Warlock Hexblade at lvl5, HEX is still a good option?

[RSP]

Is not my opinion is RAW.
Pact Weapon you conjure with pact of the blade is not magic.

I didn’t say it was your opinion. I said it “counts as magical” could mean it is, in fact magical (a +1 Warhammer also counts as magical and is, unquestionably, magical). You interpret it one way, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your interpretation, but it can be interpreted the other way as well.

[Alek]

I didn’t say it was your opinion. I said it “counts as magical” could mean it is, in fact magical (a +1 Warhammer also counts as magical and is, unquestionably, magical). You interpret it one way, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your interpretation, but it can be interpreted the other way as well.

Sorry yes my bad I didn't give more info cause I thought it was clear.

The wording is clear:
"This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage"

"Count as" and just for that propose. This clarifies that is not magic but just count as one in one specific case.
As opposed to every other wording in the PHB.

Also the IPW does not make the weapon magical.

Another point is that later on is explained when you can use a magic weapon as your pact weapon.

Is not an interpretation is RAW as I said that's why I didn't explained it further my bad.

I've find out this long time ago when I started studying my Warlock.

[Alek]

Somehow this thread went beyond my expectations with some great new ideas and different experiences on Warlocks.

[RSP]

The wording is clear:
"This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage"

"Count as" and just for that propose. This clarifies that is not magic but just count as one in one specific case.

Again, I understand your interpretation, however, their is no “just” in the RAW.

Can you cast EW on a Pact Weapon in a combat in which you’re facing a creature with resistance to nonmagical weapons? Now it’s definitely in the situation where RAW it counts as magical, no? So is it dependent on what you’re currently fighting? Or is the innate ability to be magical indicative that it is magical, even if the reason why it’s magical is for a specific purpose?

Again, there’s different ways to interpret this.

[Alek]

Again, I understand your interpretation, however, their is no “just” in the RAW.

Can you cast EW on a Pact Weapon in a combat in which you’re facing a creature with resistance to nonmagical weapons? Now it’s definitely in the situation where RAW it counts as magical, no? So is it dependent on what you’re currently fighting? Or is the innate ability to be magical indicative that it is magical, even if the reason why it’s magical is for a specific purpose?

Again, there’s different ways to interpret this.

Ok. Anyway EW is a good option for later on but we all seem to agree that Hex has still a good value

[Rukelnikov]

Spoiler: danse macabre

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EW with PAM, sentinel and lifedrinker does not fall that far behind, making some broad assumptions about how often you can count on that reaction (from either PAM or sentinel) and about hit chance. But if falls behind, and moreover the dance macabre build does not really have to rely on feats like sentinel and PAM or wait for lifedrinker. Damage wise, and speaking completely theoretically, I don't see any way beating danse macabre. And the awesome thing about it is that it lasts for one hour, so in most cases you could theoretically count on that one casting to go from short rest to short rest, leaving you more spell slots to spare for other stuff. In fact, we could use it on a hexblade as well, and still take stuff like sentinel and lifedrinker if we really wanted to, just for the sake of comparing with the EW hexblade PAM, sentinel build. That will further increase the dpr difference somewhat, also making less important the accuracy of our assumption regarding how often our reaction attacks proc. And it still leaves us with one more feat, which we could use to boos our charisma to 20 (I've been using 18 charisma at lvl 12 for comparisons, cause I included resilient con for every build), or perhaps in better ways. In short, yeah, the dpr potential of danse macabre is very good, and the duration really solves a lot of problems regarding our spellcasting.

And while in theory it seems the perfect warlock spell to me, I have second thoughts about how effective it really is in actual play. That's because of how fragile the minions are, especially at these levels. And especially if the plan is to go with danse macabre through multiple encounters (for me, that adds a LOT of value to this spell). How have you seen it hold up? I am asking cause I haven't used it (or undead minions at these levels). I am thinking that spending a feat n inspiring leader would really help with that spell. Cause our minions have great attack bonus and good damage, though their hp really need some boosting. And if we are planning on going through multiple encounters with this spell, then inspiring leader would really help with keeping that added dpr high, cause our minions would be better at surviving. Plus, the added hp play well with if you ever want to send them in melee (cause if the DM allows dual wielding short swords, then the dpr raises considerably). Though I would still not do that unless really necessary, or unless I was pretty certain that I would be getting a short rest before the next fight. So we could have resilient con and inspiring leader by level 9, and even one more feat or charisma boost if we start at vhuman. In case we are going hexblade and pact of the blade, we could still grab something like sentinel at level 12, ie at the same time we would be getting lifedrinker. Thoughts?

