Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

O-Chul explicitly raises concerns about the illegal detention of prisoners without trial in the very next strip. And then... goes along with it.

OK, so as I suspected that order didn't come from Mr. Scruffy. So it does not apply to Kish's concerns.

Any paladin can fall, based on the description of attonement they can fall accedently. I have no doubt had miko successfully killed Roy, she would have fell. Even then paladin has a built in checks and balance, they can fall easily, but attone if they have the will. I am talking about a falling from good, that was the original discussion.

...

I'm not sure what you are getting at. A Paladin whose first instinct is to murder their quarry is clearly on its way to fall from good. My original answer still applies.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Real-world monarchs don't have holy warriors who will literally lose their magic powers if they ever do something evil.

Granted, but it would seem no paladins were forced to do anything that would result in their fall during Shojo's senility charade, or at least no such incidents are shown or referenced in the comic. It would seem they managed well enough to not give any serious thought to a coup.

[Lacuna Caster]

You can if you ignore that she knew they were supposed to be tried, and didn't know what the punishment would be (she claimed there could be only one, which speaks to not having complete knowledge, and also speaks to how she thinks it should work).

If you're talking about "charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death", then she could be referring to the various atrocities committed by the Linear Guild (and, well, Belkar.) But look, this is not complicated: She says out loud that her master wants them executed. There's no way to wriggle around that.

(And it also reflects badly on Shojo that he played off something as extreme as "my most powerful paladin casually disregarded orders to bring people back alive in favor of attacking to kill," but that's 1) the opposite of a plot hole, being an early demonstration of the fatal flaw that got Shojo killed, and 2) something Lacuna will never engage with because "more people should have treated Miko like a dangerous loose cannon" is the opposite of the narrative he wants.)

Miko doesn't have to be a rabid sociopath to be a poor choice for a diplomatic mission, she just has to lack ranks in the diplomacy skill. Which... she does. And you're just... going to ignore everything else I pointed out as problematic about Shojo's plan? Really? Is that what we're doing?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Real-world monarchs don't have holy warriors who will literally lose their magic powers if they ever do something evil.

As has been well established, the pre-O-Chul paladins could get away with a lot of Evil before they fell even before Shojo faked senility. Again: as long as the cat's orders are not substantially different from Shojo's orders, or prior leadership orders (in Scar's days), I'm not sure that the paladins would consider it a serious enough development to go through with a coup, which after all could also cause them to fall.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

As has been well established, the pre-O-Chul paladins could get away with a lot of Evil before they fell even before Shojo faked senility.

It's hard to imagine exactly what kind of atrocity Shojo would have to order that was worse than what the Twelve gave permission for, sure, but at the same time... they could just be taking their orders directly from the Twelve. There's no inherent reason why Shojo would have had to be left in charge if the Gods wanted some other arrangement.

OK, so as I suspected that order didn't come from Mr. Scruffy. So it does not apply to Kish's concerns.

I'm sorry, but how does this make the paladins going along with Shojo's orders less problematic?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. A Paladin whose first instinct is to murder their quarry is clearly on its way to fall from good...

Leaving aside that "blowing up a pillar of reality" is kind of a serious crime, what is the standard for comparison here? A certain LG fighter whose first instinct is to ambush his quarry unawares and slit their throats in their sleep?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

snip

Lacuna, let me be perfectly clear:

I have absolutely no interest in ever talking to you about any topic in which Miko is involved.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

So, wait, you think "protect my homeland" is completely distinct from "protect the innocent" or "save lives," and that the latter are equivalent to "good for Good's sake"?
The way I see it, "good for Good's sake" is doing whatever is Good, because it is Good and for no other reason—Good as an ideology of its own. Meanwhile, protecting the innocent, saving lives, comforting the needy, etc are focused on achieving desired ends which are good, but not because they're trying to be Good. (There's a reason I've been capitalizing half of my Good's.)

