon-
Battlesense: A Fighter gains Uncanny Dodge at 3rd level, Improved Uncanny Dodge at 8th level. In addition at 11th level the Fighter can never be caught by surpise in combat.

Battle Focus: As a swift action the Fighter gains a +1 bonus to his attack rolls this round. This bonus increases to +2 at 7th and to +3 at 14th level.

Blurring Speed: As a swift action the Fighter gains an extra move action this round.

Confidence: The Fighter gains a +1 bonus to saves versus charm, compulsion and fear effects. This increases by +1 for every 5th level.

Demoralizing Blow: Once per encounter a Fighter can forgo dealing damage upon a successful attack. All enemies within 60 feet gain a –1 penalty to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear effects until the end of the encounter. These penalties remain in place even if a target moves out of range, the penalty increases by 1 every 5th level.

Ebb and Flow: The fighter ignores the first Attack of Opportunity against him in an encounter due to his own movements.

Footwork: The quickness of a Fighter is unmatched. Replace the 5 foot step action with a 10 foot step action. a Fighter must be 11th level to select this discipline.

Heroic Effort: As a swift action the fighter gains a bonus to his next skill check, or as an immediate action to his save throw, equal to half his level. A Fighter must wait 3 minutes to use this discipline again. A Fighter must be 7th level to select this discipline.

Judging Strike: A Fighter's first attack that successfully damages in a particular encounter allows the fighter knowledge of the foe he is facing. The target's Hit Die, and AC is revealed to the fighter. A Fighter must be 4th level to select this discipline.

Keen Senses: The Fighter gains a bonus to a Spot or Listen checks this round equal to half his Fighter levels. Use this discipline as a swift action.

Leap Back: As an free action, even if the Fighter have already moved this round, he can leap back up to 15 feet after making an attack. This leap does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A Fighter can only use this discipline once a round.

Martial Speed: The Fighter gains an additional attack this at his highest attack bonus. This extra attack stacks with haste effects. A Fighter must be 14th level to select this Discipline.

Opportunist: Once per Round a Fighter may make an attack ( at a -4 penalty) against an opponent who has just been successfully damaged. A Fighter must be 8th level to take this Discipline.

Quick Retrieval: The Fighter can produce anything from his pack or anything he has stowed (unless the DM rules it is too inaccessible), including a weapon, as a free action. A Fighter may only use this discipline once a round.

Rupture Magic: When the Fighter strikes a foe or object with a successful weapon attack, as a free action you may attempt to break magic effects on the target. This acts as a targeted dispel from a dispel magic spell, except the check is 1d20 + the Fighter's base attack bonus. A Fighter must be 7th level to select this discipline.

Stalking Mastery: This discipline gives the Fighter a bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks equal to his base Will save.

Sudden Strike: If a Fighter deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, plus an additional 1d6 for every 3rd level to opponents who are denied their dexterity bonus to AC. This damage is not multiplied on critical hits.

Surprise Attack: The Fighter gains a +1 luck bonus to all saving throws and AC during surprise rounds and when otherwise unaware of an attack. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels afterwards. A Fighter must be 3rd level to select this discipline.

Taunt: As a standard action a Fighter can force all within 30 feet to focus their attacks, abilities, and spells on him. An Will save at DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter Levels + Charisma Modifier overcomes. Mindless creatures are immune to this discipline. For every 7th rank of intimidate the Fighter has the DC is increased by 1. Those successfully taunted do their best to rush and engage the fighter in combat to the best of their abilities. Melee will close in regardless of what dangers they put themselves in and ranged will focus the Fighter regardless of their other circumstances. Spellcasters must have the Fighter as a viable target for a spell if not they close in for melee.

Warmaster: The fighter gets a +1 bonus on opposed Grapple, disarm, trip, sunder, bullrush, overrun, feint, and knockback attempts for every 5th level

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I could critique what you have posted here...but before I do, do you have an estimate on the amount of time before you have some sample Disciplines posted?

[ngilop]

yeah. I have some up by tomorrow afternoon.. I literally spent 45 minutes trying to figur eout the formula I needed for the Disciplines

and about 3 hours going over my first post looking for spelling errors and other grammatical aerroers ( well that were not intentional) So im a bit blarghed in regards to typing much up for the rest of the night.

this is like super ultra alpha stage right now, so keep that in mind.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alright.

So my initial thought is that you've given the Fighter more feats. That's...not a good way to fix the Fighter, in my mind. Feats still aren't class features, nor appropriate substitutes. But that's less of an issue.

With the abilities ranging from per encounter, to X per day, to passive abilities, a cool-down period, and maybe even other new ability unloaders. And of course these running the gamut of Swift, move, immediate, standard and full round actions.

With the abilities set up with various ways to be used and used up. I also wanted them to have different applications. From utility, to strikes, boosts, counters, mobility, assistance, retaliations, and sustain

THIS is what concerns me greatly. 83 separate abilities with different uses/methods of use/mechanics/cool-downs/etc would create possibly the single most book-keeping intensive class I've ever even heard of. I'll reserve judgment until I see the Disciplines themselves, but I'm serious wary.