I was thinking of what archetype would work best if we aimed at a warlock planning to spam danse macabre from level 9 and onwards. So I was looking at the archetypes, though without paying much attention to any concentration spells on their bonus list. Goo loses a lot of value if we are not planning to combine evard's with repelling EB's, fiend has lost a lot of value for me ever since synaptic static came online and ever since hexblade became a thing, and we wont really rely on wall of fire and repelling EB's since we plan on using danse macabre (I guess fiend still gets command, which is a good use of our slots). I never really saw any mechanical value in the undying patron (though I do like the fluff). And I am a little unfamiliar with the celestial patron (do you see anything that synergizes with danse macabre there?). That leaves me with two choices. Archfey and hexblade. What archetype is your friend using?

Completelly disregarding fluff, I think archefey is good cause really, it has good features (spell slot free escape from melee with pseudo misty step, and the charm works well when we have trouble being in melee; I consider these things pretty good for a ranged warlock who has limited slots so it wouldn't be ideal to rely on actual misty step or far step to get out of trouble). They also get plant growth, which is a good no-concentration spell.

And the hexblade is basically good cause it deals with the getting in melee problem of the ranged warlock in a completely different way. Ie it gives us a good AC (and some melee potential through hex warrior and we can boost that if we go as far as to grab pact of the blade). Though I was thinking, that if the plan is to have these 5 fragile skeletons adding dpr to the side by staying back and shooting arrows, and we plan on keeping safe as many of them as we can cause we want to run them through more than 1 encounter ideally, then it would be a good thing to be in melee (AC 18 or 19 depending stealth, con mod of +3), cause throwing another body in melee means a little less danger for our dpr machines. Hence why I am thinking that the hexblade might actually be the best archtype for making the most out of danse macabre. Of course, the group composition plays a part, for example danse macabre (and a melee hexblade for that matter) would do poorly in a ranged heavy group, so I am not assuming such a unfavorable scenario in the first place. Plus, being a melee warlock who economizes spell slots (so, hexblade running danse macabre fits), allows us to use armor of agathys more frequently, which is another thing that also adds to our dpr. Or save that slot for synaptic static. Or for counterspell (cause blasting can bring our dpr low if it catches enough skeletons in it). Level 11 is helpful cause it's adding one more slot.

Essentially, this is forming into a build that plans to solve most of the combat issues through damage. Danse macabre adds damage, armor of agathys is an option since we will be in melee, synaptic static is another option for when we can target an area with many enemies in it. And it's very decent damage. All we really need aside for the charisma boosts (that I personally wouldn't mind delaying somewhat) is resilient and probably inspiring leader. And we still have some good utility for out of combat through spells and invocations presumably. Then we would be looking what we could be doing with mystic Arcanum, though I digress since I was more interested in talking about danse macabre in the first place.

Any thoughts?

What archetype is your friend using?

My friend was playing a Half-Orc Necromancer, so no Lock archetype.

How have you seen it hold up?

They did good, they were his strongest minions on top of the AD ones, and the boosted To Hit was really noticeable, and if enemies target them they are absorbing hits which is good in and of itself.

If playing this a Lock, I'd prolly go GOO, Dissonant Whispers can make melee minions a viable strategy (DM dependant), and eventually Create Thrall may give you one more minion (also DM dependant). If DM doesn't roll with DW's movement provoking AoO, and treats Create Thrall as just getting a friend, then Hexblade would be my second best option because of Accursed Sepctre, adding an extra minion for minionmancy.

Whichever subclass I take, I would definitely go Pact of the Chain for an extra minion to throw at my foes, and Magic Stone is your most important cantrip, since it will turn your bonus action into 3 attacks for +12 to hit, 1d6+10 magical bludgeoning damage (to hit is Dex + Cha from MS, and Skellys add your Cha to all their attacks and damage). So your BA is comparable to (or better than) the standard attack routine of a Fighter lvl 11.

