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[Sayt]

Here's Eddie "Pincerhand", a truly nasty (in every sense of the word) grappling and demoralization focused Fiendbound Marauder and Ordained Defender based example build for the warder guide! He's a bit of a cross-over kitchen thing, being served on a generous foundation of hearty Tetori monk and topped with a splash of raging hot Primal Disciple barbarian. But I still think Eddie very much fits in a warder cook book class guide and I hope people will enjoy the mixed crunch and flavor as much as I do.

Since this write-up is very long and detailed, including quite a bit of fluff as well as explanations of the crunchy bits (I had fun making this), I suggest you simply link to this post. I can of course also provide a short blurb to go with that, and/or a highly condensed summary if you like.

I'd be grateful for any comments/suggestions/critique/praise!

Spoiler: Eddie Pincerhand - Build Goals and Notes

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Eddie is intended to showcase some of the rather unique melee control and debuff potential the Fiendbound Marauder warder archetype has, and especially some of the grapple and demoralization related feats and multiclass options which IMO have both fluff and crunch that go particularly well with the archetype. He is also intended to be an example of a warder based build fully playable as a PC in a real game. This means I've aimed to give him quite a few tools useful in a majority of adventuring situations (both in and outside of combat) and a good deal of survivability, using options which I believe also support an interesting, coherent and unique flavor.

In addition, Eddie is intended to be a plug-'n'-play NPC, with a personal history which should make him easy to use exactly as written in a Golarion game, as a villain or a potential ally of the PCs.

It should be noted that Eddie is here described as a neutral evil worshiper of Zon-Kuthon, partially because I wanted to give an example of how I believe these two more controversial character elements can be expressed without being disruptive in an otherwise non-evil party and campaign, and partially simply because I think they go so damn well with the original fluff of the other options and makes for an interesting backstory in the Golarion setting. Regardless, no options are tied to the Golarion setting, and by simply replacing the [evil] Shadow Raptor Swarm, the build can instead have a neutral alignment.

CAUTION! If played according to RAW, Eddie's demoralization and grapple combos can be too strong for some games, and/or behave in a "binary" fashion potentially difficult for a GM to adapt the opposition to. I've therefore included a few simple house rule suggestions (see Combined Mechanics spoiler) for making them less so yet still well worth the considerable investments.

Spoiler: Eddie Pincerhand - 13th Level Summary

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The following details Eddie while he is raging, in the Black Seraph Style and Stance of the Thunderbrand stances, and affected by Time Skitter, enlarge person and long arm (cast from his wands by party member).

Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monk (Tetori) 4/Barbarian (Primal Disciple) 2/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder, Ordained Defender) 7
NE Huge male humanoid outsider (akashic*, native, orc)
*Strictly RAW, this should be the human subtype, but since Eddie is a tiefling of alqarn descent, his Pass for Human ART has been slightly altered for a better fit.

Initiative +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +24 (+26 vs chaotic or evil outsiders)
Auras Aegis 10 ft. (allies gain +1 morale to AC and Will), Black Seraph Annihilation 30 ft. (foes lose immunity to fear, those immune to mind-affecting gain +5 resistance vs fear)


DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 24; +3 profane vs scared* (12 armor, 1 natural, 4 shield, 1 deflection, 5 dodge, -2 size, -2 rage)
HP 167 (8+9d12+3d8 hit dice, 78 Con, 7 favored class)
Fort +21, Ref +10, Will +19; +2 vs enchantment; +3 profane vs scared*
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 15, electricity 5, fire 5; uncanny dodge
Weakness damned (unaffected by breath of life and raise dead, non-evil caster must make DC 25 CL check to bring Eddie back from death)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE (all values including Power Attack)
Speed 40 ft.
Melee pain's grip or fear's grip +22/+22/+17/+12 (4d6+22 plus demoralize, grab and the dark mark),
or unarmed strike +21/+21/+16/+11 (4d6+21 plus demoralize and the dark mark)
Space 15 ft., Reach 25 ft., 40 ft. with fiend's grips (40 ft., 55 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks Cornugon Smash (demoralize vs foe damaged by melee, Intimidate +35), grab (CMB +40, hit effects as fiend's grip)

Special Abilities
Adaptive Tactics Eddie may replace up to 4 readied maneuvers as full-round action
Attacks of Opportunity Eddie can make 6 AoOs/round, and may replace normal attack with a standard action combat maneuver
Counter-Grapple Eddie can make an AoO against a foe without the Greater Grapple feat which attempts to grapple him
Demoralization foes in 30 ft. of Eddie lose immunity to fear, multiple demoralize successes increase fear condition instead of duration
Fiend's Grip as a free action, Eddie may manifest his fiend's grips, and these are treated as ghost touch weapons
Graceful Grappler Eddie takes no penalties when grappling or pinning a foe, and can still make AoOs
Ki Pool 7 ki points/day, Eddie can spend 1 point as swift action for +20 ft. speed or +4 dodge to AC for 1 round
Rage during 14 rounds/day, Eddie gains +6 morale to Str and Con, and he is not fatigued when the rage ends
Raging Grappler initiating a grapple has effects as if Eddie hit with a fiend's grip, and Eddie may knock a grappled foe prone when maintaining
Spell-Like Ability alter self 1/day, 13 minutes, CL 13
The Dark Mark up to 8/day when damaging a foe, Eddie may curse and mark the foe for 4 rounds (-4 to attack other than Eddie, +13% ASF)
Vicious Stomp Eddie may make an unarmed strike as an AoO against an enemy falling prone adjacent to him

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 12, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's Glare^BS1, Primal Warrior Stance^PF3, Stance of the Thunderbrand^PT5 active
Boosts Time Skitter^RH3 active, 3 rounds remaining
Counters Intruder’s End^EG3, Shadow Pin^CR5, Vengeful Riposte^BS4
Strikes Cornered Frenzy Strike^PF5
Recovery full-round: recovers 4 maneuvers, defensive focus for +15' reach, CMD 54 vs Acrobatics checks to avoid AoO
Known Fear the Reaper^EG2, Make them Humble^FE4, Shadow Raptor Swarm^BS6, Witchfinder's Brand^CR4

Barbarian Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 7, Wisdom
Stances Iron Pikeman’s Attitude^PT1
Boosts Leaping Dragon^TD1, Minute Hand^RH1
Strikes Panthera on the Hunt^PF1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains 1 round of rage
Known Encouraging Roar^GL1


STATISTICS
Str 33, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 5
Bab +12; CMB +29 (using fiend's grip +38, grapple +44) as Gargantuan; CMD 43 (46 vs grapple) as Gargantuan

Feats Black Seraph Annihilation^I, Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph's Malevolence, Combat Reflexes^B, Cornugon Smash^I, Equipment Trick (rope)^I, Fiendskin, Haft Strike^B, Improved Grapple^B, Improved Unarmed Strike^B, Intimidating Prowess, Mighty Frame^F, Power Attack, Seize the Opportunity^B, Soulless Gaze, Stunning Fist^B, Stunning Pin^B, Vicious Stomp^I, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)^I
BBonus feat granted by class feature or martial tradition. ^IFeat granted by magic item (training weapon or ioun stone). ^FFeat from Bloodforge.