[Grod_The_Giant]

THIS is what concerns me greatly. 83 separate abilities with different uses/methods of use/mechanics/cool-downs/etc would create possibly the single most book-keeping intensive class I've ever even heard of. I'll reserve judgment until I see the Disciplines themselves, but I'm serious wary.

Yeah, this. Not to mention that it's creating a huge workload for yourself-- you're going to need to write more than a hundred different abilities just to have sufficient choices-- and probably more like 150-200. If you want my recommendation, I'd drop it down to ~15-20 abilities gained over the 20 levels, with enough scaling to keep low-level things useful throughout.

Also, how are these going to be balanced? I assume that there will be some sort of discipline level system?

[ngilop]

I know this might be a bit more paper work than is usual for a fighter but then i also think how many martial maneuvers are there in the ToB or how many spells are there? probably a couple thousand if you really took the time to count all those spells up.

Right now I have 125 Disciplines that i just jotted down last night. With a few more days thought I might have upwards of another 50 or so.

Im sorry that I did not get to this ealier. my cable went out untill 3 15-ish today or else i would have started much ealier.

while I guess you could probably say " all disciplines are just feats that look cool' id point out ToB manuevers and say "same diff" I am trying my best to keep away from doing just that, and trying to plop in some thing that are the equivalent of stand alone class abilities.. Like Cavlier's Charge for instance.

again. this is the first big project that I am putting up on GiTP forums knowing full well the type of repsonses im mostly going to get. SO you will have to bear with me on this as I change some things here adn there to better make the Fighter into what I envision a 3rd ed Fighter should be.

[Zman]

Wow, IMO this fighter fix is going to become way too bloated. Citing all of the TOB maneuvers and spells as justification for hundreds of options for a fighter isn't appropriate. Spells have a wide range of possible effects over ten levels whereas melee is much more specific. The difficulty you would face in creating said disciplines, balancing them, tiring them, and making them of roughly equal value is probably outside if the realm if viability.

Maybe 20 Disiplines chosen from 50-80? Would be more reasonable.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I know this might be a bit more paper work than is usual for a fighter but then i also think how many martial maneuvers are there in the ToB or how many spells are there? probably a couple thousand if you really took the time to count all those spells up.

Here's the major important difference though:

All spells have the same structure, and they all have specific uses, making it relatively easy to narrow down which one you want at a given time. On a per-day basis a Wizard will have at most about 50 spells he can actually cast (although he knows more), and of those 50 not all will be immediately applicable or even useful. Thus it's relatively easy to track, once you've chosen your spells.

Tome of Battle has a few basic formats of maneuvers: Strikes, boosts, stances, and counters. These all follow similar rules across the board, making it simple to track what you're using at any one time: you have one stance, maybe a boost, you can make one strike per turn, and, if it's NOT your turn, you worry about Counters (and that's about it). You rarely have to think about multiple options at any one time: on your turn you figure out Strikes/Boosts, on other turns you think about Counters, and every now and then you change Stances. Actually not that complicated, although you have a lot of options. You also have a maximum of about 12 options (and 4 stance options) at any one time, and that's if you're a Swordsage: decision making is actually pretty fast and straightforward, in my experience.

What I see here is a large list of, effectively, class features, many of which can be active at once, some of which are passive benefits, and most of which involve numerical increases, sometimes with durations attached. I'm not going to speak for everyone, but I know I would never allow this class at my table, because I know that both I as a DM and my player as the player of the class would always be forgetting the character's bonuses, capabilities, and so forth.

It is indeed looking like it would be the single most book-keeping intensive class I've ever seen. That's several huge points to its detriment.

again. this is the first big project that I am putting up on GiTP forums knowing full well the type of repsonses im mostly going to get. SO you will have to bear with me on this as I change some things here adn there to better make the Fighter into what I envision a 3rd ed Fighter should be.

That's fine. What do you envision it as, by the way? Because the forums are here to help. We're sometimes a bit brutal on things that aren't heading in a good direction, but most of us are willing to try to help you get things on track.

Currently this class is heading in a bad direction. There's a reason that the spell system, martial maneuver system, and so forth exist: once something gets this complicated, you need to simplify. Simplicity == playability to a large extent.

A mantra I believe all homebrewers should follow is "simplify, simplify, simplify." Simplify your work down to the point where it unravels, and then build it back up to the simplest version that accomplishes what you're trying to accomplish. That's your perfect balance of simplicity and complexity: it does what you want in the fastest, easiest-to-use fashion possible.

[ngilop]

Hmm, allright I guess I can trim it down to a more manageable number.