[Corran]

Spoiler: Rsp29a

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I imagine 50% of hits being misses, vs 50% HP loss is relatively even, yes, with a very slight bump towards Barbs as they round down (so maybe 50.5% reduction?), and a bigger slight bump to Hexblades for being able to turn crits into misses.

Yeah, pretty much. With armor of agathys reducing the hp difference.
Though, in an ideal scenario, and assuming the AoH does not use your reaction, you could go as far as to lower the hit chance of an ancient red all the way down to 24.5% (using shadow of moil for disadvantage -or dodge if the DM rules that SoM does not work, shield with reactions -1 level sorcerer dip, or from something like a ring of spell storing as you said, and armor of hexes against every hit). That was my first idea about hexblades, from level 10 and onwards. Play the EB canon / caster from the back, but when a strong enemy appears, go up front and tank it hard (feats: warcaster, resilient con and sentinel for stickiness; relentless hex and dimension door to give chase if necessary). The fun part is that pact of the blade would be completely optional with such a build, and basically we could be a typical warlock with that added benefit being essentially our archetype's contribution.

Unfortunately AoH uses your reaction though. I just checked.

However, it’s still only against one enemy per SR. AC would still matter as turning 6 hits into 3 hits is better than 8 hits into 4 hits. Plus all the other attacks you receive that aren’t from the cursed creature.

Yes. I am not sure what I was arguing there.

Interesting. In a non-magic-weapon game, Bladelocks have a role as “fighters” due to overcoming resistances.

Spoiler: rambling

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Never thought of it like that. Though I do value abilities that can make your weapon magical. To be fair, we have experimented with solutions to this (it's really bad on fighters IME), like having silvered weapons count as magic, or by completely doing away with bludgeoning, piercing and slashing resistances and immunities. All of these the result of that one campaign where the BBEG was using golems immune to mundane weapons, all in a setting where magic was hunted down with extreme prejudice. Oh, and no magic weapons whatsoever. Nowadays we mostly avoid whatever gives you a flat bonus to attacks, DC, skills or attributes and we downgrade immunities to simply resistance. Every now and then someone might throw a magic item but little in the way of weapons or staff (4 or 5 campaigns back there was a magic sword that granted misty step 1/day). Mostly utility ones. There is some distaste leftover from 4e, about how important the magic items were to the effectiveness of the character (maybe that's not true, but some of us were left with this impression). And there is a little paranoia from the 3e days, where if you got something useful, it would be only to lose it later.

The biggest change was in DM'ing though. It takes a while for some players to get used to the idea that there is not a magic item at the end of the dungeon or that the reward might be simply gold.

Possibly to the former (as pointed out by Alek it could work), no to the latter (EW states magic weapon, rather than +1 like IPW).

I could see a very tortured interpretation for EW. Interpreting the text as two separate benefits. The magic weapon wouldn't get the 1st benefit obviously, but it gets the second. It qualifies for the spell, since the in the target it says 'touch', and the spell description specifies what qualifies: 1st benefit specifies non-magical weapon, 2nd benefit specifies weapon. But yeah, a very tortured interpretation that probably throws subjectivity out of the window.
I agree with Alek about pact of the blade.

EW works well with PAM, though I’d boost Conc before taking Sentinel (enemies usually have either a ranged attack or a-better-than-5’ reach).

Assuming PAM, sentinel, resilient con and EW and variant human?
I am thinking either sentinel or resilient con at level 1, the remaining of the two at level 4, PAM at level 8 and cha boosts at levels 12 and 16. PAM is good at low levels, though I don't get EW until level 5, and frankly, it is not that great until level 9 anyway. So I think I would go with hex until level 7, then at level 8 take PAM and start using EW, only one level before it ugrades. I'd definitely want decent concentration for hex anyway, though hex starts working well at level 5, which is why I am undecided if I should prioritize sentinel over resilient or vice versa. But yeah, I would delay PAM and use hex early on. Though this is something I just thought of, I was making my life a lot easier earlier by assuming a level 12 build in the first place.

Btw, I am totally thinking about a spear and shield set up. I can't think of many ways to exploit a glaive's reach. It can spare us from some attacks combined with sentinel, but I prefer the constant +2 AC from a shield. Also, I would like to be up close so I can use sentinel with reactions as often as possible.

