OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

*Looks at ten-foot-pole.*
Nope, still too short to touch this with it.

That's for the best. The proper venue to ponder these questions is high on someone's floor at 1 am.

[Roland Itiative]

I just loved how this comic nailed the "gods are forced into being what they are by the belief of mortals" thing, and how that relates to the title just as much as Thor's final line. They may be all-powerful and the makers of the world, but the mortals also control them.

[linkhyrule5]

Poor Durkon. His responsibility is even bigger than he knows:

• Save the world
• save the universe potentially forever
• save Hell
• save Thor from Loki's retaliation and the potential Divine Vendetta that rises from it.

All on the shoulders of a stick figure.

PS: I admire the narrative contructions that have made this 'Role Reversal' possible. Internally consistent and believable.

Actually, I think he does know? Or like, I read that last bit as a hint that Thor intentionally let Durkon hear his conversation with Loki, for the same reason he 'accidentally let slip that Xykon has an Astral fortress.

[Garwain]

Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.

In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past. It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

Except we know the answer to the god and the goblin. The goblin predated the divine life of the Dark One by the lifespan of one goblin. And beyond that, the Dark One as we know it is a divine form of a purple goblin of the Eastern Continent. At some point, an almost-god goblin ascended with what we would consider a bunch of devoted worshippers.

Edited to correct some factual errors that degraded my attempt to be funny.

[Crusher]

On the bright side, I think Durkon's chance of remaining a statue is around zero.

[Schroeswald]

*golf clap*

_{(We'll set aside the scene where Thor is holding a beer and has his arm around a goddess since reproduction need not have been the motive there)}

He did knock up Freya.

[Schroeswald]

Except we know the answer to the god and the goblin. The goblin predated the divine life of the Dark One by the lifespan of one goblin. And beyond that, the Dark One as we know it is a divine form of a green goblin of the Western Continent. At some point, an almost-god goblin ascended with what we would consider a bunch of devoted worshippers.

TDO was a purple goblin.

[Fyraltari]

Except we know the answer to the god and the goblin. The goblin predated the divine life of the Dark One by the lifespan of one goblin. And beyond that, the Dark One as we know it is a divine form of a green goblin of the Western Continent. At some point, an almost-god goblin ascended with what we would consider a bunch of devoted worshippers.

The Dark One was born with purple skin according to his high priest. And why the Western Continent? There seems to be zero goblin presence over there (at least none that we’ve seen).

[Tvtyrant]

One thing this strip makes me think about is the possibility of Gods that just never got involved. They would be way weaker then the current gods, but not wanting to lose your identity is a legit reason not to be involved in universe making.

[hroþila]

TDO was a purple goblin.

*TDO is believed to have been a purple goblin, so he is a purple goblin god.

[ruy343]

I just wanted to pop in to say that Thor's quote in the last panel...

*sigh* Well Durkon... now we're even, I guess.

Now it's time for me to put my faith in you.

That quote gave me chills. Superb! Bravo!

[Fyraltari]

One thing this strip makes me think about is the possibility of Gods that just never got involved. They would be way weaker then the current gods, but not wanting to lose your identity is a legit reason not to be involved in universe making.

They would have starved to death from lack of divine food a looooong time ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

He did knock up Freya.

Arrgh, I am having trouble findind that particular strip.

[PirateMonk]

Wait, how did Loki not see Hel's plan coming? They blow up the world and claim the souls every time the Snarl doesn't get to them first, so it should be obvious that letting Hel claim a disproportionate share of souls would give her a big boost, especially to someone with divine mental capacity. And it doesn't even necessarily require Hel's involvement: if the Dark One were yellow, red, or blue, Loki would have voted to destroy the world himself without Hel lifting a finger. Did he not expect the dwarf population to get so large? Did he not bother to do the comparison of their population to 1/17th of the rest of the Northern population?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, how did Loki not see Hel's plan coming?

He also didn't know that Thor would successfully create the dwarven devoted-to-duty race.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

Arrgh, I am having trouble findind that particular strip.

I forget how late it was, I thought it was in the Dungeon and I found it at Kazumi and Daigo’s wedding.

[Fyraltari]

Wait a minute, Hel doesn’t know Loki’s motivation because he can’t tell her and she wouldn’t trust Thor. Are these two the only Northern Gods trying to make peace with the Dark One? Out of 18? This is worse than I thought...

Wait, how did Loki not see Hel's plan coming?

Because he wanted to see what would happen. He did it purely for the lulz. Trying to guess what she would do would spoil his fun.

[The Pilgrim]

One thing this strip makes me think about is the possibility of Gods that just never got involved. They would be way weaker then the current gods, but not wanting to lose your identity is a legit reason not to be involved in universe making.

This may be another reason why Clerics are important to Gods. Trough the Clerics, the Gods can shape the way Mortals believe them to be, and thus keep their identity.

Not being involved would be, in fact, the worst course of action. Because that means you are letting the clerics of the other Gods to influence how mortals believe you are.

Which, if you think about it, may be one more problem Hel is facing in this world's tenure. She has no clerics to tell people how great she is, there are only clerics telling people she is a lame lazy godess that doesn't even care about granting spells.

[Stabbey]

This is a misunderstanding of what Loki is saying.