Trained Skills Bluff +18^H, Disguise +10 (+20 using alter self), Intimidate +35, Knowledge (martial) +5, Knowledge (planes) +11^R, Knowledge (religion) +5^R, Perception +24^R, Sense Motive +19
^HHeresy Inquisition up to 4/day, Eddie may roll a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Stealth check twice and take best result
^RReverents of the Lance allegiance benefit +2 to Knowledge and Perception checks related to outsiders with chaotic or evil subtype

Languages Abyssal, Common, Infernal
Alternate Racial Traits alqarn heritage (Large size), Pass for Alqarn*; SQ powerful build, strong lawful and evil aura
Traits Mixed Blood (orc), Practiced Initiator (warder), Unorthodox Method (Riven Hourglass); Drawback Foul Brand (hand)
Martial Tradition Reverents of the Lance (Piercing Thunder)
*This is a slight tweak of the Pass for Human ART, since Eddie is a tiefling of alqarn descent, not human.

Gear pain's grip (+1 training (Equipment Trick (rope), Vicious Stomp) Gargantuan gauntlet), fear's grip (+1 training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Cornugon Smash) Gargantuan gauntlet), angered¹ furious amulet of mighty fists, dwarven boulder helmet, barbazu beard, +3 spiked hellknight plate of +1 natural armor and protection², +3 buckler, belt (+4 Str, +2 Con)², "piercings of the midnight inquisition" (headband slot; +4 Wisdom; +2 Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive, saves)², bracelet of charms³ with 5 charms of anger³, cracked dusty rose prism, cracked opalescent white pyramid (spiked gauntlet) in wayfinder, cracked pale green prism (2), wand of enlarge person and long arm, lots of rope, approx. 500 gp (remainder of 140,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Item from Bloodforge.
2 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "generic" bonuses to (any) slotted item).
3 Item from Steelforge.

Spoiler: Values in Detail

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ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 33 16 base, 2 race, 3 level, 4 enhancement (belt), 6 morale (4 rage, 2 angered weapon), 2 size enlarge person
Dex 10 12 base, -2 size enlarge person
Con 22 14 base, 2 enhancement (belt), 6 morale (4 rage, 2 angered weapon)
Int 12 12 base
Wis 20 14 base, 2 race, 4 enhancement (piercings)
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race


DEFENSE VALUES
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (10 + 12 armor (+3 plate), 1 natural enhancement (+1 plate of natural armor), 4 shield (+3 buckler), 1 deflection (+1 plate of protection), 5 dodge (haste (Time Skitter), Stance of the Thunderbrand), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Fort +21 (6 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 5 warder, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Ref +10 (4 monk, 2 warder, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +19 (5 Wis, 4 monk, 5 warder, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 2 rage)

CMD
Base CMD 43 (10 + 12 bab, 13 Str, 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 5 dodge (haste (Time Skitter), Stance of the Thunderbrand), 4 size (Large race, Mighty Frame, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Grapple 46 (43 base CMD, 1 graceful grappler (monk levels as bab), 2 Improved Grapple)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 20 ft. / 35 ft. with fiend's grips (15 Huge size (Large race, enlarge person), 5 living bastion / 15 Huge reach weapon)

Attack and Damage
Fiend's Grips Attack Bonus +22 (12 bab, 11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage, -4 Power Attack)
Unarmed Strike Attack Bonus +20 (22 as fiend's grips above except: -1 no Weapon Focus, -1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Damage Bonus +22 (unarmed strike +21) (11 Str, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 8 Power Attack (-1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Damage Die 4d6 (1d8 Medium size fiend's grip/4th level monk -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 3d6 Huge size (Mighty Frame) -> 4d6 Gargantuan size (enlarge person))

CMB
Base CMB +29 (12 bab, 1 maneuver training (monk levels as bab), 11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 4 size (Large race, Mighty Frame, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Using Fiend's Grips +38 (29 base CMB, 5 Wis (canny pugilist), 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon))
Grapple +44 (38 as fiend's grips, 4 grab, 2 Improved Grapple)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +1 (1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Trained Skills
Total Skill Ranks 65 (13 levels x (4 class, 1 Int))
Bluff +18 (10 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis (Heresy Inquisition))
Disguise +10 (+20 using alter self) (10 ranks, 3 class skill, -3 Cha, 2 race, -2 Foul Brand (10 alter self bonus))
Intimidate +35 (11 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis (Heresy Inquisition), 11 Str (Intimidating Prowess), 2 race, 2 competence (piercings))
Knowledge (martial) +5 (1 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int)
Knowledge (planes) +11 (+13 concerning chaotic or evil outsiders) +4 (10 ranks, 1 Int (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Knowledge (religion) +5 (+7 concerning chaotic or evil outsiders) +4 (1 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Perception +24 (+26 vs chaotic or evil outsiders) (13 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 competence (piercings) (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Sense Motive +19 (9 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 competence (piercings))

Spoiler: Level Progression

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Level	Class	Features	Feats retrained@ level intoR
1	Monk 1	Graceful grappler (level as bab for grapple), stunning fist, unarmed strike	Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Stunning FistB
2	Monk 2	Evasion	Stunning PinB
3	Monk 3	Fast movement, maneuver training, still mind	Mighty Frame
4	Monk 4	Counter-grapple, graceful grappler (no grapple penalties), ki pool (magic)	Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)I
5	Warder 1	Aura, defensive focus, fiend’s grip	Combat ReflexesB, Seize the Opportunity11
6	Warder 2	The dark mark	Haft StrikeB
7	Warder 3	Divine gift (heresy inquisition)	Black Seraph Style, Equipment Trick (rope)I
8	Warder 4	Canny Pugilist	-
9	Warder 5	Improved fiend’s grip (free action, ghost touch)	Cornugon SmashI, Power Attack
10	Barbarian 1	-	-
11	Barbarian 2	Ancestral style, rage power (raging grappler), uncanny dodge	Black Seraph AnnihilationI, Black Seraph's MalevolenceR, Fiendskin (cold), Seize the OpportunityB
12	Warder 6	Aegis +1 (10 ft.)	-
13	Warder 7	Adaptive tactics	Soulless Gaze, Vicious StompI

FLUFF

Spoiler: Description

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Eddie "Pincerhand" is a former Silent Enforcer and elite soldier of Nidal and Zon-Kuthon, now an adventurer and demon hunter in a self-imposed exile after the catastrophic failure of his first military mission.