On second though (coming back here after thinking about spell usage later down in this post), there are spells I would like to have slots open, besides my concentration use and the occasional armor of agathys. Spells like synaptic static and counterspell, or maybe dimension door, or a lot more rare, sth like hold person and banishing smite. And until I get the 3rd slot at level 11, if I am using elemental weapon, I will have a very hard time keeping a slot open for when I would profit from casting one of these spells. Level 11 is only two levels away from level 9, which is when EW actually becomes worth using imo. And I count on PAM for using EW, else I would be going with hex. But with the spell slots and how I would need to use them in mind, now I am thinking that I would be better off using EW from level 11 onwards. So I am now thinking of postponing PAM all the way to 12, which is when I get lifedrinker (which also works well with PAM). Yep, that's what I'd do. I'd take PAM at level 12. I think that's the best level to take it now. With vhuman, that means I can squeeze one charisma boost until that point. I am still not sold on warcaster, I think I would take risk. And incidentally, by level 12 I will have already grabbed AoH, which helps with melee. That's what I am thinking right now. Go with hex and mix and match it as needed up to level 11, and at level 12 make a hard turn with PAM and lifedrinker and go into melee mode, with EB being a respectable ranged attack. Because at level 12 we have everything that helps with melee in place (upgraded EW, all the feats, AoH), and we have enough spell slots to make the change from hex to EW without very seriously crippling ourselves.

I like Hex even for melee Warlocks for the reasons you mentioned. And I like both getting Resilient (Con) and Warcaster: adding Con Sv proficiency is worthwhile in and of itself, and Warcaster all but ensures passing those pesky DC 10 Conc saves, while giving the benefit of casting on an OA.

I am very tempted to agree about taking both warcaster and resilient con. I'll tell you why I am feeling a little more adventurous than usual and I am thinking only of resilient and not of warcaster. Firstly, slightly better con mod (+3) than in every other gish build I would normally play. Secondly, I am counting a lot on sentinel (and secondarily on PAM) to occupy my reactions, so I don't care all that much about OA's. Thirdly, again opposed to most gishes or casters I would normally play, this build plans to use hex and later on elemental weapon primarily with concentration. That's not a spell that wins fights, that's a spell that helps with the mopping. Yes, it will suck if I lose concentration on it, but it wont be as harmful as if I were to lose concentration on something like hypnotic pattern or evard's or generally on a spell on which I would bet a lot about winning the encounter. I am still not terribly happy with this explanation though. Maybe I am a bit overenthusiastic about the potential for dpr once this build reaches a certain level, that I don't balance it well. Once you start thinking of adding all of lifedrinker, EW, and the curse when it applies, on top of sentinel and PAM, it's tempting to neglect a bit your defense (in this case, by not adding a second concentration feat).

Getting both isn’t just for Hex, though. The benefit of Hex is its efficiency: overall you’ll save slots vs Darkness/GWM or EW, so you’ll have them available for Fear (great on a frontline caster who can make full use of the cone), HP, Sickening Radiance, or whatever you prefer. If you’re in a combat where Fear, for example, is your best option, you want to keep Conc on it.

That's one problem I have with the hexblade. The spell list does not really do it for me. The only concentration spells I could see me taking (apart from EW, and talking about combat, cause I would probably pick both fly and invisibility), are hold person and banishing smite. And both of those would be only for very situational use (hold person if I am fighting against a very dangerous group, say 4-7, of humanoids, and banishing smite if there is a serious enemy caster in the fight). I do like HP, and I think it's one of those spells that can determine the outcome of a fight, though here is the thing. If I have a clean shot at HP, I also have a clean shot at synaptic static. Now, I don't think I would have to use both spells in the same fight, at least as the majority of fights goes, and probably that holds true even more for a warlock who has more limitations on the spell slots. I consider HP a better spell that synaptic static, but given the slot limitation and the fact that I will most likely already be concentrating on another spell (EW in this case), I wouldn't mind that compromise. Ie, resorting to synaptic static whenever I have the opportunity to throw an AoE. I would almost certainly have hypnotic pattern till level 9 though, at which point I would most likely retrain it with synaptic static. Undecided about banishment, not sure if I should sacrifice it as well.