What are your thoughts about the Disciplines I have up already?

what do I envision a Fighter, well a Combat specialist to be short and for the long. and imma try to do this in the PhB style of fluff-ation

Fighters are the backbone of nearly every military in existence. They patrol frigid ice caverns of the artic, march through the decorated dwarven halls, and stand firm at the gates of a castle. As a Fighter's power grows, he learns to use his favored weapon more efficiently than any other fighting class, parrying, blocking, disarming with an ease borne of dedicated training and skill. Eventually he gains abilities that are almost magical, even though they are no more than the product of his legendary battle prowess.
Fighters can be noble heroes, ruthless mercenaries, gritty veterans of war, and vile bandits. All that unites them is skill at arms, and the willingness to defeat their foes with blood and steel. Many fighters are local heroes and figures of romance in their homelands and the subject of their fair share of bardic song. Fighters often rise to positions of rulership, becoming barons, duke, mercenary captains, brigand kings, and warlords.

A Fighter is a dedicated warrior, able to endure more damage than any other class, A Fighter may use any weapon and wear any armor, but is most effect when clad in their choice armor and welding their favored weapon. He should always make maximum use of his abilities and strengths, fighting with either weapon and shield, a two-handed weapon, mounted on horseback with a lance, equipped with a bow, or dual wielding. The Fighter has little else to compliment him, and depend son his fighting skills for survival.
That is not to say a fighter is somehow less useful or valuable than a spellcaster, for few enemies can manage spellcasting while facing a competent fighter in close combat. A Fighter has no need to dole out limited spells or supernatural abilities, or hoard his resources. If he has any hope of overcoming a foe, he must often plow directly into combat and keep attacking as long as he breathes.

Fighters set forth on quests for numerous reasons. many are members of guilds, or orders that seek to protect a particular lord or land, sending forth their members to face enemies wherever they are found. Younger fighters often set forth to prove themselves, hoping to perform acts worthy of song and glory. Older fighters often seek an opportunity to make their fortune or carve out a small empire in some section of wilderness. Some fighters desire nothing more than the next opponent against which (or whom) to test themselves, and constantly wander in search of the ultimate challenge to their skills.

Many question groups seek out a fighter as soon as possible. Though smaller parties often prefer some other warrior class that can fill more than one role, such as a paladin or ranger, the larger the group gets, the more likely it is to need at least one dedicated fighter.

The most common deity worshiped by fighters are gods of war, battle, strength, bravery, slaughter, and others of that ilk. Some fighters are extremely devout, which is unsurprising when you consider they constantly risk their lives in direct combat. A fighter does not draw any of his power form a deity, however, and an agnostic fighter is just as determined to survive as his religious brethren.

Fighters usually begin training as children, although their training may well come form their parents or a family friend rather than an established fighting school. In the rougher parts of the world, the life of a fighter comes naturally to all those who do not seek other professions. The constant threat of wolves, spiders, orcs, and skeletons define the early years of such fighters.
In more civilized lands, many children strive to become fighters when they grow up. Many sign up for a stint in the local guard or use their income to train at an academy of arms. after a year of two of hard training, facing local drunks and thugs, as well as perhaps the occasional combat in real skirmishes or even open battle, these fighters are often no less hardened or dangerous than those who grew up in constant danger.

Fighters are a critical element to many questing groups, for no other class is able to survive the punishment a fighter can, A fighter who has mastered his skill can be worth his weight in gold, for not only can he hold foes at bay he can keep them focused away from the other members of the party. Often the fighter becomes the lynchpin of a questing group.
Townsfolk tend to be cautious of fighters. Many commoners who are threatened with violence assume that because a fighter is good at fighting he must like it, and thus he is part of the problem with the world. This attitude frequently changes, however, once the commoner has been saved from some threat by the fighter's stalwart blade.

Fighters can be of any alignment. Good fighters sometimes defend the downtrodden, hunt down and fight evil, or use their might of arms to defend their homelands. Neutral fighters seek positions that give them the most profit and security. While evil fighters take what they want with little concern for others, tending to be bullies and petty thugs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

100 Blows: This discipline, which is activated as a move action, gives the Fighter Haste for 1 round per Fighter level. The Fighter must wait 3 minutes after this has ended to enact it again.

Interesting, and snazzy. It needs a level limit, though. And maybe at a certain point the benefit becomes permanent?

Adrenaline Rush: The Fighter gains a +10 feet bonus speed, fast healing 1, and a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. Activating this Discipline is a standard action, lasts for 3 rounds + a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifer. A Fighter must wait 20 rounds after adrenaline rush has ended to activate it again.

A standard action to activate a minor combat buff is bad. Making it an enhancement bonus is worse. It should be a swift action and an unnamed bonus, as per Rage. Right now, it's best used as post-battle healing.

Aggressive Attack: As a swift action, the Fighter gains doulbe the base weapon damage on all his attack rolls for 1 minute per level. (a medium long sword get +1d8, a medium dagger gets +1d4, etc). A fighter must wait 12 hours after the duration has ended to enact this discipline again.

There is absolutely no reason for this to have a time limit or a cooldown, much less such a long cooldown. At best, it's an average of +7 damage. It's a neat minor damage bonus, though.

