The Whale Wrestler, an AMF Grappler

[ShurikVch]

I believe that's maxed out with Tail+Gore+Bite+2 claws.

Aboleth Tentacle:

An aboleth tentacle typically replaces an arm or forelimb on the grafted creature, though sometimes it is attached just above a forelimb or below an arm.

Up to +4 tentacles (by 50000 gp apiece)
Buffeting Wings (Races of the Dragon) give two wing slams (while not in fly); 100000 gp
Depending on interpretation of Warshaper, you may grow, say, shocking touch

It looks like Powerful Build doesn't actually work

Stonebone Creature template:

Powerful Build: A stonebone creature grows thick, heavy bones.
The physical stature of the stonebone creature lets it function in many ways as if it were one size category larger. Whenever a stonebone creature is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the stonebone creature is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to it. A stonebone creature is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect it. A stonebone creature can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. Its space and reach remain those of a creature of its actual size. The benefits of this special quality stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
A Colossal creature gains no benefit from this special quality.

Other upsides of the template: +4 Str and Con
Downsides: -10 land speed, -20 swim speed, and -4 on Dex, Climb and Swim checks; LA: +2

[Anthrowhale]

Aboleth Tentacle:
Up to +4 tentacles (by 50000 gp apiece)

This is very good. It also plausibly means +2 for multigrabs using the tentacles getting us up to a round +50 grapple bonus, and it has a nasty rider with Aboleth transformation. Edit: altogether, this pushes the Fort-or-unconscious DC to ~210, which is well past "enough".

Buffeting Wings (Races of the Dragon) give two wing slams (while not in fly); 100000 gp

This is one of the 'new grafts' which implies removing everything except for up to 4 other dragon grafts. It's not a good tradeoff.

Depending on interpretation of Warshaper, you may grow, say, shocking touch

We definitely don't have room for Warshaper.

Stonebone Creature template:

Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).

[ShurikVch]

Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).

How about the "considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size" part?

[Zarvistic]

How are you calculating your save DC btw? With your high bab you have 4 iteratives I think, so it seems like the damage and DC would be a lot higher than the 200 you mention, no?

If I am not wrong, it seems like the black blood cultist levels are kinda doing nothing. Yea, a lot more damage but nobody is making the DC even if those levels aren't there. Perhaps an idea to shore up defenses using those 8 levels instead of going for the overkill.

[Anthrowhale]

How about the "considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size" part?

This seems to be defensive-only, and you can already use a grapple roll against colossal opponents to escape a hold. It's only on offense when imposing a hold (or, using improved grab) that opponent size limits available options.

How are you calculating your save DC btw? With your high bab you have 4 iteratives I think, so it seems like the damage and DC would be a lot higher than the 200 you mention, no?

The DC is from fierce grappler and is 15+damage. You don't get iteratives with natural attacks, but with 9 natural attacks I'm not complaining. Furthermore, if you've multigrabbed 9 opponents the damage applies to all of them which is fairly potent. In other words, the total damage is proportional to the square of the number of natural attacks.

If I am not wrong, it seems like the black blood cultist levels are kinda doing nothing. Yea, a lot more damage but nobody is making the DC even if those levels aren't there. Perhaps an idea to shore up defenses using those 8 levels instead of going for the overkill.

Without Black Blood Cultist, you lose the squaring effect of multigrab + BBC 8 and the damage would decline to ~23.5, making the save vs. unconscious ~38. That's potent but sometimes survivable. For example, a Balor has Fort+22 implying succeeding 25% of the time. Black Blood Cultist also provides a move action Coup de Grace, which is highly complementary to knocking unconscious.

Perhaps an important question is: what would a good defensive alternative be?

[Zarvistic]

This seems to be defensive-only, and you can already use a grapple roll against colossal opponents to escape a hold. It's only on offense when imposing a hold (or, using improved grab) that opponent size limits available options.

The DC is from fierce grappler and is 15+damage. You don't get iteratives with natural attacks, but with 9 natural attacks I'm not complaining. Furthermore, if you've multigrabbed 9 opponents the damage applies to all of them which is fairly potent. In other words, the total damage is proportional to the square of the number of natural attacks.