Though he initially only accepted to join the small group of odd individuals that saved his life out of necessity, Eddie has come to value and even respect the undeniably useful talents, dedication and loyalty each of them have shown during their many adventures together. And despite the annoying personalities and laughably naive beliefs his rag-tag flock of eccentric outcasts frequently displays, they are now nevertheless his flock, an idea which has him lash out with lethal force against anyone or anything that would so much as think of trying to steal a member of his flock from him, and has him protecting them with the near suicidal zeal and fury of a tigress protecting her cubs.

The traumatic experiences of Eddie's failed military mission against demonic forces, along with his subsequent travels outside of Nidal, have of course changed both his view of the world and his personal religious beliefs. And most importantly, he is convinced his lingering questions and doubts about his faith have actually been answered by the Midnight Lord himself, his strangely alien deep rasping whispers as loud as thunder in Eddie's ears when he finally dared pray again for the first time since leaving Nidal. But what surprised Eddie the most was not hearing the Dark Prince speak to him, but that the deafening words made so much sense, that they contained such simple yet elegant and suitably razor sharp logic.

Regardless of the objective truth of the matter - if such a thing even exists - Eddie was forever changed by what he believes to have been a most personal and private conversation with his nihilistic god. And ever since that conversation, he has not seen any reason to actively seek to provoke, judge or hurt those who have not attempted to hurt him, while he also no longer sees any reason for not giving himself completely to the pure sadistic ecstasy he feels while "sharing the pleasures of pain" with his true enemies. It is as if the voice of the fanatic fiend in him has found a way to speak in unison with the voice of the more compassionate humanoid as well as that of the pragmatic skeptic in him, two voices now finally allowed to be heard again after having been suppressed during decades of intense religious indoctrination.

Despite his newly found inner balance and redefined relationship with Zon-Kuthon, most people still find Eddie an ugly creature with a humorless and decidedly gloomy view of the world and its inhabitants. But the truth is Eddie often tries to maintain this illusion of lacking social skills, making it easier for him to hide the fact that he is actually a highly observant listener and an accomplished liar, trained by some of Golarion's greatest masters of interrogation and subtle deception. In sharp contrast to his dour outlook and seeming disinterest in people, Eddie suddenly comes to life when expecting violence, his eyes gaining a fiendish red glow and his wide mouth a cruel smile of sadistic glee, the tip of his tongue playing across his lips in excitement. And even hardened war veterans who have been the unfortunate witnesses of Eddies behavior in combat are often profoundly shaken by the experience, wishing they could forget the deeply disturbing memories of already incapacitated enemies screaming in pain and horror while being slowly mutilated by Eddie's enormous serrated pincers, not to mention the expression of pure bliss on his bloodstained face.

Though Eddie is even larger than normal rhinofolk, his relatively slim and long-limbed proportions, pale skin and normally hunched posture would almost make him appear old and frail next to his stockier relatives, when in truth his wiry compact muscles gives him enormous strength. And in the eyes of humans and most other civilized races, Eddie is a towering barrel-chested giant, standing 9 feet tall and weighing approximately 550 pounds if measured in his bare skin and with his back uncharacteristically straight. (While equipped and enlarged, as shown above, Eddie is 18 feet tall and weighs approximately 4,750 pounds.)

Spoiler: Background

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Eddie was born almost 80 years ago near the Brazen Peaks in the Mwangi Expanse, but was stolen from his small tribe of alqarn by slavers, sold in Katapesh, brought across the Inner Sea and then sold yet again while still a young child. In what would prove to be one of the rare lucky events in Eddie's life, he ended up as the property of a surprisingly kind and caring middle-aged Chelish merchant noblewoman. In her service, Eddie spent the following four decades in relative freedom, growing up content and mostly happy, sheltered and blissfully ignorant of much of the prejudice, fear and hatred the civilized world has in store for those born different. But Eddie was in for a rude awakening when his elderly mistress unexpectedly died during a return journey from Korvosa, apparently while she had been peacefully asleep in her cabin as her ship slowly crept south across Conqueror's Bay. The superstitious ship crew almost immediately started eyeing the shy and oddly looking Eddie with suspicion, and not more than a day after the death of his beloved mistress, the cold hearted captain set course for the closest harbor and then abandoned the shocked Eddie crying on the docks of Nisroch.

Afraid, cold and hungry without so much as a copper to buy food Eddie paced the oddly clean and eerily silent streets of the city, unsuccessfully pleading for help from the few and clearly disapproving citizens he met. Within hours, he was spotted by a pair of patrolling Silent Enforcers who immediately saw him guilty of loitering and begging. But before they had managed to beat Eddie to death, his whimpering pleading and the fine quality of his clothes led them to conclude that he was a slave recently and illegally abandoned by his owner, and seemingly still a child despite his size, and so they decided to bring their strange find before the Silent One to be considered as a recruit. That same night, Eddie was forced into the sinister training and indoctrination program of the Silent Shroud, his voice burned from his throat and the chained skull of Zon-Kuthon burned into the back of his hand soon thereafter.