But other than those, the other warlock concentration spells don't speak to me. Fear is not that great on a frontliner imo. I understand why you say that so that we don't hit allies. Though whatever little experience I had with this spell (and it was with sorcerers) tells me that exactly because the cone is a weird shape, but also because fear profits from OA's (and in an extreme case scenario from someone grabbing the weapons that fell into the ground, though that's a bit of a stretch -seen it play a part once though), you really profit from fear if you cast it from a small distance (usually 1 or 2 squares further back) and after your allies have engaged with the enemies and there is a nice cluster. Meaning, this is a good spell imo when you can avoid friendly fire while at least some of your allies are inside the cone.

Btw, notice that there is a difference between darkness and elemental weapon in the duration. I think EW would prove less taxing on spell slots compared to darkness.

The beauty of a Bladelock, to me, is it’s versatility, which I prefer over trying to maximize its damage output: I’ll take a little less damage for the option of better uses with those spell slots.

I could see me thinking that for some of the other archetypes.

For example, for a fiendlock I would definitely look to rely on hex and save some slots for when I have the opportunity to use a wall of fire effectively (possibly exploiting that with some repelling blasts). Or because WoF is not something you will often have the opportunity to use effectively, fall back to something like HP or banishment. Between hex and these 3 spells, I'd say that I would have the concentration spells to cover most situations. Hex would also allow me to keep slots open for command, counterspell or maybe even for something like dispel magic, armor of agathys and dimension door.

Or for a goolock. Again, I would probably rely on hex and look at black tentacles for when I want to step things up. Again with counterspell and dimension door as contingencies.

But for a hexblade. You get all those little things that tempt you to go to melee (armor proficiencies, cha for weapon attacks, even the curse has small range). And if you are into melee, there are all these little synergies that boost your dpr so nicely. And the spell list does not look that amazing to pass up, no synergies found there, just a handful of good spells (the best of which -HP- does not even profit from upcasting; and you can get a decent AoE effect from synaptic static now). And there is even a 1 hour long concentration spell that helps with melee combat and synergizes perfectly with the curse and with lifedrinker (in that, all of them profit from getting more attacks). It's just that the hexblade is really missing that one spell that I can resort to and be happy when I want to upgrade from hex. And that makes me think that it might be worth it to upgrade from hex to elemental weapon at the cost of 1 or more likely 2 slots per day, thus restricting somewhat my combat picks to the absolutely necessary (armor of agathys, synaptic static for AoE, hold person and banishing smite for situational uses, counterspell and dispel magic if there is a need, and dimension door just in case). Still, the resulting build makes me wish I play in a party with either a paladin or a bard (for aura of protection or for inspiration) and definitely in a not heavy ranged party.

I've thought about playing the hexblade as the typical EB warlock, where whatever little melee capabilities you get to shine whenever you are cornered. And that would not be a small thing. It's a big deal for a warlock to be able to deal with enemies that engage without having to spend slots to teleport away. Though all this melee potential that goes to waste bugs me, and it also bugs me that the added spells don't offer anything I would really like on a caster (unlike the bonus spells of some of the other archetypes). In short, if I go towards melee I am left unsatisfied cause the build is indeed lacking in some areas (though I will take the trade of slots to what is mostly damage, cause I am not amazed by how I would otherwise be using the slots). If I go towards caster, I am bothered a bit about my options and for not exploiting any melee dpr synergies.

Maybe the best idea is to jump in and out of melee as needed. Cause the best I can offer right now, is play a melee hexblade in a party that can carry you. And until arcana comes into play, you are a fighter with some nice utility and some spell contingencies. Which definitely contradicts how I tend to play gishes, but hexblade really draws me to that style. I think it really comes down to how unimpressed I am with the spells.

Currently playing a Half Elf 9 Hexblade. Rolled for stats so was able to start with 18 Cha (post racial mod), took Resilient (Con) at 4, and Warcaster at 8. 1st combat, use Hex and go from there. Haven’t lost Conc since taking Warcaster, outside of being Incapacitated, and Hex works with either Pact Weapon or EB, which is nice as not every combat is melee-friendly.

That's a good point about hex. It's part of the reason I formed my mind mid post that it would be worth it to go with hex up to level 11. But if you are taking lifedrinker at the point, I think it might be worth it to take PAM too and also consider to start using EW. Failing to boost charisma will not hurt your mysic Arcanum picks too much, as there are good choices that don't depend on it (forcecage and true polymorph or foresight; I'd still probably take scatter for level 6 and I have no idea about level 8).

