The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[Darth Credence]

Also, tiny cool detail I enjoyed - Luke doesn't disturb the salt.

You mean the salt that was blasted to oblivion when they shot at Luke, and it wasn't there at all when the shooting stops? Then magically reappears so that they can show he doesn't leave footprints?

So they built it deliberately in a binary star system to get off two shots? One of which they didn't need because TLJ shows that hours after it was destroyed they were able to wipe out the fleeing Resistance anyway?

From what I recall you're right about most of the science, but we'd then have to trust that Abrams cared enough about that to have it make sense. Anyway, all of those resources and time spent on a two-shot device wouldn't make them any more credible as villains. Logically, it should have been one -- they planned to take out the Republic -- or more than two.

Not a binary system. It didn't drain a star entirely for one shot, both its shots were needed to drain the star (and it didn't get the second one off).

Spoiler: Why they built it there

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Starkiller Base was built into the planet Ilum, which was one of the biggest sources for kyber crystals and the Jedi's most sacred planet. The Empire stripped it, among other planets, for crystlas for the Death Star, and created the enormous trench, and also left behind a large amount of infrastructure and technology.

Spoiler: Did they build it there, though?

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Oh, I know it wasn't binary - I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of the scene. The original concept was that it pulled dark energy from dark matter, and used that to power it. But JJ couldn't make that a visual, so he changed it to draining the sun to have a deadline. If you look at Wookieepedia, all of this is corrected - it uses the sun to gather energy, but just makes the sun dark and it will come back. They also justify the beam going out in "sub-hyperspace" to get to the target so quickly, and say that because it ripped space time, people could see it everywhere, including Takodana. Of course, that's all just retconning in the supplemental material - I don't see any way someone could come to that conclusion from the movie.
In addition, in Resistance, we see the sun that they initially sucked down to get the first shot. There was an episode where Kaz and Poe went on a mission, and they ended up in a star system with no star. That's the justification for where they initially got the energy. So that means either SKB moved there, drained a sun, and moved back to the original location; it was originally in that system and was never Ilum at all (that's not it); or it could drain stars from different systems. If it can do that, then it makes absolutely no sense that they would ever drain the star they orbit. So we are left with building it at Ilum, then going somewhere else to drain a star, then going back to Ilum's system. The more thought I put into it, the worse SKB becomes. I'm making myself not like TFA right now.

[Devonix]

Truly sorry you didn't enjoy it. For me watching this film was the first time in in quite some time that I'd had my Starwars love fully revitalized.

I felt the same joy that I felt reading the Young Jedi knights books way back when those were coming out. Force Awakens was a safe Blanket but this, this was a shot of pure joy into the arm for me.

[Sir_Norbert]

That was an interesting read. For me... I've only seen TLJ once, when it was in theaters, and I am a pretty uncritical viewer. I agree with a lot of your points in hindsight, but for the most part they didn't bother me at the time. I came out of TLJ feeling it had been mostly a good piece of entertainment though it dragged towards the end. The real trouble was that it didn't work as part of an epic saga. I didn't feel any of the excitement and anticipation for what would come next that I did when, for example, the Harry Potter books were coming out. I knew I would still go to see Episode 9, but I also knew that I'd go in expecting it to be decent fun but nothing special.

I have no idea if I'll ever get round to rewatching the sequel trilogy, but I am pretty curious now about how my opinions would change if I did. Probably lower for all three, which is kind of a shame, because I loved TFA and ranked it as my favourite Star Wars film. Not sure if I still would -- but again that may be the benefit of hindsight, now that I know there never was a coherent plan for where the threads they set up were heading.

[Devonix]

I think that's a common response. Solo lost money after all.

Eh it's not the reason for me. I Loved Last Jedi, I didn't see Solo because I had no interest in it. And when I eventually did see it I was glad I skipped it.

[JadedDM]

[*]It’s explained to Finn that arms dealers also supply the Resistance. I don’t understand why this ‘arms dealing is bad’ subplot is in the movie. The Resistance is in a war. To fight a war you need weapons. Is this a difficult concept for Hollywood to get or something?

Just to be clear, you did understand that she was saying that the arms dealers are selling weapons to both sides, right? They don't care about the Resistance or the First Order. They just want to profit.

Eh it's not the reason for me. I Loved Last Jedi, I didn't see Solo because I had no interest in it. And when I eventually did see it I was glad I skipped it.

Same here. I just never had any interest in a Han origin story that recast the character. That just didn't appeal to me at all, so I never went to see it.

[Kitten Champion]

Same here. I just never had any interest in a Han origin story that recast the character. That just didn't appeal to me at all, so I never went to see it.

I had the same reaction. Plus it came out on the heels of Infinity War, and I didn't have much desire for yet another big-budget spectacle.

After watching it later at home, my general opinion was "this is fine, and it's nice to see a Space Western, but the cinematography is needlessly dark throughout" and I haven't really had any desire to revisit it.

[Devonix]

Just to be clear, you did understand that she was saying that the arms dealers are selling weapons to both sides, right? They don't care about the Resistance or the First Order. They just want to profit.

Yeah the arms dealer, DJ all of that stuff is an important part of Finn's arc. It's about how you have to pick sides. If you don't, if you just keep your head down and just peak up for personal stuff, you might as well be helping the badguys.

Remember Finn up until this point doesn't care about the Resistance, doesn't care about the galaxy at large. And DJ represents what this type of living could turn Finn into.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah the arms dealer, DJ all of that stuff is an important part of Finn's arc. It's about how you have to pick sides. If you don't, if you just keep your head down and just peak up for personal stuff, you might as well be helping the badguys.

