MitD XIV: High In Protean

[Keltest]

I seem to remember an episode where it was shown that their entire battle was just their job. They checked out for the day and continued their chase the next morning. I'm pretty sure he talked in that one.

That was nominally a wolf who happened to be completely identical in appearance to the Coyote. Any similarities between the characters is no doubt entirely coincidental.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That was nominally a wolf who happened to be completely identical in appearance to the Coyote.

Vile calumnies, I tell you! I never even saw that coyote!

Grey Wolf

[Joerg]

Given their xenophobia, it would be surprising to find one talking, and in common no less, despite their knowledge of languages, and because they have their own language which is, for all other creatures, not a language at all.

Hmm, but if one of them is speaking with some humans, I wouldn't be surprised that he's using Common. After all, he should know that they can't understand his own language. And if the SBGH wouldn't even recognize his language as a language, what language would they expect him to speak?

[Peelee]

Hmm, but if one of them is speaking with some humans, I wouldn't be surprised that he's using Common. After all, he should know that they can't understand his own language. And if the SBGH wouldn't even recognize his language as a language, what language would they expect him to speak?

Well, if we consider that the MitD is Wile E. Coyote, then they would expect him to speak..... sign language.

I HAVE NO REGRETS

[Squire Doodad]

Hmm, but if one of them is speaking with some humans, I wouldn't be surprised that he's using Common. After all, he should know that they can't understand his own language. And if the SBGH wouldn't even recognize his language as a language, what language would they expect him to speak?

Well, look at it like this: let's say you find a group of people who speak Swahili, Spanish, Mandarin, and French. They could learn any language, but due to their culture, they exclusively speak a Swahili/Spanish/Mandarin creole language that only they speak. There are no known cases of them being willing to learn or speak a different language, instead sticking to their creole language.
You only speak English, so you can't make heads or tails of anything that they say - in fact, part of you can barely tell if they're saying anything at all. One day, you stumble upon one of these people, and decide to say hello. Suddenly, the person starts speaking perfect English and asks you about the weather.

Are you surprised?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hmm, but if one of them is speaking with some humans, I wouldn't be surprised that he's using Common. After all, he should know that they can't understand his own language. And if the SBGH wouldn't even recognize his language as a language, what language would they expect him to speak?

They wouldn't expect him to be using any language at all, just meaningless sounds that don't conform to any definition of language they know of. The very fact that a member of a species so xenophobic is speaking at all, and in common, no less, is surprising. That's what matches what the clue says. It's not that they lack the capacity, it is that it is surprising this protean is not refusing to talk to his lessers, and indeed doing so in anything that even resembles a language.

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

Well, if we consider that the MitD is Wile E. Coyote, then they would expect him to speak..... sign language.

I HAVE NO REGRETS

Maybe they just think he's a coyote and don't understand that he is this unique individual coyote.

[Vendanna]

Maybe they just think he's a coyote and don't understand that he is this unique individual coyote.

While its fun thinking on it as the MitD, I don't think anyone has ever vomited seeing willy e Coyote (its a character for kids show!) nor someone would find it beautiful. he also has no problems at all holding ropes (heck he uses ropes a LOT in his traps) and the only planes he should have knowledge on is x,y,z axis since he loves to draw the traps he prepares before hand.

incidentally I watched a video of him getting wrecked by boulders and in two occasions he brought in a small parasol to "shield him" from harm, but none of them match the forms he uses in OOTS.

it was worth a laugh, thou.

[Neponde]

... The very fact that a member of a species so xenophobic is speaking at all, and in common, no less, is surprising. That's what matches what the clue says. It's not that they lack the capacity, it is that it is surprising this protean is not refusing to talk to his lessers, and indeed doing so in anything that even resembles a language.