Without Black Blood Cultist, you lose the squaring effect of multigrab + BBC 8 and the damage would decline to ~23.5, making the save vs. unconscious ~38. That's potent but sometimes survivable. For example, a Balor has Fort+22 implying succeeding 25% of the time. Black Blood Cultist also provides a move action Coup de Grace, which is highly complementary to knocking unconscious.

Perhaps an important question is: what would a good defensive alternative be?

Ah ok, well I was thinking you could just use 4 regular iterative attacks in a follow up turn to make grapple checks instead of attacking so that'd still be 4 times the damage and a DC of over 100.

As is tho, if you hit a target with 9 of your attacks, you're doing 81 times the damage or is that wrong? Assuming each improved grab would be a succesful grapple to trigger savage grapple. This makes me think, what about getting the constrict ability somehow, so the 9 initial attacks would already do damage through improved grab/constrict for the purpose of fierce grappler DC.

For defensive options, maybe something with monk. Something like monk 3/shintao monk 4 seems a good start and gives 4 good bonus feats without having to meet prerequisites, evasion, wisdom ac bonus, bit of speed, immunity to stun, sleep, slow and +7 to saves. If shintao monk doesn't seem worth it, then monk could be just 2 raging monk levels instead, which gives you same as your barb level as well as 2 bonus feats which you took in your build anyway, better saves, ac bonus and evasion. The freed up feats could be used for like extra rage and mad foam rager. I'm sure there's more options available but this is what came to mind right now.

[Anthrowhale]

Ah ok, well I was thinking you could just use 4 regular iterative attacks in a follow up turn to make grapple checks instead of attacking so that'd still be 4 times the damage and a DC of over 100.

There are two distinct synergies here, so perhaps it's better to discuss them separately.

1. Scaled Horror's Improved Grab works with unarmed and natural attacks and offers an option where you are not considered grappled but the improved grab attacked-and-grappled creature is with the natural attack used.
2. Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple converts all natural attacks into grapple damage on a successful grapple check.

Scaled Horror 1+feats allows you to greater multigrab 9 opponents and then Black Blood Cultist allows you to damage each of them with all 9 natural attacks. Technically, this isn't an attack (i.e. no minimum 5% chance of a miss, no chance of a critical hit), since it's just grapple check, then roll lots of damage.

1. Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple converts all natural attacks into grapple damage.
2. Fierce Grappler's Choke Out DC keys off grapple damage after any full round in which you pin an opponent.
3. Black Blood Cultist's Strangelhold provides a move-action Coup de Grace with a bite attack.

This loop could operate once every other round via Full Attack(Improved Grab, Pin (in place of an iterative), Savage Grapple (in place of an iterative)), wait until next round, Choke Out DC activates based on savage grapple damage, Move action(Stranglehold bite for coup de grace).

Losing out on Fierce Grappler may make more sense than losing Black Blood Cultist since that leaves one of these synergies intact.

As is tho, if you hit a target with 9 of your attacks, you're doing 81 times the damage or is that wrong? Assuming each improved grab would be a succesful grapple to trigger savage grapple. This makes me think, what about getting the constrict ability somehow, so the 9 initial attacks would already do damage through improved grab/constrict for the purpose of fierce grappler DC.

It looks like you could just apply more iteratives to generate more damage in the second loop. There are Yuan-Ti tail grafts that enable constrict, but they only work with small (losing a tail attack) or medium (losing a tail attack and giving up on legs) creatures.

For defensive options, maybe something with monk. Something like monk 3/shintao monk 4 seems a good start and gives 4 good bonus feats without having to meet prerequisites, evasion, wisdom ac bonus, bit of speed, immunity to stun, sleep, slow and +7 to saves. If shintao monk doesn't seem worth it, then monk could be just 2 raging monk levels instead, which gives you same as your barb level as well as 2 bonus feats which you took in your build anyway, better saves, ac bonus and evasion. The freed up feats could be used for like extra rage and mad foam rager. I'm sure there's more options available but this is what came to mind right now.

AMF is a pretty strong defense which obviates many/most sources of sleep/slow/evasion, but saves vs poison, stun, and fear inside of an AMF are pretty relevant.