(And as an aside, do you really think a Good motivation, e.g. "protect my family," become not-Good if one of the steps in your plan involves getting money? Or do you not think that "protect my family" is a Good motivation? Neither of those seems right.)

I'm starting to think you think Good is an arbitrary label and not a set of principles.

[Peelee]

If you're talking about "charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death", then she could be referring to the various atrocities committed by the Linear Guild (and, well, Belkar.)

Those were things she heard in passing, but certainly not charges. Unless, of course, you would like to say that she was unstable enough even early on to the point of hearing what she wanted to hear and disregarding reality. The flip side, of course, is hearing what she wanted to hear and disregarding reality from Shojo instead of from random people she talked to.

So, ya know, six in one.

[hamishspence]

She says out loud that her master wants them executed.

Which implies strongly that "crimes for which the only possible sentence is death": consists of Destroying The Gate.

Since, contrary to:

If you're talking about "charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death", then she could be referring to the various atrocities committed by the Linear Guild (and, well, Belkar.)

Shojo knows nothing about the Linear Guild's actions.

It's also clear that she doesn't quite get the possibility of "trial and possible acquittal". Hence her modified description of of Shojo's orders into "Shojo has decreed their execution".

[Peelee]

Shojo knows nothing about the Linear Guild's actions.

LC is referring to things Miko heard along the way. Which, as I noted, were not charges in any way she should have carried out under her own justification for universal jurisdiction.

[Ruck]

I feel some pity for Miko when I read her story again. Trouble is, I don't feel enough, because she blinds herself to any possibility that she might be wrong, and that leads directly to her fall. O-Chul shows us that a Paladin's greatest strength is humility. She has none.

I feel some pity for Miko because it's possible that under a different set of circumstances, she would have turned out differently. However, she's fully responsible for her own actions, and it's also possible that her trigger-happiness would have always come out, even if she hadn't been orphaned and taken in by Shojo.

Only because you're not willing to entertain the possibility that Miko was at fault there by virtue of being so eager to kill that she distorted her orders, either consciously or subconsciously.

There's a super simple way to reconcile all that info, Lacuna, it just reflects badly on Miko so you don't want to accept it. The canon is not the problem here.

No wonder Lacuna is always exhausted by these conversations he just winds up responding to, when he has to keep inventing explanations that explicitly contradict the text to justify his view of Miko.

[hamishspence]

LC is referring to things Miko heard along the way.

The point I'm trying to make is that Miko's claiming their execution has already been decreed by Shojo.

Thus it doesn't make sense for "charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death" to be things she picked up along the way -

unless she was in constant contact with Shojo and she told him about the "Order's actions" (actually Linear Guild's actions) and he told her "they are now sentenced to death"

Which does not fit at all with the existing narrative.

As for

Miko has never lied, to the best of our ability to tell.

it should be said that this statement was made long before we saw Shojo and found out what his actual orders were.

[Prinygod]

Lacuna, let me be perfectly clear:

I have absolutely no interest in ever talking to you about any topic in which Miko is involved.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

"Leaving aside that "blowing up a pillar of reality" is kind of a serious crime, what is the standard for comparison here? A certain LG fighter whose first instinct is to ambush his quarry unawares and slit their throats in their sleep? "

You only don't want to respond becuase they have a point, you already set Roy as a contrast to miko. Is Roy not also on the path to falling from good? Oh wait you already said you don't want to talk to me either, yet you came back all the same. Just admit you have no principals in debate, declaring nonpersonhood as you please.

[Fyraltari]

OK, so as I suspected that order didn't come from Mr. Scruffy. So it does not apply to Kish's concerns

Okay, I misremembered the scene a bit, but that doesn’t affect the underlying point. If the paladins are only tolerating Shojo’s madness because it hasn’t gone far enough to cause him to give orders that they would object to, then him ordering something they object to should be a bigger deal.

