Overwatch: Thread of the Game

[The_Jackal]

I like the Hanzo rework, but I miss the days when sometimes I'd get into a Quick Play match where there were no one-hit-kill headshot heroes on the enemy team.

Honestly, I don't mind getting headshot by Hanzo or Widow, because I know they had to use some modicum of skill to actually land the shot (or just get dumb lucky). It's far, far, FAR more frustrating to get chipped down by the dumpster-tier spambot Heroes like Moira, Symmetra, Junkrat or Brig.

[gomipile]

Honestly, I don't mind getting headshot by Hanzo or Widow, because I know they had to use some modicum of skill to actually land the shot (or just get dumb lucky). It's far, far, FAR more frustrating to get chipped down by the dumpster-tier spambot Heroes like Moira, Symmetra, Junkrat or Brig.

I don't mind individual headshots, but I do mind having to watch out for being headshot in every single match.

I understand and accept the amount of paranoia I need to have to increase my character's effectiveness when there is an enemy sniper, but having to maintain that all the time is making me feel fatigued. Because of this, I have spent more time in Vs. AI lately than in QP and comp combined. Before this update, I had maybe an hour or two of total time in Vs. AI, ever.

[The_Jackal]

I don't mind individual headshots, but I do mind having to watch out for being headshot in every single match.

I understand and accept the amount of paranoia I need to have to increase my character's effectiveness when there is an enemy sniper, but having to maintain that all the time is making me feel fatigued. Because of this, I have spent more time in Vs. AI lately than in QP and comp combined. Before this update, I had maybe an hour or two of total time in Vs. AI, ever.

You just want to watch your movement and angles as you proceed through the map. The usual stuff: Don't move in a straight line, don't stay too long out of cover, stay with your tanks, etc. The median scoped accuracy of a Widowmaker is 44%, with a 16.4% crit rate. That means, on any given shot, she's got a 7% chance to headshot a target, and that includes targets with massive head hitboxes like Roadhog. Hanzo's accuracy is far worse. For a smaller Hero, it's even harder. Remember that the way you experience being shot by Widow or Hanzo is highly susceptible to loss aversion bias, namely you distinctly remember all the times they hit that 7% bullseye, and forget all the times her shots whang past your ear to no effect. At 44% base accuracy, even nailing 2 body shots back to back is an 18% chance, or thereabouts.

My point isn't that you should ignore snipers, but they're far less threatening than they can seem.

[Rynjin]

The niggling issue in the back of peoples' heads about snipers is due to the problem (if you want to call it that) that there is no direct counterplay to a sniper save another sniper. Your death or survival lies in the hands of the sniper since assuming perfect play on both sides the sniper always wins.

Surviving an encounter with a sniper 100% relies on the sniper making a mistake. In practice this isn't an issue, since everybody makes mistakes, but a particularly good sniper on the opposing team when your team doesn't have an equally skilled counter can be very frustrating since the deaths do not usually feel like they were your fault, and survival doesn't feel like a real triumph either.

Overwatch is actually pretty well situated in mitigating the effects of snipers though due to the fact that particularly long sightlines are relatively rare and barriers are such a common effect, but that little voice in the back of your head screaming "Snipers are so CHEAP, UGH!" is still going to chime in when the cards align.

[The_Jackal]

The niggling issue in the back of peoples' heads about snipers is due to the problem (if you want to call it that) that there is no direct counterplay to a sniper save another sniper. Your death or survival lies in the hands of the sniper since assuming perfect play on both sides the sniper always wins.

Absolutely not. The counter-play to a sniper is cover and barriers.

Surviving an encounter with a sniper 100% relies on the sniper making a mistake. In practice this isn't an issue, since everybody makes mistakes, but a particularly good sniper on the opposing team when your team doesn't have an equally skilled counter can be very frustrating since the deaths do not usually feel like they were your fault, and survival doesn't feel like a real triumph either.

The average Widowmaker has a one in fourteen chance of one-shotting a non-tank, and a one in five and a half chance of two shotting the same, and that's discounting all the ways you can prevent them from getting a shot at you at all. Sniping is incredibly difficult in this game. Any half-moronic team composition will have at least one barrier tank, and therefore you'll often be stuck plinking at barriers or vainly hoping your opponents peek from behind them.