[Zarvistic]

I don't think I follow that loop. If you just full attack with your natural weapons, isn't that giving you 9 improved grabs and so 81x the damage? Is it possible to choose not to move at step 4 of the grapple and so not be in a grapple between these attacks?

I suppose that still leaves BBC 8 but like you said maybe fierce grappler can go. Maybe its great as is tho, just the crazy high numbers on damage or DC seem like overdoing it in that area perhaps.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't think I follow that loop. If you just full attack with your natural weapons, isn't that giving you 9 improved grabs and so 81x the damage? Is it possible to choose not to move at step 4 of the grapple and so not be in a grapple between these attacks?

The wording for Savage Grapple is a bit ambiguous.

...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check.

Is that a rider to all grapple checks or an option when making a grapple check? It's not entirely clear and I've been bouncing between the interpretations. At the moment, I'm thinking it's a rider, in which case it would apply to every improved grab (yikes).

I suppose that still leaves BBC 8 but like you said maybe fierce grappler can go. Maybe its great as is tho, just the crazy high numbers on damage or DC seem like overdoing it in that area perhaps.

I agree. It seems we could drop either Black Blood Cultist or Fierce Grappler (but perhaps not both), and have a reasonably effective grappling build.

[Zarvistic]

The wording for Savage Grapple is a bit ambiguous.

Is that a rider to all grapple checks or an option when making a grapple check? It's not entirely clear and I've been bouncing between the interpretations. At the moment, I'm thinking it's a rider, in which case it would apply to every improved grab (yikes).


I agree. It seems we could drop either Black Blood Cultist or Fierce Grappler (but perhaps not both), and have a reasonably effective grappling build.

It seems like it's a rider to me too. With that in mind, what do you think about scorpions grasp? It doesn't seem to have the limitation of size so could get those grapple checks in up to two sizes up.

Also noticed huntsman druid could get both the track feat and the octopus using urban companion and some extras.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Mohrg's Tongue (Libris Mortis)? It's natural attack, yes? So, tongue grab?..

[Elves]

Is the damage from Savage Grapple replacing or adding to the normal US damage you deal with a successful grapple? Or was the writer thinking of US as a natural weapon, even though it typically isn't?

[ShurikVch]

Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).

I wouldn't be so sure about it:

In some cases, an action is a straight test of one's ability with no luck involved. Just as you wouldn't make a height check to see who is taller, you don’t make a Strength check to see who is stronger.

If "height" is an opposed check, then why not size?

[Anthrowhale]

It seems like it's a rider to me too. With that in mind, what do you think about scorpions grasp? It doesn't seem to have the limitation of size so could get those grapple checks in up to two sizes up.

There is no Greater Multigrab for Scorpion's Grasp, so it seems marginal. As an alternative, you can just initiate a grapple the basic improved grapple way, which seems only marginally worse.

Also noticed huntsman druid could get both the track feat and the octopus using urban companion and some extras.

Interesting. The other reason why Ranger is chosen is for Hide/Move Silently. They could be bought cross-class, but that would delay Scaled Horror until ECL 8 rather than ECL 6, which seem pretty undesirable. You could use:

Huntsman Druid: Urban Companion[Octopus] + Track
Survivalist Fighter (Dragon #310): Power Attack + Hide/MS
City Brawler Barbarian (Dragon #349): Rage + Improved Unarmed Strike

This has 2 fewer skill points, 2 worse reflex save, and a wisdom bonus to AC. That might be a worthwhile tradeoff? Is there any other way to get Power Attack + Hide/MS with BAB+1?

How about the Mohrg's Tongue (Libris Mortis)? It's natural attack, yes? So, tongue grab?..

Apparently, yes, since it's a secondary attack and only natural attacks can be secondary attacks. It's also a touch attack, which is pretty interesting. The paralyzation won't work often at high levels, but the improved grab rider is potent. Strength damage doesn't apply? (Because there is no base damage to add it to?)

Is the damage from Savage Grapple replacing or adding to the normal US damage you deal with a successful grapple? Or was the writer thinking of US as a natural weapon, even though it typically isn't?

I'm thinking "adding" at the moment, but it's rather ambiguously worded.