Remember Finn up until this point doesn't care about the Resistance, doesn't care about the galaxy at large. And DJ represents what this type of living could turn Finn into.

I feel like this message would be stronger if not for the fact that as far as I recall, DJ gets away with what he does. Particularly when he seems like the exact kind of person the first order would shoot on the spot because he could turn against them.

[Saph]

Just to be clear, you did understand that she was saying that the arms dealers are selling weapons to both sides, right? They don't care about the Resistance or the First Order. They just want to profit.

Yeah, but . . . who cares? Up until now the whole story has been about how the First Order is EVIL and its members are EVIL and that the Resistance needs to stop them before they do more EVIL THINGS. They're totally dehumanised and as a result none of the protagonists have had any problem with shooting First Order soldiers with guns or blowing them up with explosives. Finn slaughters dozens of them in TFA and never shows the slightest trace of a guilty conscience about it (despite the fact that they're supposedly brainwashed, just like he used to be).

But now we get this out-of-left-field lecture about arms dealers. So apparently killing people with weapons is fine, just so long as you don't sell them. It tries to be some kind of moral but falls totally flat. This is the thing about TLJ – it's not just a bad movie in one dimension, it manages to be bad in pretty much every dimension at once.

Just curious you have given some movies a plus (+) and others a minus (-) rating, do you think it is better then an E-, and if so what are the saving graces?

I guess some of the visuals are okay? And there were short moments (such as the speeder trails) where the movie briefly got up to the level of watchable.

That's about it. I didn't give it an E- because I can still theoretically think of ways in which it could be worse. Although not much worse. In terms of enjoyment this was the worst experience I've had watching a movie for years.

[ImperiousLeader]

E. It’s an awful movie, I hated watching it, and it may have singlehandedly killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars in general.

Okay, this, I don't get. Movies I hate exist in every franchise that I like, and that didn't kill my enjoyment of the franchise. Star Trek Nemesis, Attack of the Clones, every Alien movie after Aliens, The Hobbit, X-Men Apocalypse ... these movies don't kill the Wrath of Khan, The Last Jedi, Aliens, Lord of the Rings or X2 for me.

As for The Last Jedi, here's a few reasons I find it the best of the post-Lucas movies.

1. Breathtaking Visuals

As a movie, The Last Jedi offers some just beautiful shots. From the red earth under the white salt on Crait, to the sudden silence after the lightspeed ram, the throne room fight, that tracking shot through Canto Bight, I find this movie visually engrossing.

2. Ruminations on the Force

Outside of the OT, The Last Jedi is the only movie to really discuss the nature of the Force. Rey and Luke have some lovely scenes, and I especially like their first lesson. First, Luke's point on the Force and the Jedi being separate entities is an important one.

Second, it points to a dynamic between Rey and Kylo Ren that I really like. Rey, like Luke and all the other Jedi before her, has to struggle to resist the Dark Side, but what's interesting is the same is true for Kylo, he's struggling to resist the Light Side of the Force.

3. Sense of Humour

Humour is subjective, but I find The Last Jedi's jokes land. From BB-8 sticking fingers into that circuit board like it's a dam, to Luke teasing Rey with a feather, I enjoyed the humour.

4. Canto Bight

While it is not my favourite section of the movie, I do think the movie loses some momentum here, I also disagree with those that think this part can be scrapped from the film. Most Star Wars movies have their "Mos Eisley Cantina" scene, that part where all the criminals and colourful characters hang out. What I like is that The Last Jedi has one too, only it's the high-class and wealthy criminals. It's still a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but glossy and pretty too. And that initial tracking shot through the casino is pretty cool.

5. Yoda is a puppet again

One thing that that I really approve of is going back to practical effects where possible. The CGI-fest of the prequels looks so bad right now, and the Yoda in TLJ is much more that same irreverent Yoda from ESB than in the prequels. I love the Yoda and Luke scene, I like that Yoda is still teaching Luke, but also clearly respects how he's grown. Also, they rebuilt the puppet, and Frank Oz is actually performing/controlling the puppet, and it shows.

6. Critter design

What can I say, I am pro Porg and crystal foxes.

I have more, but it's late and I'm stopping here.

[Saph]

Okay, this, I don't get. Movies I hate exist in every franchise that I like, and that didn't kill my enjoyment of the franchise. Star Trek Nemesis, Attack of the Clones, every Alien movie after Aliens, The Hobbit, X-Men Apocalypse ... these movies don't kill the Wrath of Khan, The Last Jedi, Aliens, Lord of the Rings or X2 for me.

Yeah, I can't really argue with the logic there, and I'm the same as you as regards later Alien movies or X Men Apocalypse (though I didn't hate Attack of the Clones or The Hobbit). But the experience of watching TLJ was just SO awful that the thought of watching any future Star Wars movies makes me flinch. It feels like something to suffer through, not something to enjoy any more.

[Daimbert]

Okay, this, I don't get. Movies I hate exist in every franchise that I like, and that didn't kill my enjoyment of the franchise. Star Trek Nemesis, Attack of the Clones, every Alien movie after Aliens, The Hobbit, X-Men Apocalypse ... these movies don't kill the Wrath of Khan, The Last Jedi, Aliens, Lord of the Rings or X2 for me.