Went S&B for the added AC. Optimized Invocations would TB, IPW, AB, RB, and Misty Visions (currently trying out the effectiveness of Maddening Hex and ToL, but not sold on either. Will switch back to the EB ones when able). Misty Visions, while costing Conc, is too fantastic to pass on.

Why do you need IPW? I was thinking about it since I probably wouldn't have warcaster (at least I think it solves the issue of casting with both hands full; thinking about it mainly for counterspelling), but you do have warcaster. Though now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind a charisma-based longbow just in case I really need to deliver a banishing smite from range. What do you think about trickster's escape and relentless hex (I am guessing that the ring of spell storing mitigates the need to spend an invocation for the last one)?

Do you plan for lifedrinker at level 12? If so, how do you think something sentinel (that plays better than PAM with hex and your flametongue) would work for you? Or are you set on charisma boosts for levels 12 nd 16? I guess having a use for your reaction with either shield (from the ring) or a chance at strong OA's from BB, restrict the use of your reaction somewhat, and thus make sentinel less appealing. Although, you do have a flametongue. A reaction attack with a flametongue, and with lifedrinker, hex and potentially the damage from curse on top of it sounds good to spend a feat on. Assuming you have someone suitable (or enough) allies to fight next to.

Was lucky enough to snag a Flametongue Longsword and a Ring of Spell Storing (for Shield mostly, though other good spells, if available: Misty Step, Healing Word, Sanctuary). Both help melee effectiveness quite a bit, and I’d say are ideal for this type of build, though not necessary for it. As of yet, no magical armor/shields so still at 19 AC.

A use of absorb elements would be nice to have in that ring too. Especially if you decide to retrain ToL.

I feel this style of Bladelock keeps damage competitive both in melee and at range, while still allowing the caster side to produce, when needed. Though I admittedly like versatility over maximizing one area, and so I can see how other styles would prefer other builds.

After having played this character up to level 9, are you having any second thoughts about any of the spells you have selected so far?

Spoiler: Rukelnikov

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They did good, they were his strongest minions on top of the AD ones, and the boosted To Hit was really noticeable, and if enemies target them they are absorbing hits which is good in and of itself.

I am a little less enthusiastic about that for a warlock. Due to the fewer spell slots (compared to a wizard), I would really like to try and keep danse macabre as long as possible between short rests (ideally keep it for every fight from when I cast it and till I get a short rest). Which means that I want to keep it going as close to full strength as possible. So not losing minions helps a lot here. Part of why I was thinking of inspiring leader. Sending them into melee should only be something I would do if there is great need, ideally.

If playing this a Lock, I'd prolly go GOO, Dissonant Whispers can make melee minions a viable strategy (DM dependant), and eventually Create Thrall may give you one more minion (also DM dependant). If DM doesn't roll with DW's movement provoking AoO, and treats Create Thrall as just getting a friend, then Hexblade would be my second best option because of Accursed Sepctre, adding an extra minion for minionmancy.

Hmm, not sure if I would want to send minions into melee (the most adventurous idea I can have right now is two armored zombies and 3 skeletons). Though, to be fair, if going goo, I would definitely want it. One of the occasions where I might have all the minions go into melee would be if enemies engaged me, so I guess dissonant whispers followed by a ton of OA's could be a better use of a slot than sth like misty step or dimension door. Not sure if I would go goo though just for that, though definitely something to think more about (especially if I have allies with strong OA's).

Whichever subclass I take, I would definitely go Pact of the Chain for an extra minion to throw at my foes, and Magic Stone is your most important cantrip, since it will turn your bonus action into 3 attacks for +12 to hit, 1d6+10 magical bludgeoning damage (to hit is Dex + Cha from MS, and Skellys add your Cha to all their attacks and damage). So your BA is comparable to (or better than) the standard attack routine of a Fighter lvl 11.

I can't see why magic stone would not work with danse macabre. This is good. Adds some incentive to keeping the skeletons in range (at least 3 skeletons). Which works well with how I'd like to use danse macabre. And magic stone is already on the warlock's list. This is good!

