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2012-03-10, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Murray; 2012-03-10 at 12:29 AM.
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2012-03-10, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
I find this type of statement to be quite irritating, given that the alignment system does not state this in the books, nor have I EVER seen it used that way in a game, either.
While it is true that goblins, evil dragons, etc. are usually shown as evil in the games I have seen, as a kind of default, I have NEVER in either a published or a homebrewed adventure seen the characters encouraged to commit "genocide" or "murder" simply because of an "arbitrary statistic". There is always a justification for their conflict with the creatures in question, even if that justification occupies only a small amount of "screen time" within the adventure -- which is, after all, mostly about people trying to have fun (heaven forbid!) with scenes of action and high peril.
I have ALWAYS seen humanoid opponents such as goblins, bugbears, etc. shown as being attacked by the PCs because they are raiding, killing, eating peasants, or carrying off slaves. There's no larger questioning of whether the humanoids would actually do this, but as depicted, killing them usually falls under the umbrella of "taking down as a hostile combatant who is wearing the finger bones of infants as a necklace and rescuing captives taken for slavery, eating, etc.". Not murder -- basically, war.
Non-humanoid opponents are usually shown as even more monstrous -- much more likely to be using humans and other sapient races as prey animals, slaves, or experimental victims.
I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2012-03-10, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-03-10, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Well yes but for all u know that use to be Goblin land before the humans rolled in and forced them out. Or are the European explorers righteous and the native Americans evil for scapling them when its the european's who came and took territory that does not belong to them.
As for a Dragon, it might simply just view everything as prey so makes no distinction between humans or cattle. Now from the human perspective sure that is evil from the dragon perspective not so much.
Now to say that should not kill the goblins but just because they are killing your people does not inherently make them evil. That is the problem with D&D, it views everything from the human perspective so sure the goblins look evil but they are not necessarily evil.
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2012-03-10, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks for sharing.
That doesn't mean that there aren't games where PC's are played as murderers for the fun of it. When I was a high schooler and we played D&D all the time, we once had an adventure where we were not the ones rescuing the princess, but the ones capturing her and bringing her to our leader, the anti-paladin. We had to come up with reasons to force her to marry him. The only trick that worked was after we burned a village and killed everyone in it and took her on a tour of the carnage. We then took her to her own home village and threatened to do it again. She relented. (We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")
That was a fun campaign because it was a different set of problems we had to solve, and it was fun to play against type. And yes, there was a different kind of visceral thrill when we were stomping all over the village, a la Godzilla.
My Two Cents,
B.H.D.
Post Script: If you are the kind of person who thinks it is necessary for me to state that me and my buddies have all grown up into respectable adults with respectable families of our own in the 28 years since we "committed genocide in a fantasy game," then you probably aren't the kind of person I'd like to hang out with. But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...
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2012-03-10, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?
Thanks,
B.H.D.
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2012-03-10, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
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2012-03-10, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Funniest comic in a while.
"Close. My dad is a paranoid fool who will suffer just to spite someone."
Also,
"It stands to reason he taught his family the same way."
"Lawful types do have a tendency to try to make everyone else think the same way they do"
I guess it's not just lawful types … unless Haley thinks Girard was lawful, which seems unlikely.
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2012-03-10, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2012-03-10, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2012-03-10, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Here's what I don't get:
Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy? There were many different people, some obviously magicians. Why not raise the most important-looking one? The guy in the middle of the death scene with the ponytail looks a lot Girard, it's probably Orrin. But instead, they try to raise the only non-magical Draketooth?
Yeah, sure, he could be multiclass or something. But still, raise a guy in wizardy robes at least.
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2012-03-10, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Yep--it's the last subsection in "Bringing Back The Dead" in the 3.5 Reference Document:
Revivification against One’s Will
A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.
Which, as someone suggested earlier, makes one wonder why knowing that a cleric of Thor was trying to raise them would make a Draketooth that paranoid, given that the Northern Gods and their followers weren't known associates with Soon or his paladins. Other than the "they're just really *that* paranoid" catch-all argument.
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2012-03-10, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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- Land of Fans and Music
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
I'm sure it's just the fact that he's Lawful.