Some thirty years later, Eddie was fully grown and transformed into a loyal servant of Zon-Kuthon and the Shrouded One, and his imposing size and brutally effective signature wrestling fighting style had made him feared on the streets of Nisroch as well as the cause of much obvious envy from fellow Silent Enforcers. And one day, word of Eddie's exotic appearance and martial prowess also happened to reach the ears of one of Nidal's generals visiting the city. Intrigued, the general decided to find out how much truth there was to the rumors about this odd Silent Enforcer, and arranged for a couple of seasoned soldiers in his retinue to fight Eddie, promising his mysterious leader a hefty compensation should Eddie be killed. After seeing Eddie swiftly incapacitating the two fully armed soldiers with his bare hands and then starting to calmly torture his helpless foes by breaking fingers and crushing toes, the general seemed pleased and ordered an agent of the Umbral Court to test Eddie for special training in Ridwan, claiming such skills would better serve Nidal's interests if properly cultivated and directed by the military.

Not more than a year later, Eddie had already caught up with the senior students at Schola Cruciamenia*, Ridwan's most elite military academy, his fiendish heritage giving him an uncanny knack for quickly mastering the mercilessly cruel and frightening martial disciplines and techniques favored by ordained champions of the Midnight Lord. During this year, Eddie was also for the first time in his life not only allowed but encouraged to explore and develop the supernatural powers hiding in his rare mixed blood. Through hard and persistent work he was finally able to will his body into the shape of any humanoid for several minutes, and to stretch his arms and transform his gauntleted hands into terrifying barbed pincer-like weapons. His unique talents and dedication were eventually also recognized and rewarded by his tutors, first by allowing him to receive the blessings of a Zon-Kuthon high priest to restore his voice, and then by declaring him ready for the final lethal exams years before any of the equally junior students would be considered.

But despite his many successes, Eddie never made any friends and remained shy and awkward in social situations where he was expected to be himself. And perhaps more importantly, even after being subjected to decades of constant and calculated political and religious indoctrination by his masters and tutors, Eddie was still harboring doubts about the superiority of Nidal and its forces, as well as that of certain aspects of Zon-Kuthon's teachings.

*This name was made up by me 'cause I couldn't find any names of Nidalese martial art/military schools in Paizo material. It's Latin and roughly translates into "school/elite troop of soldiers/sect (of) pain/torment/torture". Seemed fitting...

Spoiler: Eddie Pincerhand - Combined Mechanics

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The following describes Eddie's two most noteworthy mechanical combos (aside from the more obvious ones providing size increases and purely numerical bonuses). These combos are typically available in every fight, and are of course accompanied by synergizing maneuvers which further increase Eddie's capabilities as a control and debuff focused defender.

Painfull Pacifying Pincerhand
Seize the Opportunity is a fantastically powerful feat, and Eddie uses it with grapple related options it to immediately reposition and tie up enemies hit by his a melee attacks.

1. Fiend's Grip Most of the melee attacks Eddie makes have the grab ability, allowing him to start a grapple as a free action if he hits, and he may grapple incorporeal creatures thanks to the ghost touch quality of his fiend's grips.
2. Graceful Grappler When grappled, Eddie doesn't suffer the penalties to attack or AC, and can still make AoOs.
3. Grapple RAW "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."
4. Stance of the Thunderbrand The automatic movement of an opponent Eddie grapples (as per point #3) allows him to make an AoO.
5. Seize the Opportunity Eddie can attempt to maintain a grapple when the grappled opponent provokes an AoO, and he may thus immediately both start and maintain a grapple when he hits a non-adjacent opponent with any kind of melee attack made with either of his fiend's grips.
6. Raging Grappler Eddie deals damage and triggers other hit effects (demoralization etc) also when he initiates a grapple, meaning a single melee attack hit will often have the same effects as that of two hits. In addition, whenever Eddie maintains a grapple (such as per point #5), he may give his opponent and/or himself the prone condition. Notably, this is not a trip attempt, and thus bypasses all those pesky immunities or bonuses opponents often have against that combat maneuver (flight, weird physiology, no/several legs etc).
7. Vicious Stomp When an opponent falls prone adjacent to Eddie (such as per point #6), he can make an unarmed strike AoO against that opponent. Since Eddie can also manifest and stop manifesting his fiend's grips, he can usually make this unarmed strike with his normal gauntleted hand, gaining the associated bonuses (typically as per unarmed strike detailed in the Offense section in the build summary).
8. Equipment Trick (rope) Eddie only takes a –5 penalty to his grapple check when attempting to tie up an opponent he grapples.

Soulless Seraph Smash
Seems practicing scary faces in front of mirror, cultivating relationships with certain individuals in the "underworld", and just being a cold-hearted sadist in general definitely has its merits... (Now doesn't that send a wonderfully cynical moral message? It's practically giving all the self-righteous goody-two-shoes hero schmucks a big fat EVIL^TM finger!)

1. Cornugon Smash Eddie can make a demoralization attempt as a free action against an enemy he damages with a melee attack while using Power Attack. It's worth noting that a grapple check is a melee attack affected by Power Attack.
2. Soulless Gaze When Eddie successful demoralizes a target already suffering the effects of his previous demoralization, the fear condition worsens (up to panicked from three successful attempts), instead of increasing the shaken condition by another round.
3. Black Seraph Style Eddie gains scaling profane bonuses to AC and saves against the attacks and effects made by enemies suffering from a fear condition.
4. Black Seraph Annihilation All enemies within 30 ft. of Eddie lose their immunity to fear, although those immune to mind-affecting gain a +5 resistance bonus to saves against fear. So yeah, undead, constructs, aberrations...
5. Heresy Inquisition Eddie has a pathetic Cha score, so luckily this allows him to add his Wis instead of his Cha to Intimidate (and Bluff) checks.
6. Intimidating Prowess Lets Eddie add his Str mod to Intimidate checks, in addition to his Wis mod. And since Eddie is pretty darn strong and wise, he'll easily succeed on those checks against virtually every enemy he's likely to face.

Combined Result
Together with the Eddie's other options, the two above combos result in the following whenever Eddie hits a non-adjacent foe with a melee attack using his fiend's grip and Power Attack, regardless of whether that melee attack was a made as part of a full attack, charge, martial maneuver, AoO, etc. (Action/event with increased indent is dependent on the last action/event with less indent being successful, including average damage (but not crit damage) and typical results of other effects.)

1. Damage the target takes 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

2. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make a demoralize attempt (Intimidate +35 vs DC = 10 + target's HD + target's Wis mod): the target is shaken for at least 1 round, and Eddie gains +3 profane to AC and saves vs target's attacks/effects.

3. Grab granted by fiend's grips - Eddie makes grapple check to initiate a grapple as a free action (CMB +40): Eddie and the target are grappling, but Eddie takes no penalties from the condition and can still make AoOs.