Well, most of your examples are of later works not stopping you from enjoying previous ones, in the sense that you didn't like the later ones but still like the earlier ones. The only case where it isn't is from Attack of the Clones to TLJ, but the number of years in between that changes how that works out. Here, speaking only for myself, what gets killed is my interest in watching the new stuff going forward. There's a couple of reasons for this. First, for me, TLJ left nothing interesting for me to care about for the final movie in the trilogy. So I don't have any interest in watching the last movie because the movies that were supposed to lead up to it and make me anxious for it didn't do that. Second, I have no interest in the universe as per the ST. I don't care about the characters or the political situation or the battle. That gives me no incentive to watch anything that starts from that point. Third, I've lost faith in the people running the franchise. Star Wars was like the Persona games for me, where I could just go and consume things in it because I knew I'd enjoy most of it and could put aside or ignore the ones that I didn't care for. With this trilogy, that's no longer the case for Star Wars. I dislike these movies and the entire direction enough that before I'd watch anything again I'd need it to come up with good reviews and be something that interests me specifically. Which is why I DID buy two new novels, but those ones are about Palpatine and Vader and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan specifically ... and I'm not holding out much hope there either.

So that's how it killed my enthusiasm for the series: I don't care about anything new in it. I can still watch and enjoy the OT and even the PT, but don't care about any of the new stuff anymore.

Second, it points to a dynamic between Rey and Kylo Ren that I really like. Rey, like Luke and all the other Jedi before her, has to struggle to resist the Dark Side, but what's interesting is the same is true for Kylo, he's struggling to resist the Light Side of the Force.

This was actually pretty clear in TFA, and TLJ, in my opinion, didn't do enough to follow up on it.

4. Canto Bight

While it is not my favourite section of the movie, I do think the movie loses some momentum here, I also disagree with those that think this part can be scrapped from the film. Most Star Wars movies have their "Mos Eisley Cantina" scene, that part where all the criminals and colourful characters hang out. What I like is that The Last Jedi has one too, only it's the high-class and wealthy criminals. It's still a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but glossy and pretty too. And that initial tracking shot through the casino is pretty cool.

The downside is that it doesn't fit in with the movie TLJ was trying to be, hence the loss of momentum. Or, at least, it didn't fit with the movie where it came in the movie, and the subplot itself doesn't work. You can look at all of the other such scenes and see that they work in the context of the movie, and this one doesn't.

[Mightymosy]

I think E is generous. Isn't there an F as well?

Wait, there was one good thing, the Porgs. Mind you, not what they did with the Porgs in the "story", I am just talking about the creature design. They are pretty cute, bought one from Lego for my daddy, and yeah, it's cute.

For me, TLJ is also the reason I skipped part 9.
I did watch Solo, though, because others were going, and I heard it was not connected to the "saga", and was done by someone else. Was not disappointed.
I genuinely think this is the best movie of the franchise, if you want a well told story. It is also the best "origin story" I know. After I watched it, I thought "this fits perfectly well with Han. This is how he came to be what he was". Incredibly well written, especially for a franchise such as Star Wars, which is generally rather on the "easy to understand fairy tale" side of things.
I wouldn't say it is flawless, but it does have the most robust character story going on. Curious to see if you agree. So far, your comments about TFA, TLJ and Rogue are almost identical with mine.

Re: Harry Potter
See this how you do a series. I CAN'T wait to see the next part. I am not even a hardcore fan of the franchise. I hardly knew the "strange animals or whatever it's called" series existed, or if it did I presumed it was for kids mostly.
But it made me care. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS.
I LIKE the characters. I almost cried when violet robe chick died heroically. The villain is believable. Heck, he is much better as movie antagonist than Voldemort ever was.
Did these movies have flaws? Hell, yeah, I am sure you can find them. So what is the difference?

All the good movies, Rogue One, Solo, Harry Potter, heck, Marvel, they all go
"Here is a cool story about cool characters on an adventure. Please enjoy, while we try to entertain you. Please forgive if we oversee a detail we got wrong."

TLJ is like
"you think you are clever? Well I AM CLEVER and look at all the stuff you thought was cool and how I subvert your expectations to show how clever I am"
Well, you aren't.
Your stuff doesn't make sense in the slightest.
I have no problem per se with people going preachy. Want to preach against war? Fine. But get your stuff right then. Because a message built on nonsense doesn't fly.

In other words, if you ask your audience to be critical, don't surprised if they catch the crap you are trying to pull off.


There is a reason RotJ is one of my favorite Star Wars movies. It DOES have a message of "make peace not war" when Luke throws away his light sabre in one of the most glorious moments of movie history.
That was certainly subversive back then. Usually hero defeats bad guy in the finale by fighting, preferably in a fist fight, if we go down Hollywood tradition (yawn).
Luke throwing the sabre and Vader saving him surprised me.
So why did this work but TLJ did not?
Because the characters and the logic worked.
Luke didn't throw the sabre to surprise the audience. It was one possible outcome of the character arc he went through. Another outcome would have been him striking down Vader in anger, hence there was tension.
But it didn't feel unreasonable.
Sure, it would have been stupidly risky, in our world. But it was reasonable for Luke and his story.

Him thinking of striking Kylo teenie, after all this, doesn't make sense and simply is crap writing, AND it spits on the original - for no good reason.
MAYBE a "Luke becomes disillusioned crappy mean guy" might work as a story. Maybe. But then you need to TELL that story. Get on your behind and write the story that pushes the character into this place. Don't just arrange him this way like a background piece of furniture.
Also, just re-arranging furniture for the sake of it doesn't work either, as seen with the disconnect with the First Order's and the Rebels' and the Republic's military resources.


So..... meh

[Devonix]

I feel like this message would be stronger if not for the fact that as far as I recall, DJ gets away with what he does. Particularly when he seems like the exact kind of person the first order would shoot on the spot because he could turn against them.

DJ Has to get away. Because the lesson isn't. This type of life will kill you. It isn't. The Casino scene already said that hell, this type of life can be extremely profitable. It's no, that this type of like while keeping you safe, is something that kills your soul. And would you wish to live for nothing, or die for something.