[The Aboleth]

"Leaving aside that "blowing up a pillar of reality" is kind of a serious crime, what is the standard for comparison here? A certain LG fighter whose first instinct is to ambush his quarry unawares and slit their throats in their sleep? "

You only don't want to respond becuase they have a point, you already set Roy as a contrast to miko. Is Roy not also on the path to falling from good? Oh wait you already said you don't want to talk to me either, yet you came back all the same. Just admit you have no principals in debate, declaring nonpersonhood as you please.

I think GWc no longer wishes to engage with LC because the latter has admitted to disregarding entire sections of canon. Hard to have a discussion with someone when that person essentially covers their ears and goes "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" whenever they are confronted with in-comic evidence that paints Miko in a bad light.

I might be wrong, though, so GWc feel free to correct me if I have mistaken your intent.

[Ruck]

lYou only don't want to respond becuase they have a point ... Just admit you have no principals in debate, declaring nonpersonhood as you please.

Did you just sign up for this forum yesterday? Because it's incredibly rich, not to mention wildly insulting, to suggest that someone who doesn't want to engage Lacuna on the topic of Miko only chooses so for those reasons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, I misremembered the scene a bit, but that doesn’t affect the underlying point. If the paladins are only tolerating Shojo’s madness because it hasn’t gone far enough to cause him to give orders that they would object to, then him ordering something they object to should be a bigger deal.

Which is why I explicitly mentioned "out of line with previous orders". O-Chul is trying to reform the paladins from the inside, but that usually requires picking one's battles. If the Paladins do have the legal right to jail people without informing the city authorities (and I can perfectly believe that is a power they'd be granted), from O-Chul's perspective this is just another thing he needs to work on fixing, but it is not an immediate concern that he needs to chose as the hill he'll die on, not when there are bigger issues like the recent collapse of one of the gates.

(There is also quite a bit of early installment weirdness going on, I have to say)

I think GWc no longer wishes to engage with LC because the latter has admitted to disregarding entire sections of canon. Hard to have a discussion with someone when that person essentially covers their ears and goes "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" whenever they are confronted with in-comic evidence that paints Miko in a bad light.

I might be wrong, though, so GWc feel free to correct me if I have mistaken your intent.

Correct

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Ah, I didn't quite get your meaning.

[Prinygod]

Did you just sign up for this forum yesterday? Because it's incredibly rich, not to mention wildly insulting, to suggest that someone who doesn't want to engage Lacuna on the topic of Miko only chooses so for those reasons.

No I am aware of their stance, I find it shocking, but I am not personally offended by them. I am aware of yours as well, you are on a personal crusade to remind everyone that they are a non-person. Just because others don't comment on it does not mean they didn't see threads. The fact that miko keeps coming up is not their fault, and I think they have a right to participate, despite any disagreements I might have with them. If don't want to engage them or who ever you wish, fine, but don't expect everyone to follow suit.

[Ruck]

No I am aware of their stance, I find it shocking, but I am not personally offended by them. I am aware of yours as well, you are on a personal crusade to remind everyone that they are a non-person.

Maybe you should stop insultingly mischaracterizing people's positions when you respond to them. (You and Lacuna have that in common, anyway.)

[Prinygod]

I think GWc no longer wishes to engage with LC because the latter has admitted to disregarding entire sections of canon. Hard to have a discussion with someone when that person essentially covers their ears and goes "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" whenever they are confronted with in-comic evidence that paints Miko in a bad light.

I might be wrong, though, so GWc feel free to correct me if I have mistaken your intent.

And what does that have to do with this thread? He likes to throw out Ad hominem this or that, like their red cards. But he just did the classic, "I don't have to respond do your point because you are illegitimate" ad hominem attack.

[Prinygod]

Maybe you should stop insultingly mischaracterizing people's positions when you respond to them. (You and Lacuna have that in common, anyway.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_non_grata

[Keltest]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_non_grata

Lacuna has been sufficiently dishonest in previous discussions involving Miko that trying to engage with them on the subject is a waste of time. Presumably, Grey Wolf has better things to do than get pointlessly frustrated trying to have an honest discussion with somebody who isn't interested.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_non_grata

non-person.