Cavlier's Charge A Fighter who uses this discipline is able to at the end of a mounted charge, deal an additional 1d8 points of damage on his first attack, and he and his mount receive a +1 dodge bonus to their respective ACs for the remainder of the round. The extra damage is not multiplied for any reason, such as if the Fighter is wielding a lance or if he has the Spirited Charge feat. In addition to the bonus to his AC, the Fighter also receives a +1 bonus to all Ride checks he makes with his Mounted Combat feat until the beginning of the next round.

At 3rd level, and every 3rd level thereafter, the cavalier's charge ability deals an additional +1d8 points of damage and grants the Fighter and his mount an additional +1 AC and bonus to his Ride checks for the Mounted Combat feat, to a maximum of +7d8 damage and +7 dodge to AC and Ride at 18th level.

This is pretty decidedly mediocre. A small handful of extra damage on an attack mode that already does massive damage (charge + power attack with a lance?), an almost insignificant bonus to AC, and a totally insignificant bonus to Ride? Bleh.

Deft Dance: As a full round action the fighter gains the benefits of this discipline. Gaining a +1 dodge bonus to AC per 2 fighter levels and an additional attack with his off hand weapon every round at his full base attack bonus (with a -5 penalty). This lasts 1 round plus 1 round per Fighter level. A fighter must wait an hour after this discipline has ended to enact it again.

Full round activation? Seriously? Again, neat benefits, but the start time and cooldown are way out of line with the effect.

Evasive: As a standard action the Fighter can gives himself a +2 Dodge bonus to Ac as well as a +1 bonus to Reflex Saves. This increases to +4 dodge to AC and +2 to reflex at 7th level and +6 dodge to AC and +3 to reflex at 14th level. This lasts 1 round plus 1 round for every 3rd Fighter level. A Fighter may not enact this discipline again for 2 minutes.

See above.

Fearless: For 1 round per Fighter level the Fighter is immune to the effects of the shaken, frightened, or panicked conditions, as well as any ability or spell with the fear descriptor. A fighter activates this as an immediate action and cannot use this ability for 12 rounds after its duration has ended. A Fighter must be 7th level to gain this discipline.

This should be a permanent bonus.

Fortitude: As a swift action the Fighter becomes immune to Hit Point damage. All other forms of damage (ability score loss, negative levels, etc) can affect the warrior normally, as can non damaging effects. This lasts for 1 round plus a number fo rounds equal to Constitution modifer. A fighter may not enact this discipline for 24 hours after its duration has ended. A fighter must be 16th level to select this Discipline.

Nifty... though the 1/day thing is kind of sad.

Greater Adrenaline Rush: The Fighter gains a +10 feet bonus speed, fast healing 1, and a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Activating this Discipline is a standard action, lasts for 3 rounds + a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifer. A Fighter must wait 20 rounds after greater adrenaline rush, has ended to activate it again. This discipline replaces adrenaline rush.

Not much better than the normal version.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: The Fighter gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. A Fighter must be 12th level to take this Discipline.

To be expected, but not exciting.

Mighty Strike: As a swift action the Fighter's next attack has its critical threat ranged increased by a further 4 points and deals an addition 6d6 points of damage. A fighter may not enact this Discipline again for another 3 minutes.

This'un needs a level requirement like no-one's business. And maybe split up the two effects-- +6d6 damage is nice, but expanding that keen falchion's crit range to 11-20 is a huge boost all by itself.

Opportunist: Once per Round a Fighter may make an attack ( at a -4 penalty) against an opponent who has just been successfully damaged.

Too good for low levels, but I like this ability. Especially for ranged fighters.

Resistant: This discipline allows the Fighter to innure himself to the ravages of the elements. He grants himself acid, cold, disease, elecricity, fire, poison, and sonic resistance (5). This increases to resistance (10) at 12th level and to resistance (15) at 18th. To activate this requires an immediate action and this discipline lasts for 10 minutes plus 1 minute per fighter level. A Fighter must wait 2 hours after the discipline has ended to enact it again. A Fighter must be 6th level to take this discipline.

Solid.

Stalking Mastery: This discipline gives the Fighter a bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks equal to his base Will save.

That's... really odd scaling. Why not go with 1/2 level? Also, maybe give them the ability to ignore ACP to sneak-y skills?

Sudden Strike: If a Fighter deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, plus an additional 1d6 for every 3rd level to opponents who are denied their dexterity bonus to AC. This damage is not multiplied on critical hits.

Unexpected, but welcome.

Taunt: As a standard action a Fighter can force all within 30 feet to focus their attacks, abilities, and spells on him. An Will save at DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter Levels + Charisma Modifier overcomes. Mindless creatures are immune to this discipline. For every 7th rank of intimidate the Fighter has the DC is increased by 1.

Useful. Do enemies still try to avoid AoO's and such like the Knight's challenge, or do they just rush straight ahead?

Tempest: As a swift action, this allows the Fighter to make attack of opportunities againts opponents who miss him in combat. This does not give any additional attacks of opportunity. This discipline lasts 1 round per Fighter level. A fighter cannot enact this discipline again for 2 minutes after it has ended.

Nice, though it needs a level prereq.