[Saph]

DJ Has to get away. Because the lesson isn't. This type of life will kill you. It isn't. The Casino scene already said that hell, this type of life can be extremely profitable. It's no, that this type of like while keeping you safe, is something that kills your soul. And would you wish to live for nothing, or die for something.

But Finn already picked a side! If Finn's character arc in this movie is really supposed to be 'picking a side' (and honestly, if it was, it was so clumsily done that I didn't even notice) then it's a nonstarter, because Finn already did his 'I'm leaving, I'm going away, wait I changed my mind and I'm coming back' routine in the last movie. And right after that he went on what should have been a suicide mission to Starkiller Base.

Gah, this movie is so awful. Literally NOTHING about it works.

[Devonix]

But Finn already picked a side! If Finn's character arc in this movie is really supposed to be 'picking a side' (and honestly, if it was, it was so clumsily done that I didn't even notice) then it's a nonstarter, because Finn already did his 'I'm leaving, I'm going away, wait I changed my mind and I'm coming back' routine in the last movie. And right after that he went on what should have been a suicide mission to Starkiller Base.

Gah, this movie is so awful. Literally NOTHING about it works.

No Finn hadn't picked a side. That's very explicit in Force Awakens. Finn doesn't care about the Resistance. Doesn't care about the Galaxy, he's just running away and wanting a safe life away from the First Order. The only person he cares about is Rey,

Canto Bite DJ All of it, is to show him, what kind of person not picking a side turns you into.

It's what his Rebel Scum line is. He's not running away anymore, he's not fighting for personal reasons, he's fighting because NOW he's firmly on the Resistance's side.

[Daimbert]

Canto Bite DJ All of it, is to show him, what kind of person not picking a side turns you into.

I agree that Finn hadn't picked a side yet, but think that your interpretation of DJ and Canto Blight is another thing that's an issue with the movie.

First, it's far more reasonable to argue that it's not the case that them not picking a side turned them into those sorts of people, but rather that because they ARE those sorts of people they won't pick a side. All of them care more about making money than politics or morality, and so are willing to work with whichever side will make them money. The character that they best link to would be Han Solo, as they are what Han Solo would be if he hadn't fallen in with the Rebellion: they care about only one thing, themselves. If Han had made a big score, he'd be in the casino, and if not he'd be DJ (or at least possibly). So the first issue is that you need to be a specific type of person to be neutral in that way.

Which leads to the second issue: Finn's inability to pick a side is NOT from greed or self-interest, and so he wouldn't end up there. He's more like Luke in ANH: he doesn't like the FO and wants to see it eliminated, but can't see any way that he, on his own, could have such an impact. For Finn, what drives it is more that once he abandoned the FO he was left without a purpose, and so jumped onto anything that he felt could give him one. First, that was completing Poe's mission and after that was Rey. What he needed to learn was that he could make a purpose out of doing the right thing and opposing evil, and to feel that he himself could make a difference in that. He didn't need to learn that not picking a side would lead to those outcomes because for him it WOULDN'T have. He would simply have left the Resistance and quite possibly become a simple moisture farmer.

And third, this interpretation makes Rose's line utterly ridiculous. As noted, Finn was only ever motivated to do anything good by his desire to save someone he loved, Rey. There's nothing in his backstory -- at least nothing overly significant -- about him wanting to destroy those he hates. What he would have needed to learn is to do good because it's good and not just to protect someone he loves. And then Rose stops him and gives him what would supposedly be a lesson which is the exact wrong lesson for him and, in fact, is the thing he needed to reject.

You can indeed interpret the scenes that way, but then it causes issues elsewhere.

[afroakuma]

Not sure I'm going to make it that far to be honest.

I really hope you persevere, but I understand the feeling... reading this was just like reading my own thoughts fresh from both TFA and TLJ. It's the only entertainment I've ever derived from those films.

[Bobb]

Re: Finn/Canto


Like much of TLJ, it's complete horsecrap.

Finn is trying to escape. From TFA we get a trooper who didn't sign up for this crap and just wants out. The reason he isn't gung ho about joining the resistance isn't born out of a refusal to pick sides. It's born out of fear, fear of the First Order that he, perhaps uniquely, understands and has experienced.

Finn has no qualms about leting everyone know what bad dudes the FO is. He saw planets destroyed and civilians gunned down. He knows about Kylo Ren. In the TFA he runs from that until he doesn't. Indeed, by the end, he's standing up to Kylo Ren. It doesn't get more resistance than that. He does it because of Rey (hey, fighting to protect what we love, look at that! [this is foreshadowing]) but he absolutely does it.


So now we're watching TLJ and Finn still has a hard on for Rey and apparently hasn't been emboldened or encouraged by surviving a dust up with the Dark First Order attack dog. Like, at all. He tries to go and find and help Rey instead of sitting in a bucket waiting to die like everyone else....

Rose calls him a coward and tases him.


He comes to, finds out there are actions he can take to help the fleet, and HE TAKES THOSE ACTIONS. He has chosen a side peeps. Just because he is infatuated with Rey and wasn't clever enough to do the big think to solve all of the resistances problems on his own (remember, he doesn't do flying so well [foreshadow!!]) does not mean he's some wishy washy non-interventionist, despite what Rose may or may not judge him for doing/being. And what the crap!?!?! How does she know what's in his heart? Judgmental much? Rose is going through a lot, processing the loss of her sister and she's projecting crap onto Finn.

So anyway, Rose explains to Finn like he's an idiot that these gun sellers are uniquely evil and rich and Finn's all, yeah! Down with the man! Notice Finn will always uncritically swallow whatever tripe Rose feeds him.