He's not saying he can't say something because his followers would find out and be upset. He's saying that he is physically constructed from the beliefs of his followers (and the broader public), and thus because his followers believe he is incapable of honesty, he actually is incapable of honesty (except to Thor). Everything is made up of ideas, even him.

As far as Loki saying just six strips ago that he can do whatever he wants: he is incapable of honesty (except to Thor).

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

EDIT: And also if Loki is literally incapable of telling the truth, I am unclear about how Hilgaya's prayer to learn Durkon's location was answered.

EDIT 2: Wait, "honesty" and "lies" - those might not be the same thing. ...If by "incapable of honesty", do you mean "is technically capable of telling the truth, but only in a way which furthers dishonesty"?

[renovator]

So if everyone knows he always lies ,... doesn't tha means , but ...he
So we now know why there aren't many Loki clerics around - you need 18 + intelligence to work out his logic

[Hekko]

There are 10,000,000+ Dwarves (according to Hel), and Dwarves are usually a relatively minor race. Half a billion is probably too many for the Northern Pantheon, because it would screw up Hel's plan*, but it is not unreasonable for the world as a whole.




*The value of (Nondwarven Northern souls/11 non-Hel gods) must be significantly less that 10 million for getting every last Dwarf to be enough for her to take over. This would cap the North at >100 million. However, what we've seen suggests that the North is less heavily populated than the other two deitic regions.

I was thinking Loki might count also an unknown number of dead believers whose Belief he hasn't fully digested yet (so it still shapes him).

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

EDIT: And also if Loki is literally incapable of telling the truth, I am unclear about how Hilgaya's prayer to learn Durkon's location was answered.

Telling the truth and being honest are not the same thing. I think Loki is capable of saying the truth when it furthers his scheme; he can mix in truth with lies to deliver the dishonest message.

[Fyraltari]

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

He is unable to be honest. Not unable to tell the truth. That means he can’t be sincere about his motives or his feelings, but he won’t pop like a balloon if he said the sky was blue.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The problem with a Trickster is that they can lie in many different forms, which means you need to guess right. Sometimes, even stating the truth can be a lie, depending on phrasing and intonation (the five of us never left these cells, and your locks are defective).

[Grey Watcher]

What's the black sphere though?

The outside wall/boundary/whatever of Hel's personal domain, I presume.

Also, Loki's motivations for The Bet are the worst of the various theroies I'd entertained: just for the lulz, no attempt to teach Hel a lesson (however ugly the means chosen), no long term plan to keep a dangerous loose-cannon in check. Just classic "Loki's an ass for no real reason." (Not a criticism of the writing, just an observation of the character.)

[Fyraltari]

The problem with a Trickster is that they can lie in many different forms, which means you need to guess right. Sometimes, even stating the truth can be a lie, depending on phrasing and intonation (the five of us never left these cells, and your locks are defective).

Fun fact: ‘‘I never said she took my money’’ has seven different meanings depending on which word you stress.

[The Giant]

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

In other words: Loki can tell the truth to deceive someone, but he wouldn't be wanting to deceive Hel in this instance—so he can't tell the truth. It also means that he couldn't find some way to lie for the purposes of genuinely enlightening her. His intent matters more than the truth value of the words coming out of his mouth.

He is unable to be honest. Not unable to tell the truth. That means he can’t be sincere about his motives or his feelings, but he won’t pop like a balloon if he said the sky was blue.

This, exactly.

[Tvtyrant]

This may be another reason why Clerics are important to Gods. Trough the Clerics, the Gods can shape the way Mortals believe them to be, and thus keep their identity.

Not being involved would be, in fact, the worst course of action. Because that means you are letting the clerics of the other Gods to influence how mortals believe you are.

Which, if you think about it, may be one more problem Hel is facing in this world's tenure. She has no clerics to tell people how great she is, there are only clerics telling people she is a lame lazy godess that doesn't even care about granting spells.

Clerics are elaborate Public Relations advisors. It all makes sense now :)

[Psychronia]

Welp. There goes any sliver of hope that Loki had a remotely passable reason for this whole bet. Chances were slim to begin with since it's Loki, but since he's been portrayed as quite reasonable up until now, I was hoping he'd have a proper endgame.

It's officially "For the lulz, oh wait, a new quiddity, you say?"

I want to say that threatening Thor over what is essentially his own fault is unreasonable, but I guess that's why he has followers like Hilgya.

I do find it fascinating that Loki is actually incapable of telling the truth though. In a way, he's just as psychologically crippled as Odin. I'm reminded of Haley during her breakdown, and a little of Ian.
You are what you eat indeed...

[Stabbey]

"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

In other words: Loki can tell the truth to deceive someone, but he wouldn't be wanting to deceive Hel in this instance—so he can't tell the truth. His intent matters more than the truth value of the words coming out of his mouth.



This, exactly.

Okay, got it, thanks.

[Alaska Fan]

Access to Hel's domain.

I like how Loki can only tell the truth to Thor because he's rubbing Thor's face in being wrong. Just like how Odin's still not quite right from his time of northerners not believing in magic, Loki is sort-of controlled by the beliefs of his followers.

It looks very much like the idea globe "Nothing Matters," which is pretty appropriate for Hel's domain.