Trueshot: A fighte gains a +2 insight bonus to all ranged attacks and every successful ranged attack deals double damage for 2 rounds plus one additional round for every 6th level. Like any damage multiple, these are additive with others, So a Fighter using a longbow who scored a critical hit would do X4 damage. A Fighter may not enact this disciple again for 1 hour after it has ended.

This is niiiiiice.

Uncanny Dodge: The Fighter gains the Uncanny Dodge ability. A Fighter must be 6th level to take this Discipline.

Ok. I guess with 80 disciplines, someone might pick this up, but I think you'd be better served making it (and its improvement) class features.

[Just to Browse]

I do not want to juggle 83 unique abilities, even casters don't have to deal with that level of option paralysis.

Tactical feats at level 3?

1-level fighter dips are now pretty much mandatory for everybody. At-will haste, RNG-ruining hide/ms, two bonus damage sources, and level 1 robilar's gambit are glorious gems even in the presence of the presence of horribly ineffective options like cavalier's charge and deft dance.

[ngilop]

Ok, can I get some feedback on the chassis of the Fighter itself.

I am looking at the new save progression, skill points and of course the greatly expanded skill list.

It alwasy struck me as odd that the dang commoner had a better skill list than the PhB fighter.


I added what one would consider typiclal guard skills 'spot and listen' to the fighter as well as skills I would imagine a combat specialist would have 'balance and tumble'

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm... I'd drop Tactical Feats as a separate category. It's kind of redundant to have both, when you're also handing out so many special abilities. Speaking of, Shield Ally and Battle Perception (which is really cool) should probably be disciplines.

As for skills, Knowledge (Local), Gather Information, and Sense Motive all seem pretty key for a cop. Search too, perhaps. Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), (Geography), and (History) are useful for an army commander, although probably not in an actual game.

[Just to Browse]

43 unique abilities is still too much. These are all combat-relevant abilities that may be passive, use unique action economy, and/or scale to level. A fighter should have to care about 10 of them, and others should either become noticeably obsolete or work like maneuvers so that he only has a number readied. Wizards deal with ~60 unique per-day abilities max, and they burn 50-75% in utility and basic buffs.

Tactical feats at level 3 are still weird.

The fighter, like martial adepts, is a fantastic 1-level dip for a low-level character, but unlike martial adepts the fighter is not rewarded for advancing in the class past level 6. There are no relevant abilities past that point, and we're already at the point where the power list is an SpC-style wall of text rife with power spikes and trap choices.

I see your explanation of a fighter in the OP, and I don't think it's workable. This is a class whose defining ability is "does stuff", and that just doesn't have ground to stand on.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you'll accept a suggestion on how to order disciplines more mange-ably? (Besides, you know, cutting the number down) Make archetypes, and sort disciplines into those. Then offer one archetype discipline every odd-numbered level, starting at first. On the even-numbered levels, choose from a list of "generic" fighter disciplines. Ideally, you could have archetype disciplines be active and generic passive, but that's just a thought. For the chassis, at first, and every 5th level, offer an absolutely universal, must-have ability (say, full attacking as a standard action). If you want a really clean table, have "bonus feat" be a generic discipline option.

(I'd also recommend sorting disciplines into grades, invocation-style, to make it easier to figure out what options you can learn when).

[ngilop]

My only problem with sorting things into archetypes is simple..

I only have 1 discipline for some archetypes (cavalier and archer) while some have several (Brute-slayer and Knight) the rest of my Disciplines (51 of them) are going to be ToB style strikes & boosts

but unlike ToB instead of havng 4 or 5 that dp XdY dmg as a level 1 maneuvers and X2DY2 at lvl 3 maneuver etc. Mine scale to level (this is actually my biggest gripe about ToB they basically gave you hundreds abilites and coul dhave cut it down to 1/4 or less if they had just made them scale to level)

I wanted the fighter to have a larger array of abilities to chose from so not every fighter ever looks exactly the same, as of right now you either get shock trooper fighter guy or super tripper fighter guy.

If I could think of 4 or so abilities for each of the archetypes I listed earlier id be set on following you idea Grod, but alas I cannot think of that many and that would also require me to create an even larger list of disciplines which is somehow terribly wrong

That i do not understand i mean. i have a character sheet for an 18th level wizard and he has 163 spells in his spell book, yes while he can only cast 48 of those spells per day.. thats still 163 options he has. 17 of them of course being niche spells like shatter

I was going for originally a Fighter knowing 83 out of 120-ish. but now that I look at that. it lets a fighter be a master of every archetype so I do agree that my original number was mighty large. SO i trimmed it down to 43. that way the fighter can be either a decent all around warrior or he can specilize in 1 and be passable in one or two others ( barring the fact that i am failing to think of things a mounted fighter and archer can do that are not better represented as feats)

I could maybe trim it down to be in the mid 30s. but that is as low as I am willing to go. what keeps the fighter low tier is not lack of power, the fighter can be a power house... its options and versatility he has a dearth of and that is what Im trying to bring to this fighter.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I could maybe trim it down to be in the mid 30s. but that is as low as I am willing to go. what keeps the fighter low tier is not lack of power, the fighter can be a power house... its options and versatility he has a dearth of and that is what Im trying to bring to this fighter.