4. Damage granted by Raging Grappler - the target takes another 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

5. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is frightened for at least 1 round.

6. Grapple Move the grappled enemy is moved to a free space adjacent to Eddie.

7. AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - the target's movement provokes an AoO from Eddie

8. Tie Up granted by Seize the Opportunity and Equipment Trick (rope) - Eddie may make a grapple check to maintain the grapple and immediately tie up the target instead of making a normal AoO (CMB +40: -5 to Tie Up grappled, +5 to maintain grapple): the target is tied up and must make a DC 60 grapple or Escape Artist check to free itself.

9. Damage granted by fiend's grips - the target takes another 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

10. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is panicked for at least 1 round.

11. Prone granted by Raging Grappler - Eddie knocks the target prone.

12. AoO granted by Vicious Stomp - the adjacent target falling prone provokes an unarmed strike AoO from Eddie

13. Damage granted by unarmed strike - the target takes another 35 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

14. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is panicked for at least +1 additional round.

If you take Fortuitous on your amulet of mighty fists, it could get even sillier!

[upho]

If you take Fortuitous on your amulet of mighty fists, it could get even sillier!

I don't actually think I've ever found Fortuitous to be worth the +1 cost even in a game limited to Paizo options, not to mention a game with PoW content. The -5 attack penalty is just too much, especially when considering the fact that there are quite a few other and IMO superior options which grant additional AoOs. And I find this even more true for a build like Eddie, who has already spent a minor fortune on his weapons and really likes his rage booster enchantments and the extra feats from his Training weapons. So instead, Eddie would use his Intruder's End when facing a horde of enemies, giving him a total of 11 AoOs for one round. Enough for him to be able to tie up and scare the living daylights out of up to six or more enemies during that round.

[Sayt]

I don't actually think I've ever found Fortuitous to be worth the +1 cost even in a game limited to Paizo options, not to mention a game with PoW content. The -5 attack penalty is just too much, especially when considering the fact that there are quite a few other and IMO superior options which grant additional AoOs. And I find this even more true for a build like Eddie, who has already spent a minor fortune on his weapons and really likes his rage booster enchantments and the extra feats from his Training weapons. So instead, Eddie would use his Intruder's End when facing a horde of enemies, giving him a total of 11 AoOs for one round. Enough for him to be able to tie up and scare the living daylights out of up to six or more enemies during that round.

Really? Cause this is making me doubt I'm reading Fortuitous right. The way I figured this worked was, in a sample build Of Greater Trip+Vicious Stomp+Fortuitous amulet, you go Trip->AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(at-5)

It could just be the Optimisation level I build at though, and Eddie is still really scary anyway.

[upho]

Here's another build! This little stalker based troll has much less elaborate descriptions than Eddie "Pincerhand", so you should be able to basically copy and paste him into the guide.

Spoiler: True Terror Troll - 13th Level Build Outline

Show

Troll is scary. Really scary. And by that, I don't just mean he's probably scarier than any other PF character you've seen, I mean he's so scary every enemy within 30 ft. of him is likely to cower in fear and have great trouble even laying their eyes on him after his opening turn. In every fight, all day long, every day. And because Troll doesn't understand the concept of a fair fight, and nothing makes him happier than seeing the look of pure horror on the faces of bad guys when he suddenly pops up out of nowhere, screaming at the top of his lungs, and punches them in the unmentionables, he's also really sneaky.

BEWARE! No matter how much he may plead, beg and promise to behave, the True Terror Troll will still end up wreaking absolute havoc on most games and shouldn't be let anywhere near them. But you can still make him a happy troll if you take a page or two from his book of combined nightmare shenanigans and do some more modest trolling for him.

Grendle Aegis (Aberrant) 1/Dread (Nightmare) 1/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Stalker (Brutal Slayer) 9
Troll is LN (and since he grew up with nice parents who didn't troll him, he's actually LG until he starts hanging out with exactly the kind of people his mother told him to stay away from).

Class Progression, Feats and Notable Features
1 Aegis 1 Intimidating Prowess; customizations: climb, tentacle(?)
2 Dread 1 devastating touch
3 Monk 1 Black Seraph Style, Broken Dreams Style^B, Improved Unarmed Strike^B, Stunning Fist^B
4 Warlord 1 daring gambit (dastardly gambit), dazzling gambit, salt in the wound: Improved^B & Greater Dirty Trick^B
5 Stalker 1 Fiendskin; combat art: furious strikes
6 Stalker 2
7 Stalker 3 Soulless Gaze; combat art: Shattered Dream Strike^B
8 Stalker 4
9 Stalker 5 Combat Style Master
10 Stalker 6
11 Stalker 7 Black Seraph's Malevolence; combat art: brutal ambush
12 Stalker 8
13 Stalker 9 Dazzling Display
Item training cestus: Black Seraph Annihilation
Item training cestus: Disheartening Display
Item training amulet of mighty fists: Nightmare Veil
Item cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder: Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel: Lurker in Darkness

Ability Scores 20-point buy
Str 22/30 16 base, 2 level, 4 enhancement (belt) / 8 brutal strikes
Dex 10 10 base
Con 16 12 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement (belt)
Int 8 10 base, -2 race
Wis 20 15 base, 1 level, 4 enhancement (headband)
Cha 14 12 base, 2 race

Other Stuff
Important Maneuvers Beat the Clock and preferably Blade-Dance Ballet, Tempest Tango Blitz (from Fool's Errand), or anything else allowing for both (non-charge) movement and at least three accurate unarmed strikes
Traits Practiced Initiator (stalker), Wisdom in the Flesh (Stealth)
Alternate Racial Traits Imperious Bearing

True Terror Trolling
This is an example of how Troll does his thing using Tempest Tango Blitz in an opening turn.