You didn't say "persona non grata", you used an antisemtic slur, and claimed I had used it.

Which, by the way, is a much better reason never to talk to you specifically than anything Lacuna has ever done.

Grey Wolf

[The Aboleth]

And what does that have to do with this thread?

Technically very little, but this thread went off the rails a long time ago. I was specifically responding to this (emphasis mine):

You only don't want to respond becuase they have a point, you already set Roy as a contrast to miko. Is Roy not also on the path to falling from good? Oh wait you already said you don't want to talk to me either, yet you came back all the same. Just admit you have no principals in debate, declaring nonpersonhood as you please.

Simply put: I was debunking the bolded assertion, because the assertion was wrong.

[Fyraltari]

You didn't say "persona non grata", you used an antisemtic slur, and claimed I had used it.

Is it really used antisemtically? I only hear it when talking about Stalin's idea of managing human ressources.

[Mightymosy]

You didn't say "persona non grata", you used an antisemtic slur, and claimed I had used it.

Which, by the way, is a much better reason never to talk to you specifically than anything Lacuna has ever done.

Grey Wolf

Careful.....I just looked through the rules because of that PM thing, and I stumbled over an additional limitation: Forbidden topics are also forbidden to link to....

[Prinygod]

Careful.....I just looked through the rules because of that PM thing, and I stumbled over an additional limitation: Forbidden topics are also forbidden to link to....

It's also a smear, it's sad what he would resort too this then actually address the topic or reasonable points

Definition of nonperson

: a person who is regarded as nonexistent: such as
a : unperson
b : one having no social or legal status

per·so·na non gra·ta
/ˌpərˌsōnə ˌnän ˈɡrädə/
noun
an unacceptable or unwelcome person.

Nothing about the aforementioned forbidden topic they are interchangable when not used in legal context

[GreatWyrmGold]

They're both Law enforcement and Good enforcement!

...Alright, that was a good response, if kinda Chaotic.

That's called "Extraordinary Rendition" where I come from, buckaroos. And it's not a Good act to invade another sovereignty without provocation, even if you claim you're protecting your homeland by doing so. That's called "a flimsy excuse".

I wasn't involved in this discussion, Paul. I was talking about a hypothetical soldier in WW2 and whether Motivation X would count as "doing good for Good's sake".

I think Shojo deserves a share of the blame for telling Miko that the orders to bring the Order back alive came from his cat. (And in general, I find it highly problematic that the Sapphire Guard didn't take steps to remove him as soon as they came to believe their leader was insane.)

Soon apparently didn't think to write an "In case the lord of Azure City becomes incapable of performing their duties but has not committed any crimes which would allow him to be lawfully removed from office" clause, leaving the paladins with no steps they could take to remove him.

But this "that panel never happened, 'cause Miko wouldn't disobey orders" stuff is quite unambiguously Lacuna demonstrating his chutzpah again.

And not their intelligence; Miko makes it pretty clear how she was obeying those orders and why she didn't think she could bring in somebody so obviously evil.

...

I'm not sure what you are getting at. A Paladin whose first instinct is to murder their quarry is clearly on its way to fall from good. My original answer still applies.

Grey Wolf

If I were Prinygod, I'd point out that the operative phrase there is on its way. Miko was on the path to changing alignment since at least the time she met the Order, but that doesn't mean she crossed that threshold before she died. In fact, since she didn't even cross the threshold of "losing paladin powers" until maybe a day or two before she died, and she didn't do anything especially un-Good or un-Lawful during that time (unless you count "following in O-Chul's footsteps at the wrong time"), it seems unlikely that she crossed that threshold at all. Now, if she had survived the throne room explosion, she probably would have drifted to LN sooner or later, but that doesn't mean she had crossed that line before her death.
I'll admit this argument is based on the implicit assumption that you lose your paladin powers before you drift out of LG alignment (barring sudden supernatural shifts in alignment), but that seems like an easy assumption to defend. The paladin's code is called out as being more strict than any alignment's "code" at least a few times, so it stands to reason that you'd have to stick more than a toe out of line to get near the LG/LN boundary.