If you're getting sniped down in this game, the counters are positioning, mobility, or barriers. The reason those methods aren't effective is because your average player plat and below will quite happily waddle into open view, get blown to bits, and then respawn and do the same thing 10 seconds later. I've put in quite a bit of time on my snipers, and I flatter myself that I'm not too bad (based on my accuracy & E:D ratio, quick play stats for stuff like eliminations, medals, etc., are all garbage because they don't count record losses). But snipers find it really hard to bring pressure. Without a teammate to force the enemy team to engage on the objective, and to hook over to in the event that I get jumped, it doesn't matter how many kills I grab if the objective isn't being captured.

Seriously, if you're being regularly headshot by Widow, your problem is that your movement is predictable. That's easily rectified if you practice. Button mashing your A, D, and crouch buttons is enough to turn every Widow shot into a lottery. Don't jump. Jumping makes you very predictable, unless you're a Hero who's got lots of lateral air control, like Pharah, Genji, or Lucio.

Overwatch is actually pretty well situated in mitigating the effects of snipers though due to the fact that particularly long sightlines are relatively rare and barriers are such a common effect, but that little voice in the back of your head screaming "Snipers are so CHEAP, UGH!" is still going to chime in when the cards align.

This is the thing. If you never play Widowmaker, you only get to see the moments when the stars align. Even up in Diamond, which the top 14th percentile, Widow is in the bottom third of Heroes by win rate. At that tier, she's only getting picked on sections which have a very advantageous geometry, like Hollywood or Junkertown, because her pick rate is also on the low end. By any reasonable measure, Zenyatta makes for a better long-ranged area denial Hero than Widowmaker. He's chalk up as much Hero damage, nearly as many eliminations, with as many offensive assists, courtesy of Discord orb, while chalking up an average of 6K healing for his team.

That's because, at the end of the day, the only stat that really matters is W's and L's, and Zen is way better at delivering those than Widow, at every rank of play.

[Keltest]

Absolutely not. The counter-play to a sniper is cover and barriers.



The average Widowmaker has a one in fourteen chance of one-shotting a non-tank, and a one in five and a half chance of two shotting the same, and that's discounting all the ways you can prevent them from getting a shot at you at all. Sniping is incredibly difficult in this game. Any half-moronic team composition will have at least one barrier tank, and therefore you'll often be stuck plinking at barriers or vainly hoping your opponents peek from behind them.

If you're getting sniped down in this game, the counters are positioning, mobility, or barriers. The reason those methods aren't effective is because your average player plat and below will quite happily waddle into open view, get blown to bits, and then respawn and do the same thing 10 seconds later. I've put in quite a bit of time on my snipers, and I flatter myself that I'm not too bad (based on my accuracy & E:D ratio, quick play stats for stuff like eliminations, medals, etc., are all garbage because they don't count record losses). But snipers find it really hard to bring pressure. Without a teammate to force the enemy team to engage on the objective, and to hook over to in the event that I get jumped, it doesn't matter how many kills I grab if the objective isn't being captured.

Seriously, if you're being regularly headshot by Widow, your problem is that your movement is predictable. That's easily rectified if you practice. Button mashing your A, D, and crouch buttons is enough to turn every Widow shot into a lottery. Don't jump. Jumping makes you very predictable, unless you're a Hero who's got lots of lateral air control, like Pharah, Genji, or Lucio.



This is the thing. If you never play Widowmaker, you only get to see the moments when the stars align. Even up in Diamond, which the top 14th percentile, Widow is in the bottom third of Heroes by win rate. At that tier, she's only getting picked on sections which have a very advantageous geometry, like Hollywood or Junkertown, because her pick rate is also on the low end. By any reasonable measure, Zenyatta makes for a better long-ranged area denial Hero than Widowmaker. He's chalk up as much Hero damage, nearly as many eliminations, with as many offensive assists, courtesy of Discord orb, while chalking up an average of 6K healing for his team.

That's because, at the end of the day, the only stat that really matters is W's and L's, and Zen is way better at delivering those than Widow, at every rank of play.

While I don't disagree with any of your points, I think its important to remember that unless youre a counter sniper or somebody like Winston who has the mobility to reach them in the back, your only interaction with that sniper will be when they kill you or an ally. Neither widow or hanzo have any other particular talent to bring to their team the way, say, Zen does, and theres almost no reason for them to be up where non-snipers can reliably be taking shots at them. The only time most people will even notice them is when they get kills. Its not just that people aren't remembering all the bad widows, its that they literally aren't aware of them.