Makes sense. But let's take a look at the most option-filled classes in D&D, shall we?

For this sample I'll pick the following

Artificer
Wizard
Psion
Swordsage
Binder

All of these classes have a large number of options. But that number is deceptive because of when you use these options.

Artificer: For all his crafting & infusion complexity, the Artificer plays fairly simply at a table. This is because your complicated abilities (infusions and crafting) are not used during combat. You use (most) of these abilities during downtime, so a player can make choices during non-time-sensitive points of the game session. The few infusions that are useful during combat are typically straightforward and easy to choose from.

Wizard: A Wizard has a huge spellbook...but you choose your spells from it at the beginning of the day, and out of combat. In combat you have, at 20th level, maybe 50-60 choices...but, practically, you have many less. Only a handful of spells in a particular level range are of use in a given situation, and all spells function in about the same way: pick spell, spend standard action casting it, resolve spell. So you're really only having to keep track of maybe a dozen abilities during any one combat, and you only need to delve into your more obscure spells in very specific situations.

Psion: Although it's point-casting system involves a lot of math, the Psion is a deceptively easy class, although [i]it is the most complicated class on this list[i]. That's because most powers can scale, making each of your 36 abilities potentially useful. This is probably the closest in complexity to what you're suggesting but, again, all powers use the same structure, making them easy to track. All are also active abilities (manifest them power to gain the benefit) which, again, helps how the class plays.

Swordsage: With only 26 powers known and only 12 readied at a time (+stances), the Swordsage and, in fact, all the martial adepts are actually very fluid classes to play. Abilities do actually scale (as you replace older versions of most of the +XdX damage abilities with their higher-level cousins as you increase in level), and, again, fit into an easy-to-learn framework: Boosts are Swift actions that do X, Counters are Immediate actions that do Y, Strikes replace attacks during your turn, and Stances are constant benefits. They follow, again, a specific set of rules and formatting, and you never have to track dozens at any one time.

Binder: The complexity of choosing bindings and binding bonuses is a bit high...but, again, only at the start of the day. Then you're locked into a much smaller and much easier to manage set of abilities, which have three use methods: Constant, At-Will, or 5-round recharge. This keeps things--notice a pattern here?--constant and helps players remember their capabilities.

*****

Your Fighter has a lot more complexity here. Firstly, it has 17 feats, of which 6 typically grant 3 combat options. So that's 11 + 18 options right there, for a total of 29 minor bonuses/alterations to existing features/new capabilities your player has to remember, all of which are likely viable options in a given combat situation (since you're a Fighter, and will probably have combat-focused feats). We're already above the number of things to remember at any one time of any of the above classes save the Psion.

Then we add 43 different selected options on top of that. These 43 options are either passive, or active, or both. They're standard actions...unless they're swift actions, immediate actions, move actions, full-round actions, attack replacements, or something else entirely. They have durations of...well, it varies. They can be used at will...unless there's a daily limit, or unless there's a per-encounter limit, or unless there's a recharge time. They scale (supposedly), so you need to remember all 43 in case they're useful. Many of them grant bonuses that can change other things (attack rolls, defenses, etc) so there's additional book-keeping there.

In short, we're looking at a class that has to track and remember at least 72 separate and supposedly viable options at all times. There's no real rhyme or reason to the structure of these abilities, making it hard to get a mental grip on the classes functionality.

CONCLUSION
You absolutely need a framework. All the option-heavy classes in D&D have a framework for ability selection: Spells, invocations, infusions, vestiges, psionic powers, martial maneuvers, incarnum bindings, mysteries, utterances...call them what you like, but their purpose is to take these complicated systems of select-able, varied abilities and put them into a simple framework that is easy to comprehend.

If you want a class of this complexity, that sort of framework is desperately required.

I'd also recommend ditching the bonus feats (or severely reducing them to, say, 1 every 4-5 levels). Don't make bonus feats carry the weight of your class: let your class features do that instead. That's why you're making them in the first place--design them with the intent to pick up the slack that having those extra 12+ bonus feats would otherwise take over.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My only problem with sorting things into archetypes is simple..

I only have 1 discipline for some archetypes (cavalier and archer) while some have several (Brute-slayer and Knight) the rest of my Disciplines (51 of them) are going to be ToB style strikes & boosts

If you can't think of more than one discipline for, say, an archer, how are you going to come up with 40 different options, much less the 100+ choices you want to allow players to pick from?

[ngilop]

My bad.. I forgot to add a sentance in there.. I meant to say

that I cannot think of amny additional disciplines that are not better served as feats.. for example I had an archer discipline, that was bascially deflect ranged attack.. but then I thought well defect arrows is a feat.. why can I not just make this an archery feat?

there is not much difference between a wizards spell book and a Fighter's discipline.

the expcetion being that while a wizard can theroticially know thousands of spells he cna only use a few dozen on any given day

the Fighter knows only those disciplines he selected

I guess I do character sheets different from you guys. but i write down a little sentance on what X spell does except for spells that I have in my memory ater casting them millions of times ( magic missle and fireball for example)

and I would do the same for teh disciplines.. write down what they do to keep track.