If "height" is an opposed check, then why not size?

"you wouldn't make a height check" suggests that height is not a check at all. If it's not a check, then it's not an opposed check.

[Zarvistic]

How about this: duid 1/barbarian 1 and then straight into BBC. Qualify for multigrab through bear totem but take scorpions grasp for actual use in the amf and 2 sizes up instead of only equal. Power attack or stunning fist no longer needed and there's 7 free levels after BBC 8.

[Anthrowhale]

How about this: duid 1/barbarian 1 and then straight into BBC. Qualify for multigrab through bear totem but take scorpions grasp for actual use in the amf and 2 sizes up instead of only equal. Power attack or stunning fist no longer needed and there's 7 free levels after BBC 8.

There's a problem here:

...you may hold a creature one or more sizes smaller than you with your off hand....

Losing the ability to limb grapple large creatures seems like a very substantial loss.

[Elves]

I'm thinking "adding" at the moment, but it's rather ambiguously worded.

To be fair it's not relevant to your improved grab attacks anyway.

Interesting. The other reason why Ranger is chosen is for Hide/Move Silently. They could be bought cross-class, but that would delay Scaled Horror until ECL 8 rather than ECL 6, which seem pretty undesirable.

Hide/MS aren't an issue since Black Blood cultist has them.

ranks with 10 int:
RHD - 2 surv, 2 EA, 1 Hide, 1 MS
Bbn - 4 surv
Druid - 2 nature, 2 surv
Cultist - 4 Hide
Cultist - 4 MS
>scaled horror

vs.

RHD - 2 EA, 2 Hide, 2 MS
Bbn - 4 surv
Rgr - 3 Hide, 3 MS
Scaled Horror - 4 surv
Wiz 1 - 2 nature
>cultist

Delaying scaled horror by 2 levels isn't great but the freed level is better from a build perspective.

This has another advantage: you can replace bbn 1 with raging monk 1 to get Stunning Fist as well as IUS. Since it's as barbarian, makes sense for Cultist levels to also stack with it. Maybe not strictest RAW but it's the kind of leap I would feel comfortable making. Nvm, leaves you short 1 BAB.

What the best full BAB dip is for the druid build is up for debate. Warblade/crusader has the advantage of maneuvers being Ex. The dip could get you crushing weight of the mountain stance for an extra 2d6+1.5*str damage on your grabs. Warblade also gives your EWP versatility. But have to sub PA for Kdev.

[Anthrowhale]

To be fair it's not relevant to your improved grab attacks anyway.

Pinning down exactly what's going on was pretty difficult, so I tried to write things out Q&A style and in the process changed my mind on some questions. Do you (dis)agree with any of the below? And what's the reasoning?

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: No. When using a limb hold, you are not grappling so the "if you are grappling" options are irrelevant. The only limitation is: "can use its _remaining_ attacks against other opponents".

Q: When using a limb hold option with improved grab, how many grapple checks can the creature initiate on held opponents?
A: None, since the creature initiating the improved grab is not grappling. It can however respond with grapple checks against attempts to escape (for example), and these cause damage on success as per the text of improved grab.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: No. A grapple check is not an attack roll even though it can be used in place of an attack and is based off of BAB. Note that the 'attack your opponent' option does use an attack roll (with a -4 penalty).

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: It's ambiguous, but a conservative choice is that it's an option.

Reasoning: The wording is highly ambiguous. "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."
A rider to successful grapple checks would say: "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on every successful grapple check."
An option when grappling would be: "... you may deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."

Either could the be intention, but the insertion of 'may' is less disruptive than the change of 'a' to 'every' and it results in less absurdity.

Q: What kind of action is Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple?
A: Maybe an iterative grapple check? The text says very little here. A grapple check is required, so it could be an iterative, a move action, a standard action, or a full round action. The closest analog in terms of mechanics and outcomes is the "damage your opponent" option for a grapple check which uses an iterative.

Q: If you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple" on a grappled opponent while holding some other opponent with an improved grab limb, do you apply the natural attack damage from the holding limb?
A: No? Savage Grapple says "_all_ your natural weapons" while Improved Grab says "...can use its _remaining_ attacks against _other_ opponents." There is a rules conflict in which a DM could decide either way. The more intuitive and conservative choice is "no".