1. Troll enters the Black Seraph Style stance when initiative is rolled, and then the Broken Dreams Style stance as a free action on his turn (MoMS monk, Combat Style Master)
2. Troll initiates Tempest Tango Blitz:

A. sneaks up to a foe not yet aware of him or one who has not yet acted (ie a flat-footed foe), moving up to his speed (typically 60+ ft.) to a position within 30 ft. of as many enemies as possible. (Tempest Tango Blitz)
B. makes an unarmed strike while shouting "Peekaboo!", adding his devastating touch and activating his brutal strikes for a +8 bonus to his Str. (Tempest Tango Blitz, Broken Dreams Style, brutal ambush, devastating touch, furious strikes)
C. makes a demoralize attempt as a free action to make all enemies within 30 ft. shaken. (Shattered Dream Strike, Imperious Bearing)
D. gains concealment from all shaken enemies, moves up to 10 ft. and makes a Stealth check to hide. (Nightmare Veil, Tempest Tango Blitz)
E. Troll then repeats B - D three more times, attacking the same enemy or another one, gaining his brutal strikes and invisibility bonuses on every attack thanks to being concealed and moving to hide between each attack, so every enemy within 30 ft. are now panicked, even if they're otherwise immune to fear or mind-affecting effects. (Tempest Tango Blitz, Nightmare Veil, Soulless Gaze, Black Seraph Annihilation)

3. The moment Troll has ended his turn, he initiates Beat the Clock and makes a Dazzling Display, making every enemy within 30 ft. cowering and unable to do anything for at the very least 3 rounds (usually at least 7 rounds). (Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display)
4. Troll giggles while his allies executes the survivors and steals their stuff.

[upho]

Really? Cause this is making me doubt I'm reading Fortuitous right. The way I figured this worked was, in a sample build Of Greater Trip+Vicious Stomp+Fortuitous amulet, you go Trip->AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(at-5)

That's exactly how I read it as well. I should've made it clear I was thinking specifically for a control/debuff AoO defender build like Eddie, because for a more damage focused character I also think Fortuitous can be great, especially when combined with trip since the prone condition almost completely voids the -5 attack penalty.

But for mentioned defender builds, my experience has been that there always seem to be more urgently needed enchants/items, like Dueling (PFSG/psionic), Leveraging, Phase Locking, Titanic armor, etc. Meaning stuff that quickly become vital during mid levels for you to be able to do your thing with any reasonable success chance, and for that thing to have enough impact to be worth the investments already made. For initiators, it has also been my experience that Fortuitous offers a less unique advantage than for Paizo martials, since maneuvers opens up for quite a few combos which can both generate additional AoO triggers and give you plenty of additional AoOs during a round. And now when Training exists, it seems chances are Fortuitous will be worthwhile even less often for these typically very feat starved defender builds.

But admittedly, I guess my views on these things make me a bit of an outlier, since I seem to have this obsession with martial builds able to be truly effective without having to deal virtually any damage at all.

It could just be the Optimisation level I build at though, and Eddie is still really scary anyway.

I dunno 'bout that. If a player actually made a build like Eddie and expecting it to work according to RAW in a game I run, I think it would be because the game was actually more of a Tippy-style one-off, or because I had done a poor job communicating the game's power level.

...Or simply that my leg was being pulled in case it was suggested by a player in my regular group. Similar quite hilarious jokes at my expense have been attempted and embarrassingly often successful in the past...

[FabulousChester]

Another question: What's a good entry for Landsknecht?

I was thinking either Warlord or Warder, potentially with the Bushi archetype?

[Sayt]

Zweihander Sentinel would be a better entry than a vanilla Warder

[FabulousChester]

Isn't that counter to the Landsknecth's core concept?

Edit: I know Landsknecht historically used two-handed weapons, but the PrC itself seems to promote one-handed (+ shield maybe).

[Swaoeaeieu]

Another question: What's a good entry for Landsknecht?

I was thinking either Warlord or Warder, potentially with the Bushi archetype?

i was going to add this to the guide at some point.

but it looks like the landsknecht has the most synergy with a bushy warder.
but honestly it goes well with warlord as well.

you can twohand with a landsknecht, the class feature just means it doesnt matter damagewise if you one hand or not.

[upho]

Speaking of trip and Fortuitous, here's a damage focused warder/psion/awakened blade sample build incorporating those options:

Spoiler: Awakened Warder

Show

Combining the warder with a psion dip and the amazing Awakened Blade PrC gives fantastic power and versatility, adding substantial raw number boosts to both offense and defense, improved action economy, awesome buffs for a melee defender (metamorphosis at 10th level or earlier!), and tons of utility.

Since the metamorphosis line's size increases are one of the major selling points of this class combo, it's best as Str based with the psychometabolism (egoist) psion discipline, and goes especially well with an aasimar, skinwalker or tiefling of gamla heritage for a Large starting size. Otherwise, this kind of build excels at any melee combat focus that goes well with the warder, such as control, damage and/or debuff. It's significantly stronger than straight warder in virtually all cases, and arguably at least on par with the similar zealot/wilder/awakened blade variant, losing raging surge and the ability to augment maneuvers, but gaining numerous additional powers, skill points and a better power progression. Despite not making use of the Awakened Blade's Warrior's Path feature, both of these Awakened Blade build combos are also substantially stronger than those with psychic warrior or soulknife based manifestation progression (although combos including these classes for other purposes may be competitive).

Below is a 15 level outline of a trip Vital Strike AoO damage focused build which prioritizes the warder side. It's able to deal massive amounts of AoO damage (typically at least 170 points on average) thanks to the damage die increases granted by Improved Vital Strike with Seize the Opportunity, metamorphosis size increases, Mighty Frame and Primal Warrior Stance. The 19 psion powers also give superior senses, defenses and plenty of utility, not to mention the ability to divine what challenges awaits and then to adapt by doing an almost complete rebuild of up to all 15 levels via the amazing psychic reformation.

Awakened Trip-Killer Sentinel - 15th Level Build Outline
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Warder (Zweihander Sentinel) 4/Psion (egoist) 1/Awakened Blade 10
CG Large outsider (native, orc, psionic)

Class Progression, Notable Features / Feats and Powers
1 Warder 1 Defensive focus, aegis +1 (10 ft.) / Combat Reflexes^B, Fiendish Heritage (+2 Int)
2 Psion 1 Egoist discipline / Psionic Body^B; defensive and offensive precognition, minor metamorphosis
3 Warder 2 Armiger’s mark / Swift Shapeshifter
4 Warder 3 Dirty Fighting^B
5 Warder 4 Tactical acumen / Psionic Meditation
6 Awakened Blade 1 Situational awareness / Deep Focus^B
7 Awakened Blade 2 Stance of the inner eye / Improved Metamorphosis; telempathic projection, vigor
8 Awakened Blade 3 Uncanny dodge / animal affinity, share pain
9 Awakened Blade 4 Additional Traits (Mixed Blood (orc), Reactionary), Vital Strike^B; control sound, heartbinding
10 Awakened Blade 5 Precognitive defense / metamorphosis, banshee’s hearing
11 Awakened Blade 6 Hypercognitive focus / Improved Vital Strike
12 Awakened Blade 7 Clairsentient counter / fettering the shade, spiritual resting place
13 Awakened Blade 8 Mighty Frame, Power Attack; psychic reformation, fold space
14 Awakened Blade 9 Improved uncanny dodge / augured answer, energy adaptation
15 Awakened Blade 10 Pretercognitive mind / Martial Charge; pierce the veils, psionic revivify
Item training gauntlets: Greater Trip, Seize the Opportunity
Item cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder: Weapon Focus (guisarme)
Power metamorphosis: Improved Trip
Martial Tradition Reverents of the Lance: Haft Strike