Grey Wolf

As only a casual pathfinder player, this may be a silly thought. Before reading this thread, I had never heard of a protean. It seems everyone here is assuming that all characters in the oots world have a full and complete knowledge of any and all monsters. Doesn't it stand to reason that may be an incorrect assumption? As a xenophobic species, i doubt very many even know they exist (except in perhaps their equivalent of fairy tales?). If that's the case, its perfectly understandable that observers would express surprise that a creature that is constantly changing and morphing would speak common.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As a casual pathfinder player, this may be a silly thought. Before reading this thread, I had never heard of a protean. It seems everyone here is assuming that all characters in the oots world have a full and complete knowledge of any and all monsters. Doesn't it stand to reason that may be an incorrect assumption?

It would be, but we are not. We are assuming very complete knowledge from stereotypical big game hunters who, stereotypically, have absolute knowledge of all manner of beasts.

i doubt very many even know they exist (except in perhaps their equivalent of fairy tales?). If that's the case, its perfectly understandable that observers would express surprise that a creature that is constantly changing and morphing would speak common.

The SBGH talk about "one of these" - they clearly have recognised it. Now, for some other examples, it could be argued they might have confused it with a different species it could be confused with (I don't much like that argument, mind you, but it has been used), but there is nothing that you'd confuse a protean with.

Grey Wolf

[Neponde]

It would be, but we are not. We are assuming very complete knowledge from stereotypical big game hunters who, stereotypically, have absolute knowledge of all manner of beasts.

Grey Wolf

Oops, my bad. I had conflated two crowds in my head. I withdraw the comment.

[Peelee]

While its fun thinking on it as the MitD, I don't think anyone has ever vomited seeing willy e Coyote (its a character for kids show!) nor someone would find it beautiful. he also has no problems at all holding ropes (heck he uses ropes a LOT in his traps) and the only planes he should have knowledge on is x,y,z axis since he loves to draw the traps he prepares before hand.

All of which I addressed in the writeup!

[Vendanna]

It would be, but we are not. We are assuming very complete knowledge from stereotypical big game hunters who, stereotypically, have absolute knowledge of all manner of beasts.

[...]

Grey Wolf

Well, if I were to play devil's advocate (for fun) I would say that indeed, the stereotypical big game hunters, would have absolute knowledge of all manner of [beasts]

the hagunemnon is a [Large aberration] as its type not a Beast nor magical beast, so it wouldn't be something these gentlemen would be genre savvy about since its should be outside their expertise.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, if I were to play devil's advocate (for fun) I would say that indeed, the stereotypical big game hunters, would have absolute knowledge of all manner of [beasts]

the hagunemnon is a [Large aberration] as its type not a Beast nor magical beast, so it wouldn't be something these gentlemen would be genre savvy about since its should be outside their expertise.

Beasts in the sense of 19th century BGH novels easily covers what D&D calls magical beasts and aberrations. And, because racism, also any aboriginal people.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

From their fluff:


Given their xenophobia, it would be surprising to find one talking, and in common no less, despite their knowledge of languages, and because they have their own language which is, for all other creatures, not a language at all.

Grey Wolf

Ah, thanks. And, yeah, I agree. Not only is "made no mention" an absurd description of how we've handled the question, but it's not a flaw at all given everything else we know about a Protean.

Operation: Rabbit.

I just watched this a few days ago!

I seem to remember an episode where it was shown that their entire battle was just their job. They checked out for the day and continued their chase the next morning. I'm pretty sure he talked in that one.

That's Sam the Sheepdog and Ralph the Wolf.

[Emanick]

Well, if I were to play devil's advocate (for fun) I would say that indeed, the stereotypical big game hunters, would have absolute knowledge of all manner of [beasts]

the hagunemnon is a [Large aberration] as its type not a Beast nor magical beast, so it wouldn't be something these gentlemen would be genre savvy about since its should be outside their expertise.

Technically, Beast isn’t even a creature type in 3.5e. It was removed after the game designers realized that drawing a distinction between regular animals and dinosaurs was a bit arbitrary (I think they pointed out that, by that logic, if tigers went extinct their creature type would have to change, which would be rather silly).

The point is, you can safely use Beast as a non-technical term in 3.5e, because it doesn’t describe anything specific.

[Jasdoif]

Technically, Beast isn’t even a creature type in 3.5e.