Q: If an opponent is grappled by a limb using improved grab, what happens when using a full attack action?
A: Every other natural attack can be executed against an opponent and you can possibly perform iterative attacks.

Q: When pinning an opponent, can you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple"?
A: A Pin is made in place of an (iterative) attack so if a Savage Grapple also takes an iterative attack, it can be done when the BAB is 6+.

RHD - 2 surv, 2 EA, 1 Hide, 1 MS

I believe the only class skills are listen, spot, and swim. I was imagining maxing out Listen and Spot, then using the retraining rules once Hide/MS becomes an option. Hence, the cumulative ranks would look like:

RHD 3: 4 Spot, 4 Listen, 4 Swim
Ranger 1: 5 Hide, 1 MS, 2 Knowledge[Nature], 2 Survival, 4 Spot, 4 Listen, 0 Swim
Barbarian 1: 5 Hide, 5 MS, 2 Knowledge[Nature], 6 Survival, 4 Spot, 0 Listen, 0 Swim
Scaled Horror 1: 5 Hide, 5 MS, 2 Knowledge[Nature], 8 Survival, 4 Spot, 0 Listen, 0 Swim, 1 Escape Artist(cross class)
Cultist 1:


You could instead:

RHD 3: 2 Hide (cc), 0 MS(cc), 4 Spot, 4 Listen
Huntsman Druid 1: 2 Hide (cc), 0 MS(cc), 0 Spot, 4 Listen, 2 K[Nature], 6 Survival
Barbarian 1: 2 Hide (cc), 0 MS(cc), 0 Spot, 4 Listen, 2 K[Nature], 8 Survival, 1 Escape Artist (cc)
Cultist 1: 5 Hide, 5 MS, 0 Spot, 0 Listen, 2 K[Nature], 8 Survival, 1 Escape Artist (cc)
Cultist 1: <needed for BAB>
Scaled Horror 1

What the best full BAB dip is for the druid build is up for debate. Warblade/crusader has the advantage of maneuvers being Ex. The dip could get you crushing weight of the mountain stance for an extra 2d6+1.5*str damage on your grabs. Warblade also gives your EWP versatility. But have to sub PA for Kdev.

The text of warblade specifies that the first stance must be 1st level. Other ideas?

[Zarvistic]

Exoticist fighter for the ewp and another feat could be good?
There's of course 2nd barbarian level too for improved trip, as an alternative to grapple. Especially if knock-down can fit in anywhere.

Also I think dragon totem for the barbarian 1 level for the blind-fight feat might be more useful than the 10 extra speed.

[Elves]

The text of warblade specifies that the first stance must be 1st level. Other ideas?

I think this is overstated. It says "you begin play" with knowledge of a 1st-level stance. That seems to be written with the intent of introducing a player to the class with the assumption that they start at 1st level; you're not "beginning play" if you enter the class at a higher level. There's no reason stances shouldn't follow the general rule for maneuvers and multiclassing.

I'll read into the grapple/pin stuff when I have a moment.

[Anthrowhale]

I added Mohrg's Tongue to the OP. 10 improved grabs is pretty impressive.

Exoticist fighter for the ewp and another feat could be good?

Yeah, exoticist would free up another feat, although I'm not sure how to use that yet. Extra Rage is ok, I guess.

There's of course 2nd barbarian level too for improved trip, as an alternative to grapple. Especially if knock-down can fit in anywhere.

The prone condition doesn't seem to be as good as the grappled condition, particularly grappled-in-an-AMF?

Also I think dragon totem for the barbarian 1 level for the blind-fight feat might be more useful than the 10 extra speed.

ABW grants blindsight 60' in atmosphere or 120' in the water, so blind-fight seems marginal, particularly in an AMF where silence can't be imposed easily.

I think this is overstated. It says "you begin play" with knowledge of a 1st-level stance. That seems to be written with the intent of introducing a player to the class with the assumption that they start at 1st level; you're not "beginning play" if you enter the class at a higher level. There's no reason stances shouldn't follow the general rule for maneuvers and multiclassing.