So Rose radicalizes Finn to the point where he ends up on a suicide run against the FO instead of pursuing Rey to save her (character development! He's no longer saving what he loves, but fighting against what he HATES! The FO) on a speeder (not a fighter but Finns not good at flying and I say speeders are enough like flyers that this was out of his comfort zone).

And Rose t-bones him. And calls him an idiot for fighting in hate. Tells him he needs to save what he loves. And sexually assaults him.

Ta da!

[comicshorse]

I agree that Finn hadn't picked a side yet, but think that your interpretation of DJ and Canto Blight is another thing that's an issue with the movie.

First, it's far more reasonable to argue that it's not the case that them not picking a side turned them into those sorts of people, but rather that because they ARE those sorts of people they won't pick a side. All of them care more about making money than politics or morality, and so are willing to work with whichever side will make them money. The character that they best link to would be Han Solo, as they are what Han Solo would be if he hadn't fallen in with the Rebellion: they care about only one thing, themselves. If Han had made a big score, he'd be in the casino, and if not he'd be DJ (or at least possibly). So the first issue is that you need to be a specific type of person to be neutral in that way.

Which leads to the second issue: Finn's inability to pick a side is NOT from greed or self-interest, and so he wouldn't end up there. He's more like Luke in ANH: he doesn't like the FO and wants to see it eliminated, but can't see any way that he, on his own, could have such an impact. For Finn, what drives it is more that once he abandoned the FO he was left without a purpose, and so jumped onto anything that he felt could give him one. First, that was completing Poe's mission and after that was Rey. What he needed to learn was that he could make a purpose out of doing the right thing and opposing evil, and to feel that he himself could make a difference in that. He didn't need to learn that not picking a side would lead to those outcomes because for him it WOULDN'T have. He would simply have left the Resistance and quite possibly become a simple moisture farmer.

And third, this interpretation makes Rose's line utterly ridiculous. As noted, Finn was only ever motivated to do anything good by his desire to save someone he loved, Rey. There's nothing in his backstory -- at least nothing overly significant -- about him wanting to destroy those he hates. What he would have needed to learn is to do good because it's good and not just to protect someone he loves. And then Rose stops him and gives him what would supposedly be a lesson which is the exact wrong lesson for him and, in fact, is the thing he needed to reject.

You can indeed interpret the scenes that way, but then it causes issues elsewhere.

Which seems a better way to go. A better arc would be Finn hates the FO not only for what they did to him but what they forced him to do to others. He especially hates himself for what he did in their ranks. Which makes him so readily slaughtering his comrades in the escape understandable. He see's in them himself and is eager to annihilate all memory and trace of his past deeds.
This then makes Rose's message actually mean something

Spoiler: spoiler for TROS

Show

PS
It also helps with his interaction with the ex-strormtroopers in TROS. As rather than just turning his weapons on them he leads them to tear down the organization that mind screwed them all

[Peelee]

As for The Last Jedi, here's a few reasons I find it the best of the post-Lucas movies.

1. Breathtaking Visuals

2. Ruminations on the Force

3. Sense of Humour

4. Canto Bight

5. Yoda is a puppet again

6. Critter design

Here's my issues with, specifically, the things you like:

1. Breathtaking Visuals - doesn't have anything to do with storytelling

5. Yoda is a puppet again - doesn't have anything to do with storytelling

6. Critter design - doesn't have anything to do with storytelling.

4. Canto Bight - what you specifically wrote about it doesn't have anything to do with storytelling.

Saph's notes, whether you agree or disagree, are almost entirely about storytelling. More than half of this list has nothing whatsoever to do with storytelling. I don't think anyone would disagree that the visuals are good in TLJ, but you can have the best visuals I've ever seen and if the story doesn't carry them, I'm not going to like the movie. Same for critter design and Yoda being a puppet. They can CGI the crap out of Yoda and if I can't tell the difference between that and a puppet - or, more to the point, if it convinces me that it's an alien creature I'm seeing on screen - then I don't care.

3. Sense of Humour - Same here, with the added note that this actually took me out of the movie. I don't really care about the Marvel movies, and part of that is the humor seems much too flippant and casual for such high stakes. And that's how I describe a lot of the humor in the entirety of the sequel trilogy - it's Marvel humor. For example - a "yo mamma" joke to kick off the movie? The opening shot helps set the tone for the movie overall, and right off the bat that made me expect the movie to be flippant and casual about things that should be weighty, like a Marvel movie (of which I've seen very few, so if this changed in later movies and this complaint seems off, that's why). BB-8 plugs up water electrical leaks while Poe is flying for his life. Is this scene supposed to be tense or humorous? In ANH, when they're fighting off the TIEs after escaping the Death Star, we get a single joke - a small explosion, Leia saying, "we've lost the lateral controls," Han saying "don't worry, she'll hold together," a beat shot of a fire starting, then Han saying under his breath, "y'hear me baby, hold together," and R2 putting out the fire. That's it, that's all the humor in that fight. It's a tense scene, and that doesn't reduce the tension - the danger is incorporated into the joke, but it's not the joke; Han's confidence, which he immediately reveals is a front, is the joke. The "leaky" engine, meanwhile, is the joke. We don't feel the sense of danger because we're laughing at the danger itself (those who were laughing, that is. The scene made me roll my eyes hard). It reduces the tension, which is already reduced by Poe's ridiculous level of super-competence. It's no longer Poe flying for his life in a harzardous situation, it's watching circus trapeze artists - sure, it looks impressive, but it's obviously an act and I don't feel any danger (no slight to circus trapeze artists here).