OotS is 3.0 in prequels; as evidenced by the conversion in the first strip.

[littlebum2002]

Beasts in the sense of 19th century BGH novels easily covers what D&D calls magical beasts and aberrations. And, because racism, also any aboriginal people.

Grey Wolf

That's a pretty good point actually. They obviously have skill points in knowledge (local) and knowledge (nature). As you pointed out, they probably have a bunch in (arcana) and (dungeoneering), too. But how much knowledge would a BGH need about the planes? Could they recognize an Outsider on sight and know their inherent traits? That might be a point against the MitD being that monster type.

[3Power]

if we include the fact that nagas can fit in a size smaller than they suggest, and that despite the epic level handbook not including that rule there's apparently another one that does.

To clarify, in 3rd edition all snake-bodied creatures occupied a space half their size when coiled. This was removed in 3.5. Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 and includes the coiling.

I, personally, think that spellcasting is a bad solution because if you accept that anything he does could be from spellcasting than the guessing game seems less fun to me. but it's a much better choice than many in the proposed list. and i think it's at least possible, and maybe deserves in the fbs, or perhaps there should be another category so that people can see the maybe's as well.

Thank you for the support.

Heh. I see the ha-naga was deemed "not a great fit" ten years ago. It's tempting to thread dive and read what was said then...

Here.
Lot of the same people making the same arguments as 10 years later, and not much of a defensive showing on the Ha-naga's behalf.

This is my favorite exchange from back then:

The tracks, especially, seem to me to be a problem- snake tracks are generally pretty recognizable, aren't they? If the MitD was leaving tracks that pretty much looked like giant snake tracks, I'd expect Belkar to say that, rather than calling the tracks "unusual." He's not exactly a skilled tracker, but I'd think that'd be pretty obvious.

I'm not arguing that the MitD is a Naga, Ha or any other flavor. But using a turn of a phrase as evidence either for or against is probably a stretch. Rich is quite obviously keeping the creature type secret, which is a very natural cause for characters to speak less clearly about their observations. Having Belkar call the tracks "unusual" is a great way to keep him from dropping clues to the readers.

Agreed, and indeed the tracks are not really a problem for the naga - particularly one that'd be carrying a dead body while trying to move forwards. Sure, Aragorn would be able to read that circumstance in the strange tracks, but since all they have is sub-9 WIS Belkar, anything that isn't humanoid is simply beyond him.

Meanwhile these days we have:

Flying creatures do explain a bunch of issues with the lack of snow tracks, I'll grant you, but not the desert tracks. And if for whatever reason it wasn't flying then, snake tracks are not so uncommon that even Belkar would be confused by them. Oh, and of course, the Ha-Naga cannot invoke the "was carrying the table" excuse since it can't carry stuff while moving.

---

"can also cast cleric spells and spells from the domains of Chaos and Evil as arcane spells"

As has been previously explained to you, this does not mean the Ha-naga constantly has access to all cleric spells as a cleric does. It means when choosing spells known, the Ha-naga may also pick spells from the Cleric list.

Some nagas can treat spells from the cleric spell list and certain domain spell lists as arcane spells and can choose them as spells known if desired. For such nagas, gaining additional levels in the class it uses for spellcasting also gives it access to higher-level cleric and domain spells. For example, a typical spirit naga casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer and thus can know 3rd-level cleric spells and 3rd-level spells from the Chaos and Evil domains as arcane spells. If that spirit naga acquires one sorcerer level, it can then cast spells as an 8th-level sorcerer and thus has access to 4th-level cleric and domain spells. Nagas do not receive the granted powers of their domains.

---

You don't agree with this thread's results or even its very methodology. Why are you posting here rather than creating your own thread?

Even putting aside the rules violation, "Don't like it, leave" is a horrible fallacy.

Not only that, 3Power is wildly misrepresenting the Protean here-- the kind of wild misrepresentation fundamental to all his arguments in this thread. What evidence is there the Protean has "access to every language in existence"? The only information I can find on language is in the OP: "Normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand."