Stances and Readied Maneuvers Intelligence, IL 15, 12 known
Stances Chronal Fission^RH5, Primal Warrior Stance^PF3, Unbroken Stride^SG1, Vigilant Keeper’s Stance^EG1
Boosts Lightning Step^PF5, Blade of Fury^PF6
Counters Beat the Clock^RH7, Relativity Burst^RH5, Time Skitter^RH3
Strikes Hammer of the Immortal^EG8, Primal Frenzy^PF7

Psion Manifestation Intelligence, ML 11, 19 powers known, 144 PP/day, concentration +17

Ability Scores oni-spawn tiefling, 20-point buy
Str 30 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 6 enhancement (belt), 4 size (metamorphosis)
Dex 10 10 base, 4 enhancement (metamorphosis), -4 size (metamorphosis)
Con 18 14 base, 4 enhancement (animal affinity)
Int 22 15 base, 2 race (Fiendish Heritage), 1 level, 4 enhancement (headband)
Wis 16 12 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement (headband)
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race

Alternate Racial Traits Fiendish Sprinter, Maw, Prehensile Tail
Traits Mixed Blood (orc), Practiced Initiator (warder), Psionic Knack (psion), Reactionary

Noteworthy Offense Values (including Power Attack and Primal Warrior Stance, assuming +4 enhancement from psychic weapon)
Initiative +14 (6 int (tactical acumen), 2 trait (Reactionary), 5 insight (situational awareness), 1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))
Melee psycho-trip guisarme +28/+28/+23/+18 (12d6+37/x3, +2d6 precision)
AoO 7/round: +28 (36d6+37/x3, +2d6 precision); Trip CMB +53 (as if Colossal)

Suggested Gear (included in above numbers, 171,809 gp total market price) psycho-trip guisarme (+1 dueling fortuitous psychic deep crystal "wingtrip guisarme" (= Dragoncatch Guisarme w/o bane)), +1 training (Greater Trip) gauntlet, +1 training (Seize the Opportunity) gauntlet, +6 str belt, +4 int/+2 wis headband, cracked pale green prism, power stones of incarnate and ubiquitous vision (1 charge of each used), cognizance crystal (9 PP), cracked dusty rose prism, cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder

Improvement suggestions/comments/questions are most welcome, as always!

[Nyaa]

Is that level progression better than psion 4 / warder 1? For 1 more lost BAB you get higher ML, to pick starting maneuvers from level 2+ ones, and 8th level transmogrifist discipline ability with student's robes (UPsi 424).
Edit: oh wait, warder 4 is a breakpoint too. Might as well be two separate builds then.

[upho]

Is that level progression better than psion 4 / warder 1? For 1 more lost BAB you get higher ML, to pick starting maneuvers from level 2+ ones, and 8th level transmogrifist discipline ability with student's robes (UPsi 424).
Edit: oh wait, warder 4 is a breakpoint too. Might as well be two separate builds then.

Yeah, warder 4 is a natural break point. And I felt that while a more psion-leaning transmogrifist 4/warder 1 build would undoubtedly be even stronger overall, a build for a warder guide should prioritize the warder side.

It's too bad the harbinger's insight bonuses clashes with the AB's Stance of the Inner Eye, otherwise that also would've made for an interesting psion/AB combo.

As a side note, I can see quite a few other warder/psion/AB class combos that may be even stronger for certain specific combat purposes. For example a warlord (privateer) 1/psion 2/warder (zweihander sentinel) 2/AB 10 can make for a great dirty trick and demoralization focused defender build, despite its rather odd and counter-intuitive class dips and progression. And if you wanna focus even more on pure combat prowess, you can simply replace one of the warder levels with a level of monk of the silver fist, and the zweihander sentinel archetype with the fiendbound marauder, giving you a quite perfect chassis for setting up combos generating tons of free demoralization attempts, bull rushes and dirty trick AoOs, allowing each single attack you make (as part of full attack, strike, AoO, whatever) to easily take an enemy out of the fight.

[upho]

I think the ability score descriptions and priority recommendations in some of the guides are confusing, and I'd really appreciate if someone could explain the reasoning to me. I'm going to use the warder as an example here, but the same thing can be said about some of the other guides as well.

"STRENGTH****: This is probably going to be your go to stat for damage, allowing you to hit your enemies and hit them hard."
The damage is highly secondary IMO. The important part is hitting, since a warder who can't hit isn't getting much use out of his other class features. If you want a reasonable (75%) chance to hit a CR=level enemy with your highest bab attack using Power Attack or with iteratives, Str must have the highest priority. And yes, I really mean must. And even if you don't intend to use Power Attack or full attacks, your Str most likely still has to have a shared top priority. The same goes for Dex if that's your attack stat. And IME Str is typically even more important if you're highly focused on melee control/debuff and don't really give a crap about dealing damage. So why does this description focus on dealing damage, and why isn't Str valued higher?

"CONSTITUTION*****: While you have the benefit of a D12 hit die, you're also going to be on the front lines and should expect to get smacked upside the head on a regular basis. So the more HP you have, the better you are at your Job."
Con is surely important for a warder. But is it more important than hitting your enemies? I think not.

"INTELLIGENCE*****: This gives you nearly everything you need. You'll be using it for your maneuvers, your Initiative, your Reflex Saves, your bonus skill points and the number of Attacks of Opportunity you get. This is nearly as much of a god stat for you as it is for a Wizard."
You're not even remotely close to as SAD as a wizard, and Int isn't nearly as much of a god stat for you. Most importantly, you're not a harbinger, and Int does very little to help you hit. While having a high number of AoOs/round and Armiger's Marks/day, high maneuver save DCs etc is nice, these benefits are also completely worthless unless you can hit your opponents. And while the passive benefits, especially increased Initiative and more skill points, are surely great, they cannot compensate for poor accuracy.