It's not super-clear, but I could imagine DMs ruling against and it seems good to avoid rules controversies.

There are of course many other good things that Warblade brings to the table. The loss of Knowledge Devotion is painful though as that bonus to hit makes a big difference in success rates for improved grapple.

[Maat Mons]

Adding the Mohrg's Tongue seems to argue for a different name for the build.

[Anthrowhale]

The two strategies aren't meshing well in my understanding. Consider: combat starts and Improved Grab for a limb hold is applied to all enemies.

At this point, there are two options.
(a) Convert one limb hold to a grapple, and apply savage grapple (possibly repeatedly). This does substantial damage, although it's reduced depending on the limbs holding enemy creatures. This requires 8 class levels.
(b) Convert one limb hold to a grapple, pin, add some damage, apply chokeout (Fierce Grappler 5), and then stranglehold (Black Blood Cultist 5) for the kill. This requires 10 class levels.
Both of these are good combos, but the synergy of (a) with (b) is limited since (b) works well enough without (a).

Method (b) is more limited, since it requires opponents vulnerable to critical hits and to strangulation.

[Elves]

Adding the Mohrg's Tongue seems to argue for a different name for the build.

lmao, +1ing this

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: No. When using a limb hold, you are not grappling so the "if you are grappling" options are irrelevant. The only limitation is: "can use its _remaining_ attacks against other opponents".

So your concern is that while using improved grab's "hold" option, you can't pin your opponent (and thus can't use FG chokehold) because you don't count as grappling?

If true, this would also mean you can't move and bring your grappled target with you or take the damage your opponent action in a special hold (or use opponent's weapon, or break another's pin).

That would be disappointing, but looks possible. I'll list the arguments I could see against it:

- The wording of Multigrab is, "When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...". Thus, you are still grappling them when using a special hold, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself -- so maybe you can still take grapple actions against them.

- If your target continues to be grappling, it must be true that you are, quote, "maintaining a grapple" against them, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself. So again, maybe you can take grapple actions against them.

- When the book says "it isn’t considered grappled itself. Thus, the creature isn’t denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents", 'thus' could be comprehensive of the effects.

- After all, there's a difference in the language: "grappling" versus being considered "grappled [yourself]". Maybe that's meant as a differentiation that only excludes you from the downsides of grappling.

- Certain actions, like damage your opponent, say they can be performed "while grappling". But "You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling" doesn't mean you can only cast a spell while grappling. So maybe even if you aren't "yourself grappled", you can still take those actions if you are maintaining a grapple against someone. Since the conditions under which you can or cannot take those special actions is never explicitly stated -- "while grappling", in context, only means that they are among the actions you can take while grappling -- the common sense interpretation might be that you can take them against any target you are grappling, which per the first 2 points, we know you are.

- The action we're talking about, Pin, doesn't even say "while grappling". It has no conditionality attached. This could strengthen the argument for a common sense reading -- you can do it to a target that you're grappling, which per Multigrab we know you are.

I'm not sure these are convincing, but I will say that from an RAI standpoint, it's unclear to me whether the hold option is just supposed to be a grapple penalty in exchange for being exempt from the listed downsides, or is also supposed to mean you can't take special grapple actions.


Alternate angle: maybe if you choose to hold, you can switch "to conducting the grapple normally" during the grapple? No rule for this, but a stab in the dark.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: No. A grapple check is not an attack roll even though it can be used in place of an attack and is based off of BAB. Noe that the 'attack your opponent' option does use an attack roll (with a -4 penalty).

Possibly disagree. PHB: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll...your attack bonus on a grapple check is..."

RC: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modifi ed by your grapple modifier. ...Use [your special size modifier] in place of the normal size modifi er you use when making an attack roll"

It sounds like it is a form of attack roll, but with a different modifier.

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: It's ambiguous, but a conservative choice is that it's an option.

Reasoning: The wording is highly ambiguous. "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."
A rider to successful grapple checks would say: "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on every successful grapple check."
An option when grappling would be: "... you may deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."

Either could the be intention, but the insertion of 'may' is less disruptive than the change of 'a' to 'every' and it results in less absurdity.