So to prove I'm wrong about the OP being incorrect, you reference the OP?

Given their xenophobia, it would be surprising to find one talking, and in common no less, despite their knowledge of languages, and because they have their own language which is, for all other creatures, not a language at all.

Because as we all know, people who hate others always hate others silently.

It would be, but we are not. We are assuming very complete knowledge from stereotypical big game hunters who, stereotypically, have absolute knowledge of all manner of beasts.

Also Redcloak, because he is very smart and stuff and never makes snarky jokes at other monsters' expense.

Ah, thanks. And, yeah, I agree. Not only is "made no mention" an absurd description of how we've handled the question, but it's not a flaw at all given everything else we know about a Protean.

So because you have a pet explanation for it, it shouldn't be listed as a flaw?

[Crusher]

Even putting aside the rules violation, "Don't like it, leave" is a horrible fallacy.

Well, it depends. I'm not just coming up with this out of the blue. This thread has gradually developed specific rules and a methodology, good chunks of which you completely disagree with. You've tried repeatedly to get the community to change those rules in various ways, and have mostly been unsuccessful.

Its like if you went to a thread on playing chess and tried to convince people that the rook should move diagonally and the bishop should move in a straight line. After some discussion, the other folks in the thread say "No, that's not how we've established the rules."

I mean, sure, you can keep trying to change their minds if you have the time. But repeating largely the same arguments over and over gets old and people go from being open minded to just pissed off that you're arguing that same point AGAIN when they just want to talk about chess. We're way, way past that point here. Its weird that you don't see why folks have to be wondering why you're here if you're not particularly interested in chess.

[catagent101]

Lot of the same people making the same arguments as 10 years later,

Which are perfectly valid points to bring up against it. They're not wrong. These are problems with the ha-naga as a candidate. Along with a lot of others.

I do think the problem with the protean speaking all languages should be put in its notes in the FBS, if at the very least because the SRD doesn't have the protean flavor text.

Also, put me down for Protean > Snorlax.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do think the problem with the protean speaking all languages should be put in its notes in the FBS, if at the very least because the SRD doesn't have the protean flavor text.

Fair. Added.

GW

[3Power]

Well, it depends. I'm not just coming up with this out of the blue. This thread has gradually developed specific rules and a methodology, good chunks of which you completely disagree with. You've tried repeatedly to get the community to change those rules in various ways, and have mostly been unsuccessful.

Its like if you went to a thread on playing chess and tried to convince people that the rook should move diagonally and the bishop should move in a straight line. After some discussion, the other folks in the thread say "No, that's not how we've established the rules."

It's more like wanting to discuss Arimaa, but the mods decided that chess variants belong in the chess thread, so you end up discussing Arimaa with people with no interest in learning about or discussing anything other than basic chess. So your choices are continue to try to discuss Arimaa in the chess thread or don't discuss it at all. And let's say for the sake of argument that said forum is pretty much the only location on the internet where discussion of Chess and chess variants are relevant.

I mean, sure, you can keep trying to change their minds if you have the time. But repeating largely the same arguments over and over gets old and people go from being open minded to just pissed off that you're arguing that same point AGAIN when they just want to talk about chess. We're way, way past that point here. Its weird that you don't see why folks have to be wondering why you're here if you're not particularly interested in chess.

Let's be real here. When this thread isn't discussing the ha-naga or protean, its discussing snorlax and wile-e coyote. Sorry, but when this is the ONLY place where the MiTD mystery can be discussed and the only thing being discussed when I'm not around are meme monsters, the idea that I'm somehow keeping you from more important business is laughable.

Also the irritation on discussing the same points over and over again goes both ways. I don't like having to re-explain several times, for instance, that "no, that's not how naga having access to cleric spells works." But that's why accurate information in the op would be a plus

[Crusher]

I’d quibble with your choice of words but things have been antagonistic for long enough that it’s to be expected. And, yeah, makes sense. You’re in an unfortunate situation.

As for meme monsters, Snorlax would actually be excellent if not for trademarking or whatever. Wile E Coyote is silly, but when the MitD hasn’t made an appearance in a really, really long time there’s less to talk about. Normally, with this little going on the thread will just shut down for weeks at a time.