"A proper stat spread should probably prioritize something like this:
INT>CON>STR>WIS>DEX>CHA"
I'd suggest STR>INT>CON>WIS>DEX>CHA. The equivalent is what is recommended for warlords and stalkers. Which begs the question: what's so different about warders that I'm missing? I'd be grateful if someone could explain this for me.

I've never seen a warder build treating Int as a god stat and having it's attack stat as the third highest ability score, and I'm having a really hard time seeing how this could be called optimized.

[Wartex1]

I have a question regarding Martial Traditions and multiclassing.

If you level two initiator classes (such as a Warlord and a Landsknecht), do you have to select a discipline that both share to exchange for the tradition discipline, or can you choose one from each class?

[exelsisxax]

I have a question regarding Martial Traditions and multiclassing.

If you level two initiator classes (such as a Warlord and a Landsknecht), do you have to select a discipline that both share to exchange for the tradition discipline, or can you choose one from each class?

You exchange one discipline from one class.

[Wartex1]

You exchange one discipline from one class.

Huh, that's really disappointing. That's gonna make multiclassing while trying to use certain disciplines (Black Seraph and Unquiet Grave, for one) a huge pain.

[Nyaa]

Huh, that's really disappointing. That's gonna make multiclassing while trying to use certain disciplines (Black Seraph and Unquiet Grave, for one) a huge pain.

How?

Maneuvers: At every even level, a landsknecht gains
a new maneuver known. His available disciplines for
these maneuvers are Mithral Current, Scarlet Throne,
and two of his previously available disciplines, chosen
when he takes his first landsknecht level.

[Wartex1]

Except I'm not planning on using Landsknecht. I wanted to go with a Mage Hunter, but they have preset disciplines.

Though I could just ask my DM if I could swap stuff from that list as well, and if that doesn't fly, then I could just take some feats to learn new ones.

[Zulwarn]

Except I'm not planning on using Landsknecht. I wanted to go with a Mage Hunter, but they have preset disciplines.

Though I could just ask my DM if I could swap stuff from that list as well, and if that doesn't fly, then I could just take some feats to learn new ones.

Well the Martial Traditions and the Unorthodox Method trait doesn't say that the class has to be from a non Prestige Class, so here is how you can gain access to Black Seraph and Unquiet Grave, start out as a Brutal Slayer Stalker right there you gain access to Black Seraph then just chose another Discipline to trade for Unquiet Grave since Lords of the Night says they can trade access for free if you're a few certain classes so boom you got both of your desired Disciplines to your basic class.

Next advance in levels until you can take a level in Mage Hunter at that time join either the Black Thorn Knights or the Scales of Mourning to trade out one of Mage Hunters Discipline and picked up the Additional Traits feat to pick up Unorthodox Method for the one you didn't get from the tradition.

Hope this helps.

[Wartex1]

The whole thing with all the disciplines was to recreate a character concept which I'm doing in all three Dark Souls games (playing through the first two without any loot guides or anything again to build up to playing the Ringed City in the third game, using the same character concept across all three).

I was going to go with a Zweihander Sentinel Warder with Unquiet Grave from Unorthodox Training, Cursed Razor from it's Martial Tradition (if you leave, you still get to keep Cursed Razor unlike certain other Traditions), and then Black Seraph from Black Thorn Knights. After hitting 6th level or so, I was going to start leveling up Mage Hunter, trading some of those disciplines for the previously mentioned three because I thought that would make sense.

I could get around some of that, however, by going with Ordained Champion (which grants Black Seraph innately) instead of Zweihander Sentinel, joining the traditions after becoming a Mage Hunter. However, that really de-emphasizes the Bardiche specialization I was also planning.

[Nyaa]

You can get around all of that by asking your GM nicely.
BTW ordained defender seems to stack with zweihander sentinel.

[Wartex1]

They don't. It's really annoying. They both alter maneuvers even though the alterations wouldn't conflict.

[Swaoeaeieu]

They don't. It's really annoying. They both alter maneuvers even though the alterations wouldn't conflict.

so they do stack then?

[exelsisxax]

the stacking is debatable due to the weirdness of how POW:E gave out new disciplines for pre-existing classes and archetypes. Ordained defender is, technically, barred from recieving "new discipline" entries - they are not permitted to gain eternal guardian or piercing thunder. Since they don't get it (despite not being listed as giving it up) it can't be doubled up with ZHS.

[Wartex1]

Every source I've found has had them listing as not stacking.

I'll probably just go with asking my DM since it's the easiest option and the swapping is pretty reasonable.

[digiman619]

I found a neat little trick: Be a War Soul Soulknife and trade one of your available disciplines for Fool's Errand. Fool's Errand treats all weapons as discipline weapons. At second level, take the Discipline Weapon Shapes blade skill. You can now form your mind blade into any discipline weapon, Now you can form your mindblade as any statted weapon. Heck, you can whip out the Technology Guide and get some of the Heavy Weapons.

[Nyaa]

I found a neat little trick: Be a War Soul Soulknife and trade one of your available disciplines for Fool's Errand. Fool's Errand treats all weapons as discipline weapons. At second level, take the Discipline Weapon Shapes blade skill. You can now form your mind blade into any discipline weapon, Now you can form your mindblade as any statted weapon. Heck, you can whip out the Technology Guide and get some of the Heavy Weapons.

Weapon Group Adaptation feat does that since pow1.

[Starwaith4]

Does anyone know when the Zealot guide was written?

Half the convictions are missing from the PoW:E pdf and the only place that comes up is the beta document when I do a search for them. Seems odd to write a handbook/guide for something not even finalized for publication.

[Castilonium]

Does anyone know when the Zealot guide was written?

Half the convictions are missing from the PoW:E pdf and the only place that comes up is the beta document when I do a search for them. Seems odd to write a handbook/guide for something not even finalized for publication.

Take a look at the guide in my signature for an up-to-date Zealot guide

[Da Beast]

Can we get Sayt's guide to tempest gale added into the general maneuver guide? Or at least add a link to the front page? It's currently kind of hard to find.

So, I've put together a guide for Tempest Gale, you can comment in thread or in the document.