2. Ruminations on the Force = I would agree with you here, but they don't really say anything that the EBS didn't. And I don't think anyone needed to be taught that the Force and the Jedi are different; at the very least, those who did need to be taught that likely are the same kind of people who wouldn't pick up on it anyway.

4. Canto Bight - I'm going to add this in for the storytelling aspect - you liked the "Mos Eisley Cantina" type scene here. The problem with that is, in the first movie, that's an establishing shot. It helps show us that this is a large and diverse galaxy, it opens up the world for us, and it helps us further identify with Luke; he's just as off-kilter as we are on being thrown into that scene. ESB and ROTJ don't really have these, because it's already established and they don't need it. ROTJ had something like this added into the Special Edition, in Jabba's Palace, and I consider that scene a total waste of space. It adds nothing to the movie and only slows it down.

The same can be said for Canto Bight. ESB is a perfect counter here - Cloud City on Bespin is a clean, futuristic, shiny setpiece, but we don't ever linger. All the shots we have are while the characters are interacting; they're relegated to the background, and we can appreciate them while they serve the story. Canto Bight? It is, as you say, another Mos Eisley Cantina. Except we already know the kind of world we're in, it's not opening the galaxy any, and it's nothing but wasted time. At least, the first establishing shots, which is what you're talking about. Later, when they ride the space-horses through the casino (sigh), that is how to showcase a new type of environment. It's serving as a dynamic backdrop instead of being needlessly in the spotlight.

[Zevox]

3. Sense of Humour - Same here, with the added note that this actually took me out of the movie. I don't really care about the Marvel movies, and part of that is the humor seems much too flippant and casual for such high stakes. And that's how I describe a lot of the humor in the entirety of the sequel trilogy - it's Marvel humor. For example - a "yo mamma" joke to kick off the movie? The opening shot helps set the tone for the movie overall, and right off the bat that made me expect the movie to be flippant and casual about things that should be weighty, like a Marvel movie (of which I've seen very few, so if this changed in later movies and this complaint seems off, that's why). BB-8 plugs up water electrical leaks while Poe is flying for his life. Is this scene supposed to be tense or humorous? In ANH, when they're fighting off the TIEs after escaping the Death Star, we get a single joke - a small explosion, Leia saying, "we've lost the lateral controls," Han saying "don't worry, she'll hold together," a beat shot of a fire starting, then Han saying under his breath, "y'hear me baby, hold together," and R2 putting out the fire. That's it, that's all the humor in that fight. It's a tense scene, and that doesn't reduce the tension - the danger is incorporated into the joke, but it's not the joke; Han's confidence, which he immediately reveals is a front, is the joke. The "leaky" engine, meanwhile, is the joke. We don't feel the sense of danger because we're laughing at the danger itself (those who were laughing, that is. The scene made me roll my eyes hard). It reduces the tension, which is already reduced by Poe's ridiculous level of super-competence. It's no longer Poe flying for his life in a harzardous situation, it's watching circus trapeze artists - sure, it looks impressive, but it's obviously an act and I don't feel any danger (no slight to circus trapeze artists here).

For another perspective, I'm someone who loves the sense of humor in some Marvel movies - in fact, my favorite Marvel movies are those that are the most comedic (the two Guardians of the Galaxy films and Thor: Ragnarok). I nonetheless feel like the humor in TLJ falls completely flat. A lot of that is simply that the tone of the two series is different: Marvel films are straight up blockbuster action films, where Star Wars is an epic melodrama. The former lends itself a lot better to a less serious tone than the latter, which generally does take itself quite seriously and expects to have a lot of dramatic moments. I love the goofiness of Rocket Racoon or Thor over in Marvel films, but putting anything like that style of humor into Star Wars just isn't appropriate to the style of film the series is.

Which isn't to say that you couldn't do a more comedic, less serious Star Wars film and have it work - but that should be saved for a "Star Wars Story" side-film, not be one of the main "episode" films.

Though to be fair, the sense of humor is extremely low on my list of complaints about TLJ, personally. The problems with the characters and story are the real core of why I think the film is so poor.

2. Ruminations on the Force = I would agree with you here, but they don't really say anything that the EBS didn't. And I don't think anyone needed to be taught that the Force and the Jedi are different; at the very least, those who did need to be taught that likely are the same kind of people who wouldn't pick up on it anyway.

Agreed completely. I scratch my head at the idea that anyone thought that the Force and the Jedi weren't two different things. Who watches the films and doesn't realize something that basic? It's kind of like how someone in another thread suggested that Luke stating that he wasn't going to be able to just walk over the First Order with his lightsaber and solve everything was a big point to make: who the hell thought that was ever going to happen?

That's kind of a thing with a lot of what I see people say are TLJ's "lessons" - they're really shallow and obvious, to the point where they didn't seem like "lessons" at all to me while watching it, just statements of the obvious.

[Daimbert]

Which seems a better way to go. A better arc would be Finn hates the FO not only for what they did to him but what they forced him to do to others. He especially hates himself for what he did in their ranks. Which makes him so readily slaughtering his comrades in the escape understandable. He see's in them himself and is eager to annihilate all memory and trace of his past deeds.
This then makes Rose's message actually mean something

You could also use Garibaldi's admonishment to Sinclair from Babylon 5 to align everything and make her message only a little awkward: Left purposeless, Finn was trying to find something worth dying for because it was easier than finding something worth living for. He started with an obligation, then an unrequited love, and then finally the Resistance. Rose's message could then be a rather dramatic and awkward way of saying what Garibaldi put better.