[The_Jackal]

While I don't disagree with any of your points, I think its important to remember that unless youre a counter sniper or somebody like Winston who has the mobility to reach them in the back, your only interaction with that sniper will be when they kill you or an ally. Neither widow or hanzo have any other particular talent to bring to their team the way, say, Zen does, and theres almost no reason for them to be up where non-snipers can reliably be taking shots at them. The only time most people will even notice them is when they get kills. Its not just that people aren't remembering all the bad widows, its that they literally aren't aware of them.

Well, here's the thing: There IS value to having a big burst and good range. The trade off for inconsistency is shock power. It's way, way more dangerous to eat a shot that drops you to ~80 health than one that drops you to ~125 health. That's why both Widow and Hanzo enjoy higher pick and win rates than McCree in GM games (plus both are much, much more mobile).

The tough thing about playing a good Widow is NOT aim. Sure, you need some aim, but even with great aim, if you have bad positioning, you're going to get dumpstered. The same is true on the other side. When a Widow is getting the better of your team, it's because she's positioned well, and her team is projecting into her line of fire to take advantage of her firepower.

Hanzo isn't quite the same. He's really barely a sniper, he's more of a medium-range brawler who can spam barriers from further out. But he really can't reliably land anything outside of, say, 20 meters, unless his target is being very, VERY predictable (and he's got flawless prediction/aim). A strong Hanzo will set up shop not too far from his healers, behind his tanks, and use his vertical mobility to sneak up to a high vantage point to rain fire down on the enemy team, peeking and spamming when he's contesting high ground. Take phase 2 of Dorado Streets. The balcony is where the defending team will set up. Hanzo can climb to the ledge by the balcony, and peek and spam while the defending team is raining fire on the cart. But that really won't work very well against an organized team unless he's got a bully mobile Hero to distract his targets and finish off kills. Genji, D.va, Winston or Pharah can all do work here.

My point here is that barring being completely uncoordinated, with no mechanical skills to speak of, where you stand is way, way, way more important than where you stick your aimpoint, and this is why composition is so important in this game. Your entire team needs to be able to contribute to the fight at the same time, engage clean, get that first pick, then frag out. If you're off jogging around a flank because you're on McCree while the rest of your team is going dive, you're not going to contribute.

[gomipile]

I understand how to play around snipers. It's just that having to do so every match makes QP and competitive significantly less fun for me than when I didn't have to do that every single match.

[Velaryon]

I understand how to play around snipers. It's just that having to do so every match makes QP and competitive significantly less fun for me than when I didn't have to do that every single match.

In QP you're lucky if you've got ONLY one sniper on each team, sadly.

[gomipile]

In QP you're lucky if you've got ONLY one sniper on each team, sadly.

Indeed. But before, there were relatively common times when at least one team didn't.

[Velaryon]

Indeed. But before, there were relatively common times when at least one team didn't.

When was that? I certainly can't remember a time like that, at least not on console.

[gomipile]

When was that? I certainly can't remember a time like that, at least not on console.

Well, I started playing during Uprising in 2017. So, at least from then until the Hanzo rework patch. I'd say at least a fifth of my matches during that time had no sniper on the other team.

Also during that time, it was often possible to switch to Sombra or Winston and bully the energy team's (single) sniper into switching to a different role. It seems nearly impossible to bully an enemy quick play team into having zero snipers these days. Which is partly because Winston doesn't feel like an equal-skill counter to Hanzo anymore. He's not even as good vs. Widowmaker as he used to be since they shortened her grapple cooldown.


To be clear, I do not begrudge Widowmaker or Hanzo their recent buffs. I'm actually against the recently announced nerf to Hanzo's Storm Arrows damage. I think they are both in a great place right now with how they feel to play.

I think the best thing right now would be to tweak Hanzo and Widowmaker's counters rather than mess with them directly.

[NeoVid]

Found some leaks of the new event skins. For once, I think they made an Orisa skin so good I can forgive the loss of her facial expressions.

[Rynjin]

I want the Gorenger Genji, Bear Brigitte, and Debonaire Doomfist.

[NeoVid]

Usual pre-event reminder: Don't get your Arcade loot today, wait until tomorrow when it'll get you Anniversary stuff.

[The_Jackal]

I never bother with the arcade junk unless there's a co-op event.

[NeoVid]

Oh man. I haven't even gotten around to playing yet and this already feels like the best event ever. The free loot for logging in gives an automatic legendary, they've brought back Lucioball...