I was under the impression that everybody did their character sheets like that.. well at least thats the only character sheet ive ever experienced in my life.

thats one thnig about GiTP. find out ive been doing this D&D thing wrong my whole life LOL.

but i digress.. on one hand. it seem you want archetypes and a few disciplines under each of those archetypes then have some more general disciplines.. which would require me to have a lot more disciplines.

then they alos need cut down to only there being a dozen or so disciplines thereby doing the exact opposite of what I wanted to do to help the fighter. give him options and versatility.

SO.. if I make a few (like 6 or so) disciplines under each archetype then make a general list as well ( for things like the Martial strikes and generic combat abilities) do you think that would work better?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was under the impression that everybody did their character sheets like that.. well at least thats the only character sheet ive ever experienced in my life.

thats one thnig about GiTP. find out ive been doing this D&D thing wrong my whole life LOL.

Firstly, please stop whining about how awful this board is. No-one here (at least no-one in this thread) has been anything but polite and helpful. Passive aggressive comments like that don't make anyone happy.

Secondly, I try to arrange my character sheet like you do, and I tell everyone else to do the same. Not everyone listens, but... in any case, it's not the "why does [ability x] do?" that's the problem, it's "do I use [ability x], [ability y], or [ability z] this turn?" that slows things to a crawl. Or, as is often the case here, "OK, I have [x], [y], and [z] active. Now, [x] gives my these bonuses, [y] gives me these, which interact in this way, but then [x] will end in two turns and it goes back to being like this...

Options are good. Too many leads to option paralysis, which is bad.

but i digress.. on one hand. it seem you want archetypes and a few disciplines under each of those archetypes then have some more general disciplines.. which would require me to have a lot more disciplines.

You're going to need a lot of disciplines no matter what you do. A good rule of thumb is that you want to have twice as many options as you have choices, so if a given fighter can choose 40 disciplines, there should be 80 to pick from.

then they alos need cut down to only there being a dozen or so disciplines thereby doing the exact opposite of what I wanted to do to help the fighter. give him options and versatility.

The individual fighter only needs 10-20 abilities, sure. Look at the Swordsage-- a solid T3 melee character with 31 abilities known (and only 18 accessible in a given fight). It doesn't take 50 options at a time to make a character who can be useful in all situations. You can get away with a lot fewer if they scale well and can be used for more than just killing things.

[ngilop]

AH, ok I get you now.

Its not the actual listing of the disciplines its the decision making and the 'which do i use now' part that will slow things down.

Well if i break it into

brute slayer-the not a lot of defense, but pretty devastating offense.. maybe just dropping the name to Slayer?
Knight- the defensive focused power house
Fencer - lightly armor finesse fighter who gets in some cheap shots and tricks to win
Man-at-Arms- the 'stock' fighter generally good all around not to great in any of the respective ..maybe make this the general list?
Commander- leader of men and armies
Archer- the guy with a bow, ya know OHHH RHYMS IN THE HOUSE!
Dervish- the dual wielding aficionado
Cavalier- the mounted scary guy
--and any other archetype I might be forgetting ( im sure there are a couple out there)

and give each .. i'll say 8 disciplines each that'll give me 56 disciplines

then I'll make a general list which is where the martial strikes and other generic abilities like uncanny dodge and Adrenaline rush will do..
maybe put another 60 or so in there

that will give me 120 ish like I first had planned then cut the number of Disciplines known down to like 32 would that be a better way of going.

I was not whining, just posting a thought. This board does play extremely different that ive ever experienced before.

and I am certainly not whining to you nor Djinn. I have a list of pretty chill guys (and girls) that I have always thought were awesome peeps, Both of you happen to be on that list. SO i greatly respct your advice and take it to heart.. It was just a misunderstanding on my part about where the confusion of having disciplines is coming from


I can make it so that you have to select from your 'focused' archetype at certain intervals, so you wanna be a dervish that means that 6 or 7 out of your 32 disciplines are going to be directly from the dervish list. probably half are going to be from the general (actually now im thinking of making Man-at-Arms the general list and the other 8 or so are going to come from some other archetypes. Like you go a couple in Slayer to pick up aggressive attack and mighty attack, while picking up the Knights fortitude.. at least that kinda how I imagine it so far.

oh and why i gave the fighter Sudden Strike.. it just struck me as odd that the fighter didn't get it when the Ninja came out ( that was the first class I saw with the ability) and I was like "this makes more sense on a combat focused chassis.. taking advatage of an opening in your opooents defences, not so much fidning a weak points and stabbing it thusly.. I didnot want it to overshadow the Rogues sneak attack so thats why i made it every 3rd level

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, that's sounding a little more reasonable. I'd weight it 50-50 archetype-general power, to keep different fighters from being too same-y, but that's just me.