Disagree. That it's an independent special grapple action doesn't seem plausible. It doesn't say you "can" or "may" deal damage. And it isn't tagged as an independent (ex) ability, suggesting it's modifying an existing action.

Since you already deal damage when you establish a grapple, it's clear that this feature applies then. What's unclear is whether it replaces or augments the normal US damage you deal, and whether it also applies any time you make a successful grapple check.

Re the first question, I don't know.
Re the second, the partial phrasing of the ability and its lack of an ex tag suggest to me that it's modifying the damage you deal with a grapple, not introducing a new source of damage, so my ruling would be it applies when you successfully establish a grapple as well as when you use Damage Your Opponent, but not when you wouldn't normally deal damage with a grapple check.

A: It's ambiguous, but a conservative choice is that it's an option.

My view is that a conservative reading is the one that asks less of the text. That sometimes means the permissive reading, sometimes the restrictive one. Being more restrictive doesn't inherently make a reading more textually conservative.

As you note, reading it as its own action requires you to speculate on what kind of action it is, since it's not ex or su and doesn't have an action to default to. When an interpretation made in the name of textuality requires extratextual adjudication that's a red flag (another example in the current Iron Chef thread).

It's not super-clear, but I could imagine DMs ruling against and it seems good to avoid rules controversies.

The much touted "1st level stance" phrase doesn't even specify class level. I just think it's overblown. If you are able to take the constrict stance, do you think that's worth a level?

[Anthrowhale]

So your concern is that while using improved grab's "hold" option, you can't pin your opponent (and thus can't use FG chokehold) because you don't count as grappling?

As an example, yes. You also would not be able to execute any other grapple option.

If true, this would also mean you can't move and bring your grappled target with you

This, at least, is specifically allowed.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. ... It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

- The wording of Multigrab is, "When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...". Thus, you are still grappling them when using a special hold, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself -- so maybe you can still take grapple actions against them.

- If your target continues to be grappling, it must be true that you are, quote, "maintaining a grapple" against them, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself. So again, maybe you can take grapple actions against them.

These are convincing to me.

One thing that I hadn't appreciated: Multigrab is only for hold checks, so other grapple checks still suck up a -20 penalty.

- The action we're talking about, Pin, doesn't even say "while grappling". It has no conditionality attached. This could strengthen the argument for a common sense reading -- you can do it to a target that you're grappling, which per Multigrab we know you are.

The only way to create a pin is as a grappling option.

RC: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modifi ed by your grapple modifier. ...Use [your special size modifier] in place of the normal size modifi er you use when making an attack roll"

The RC wording seems fairly convincing here. That implies that when grappling 10 opponents, there is about an even chance one of them will escape per round.

Disagree. That it's an independent special grapple action doesn't seem plausible. It doesn't say you "can" or "may" deal damage. And it isn't tagged as an independent (ex) ability, suggesting it's modifying an existing action.

Since you already deal damage when you establish a grapple, it's clear that this feature applies then. What's unclear is whether it replaces or augments the normal US damage you deal, and whether it also applies any time you make a successful grapple check.

Re the first question, I don't know.
Re the second, the partial phrasing of the ability and its lack of an ex tag suggest to me that it's modifying the damage you deal with a grapple, not introducing a new source of damage, so my ruling would be it applies when you successfully establish a grapple as well as when you use Damage Your Opponent, but not when you wouldn't normally deal damage with a grapple check.

Interesting---I hadn't thought of that interpretation.

The Improved Grab special ability has similar wording:

...each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Presumably, the same logic would apply?

The much touted "1st level stance" phrase doesn't even specify class level. I just think it's overblown. If you are able to take the constrict stance, do you think that's worth a level?

The value of constrict seems dependent on the applicability of savage grapple.

[Anthrowhale]

Q&A v2, thanks to Elves. Any other feedback? (I added a couple questions as well.)

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: Yes. The text for a limb hold is ambiguous about whether or not this is just a 'hold' or grappling, but text elsewhere indicates that grappling is occurring. For example, Multigrab says:

When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...

Q: When using a limb hold option with improved grab, how many grapple checks can the creature initiate on held opponents?
A: It depends on the option used, but for grapple checks used in place of an attack, as many as base attack bonus allows (up to 4) each round are possible.