[Bobb]

You could also use Garibaldi's admonishment to Sinclair from Babylon 5 to align everything and make her message only a little awkward: Left purposeless, Finn was trying to find something worth dying for because it was easier than finding something worth living for. He started with an obligation, then an unrequited love, and then finally the Resistance. Rose's message could then be a rather dramatic and awkward way of saying what Garibaldi put better.

Except that doesn't mesh with what actually happens in TLJ. Finn has no interest in dying and it wasn't until after Rose's indoctrination that he went on the suicide run. The one Rose's sister makes to buy the fleet some time, Admiral Holdo makes to buy the transports some time, and the one Luke makes to buy the survivors some time.

Again, TLJ is at cross purposes with itself.

[Daimbert]

Except that doesn't mesh with what actually happens in TLJ. Finn has no interest in dying and it wasn't until after Rose's indoctrination that he went on the suicide run. The one Rose's sister makes to buy the fleet some time, Admiral Holdo makes to buy the transports some time, and the one Luke makes to buy the survivors some time.

Again, TLJ is at cross purposes with itself.

Oh, if they had gone that way they would have had to establish that Finn was actually doing that. But pretty much every interpretation you can make of this stuff always ends up with you having to ignore things that were in it -- or at least handwave them away -- and wish that more development was added.

TLJ being at cross purposes with itself is indeed its common theme, and is both its blessing and its curse.

[ImperiousLeader]

Yeah, I can't really argue with the logic there, and I'm the same as you as regards later Alien movies or X Men Apocalypse (though I didn't hate Attack of the Clones or The Hobbit). But the experience of watching TLJ was just SO awful that the thought of watching any future Star Wars movies makes me flinch. It feels like something to suffer through, not something to enjoy any more.

I didn't see Dark Phoenix, but that's also due to bad reviews and poor trailer, and I'm legitimately interested in seeing New Mutants. As for awful experiences ... I've tried to watch The Holiday Special, and I cannot. I cannot make it through the whole ... thing. And Attack of the Clones, for me, is almost as unwatchable. Yet I still went to Revenge of the Sith, which wins the award of ... not being Attack of the Clones. So yeah, I still don't get it.

Well, most of your examples are of later works not stopping you from enjoying previous ones, in the sense that you didn't like the later ones but still like the earlier ones. The only case where it isn't is from Attack of the Clones to TLJ, but the number of years in between that changes how that works out.

If we need another example, I actually like Star Trek Beyond the most of all the reboot Trek movies, because it's the one that gives us the most crew of the Enterprise being the crew of the Enterprise. 2009 Trek is great, but it's an origin story. Star Trek Into Darkness ... I enjoyed it in theater, at the time I liked the temerity to redo Wrath of Khan, but the movie has not aged well at all. Or, another example, I loved Star Trek VI after the fiasco of V.

Nemesis (and Enterprise) were bad enough to kill the franchise for awhile, but I didn't stop calling myself a Star Trek fan because of them.

Saph's notes, whether you agree or disagree, are almost entirely about storytelling. More than half of this list has nothing whatsoever to do with storytelling.

I specifically didn't go into story because I'm tired of fighting that same battle over and over and over. I think The Last Jedi's story works, I enjoy it. I like the themes the movie plays in. The performances by the actors is compelling to me, something that cannot be said about the prequels.

To be honest, I don't think the story is the strongest in The Last Jedi, but I find the hysteria over it is hypocritical nitpicking, because things that get a pass in the other movies now don't.

Let's look at one example that's constantly fought over, the Holdo Maneuver. Maybe it's because I'm more a Trek fan than a Wars fan, because I refuse to let it bother me. I've seen Transporters do more world-breaking stuff than the Holdo Maneuver. Han's shenanigans in TFA also break most of the established rules for hyperspace travel, so does the jump from within atmosphere in Rogue One, and the beginning of the Rise of Skywalker. But this is the one that gets pages and pages of pearl-clutching, the universe is broken, lions and lambs are sleeping together, lamentations and woe ...

3. Sense of Humour - Same here, with the added note that this actually took me out of the movie. I don't really care about the Marvel movies, and part of that is the humor seems much too flippant and casual for such high stakes. And that's how I describe a lot of the humor in the entirety of the sequel trilogy - it's Marvel humor.

That isn't a sequel thing ... need I remind you of C-3PO's punning commentary during AotC, or R2's slapstick number with the Battle Droids in RotS? Jar Jar? The farting toad outside Jabba's palace?

Also, Marvel movies are awesome. And I might have liked The Rise of Skywalker more if Avengers Endgame hadn't done it all so much better.

2. Ruminations on the Force = I would agree with you here, but they don't really say anything that the EBS didn't. And I don't think anyone needed to be taught that the Force and the Jedi are different; at the very least, those who did need to be taught that likely are the same kind of people who wouldn't pick up on it anyway.

One of the things TLJ is doing is trying to mediate the differences that the prequels brought up. The idea of balance is not in Yoda's teachings, and TLJ is putting the idea in context of what is said in ESB. That first lesson between Rey and Luke is particularly noteworthy here. In ESB, Yoda refers to the Dark Side as the "quick and easy path". But here, Luke talks about its more seductive elements ... "It offered you something you needed". So I disagree that TLJ isn't doing anything new here.

As for Canto Bight ... I'm so tired of that fight, I'm not repeating it. It's not the strongest part of the movie, but safe to say, I find all the arguments against it here unconvincing. I'm going to link a video that summarizes my take on the matter.