And there's a temporary Competitive FFA Mode.

I never bother with the arcade junk unless there's a co-op event.

Turns out Junkenstein's Revenge is active for the next 24 hours. Grab these insanely generous crates while you can!

[chainer1216]

Huge changes just announced.

Symmetra 3.0 is on the PTR

Offense and Defense classes have been collapsed into a single catagory called "Damage"

You can now commend players for good behavior.

Theres now a LFG function that can optionally function as role select.

And Horizon Lunar Colony has been changed.

[ChaosOS]

Dev update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_pnpZK_oYM&t=0s

PTR Patch notes: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/ov...-5-2018/122466

[Rynjin]

Doomfist buffs are always welcome in my house.

[gomipile]

I tried out the new Symmetra on the PTR. I like some aspects of her kit, but I have some problems with others.

First, her primary fire. They said it would be fatter than Zarya's beam, but it looks thinner, and for some reason I feel like it's the same or harder to hit with. Honestly, it feels like I need pixel-perfect aim with the new Symmetra, and that just feels wrong for her playstyle.

Also, her primary fire doesn't seem to charge as quickly as I'd expect based on the numbers. I never saw my primary fire charge up all the way in a 1v1 on the PTR.

Next, teleporter. I'm a bit disappointed that it has a shorter range than Reaper's Shadow Step, but it's very versatile, so I can forgive that. However, it's duration is really short. Short enough that a friend and I had trouble coordinating some tests in a private custom game while using voice-activated VOIP. I think I'll have trouble coordinating with it using push-to-talk in actual matches. I refuse to use voice-activated chat with Overwatch's voice comms, because too many people have broadcasted their chewing noises, family background noise, music collections, etc. during matches for me to trust it's sensitivity.

I feel like the teleporter should have at least another 2 to 5 seconds added to its duration. The cooldown seems fine, so I think it should just overlap, and if a new one is placed while one is already up, the old one should disappear.

Oh, another teleporter issue is that the cooldown can be wasted if a teleporter can't be placed where you are standing. It only checks the legality of the end you are placing before you click. If you click when standing in a disallowed spot, it places then immediately self-destructs instead of deploying, and uses up the cooldown. If either end will be illegal, it shouldn't let you activate it.

And last, the ultimate. I suppose it could be situationally useful, but the duration seems too short, and I don't like it as Symmetra's ultimate. I think they should just have her ultimate be the old shield generator. If we're stuck with this, though, I think it should just last until destroyed, or at least have its duration increased by 50%-100%.

I like the way her turrets place and work now.

Her secondary fire orb is.... okay. It feels fine to use. It's disappointing that it doesn't go through barriers, but it's relatively useful at long ranges, and it's better at taking out Torbjörn turrets and forcing Bastion to move than before, as long as they aren't behind barriers.


I hope she gets some tweaks and improvements beyond bug fixes before going live. I suppose she'll be alright... /shrug.


Overall, I'm a bit underwhelmed.

[ChaosOS]

Re: Primary fire

(new) Primary fire takes 2 seconds per stage to charge - that's with making contact & doing damage, ergo you need to do (2*60)+(2*120)=360 damage (before armor) to charge up to max. So if you're not farming up on a tank you're not going to hit max charge in any fight, but that's entirely fair because that's a lot of damage. The point of max charge is Symm can farm up to max DPS on a barrier then wreck the enemy team, forcing people to engage on her rather than just hide behind barriers.

[Keltest]

Re: Primary fire

(new) Primary fire takes 2 seconds per stage to charge - that's with making contact & doing damage, ergo you need to do (2*60)+(2*120)=360 damage (before armor) to charge up to max. So if you're not farming up on a tank you're not going to hit max charge in any fight, but that's entirely fair because that's a lot of damage. The point of max charge is Symm can farm up to max DPS on a barrier then wreck the enemy team, forcing people to engage on her rather than just hide behind barriers.

I cant say im fond of the idea of such a harsh anti-barrier DPS. The barrier going down is already going to be a bad thing for your team, does she really need to come in with a really high damage boost from it as well?

[The_Jackal]

Re: Primary fire

(new) Primary fire takes 2 seconds per stage to charge - that's with making contact & doing damage, ergo you need to do (2*60)+(2*120)=360 damage (before armor) to charge up to max. So if you're not farming up on a tank you're not going to hit max charge in any fight, but that's entirely fair because that's a lot of damage. The point of max charge is Symm can farm up to max DPS on a barrier then wreck the enemy team, forcing people to engage on her rather than just hide behind barriers.