[Rukelnikov]

I am a little less enthusiastic about that for a warlock. Due to the fewer spell slots (compared to a wizard), I would really like to try and keep danse macabre as long as possible between short rests (ideally keep it for every fight from when I cast it and till I get a short rest). Which means that I want to keep it going as close to full strength as possible. So not losing minions helps a lot here. Part of why I was thinking of inspiring leader. Sending them into melee should only be something I would do if there is great need, ideally.

Well, yeah, it's better if you don't lose them, but if it was me, losing them to single target attacks is fine, they are absorbing hits, you have 2 slots every short rest (soon to be 3 if you keep going Lock), even if you have 2 encounters between short rests, and they all die in the first one you could still have 5 minions up for the second one.

Hmm, not sure if I would want to send minions into melee (the most adventurous idea I can have right now is two armored zombies and 3 skeletons). Though, to be fair, if going goo, I would definitely want it. One of the occasions where I might have all the minions go into melee would be if enemies engaged me, so I guess dissonant whispers followed by a ton of OA's could be a better use of a slot than sth like misty step or dimension door. Not sure if I would go goo though just for that, though definitely something to think more about (especially if I have allies with strong OA's).

I haven't really thought about a melee strat, when thinking about which archtype would be the best, GOO's DW jumped to mind, I'll try to think of a good one, at the baseline, I think Skeletons could dual wield since they have shortsword proficiency, and RAW can't wield shields effectively since they don't have them in their stat block, will try to build from there I guess.

I can't see why magic stone would not work with danse macabre. This is good. Adds some incentive to keeping the skeletons in range (at least 3 skeletons). Which works well with how I'd like to use danse macabre. And magic stone is already on the warlock's list. This is good!

I noticed a mistake I made when writting the formula, I put to hit = Dex + Cha, when I should have written Prof + Cha, however i'm in doubt now, are they proficient in a ranged spell attack? If i hand a magic stone to a fighter party member, does he get to add proficiency when he throws it?

Even if they don't get to add proficiency its still a superb combo, since it would still mean +10 to hit, 1d6+10 damage.

[Corran]

Well, yeah, it's better if you don't lose them, but if it was me, losing them to single target attacks is fine, they are absorbing hits, you have 2 slots every short rest (soon to be 3 if you keep going Lock), even if you have 2 encounters between short rests, and they all die in the first one you could still have 5 minions up for the second one.

That's true. Here is my worry though. If I am using danse macabre, I am pre casting. It needs preparation anyway, and the duration thankfully allows for it. Now, since what it offers is dpr, it's a spell that will be relevant almost always, so there is not much to worry about on that front. However, there will be fights where I would be better off using something else with my concentration, like a hypnotic pattern or a banishment, or maybe a hold person. Instead, I will be going with danse macabre cause as I said above the plan is to have it running before combat. Now, I lose some useful versatility doing that. What makes me think it's worth it though, is the fact that danse macabre will allow me to use more spell slots on other things, thanks to its duration (assuming more than 1 encounter between rests). And there are some useful things to do with these spell slots. Non-concentration stuff of course, like synaptic static, or counterspell (which could help against spell AoE's that can hurt us) or depending on archetype, command, plant growth, armor of agathys, etc. But in order to do that, I have to keep danse macabre in good shape. Of course, whenever it's just 1 encounter between short rests, this has not much value. But when it's only 1 encounter between short rests, my warlock will be playing close to full strength anyway, so there's not a problem. That does not mean that I wont be able to profit from having the minions go into melee and thus profit more from their increased damage (twf in the case of skeletons) and from them absorbing some hits. I'll do that in emergencies or when I am relatively certain that there is a short rest afterwards.

In short, committing that hard to a single concentration spell (even if it's generally applicable enough and a generally good spell; and even if I am not really dazzled by what other concentration options the warlock gets), seems like a drawback to me. And the thing that makes up for it and makes it even worth it imo, is the long duration and how that solves the limited spell slots problem. Of course, this is half the solution. The other half is to optimize my use of slots with no concentration spells.

I haven't really thought about a melee strat, when thinking about which archtype would be the best, GOO's DW jumped to mind, I'll try to think of a good one, at the baseline, I think Skeletons could dual wield since they have shortsword proficiency, and RAW can't wield shields effectively since they don't have them in their stat block, will try to build from there I guess.

Interested in hearing what you come up with.

I noticed a mistake I made when writting the formula, I put to hit = Dex + Cha, when I should have written Prof + Cha, however i'm in doubt now, are they proficient in a ranged spell attack? If i hand a magic stone to a fighter party member, does he get to add proficiency when he throws it?