[Peelee]

For another perspective, I'm someone who loves the sense of humor in some Marvel movies - in fact, my favorite Marvel movies are those that are the most comedic (the two Guardians of the Galaxy films and Thor: Ragnarok). I nonetheless feel like the humor in TLJ falls completely flat. A lot of that is simply that the tone of the two series is different: Marvel films are straight up blockbuster action films, where Star Wars is an epic melodrama. The former lends itself a lot better to a less serious tone than the latter, which generally does take itself quite seriously and expects to have a lot of dramatic moments. I love the goofiness of Rocket Racoon or Thor over in Marvel films, but putting anything like that style of humor into Star Wars just isn't appropriate to the style of film the series is.

Which isn't to say that you couldn't do a more comedic, less serious Star Wars film and have it work - but that should be saved for a "Star Wars Story" side-film, not be one of the main "episode" films.

Though to be fair, the sense of humor is extremely low on my list of complaints about TLJ, personally. The problems with the characters and story are the real core of why I think the film is so poor.

I really appreciate your input here, because I wasn't trying to say that Marvel humor is bad; I don't like it, but there's plenty of things I don't like that I recognize I am in the minority on and most people do. I was trying to say how "Marvel humor," as I call it, didn't fit with the sequel trilogy thematically, and you really helped flesh out what I meant better than I did, IMO.

[DataNinja]

Let's look at one example that's constantly fought over, the Holdo Maneuver. Maybe it's because I'm more a Trek fan than a Wars fan, because I refuse to let it bother me. I've seen Transporters do more world-breaking stuff than the Holdo Maneuver. Han's shenanigans in TFA also break most of the established rules for hyperspace travel, so does the jump from within atmosphere in Rogue One, and the beginning of the Rise of Skywalker. But this is the one that gets pages and pages of pearl-clutching, the universe is broken, lions and lambs are sleeping together, lamentations and woe ...

For me, at least... for Star Trek, you kinda need to buy into the conceit that solutions are only going to work once to enjoy the series. It's frustrating when they introduce stuff like "oh, yeah, we can just replicate people who've died with the transport buffer storage", but there's... a consistency in the fact that it's episodic, and so will never be brought up again. It's one of the weakest parts of the franchise, I feel, but it's something that is omnipresent and you have to get past to really get into it.

The stuff with gravity wells and hyperspace jumps and all in Rogue One, TFA, and all that... also frustrating. It's been established a lot about the limitations of hyperspace jumping, and it's annoying that it all just gets tossed out the window... but it doesn't really break anything. Even in the original series, the Hyperdrive failing was what caused the asteroid problem, not being within a gravwell (IIRC, at least).

The ability to do hyperspace rams, though, it just... breaks the entirety of all the battles, everything. X-Wings all have hyperdrives. Why not use them for that, piloted by R2 units or whatever? It just hurts so many aspects of the series, for me at least, that it was just so jarring. I loved the shot, (and, honestly, I'd figured Poe was going to do that same trick himself with his X-Wing v Dreadnought at the start of the movie)… but it just threw me out of it because of how much it felt like it invalidated. That's my view on it, at least.

[Peelee]

Let's look at one example that's constantly fought over, the Holdo Maneuver. Maybe it's because I'm more a Trek fan than a Wars fan, because I refuse to let it bother me. I've seen Transporters do more world-breaking stuff than the Holdo Maneuver. Han's shenanigans in TFA also break most of the established rules for hyperspace travel, so does the jump from within atmosphere in Rogue One, and the beginning of the Rise of Skywalker. But this is the one that gets pages and pages of pearl-clutching, the universe is broken, lions and lambs are sleeping together, lamentations and woe ...

I agree with you about all those other things similarly breaking Canon (except maybe Rogue One; it does bother me, but I can reasonably handqave that one as the Death Star blast tweaking with gravity enough to allow the jump). Even further, I dislike how they make hyperspace more or less instantaneous. I feel like I've been rather outspoken about those as well, in addition to other issues in the movies. Hell, I even go after Abrams' Star Trek reboot for breaking the universe, since they can now use the transporter at massively larger ranges, and even on ships at warp from a planet. That fundamentally changes an enormous amount of the ST universe but never comes up again, which is bad storytelling, and I'll go after that just as much as the Holdo maneuver, or R2 waking up for no dang reason in TFA, or half the stuff that happens solely because the plot demands it in TROS. Because bad storytelling should be brought to task. The Holdo maneuver gets the attention it does because it's a pivotal moment; the movie makes it a big deal, so the complaint that others make it a big deal doesn't really stand up. The movie opened the door, we're allowed to walk through it. I just happen to note all the other doors as well.

Also, i agree on all the prequel messes. But we're not talking about those, now are we?

[Devonix]

Ok so I have problems with, and confusion about the way the Holdo Manuver is discussed.

Here's the thing. It's not something that breaks the science or world of Starwars. This is the type of thing that should happen in a universe with FTL Travel. I'm assuming most people are just wondering why it doesn't happen often.

Well for me the answer is twofold.:
One It's too dangerous and unlikely to work most of the time. To do it you have to remain practically stationary and within close range of the target you're going to do it on, and most likely you're going to just get shot up and disabled, or destroyed before you can do it. You also have comparable mass to the target that you're doing it to as shown in the film. The only things that the Raddius destroyed were ships smaller than itself. The Supremacy was damaged, but not destroyed.

And two It's just one of the many things that exist in a scifi universe that you've got to accept aren't going to be used as part of a story that often, because that's not what the story is focusing on.

To me what Han did in Force Awakens is far far more science breaking and worldbreaking. He Jumped inside of shields. That one moment, that one event renders planetary shielding completely irrelivent for the series. Hell it renders shields irrelivant period, because if you know the coordinates of your target you can simply hyperspace your payload directly past the shields and hit the target directly. Shields don't work anymore in Starwars.