It sounds like you're going to keep most of the "strikes" (active abilities?) generic, yes? I'd advise against that, generally, as it's the exciting, active abilities that give you the most character.

For archer, I'd break it down into sniper (one shot, one kill) and volley archer (my arrows will blot out the fun). Also, maybe a skirmisher archetype?

Also... maybe allow fighters to pick two archetypes (or pick a second at higher levels), so you can get an archer/commander of knight/cavalier. Maybe powers from the second archetype scale with level-2 or something, I dunno.

[ngilop]

yeah thats my plan.. they have the archetype they chose at first level and everytime it comes up X level they have to chose a dsicpline from that archetype again, of course along the way they can grab the general disicplines and can pick up other achetypes but must have X-Y wherein X=number of main archetype disicplines and Y is a yet unkown numbver ( the 2 you usgessted sounds good, but it might need to be 3 or higher depending on how this class come along in my future itinerations.

SO having the strikes be general is a bad thing.. where should I put them at ?

[Grod_The_Giant]

If it were me (and this is all subjective, mind), I'd put most or all active, triggered abilities in the archetype lists, and the passive ones on the general list. Only an commander can use Inspire Charge and only a Brute can use Crushing Blow, but both can pick up Uncanny Dodge or Power Stance. That's pretty similar to how the linked fix worked, although the generic, passive abilities were welded to the chassis.

But like I said, it's a subjective idea. It's totally valid to mix your strikes and stances in any way you want.

[Hanuman]

"80+ Fighter Class Features"

Did you mean: "A draft of 4 unsorted disciplines."?

[Just to Browse]

Here and here are two fighter-ish classes (the first far more than the other) that have output comparable to a wizard of equal level. At maximum, the Soldier has 30 possible abilities to use (of 90, with mix-and-match numeric bonuses) at any given time, and the Soulborn has 20 (of 40, with mix-and-match numeric bonuses).

That's really all you need. Regardless of how you mix up the dispersal of abilities, the abilities should take up 1 post maximum, including all formatting and lengthy clarification.

[urkthegurk]

What's with the save progression? I mean, aside from the fact that you can probably afford to give the Fighter all good saves (they'll still have a fairly sucky will save with no wisdom bonus, don't worry), I've never seen a progression like that before. Did you make a 'medium' progression, to supplement the 'good' and 'bad' ones?

Another way to handle that might be to let the fighter add intelligence or charisma or whatever to one of their saves. That way you're not adding a new progression. I see no reason why you CAN'T add a new progression (would it break the game? I doubt it) but it feels messy.

Here and here are two fighter-ish classes (the first far more than the other) that have output comparable to a wizard of equal level. At maximum, the Soldier has 30 possible abilities to use (of 90, with mix-and-match numeric bonuses) at any given time, and the Soulborn has 20 (of 40, with mix-and-match numeric bonuses).

That's really all you need. Regardless of how you mix up the dispersal of abilities, the abilities should take up 1 post maximum, including all formatting and lengthy clarification.

I'm not sure. The wizard/sorc spell list takes up about half of the players handbook. But I agree that the ability itself should be explained in a few paragraphs, the way the rules for spellcasting are, and if needed the player can refer to a more complete list of choose-able abilities. Certainly you shouldn't have to refer to this entire list every time you want to take a standard action.

[SamBurke]

Gonna go ahead and do a few things...

First, link my very long and very argued-over thread, "What do you want in a fighter?" because it greatly helped illustrate what people expect when they "fight." Of course, it's a frikin wall of text x 10 pages x 30 + posts a page... but I found it all very good, if you're up for the research and digging.

Second, I do think you should go back and do a basic pass for grammar and such again (especially capitalization) on that first post. The second post is fine, first could just be brushed up a bit, as it's what greets new readers of the thread.

Next, I'd like to talk about the major contention here: the class's structure. What I've found helpful is this: bounded possibilities. There should be lots of *theoretical* possibilities to any class, but they should have boundries of some sort. Several possible ones are:

-Thematic Boundries. All the choices in a class are tied together by a theme. This is part of what makes ToB easy to understand: Each of its 9 Disciplines focuses on a combat style and its visual. Shadow Hand is darkness, movement, sneaky-stabby stuff, while Iron Heart is resisting, tanking, surviving, etc. This helps players understand what and where to look. This is the same for Spells' "Schools" and the like.

-Upgrades. Another thing ToB does is give you better versions of the same technique, so you get that. Also, there could be additional disciplines for your Fighter that give special bonuses. IE, "Rage" at level one, then, "Whirlwind Rage", which allows additional attacks when raging. Pathfinder does this with its Rage Abilities: you have tons of them (10+), but you can choose paths that upgrade some more than others.

-Option Help. Sometimes, it's easier to give boundries to players by giving them easy, obvious, options. IE, the beginning of a Feat Chain, or something really cool-sounding. This ties in with 1 and 2 pretty strongly: use everything in your arsenal to guide the player through your class. Names should make sense, and there should be no traps or potholes in the design. Make sure that anything they choose WILL be useful.

I think that covers most of what I thought would help... but I"ll be sticking around.