Some of these actions take the place of an attack... If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Q: When using improved grab, which grapple checks cause damage?
A: All successful grapple checks. Improved Grab says:

... each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Q: When using the (Greater) Multigrab feat, which grapple checks are improved by 10 (or 20)?
A: Only grapple checks to maintain a hold. This means using other grapple options when using a limb hold are substantially more difficult.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: Yes. The rules say it is 'like a melee attack roll' without stating that it is an attack roll and refers to it as an attack bonus. The Rules Compendium is more explicit that this only difference is the size modifier.

A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modified by your grapple modifier..

So the only difference mechanically is the size modifier. As a consequence, there is a 5% chance that grapple checks to hold fail.

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: The wording does not establish that this is a new action, so it must be modifying action.

"...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."

implies that savage grapple damage is applied after successful grapple checks which would apply damage.

Q: What kind of action is Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple?
A: It is not an action, it is a modification to the damage done when inflicting damage via a grapple check.

Q: If you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple" on a grappled opponent while holding some other opponent with an improved grab limb, do you apply the natural attack damage from the holding limb?
A: No? Savage Grapple says "_all_ your natural weapons" while Improved Grab says "...can use its _remaining_ attacks against _other_ opponents." There is a rules conflict in which a DM could decide either way. The more intuitive and conservative choice is "no".

Q: If an opponent is grappled by a limb using improved grab, what happens when using a full attack action?
A: Every other natural attack can be executed against an opponent and you can perform iterative grapple attacks as well.

Q: When pinning an opponent, can you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple"?
A: Yes, in general. Savage Grapple modifies the damage done when inflicting damage with a grapple.

[Elves]

The only way to create a pin is as a grappling option.

To clarify the argument, which I don't necessarily endorse: all RC says about the special grapple options is

while you’re grappling, you can perform only the fol-lowing maneuvers.

It says while grappling you're limited to the following maneuvers (which includes some, like casting a spell, that aren't grapple-specific) but doesn't explicitly say what lets or does not let you take special grapple actions. So the common sense conclusion might be you can use them against a target you're grappling, which we know you are.

The Improved Grab special ability has similar wording

Looks like it was updated in RC to only apply to the damage your opponent action:

If the creature does notconstrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successiverounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack thatestablished the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage aswell (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

vs

Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab*. If the creature also has the constrict ability, it deals damage from the constrict attack in addition to damage dealt by the natural weapon used to grab.

*is this replacing or adding to US damage? seems to be replacing since no "also" or "in addition".

While these aren't strictly contradictory they seem to be replacing each other, and I have to admit the RC version is more reasonable. But it's certainly nice if your target risks killing themselves by trying to escape.

--

The Rending Constriction feat suggests that you can have multiple holds on a single target, but I don't know if that's supposed to be a special feat-only option. Could ramp up your single target damage by a lot.

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks, I updated the OP with a v3 Q&A.

I'm still debating options for an alternate full-BAB class level. Warblade is tempting, regardless of the Crushing Weight of the Mountain debate.

[Anthrowhale]

I shifted the build to use Druid/Barbarian/Warblade, as suggested. Snowtiger Berserker also seems particularly useful, since it's a pounce that works in an AMF. This results in the loss of 2 feats (Knowledge Devotion and Improved Multiattack) which seems acceptable (barely...) against a hypothetical Balor.

I still find the idea of a character that charges in and makes 10 opponents suffer Grappled-in-an-AMF in the first round of combat pretty hilarious Thanks all for the help and ideas here.

[Zarvistic]

Came across something old I had compiled, martial arts. One of them, stonegrind wrestling, says you are considered one size larger for the purpose of grapple checks. Seems like a big buff for the build, but needs 4 feats: IUA, PA, endurance and great fortitude.

Ranger 4 does a lot for this: track, endurance, PA, IUA, octopus but no rage and thats 4 levels, too many maybe?
Since you have monster HD tho, proto-creature template provides rage and strength bonus. I believe the source is similar license as dragon magazine too.

Not sure if you're done with this, but just another idea.