I'm starting to think you think Good is an arbitrary label and not a set of principles.

It's an arbitrary label applied to a set of principles. "Doing good for Good's sake" is doing good for that label, and is distinct from "Doing good for my homeland's sake" or "Doing good for my family's sake" or even "Doing good for the world's sake". Doing good for Good's sake is, by definition, doing good for the sake of Good.
Since you're trying to avoid answering my questions to you, I can't really explain my position on this matter any better.

"Leaving aside that "blowing up a pillar of reality" is kind of a serious crime, what is the standard for comparison here? A certain LG fighter whose first instinct is to ambush his quarry unawares and slit their throats in their sleep? "

You only don't want to respond becuase they have a point, you already set Roy as a contrast to miko.

Well, aside from the fact that Roy hasn't ever thought about slitting his enemy's throats in their sleep. (As far as I can remember, the closest he's come is pointing this out as basically the only non-work-with-him option he had with Belkar, as something he knew he shouldn't have done.) And the fact that Roy's LG-ness is pretty explicitly shaky, which is why we compare him and Miko in the first place.

Lacuna has been sufficiently dishonest in previous discussions involving Miko that trying to engage with them on the subject is a waste of time. Presumably, Grey Wolf has better things to do than get pointlessly frustrated trying to have an honest discussion with somebody who isn't interested.

And I apparently don't, so...

Spoiler: Lacuna Matata

Show

Well, hang on a second. The verdict of the trial was 'not guilty', and while one might disagree with that verdict or point out the various other things the Order were guilty of, I would at least expect Miko to respect that verdict if she went to the trouble of bringing the defendants back alive in the first place.

How can she respect the verdict if she doesn't know the verdict? She was on the roof when it was declared, and nobody told her the verdict was "Not Guilty" until after she stopped trying to execute Belkar the moment Shojo told her to. And after she threatened holy retribution on the Order, for that matter; if she was ever explicitly told the result of the first trial, it was off-panel.

Well, yes. I have been arguing extensively that the canon of OOTS basically goes out the window as soon as Eugene was revealed to be the BoPLaG.

I find the counterarguments in that thread far more compelling than your arguments, which seem to be based off of too many assumptions. The assumptions are not, in a vacuum, bad ones, but I don't see enough reason to make assumptions instead of ones that fit the story as told.

No, I'm just profoundly unclear on why, exactly, we're considering Shojo's word to be in any sense a reliable form of evidence here, from either the watsonian or doylist perspective.

No matter who's talking, what a character says at a given moment is excellent evidence for what a character says at that given moment.

Shojo: "Actually, Mr Scruffy says you should try hard to bring them back alive."
Miko: "*sigh* As your cat wishes, master. If it is possible."
Shojo: "FOR IMMEDIATE EXECUTION"

Would this behaviour on Shojo's part be kind of deranged and schizoid? Sure. But no more bizarre than... everything else I noted.

You're wrong on every account. It wouldn't fit with how Shojo's fake senility is portrayed in general, with how Miko treats the orders that were given in that flashback, and with what the "cinematic language" is telling us. Also with how Shojo's tone would need to abruptly change from an appropriately Shojo tone to one that Tarquin would consider too over-the-top.

If you're talking about "charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death", then she could be referring to the various atrocities committed by the Linear Guild (and, well, Belkar.) But look, this is not complicated: She says out loud that her master wants them executed. There's no way to wriggle around that.

When? You can't be referring to the "My blades shall be bathed in their blood" line, because that order is immediately contradicted by Shojo('s cat)'s next order.

[hamishspence]

Well, aside from the fact that Roy hasn't ever thought about slitting his enemy's throats in their sleep.

I believe this was what was being referred to:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html