It's fine. Symmetra's secondary fire has gotten a lot faster, so it's actually much better for general room spam, and her secondary beam can charge up on tanks and shields, no problem. If you can't aim, I have two pieces of advice: 1) learn or 2) Play someone with a shotgun.

I cant say im fond of the idea of such a harsh anti-barrier DPS. The barrier going down is already going to be a bad thing for your team, does she really need to come in with a really high damage boost from it as well?

She has to get uncomfortably close to do that damage, and she doesn't have the burliness of Zarya to keep her safe. Hanzo can break a Rein shield in 8.04 seconds, from clear across the map. Symmetra, from having no charge, can do it in 8.33 seconds. Sure, once she's charged up, she's doing more damage, but guess what: You can kill her. This has always been the thing about Symmetra: Kill her first, and everyone's happy. Well, everyone but Symmetra.

[Velaryon]

Well I can't try Symmetra 3.0 yet because we console plebs aren't allowed a PTR, but I don't see why she needs a rework in the first place. If her pick rate is too low, then look at some buffs maybe. But another total rework seems unnecessary to me. She's pretty okay how she is.

[gomipile]

So, Hammond is on the PTR as "Wrecking Ball."

His abilities are... interesting. I'm not sure how good of a tank he can be at his current tuning, but it's nice to see a tank who has a sprint with no cooldown. His grapple ability is interesting for mobility. I wasn't able to find a way to consistently go around the left ocean flank on Volskaya A. However, there are consistent techniques to go over the left building on Eichenwalde. And once you get the hang of the mechanic, taking the shortcut over the gap on the left from Hanamura A to B is pretty easy.


I'm still not sure if he's very capable once he gets to an objective via a flanking route, but I suppose they have to make him effective eventually if he isn't yet, right? Right?

[chainer1216]

I dont think hes very powerful or will impact the meta in any way but he sure is fun as hell to play.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

HAMSTERBAAAAAAAAAAAALL

I'm so unbelievably hyped.

[The_Jackal]

HAMSTERBAAAAAAAAAAAALL

I'm so unbelievably hyped.

It looks pretty funny. I'm not one for cutesy stuff, but I'll at least concede that Hammond has personality, as opposed to, say, Orisa, which has about as much charisma as a deck chair. Mechanically, it's pretty interesting. The wrecking ball mechanics have some interesting potential, though they might wind up being a bit too hard to bring off. I really, really like his ultimate, a minefield is a great idea for an ult, and his mobility is going to be immense. Maybe not quite as mobile as Winston, but still pretty strong overall.

Now let's talk about downsides. His hitbox is huge, and his primary fire seems pretty anemic. He's basically Roadhog, minus the hook and burst potential, which is.... a questionable proposition in terms of altering the meta. I think he will, in practice, be an ult battery against the Brig tank comps of the world.

In other news, there has been a long-ranged damage buff for McCree and Soldier! Now their minimum damage is only 50% instead of 30%, which is a pretty sizable buff. It still means McCree needs 6 bodyshots to take down a 200 HP hero, but it's a damned sight better than the 10 it takes today.

[Keltest]

It looks pretty funny. I'm not one for cutesy stuff, but I'll at least concede that Hammond has personality, as opposed to, say, Orisa, which has about as much charisma as a deck chair. Mechanically, it's pretty interesting. The wrecking ball mechanics have some interesting potential, though they might wind up being a bit too hard to bring off. I really, really like his ultimate, a minefield is a great idea for an ult, and his mobility is going to be immense. Maybe not quite as mobile as Winston, but still pretty strong overall.

Now let's talk about downsides. His hitbox is huge, and his primary fire seems pretty anemic. He's basically Roadhog, minus the hook and burst potential, which is.... a questionable proposition in terms of altering the meta. I think he will, in practice, be an ult battery against the Brig tank comps of the world.

In other news, there has been a long-ranged damage buff for McCree and Soldier! Now their minimum damage is only 50% instead of 30%, which is a pretty sizable buff. It still means McCree needs 6 bodyshots to take down a 200 HP hero, but it's a damned sight better than the 10 it takes today.

Unlike Roadhog though, Hammond is significantly more mobile, and has a ranged attack. I think a better comparison would be D.va or Winston.