Which should suggest why there’s been so much activity lately. It’s not you kicking anthills, you were just a direction to channel energy. When you wandered away it was directed towards meme monsters.

No, everyone is excited because we all think MitD will make an appearance soon. Everyone’s hoping a new clue or two will turn up, plus it’s been forever and a day since we saw him.

[b_jonas]

No, everyone is excited because we all think MitD will make an appearance soon. Everyone’s hoping a new clue or two will turn up,

Absolutely true. And I should muster the energy to post a writeup about my pet favourite candidate before that comes.

plus it’s been forever and a day since we saw him.

It can't have been that long. I mean I just edited my first page post to describe the most recent appearance, before that it was just a strip number and no description. Would I have left it undescribed for so long? :-) (Answer: yes, more than 6 months.)

[Spirare]

Little knowledge of DnD. Setting the issues with templates aside, would a template that changes a creature's type allow for a creature of a forbidden type to be a valid candidate? (e.g. pseudonatural undead)

[b_jonas]

Little knowledge of DnD. Setting the issues with templates aside, would a template that changes a creature's type allow for a creature of a forbidden type to be a valid candidate? (e.g. pseudonatural undead)

A few of them change the creature type, but usually in the wrong direction. #1018 first panel has a good example: one of the priests of the Creed of the Stone was a half-elemental, so Team Greg couldn't turn them to a vampire. I presume that half-elemental is a template that changes the creature type. The Half-Celestial template changes the type of a creature.

[Darth Paul]

As has been previously explained to you, this does not mean the Ha-naga constantly has access to all cleric spells as a cleric does. It means when choosing spells known, the Ha-naga may also pick spells from the Cleric list.

I will take your word for it that you've previously explained the way Ha-Nagas acquire spells, however, I don't remember reading this anywhere before.

It makes a very slight difference in my estimation of how probable a candidate the Ha-Naga could be. However, Redcloak's remark was about whether MitD could cast a spell as a 5th level cleric, not whether he had chosen any 3rd level cleric spells. That's two different things. The insinuation was that MitD had no cleric spellcasting abilities, period, not that he had spellcasting abilities but had wasted them on sorceror spells. I feel as though the second explanation is reading too much into it, especially when we've never seen MitD do anything that seems remotely like a sorceror spell either (as distinct from spell-like abilities, and admittedly this is a fine line- but as someone already asked, why would he have to tip his cart to reach a bucket if he could just use Mage Hand?).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Little knowledge of DnD. Setting the issues with templates aside, would a template that changes a creature's type allow for a creature of a forbidden type to be a valid candidate? (e.g. pseudonatural undead)

Sure, but wouldn't be in consideration for FBS list, because the FBS looks at the base unaltered creature.

I will take your word for it that you've previously explained the way Ha-Nagas acquire spells, however, I don't remember reading this anywhere before.

It makes a very slight difference in my estimation of how probable a candidate the Ha-Naga could be. However, Redcloak's remark was about whether MitD could cast a spell as a 5th level cleric, not whether he had chosen any 3rd level cleric spells. That's two different things. The insinuation was that MitD had no cleric spellcasting abilities, period, not that he had spellcasting abilities but had wasted them on sorceror spells. I feel as though the second explanation is reading too much into it, especially when we've never seen MitD do anything that seems remotely like a sorceror spell either (as distinct from spell-like abilities, and admittedly this is a fine line- but as someone already asked, why would he have to tip his cart to reach a bucket if he could just use Mage Hand?).

Or, in other words, as was said back then, Ha-Naga can cast raise undead, or can do so within a single level up if they re-spec. RC's barb about needing 5 level ups to obtain the necessary cleric levels doesn't fit if he was insulting a Ha-Naga. Or, as per it's entry in the OP, "Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric"."

Grey Wolf

[Quartz]

The Monster in the Darkness is, quite clearly, Wile E. Coyote.

I commend your flawless deduction skills. Bravo!