Even if they don't get to add proficiency its still a superb combo, since it would still mean +10 to hit, 1d6+10 damage.

Good catch (about it being a spell attack). I'll ask in the RAW thread. Even then, it's still a bonus (definitely a bonus once your charisma mod is at +4 or higher). I am thinking if there is an easy and elegant way to keep it going during combat. Or even if it's possible. I am guessing it's an object interaction for the skeletons to take the pebbles from us. Though that would require staying at range and close to 3 skeletons, which is not really helping if we want to spread them out. Maybe we could use the familiar for fetch and carry. That allows us to be in melee should we wanted to (assuming a hexblade), though it probably does take away some actions from the familiar and probably restricts positioning somewhat. Maybe an unseen servant is the answer here. How did your friend go about this?

[Rukelnikov]

That's true. Here is my worry though. If I am using danse macabre, I am pre casting. It needs preparation anyway, and the duration thankfully allows for it. Now, since what it offers is dpr, it's a spell that will be relevant almost always, so there is not much to worry about on that front. However, there will be fights where I would be better off using something else with my concentration, like a hypnotic pattern or a banishment, or maybe a hold person. Instead, I will be going with danse macabre cause as I said above the plan is to have it running before combat. Now, I lose some useful versatility doing that. What makes me think it's worth it though, is the fact that danse macabre will allow me to use more spell slots on other things, thanks to its duration (assuming more than 1 encounter between rests). And there are some useful things to do with these spell slots. Non-concentration stuff of course, like synaptic static, or counterspell (which could help against spell AoE's that can hurt us) or depending on archetype, command, plant growth, armor of agathys, etc. But in order to do that, I have to keep danse macabre in good shape. Of course, whenever it's just 1 encounter between short rests, this has not much value. But when it's only 1 encounter between short rests, my warlock will be playing close to full strength anyway, so there's not a problem. That does not mean that I wont be able to profit from having the minions go into melee and thus profit more from their increased damage (twf in the case of skeletons) and from them absorbing some hits. I'll do that in emergencies or when I am relatively certain that there is a short rest afterwards.

In short, committing that hard to a single concentration spell (even if it's generally applicable enough and a generally good spell; and even if I am not really dazzled by what other concentration options the warlock gets), seems like a drawback to me. And the thing that makes up for it and makes it even worth it imo, is the long duration and how that solves the limited spell slots problem. Of course, this is half the solution. The other half is to optimize my use of slots with no concentration spells.

In general, the more focused the build the less versatility it will have, if you make a build completely centered around DM, it does mean you will lose on other options.

In the warlock case, this happens with going past lvl 11, getting low level slots and extra spells from multiclassing will make your life a lot easier than it would be if you kept going till 17 for TP or other spell. Going for another full caster, or 2 lvls of Pally + Full caster if Hexblades fixes Lock main problemof lack of slots (burning 1 of 3 5 lvl slots on a Shield sounds extremely expensive, if you have 3 1st lvl slots on top of that, not so much). Bard for Counterspelling, Necromancer for even stronger minions and animate dead (3 casts every SR lol), Cleric for Aid and Full Plate. just a couple lvls of that makes a world of difference.

Interested in hearing what you come up with.

We'll see, we are probably gonna be melee focused too.

Good catch (about it being a spell attack). I'll ask in the RAW thread. Even then, it's still a bonus (definitely a bonus once your charisma mod is at +4 or higher). I am thinking if there is an easy and elegant way to keep it going during combat. Or even if it's possible. I am guessing it's an object interaction for the skeletons to take the pebbles from us. Though that would require staying at range and close to 3 skeletons, which is not really helping if we want to spread them out. Maybe we could use the familiar for fetch and carry. That allows us to be in melee should we wanted to (assuming a hexblade), though it probably does take away some actions from the familiar and probably restricts positioning somewhat. Maybe an unseen servant is the answer here. How did your friend go about this?

My friend didn't do the Magic Stone strat, he just carried 4 Zombies (AD) in a bag of holding, and 5 skeletons in another which he used for Danse Macabre.

For the MS strat we'll probably need to be ranged focused, a melee oriented HB won't cut it. And yeah you will need to stay near the Skeletons.