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2012-03-10, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-03-10, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-03-10, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
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2012-03-10, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Why am I here?
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Blathering: I felt the joke was rather weak. Any time any one says any thing, they are trying to make someone think as they do. Moreover, Roy was right: the argument was pointless and V has been gone a few too many panels.
I guess I'm of lawful alignment... 9_9
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2012-03-10, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-03-10, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Given the way Malack effortlessly trounced Nale, who's presumably of the same level as Elan (and thus probably within 1 level in either direction of Durkon), it stands to reason that Malack is of a higher level than Durkon.
Familicide's way overpowered even by Epic standards as it is. That would indeed be too much.
Of course, given that Durkon doesn't know what the cause of death was, he might have tried Raise Dead first. Lower cost in diamonds, after all. On the other hand, Raise Dead has a time limit of one day per caster level after the target's death. Since that was at least 14 days ago, and we think Durkon's level 14 IIRC, it might simply be too late for Raise Dead.
Lirian's Gate was destroyed many years ago.
Maybe, but if that's what Roy was going with it's a fairly weak assumption. We also saw a bald spellcaster and a woman with completely white hair, who are most likely older than the fighter.
Not to mention that, given the continued use of illusions as the primary line of defense for the gate, it seems likely that a spellcaster would be in charge rather than a melee combatant.
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2012-03-10, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Which is an assumption. Malack effortlessly trounced Nale by making good use of two sixth-level spells. Durkon had trouble with Nale and Sabine because he made ineffective use of - and Thor sabotaged his use of - his seventh-level spells. Competence trumped spell level. The fight between Enor and Ganjii on the one hand and Haley, Elan, and Vaarsuvius also reminds us that competence trumps character level.
The evidence suggests that Malack is competent, not that he is of a higher level than Durkon.Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-03-10 at 02:20 AM.
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2012-03-10, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.
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2012-03-10, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
It was deliberate. Tarquin. Tarkin. Same thing? Yeah? Meh.
I also said "Star Wars" to annoy those young whippersnappers who insist on calling it "Episode 4 A New Hope." It is an honest to god real policy in my classroom that if they call Star Wars anything but Star Wars, they lose points on the next quiz or homework.
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2012-03-10, 03:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
I'm not satisfied with this comic, for these reasons. It just feels contrived. I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:
- It's obviously not Soon's men if they're worshipping Thor
- They should do whatever it takes to protect the Gate
- It's only natural to be really curious about what could have happened
But Durkon probably won't try any of the others, or if he does it'll be passed off with "oh, it didn't work for them either". This is honestly the first time I've ever felt this way about OotS, but if it happens the way I've said it will be not just bad in the story but bad writing.
No. He's named after the Roman kings. Check the Giant's Quote Compendium thread for where he says so.
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2012-03-10, 03:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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- Taiwan
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2012-03-10, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Elan is just such a sweet character.
As for the height of the gate condition indicators, I imagine it's just a perspective variance.
This story is so epic! I can't wait (but can!) to find out how it ends.
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2012-03-10, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Boston, MA
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Wow, Durkon actually prepared the right spell. I'm impressed. So, Speak with Dead next?
Is this the first time we've seen Roy or Haley actually pay after one of their bets?
The colors on the pie chart alert system were used to represent the gates before. The whole thing bears semblance to the original revelation of the gates. And it looks very ominous indeed.
It's possible the girl can't be resurrected - on account of her Constitution being too low, for example.Last edited by JCarter426; 2012-03-10 at 03:49 AM.
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2012-03-10, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
: Lawfuls tend to force people to think the same way
, : No we don't. Stop thinking that way.
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2012-03-10, 05:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
It already has, really--though in theory the OotS could salvage things long enough to find a new guardian. Girard's paranoia led to his trusting only his blood relatives as guardians of the gate, which made Familicide a 100% effective method for annihilating them and the magic that hid the gate.*
*--given the habits of dragons regarding breeding with anything with a pulse, Familicide may well have taken out a substantial portion of the guardians of Kraagor's Gate as well--but we won't know until later.
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2012-03-10, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.
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2012-03-10, 06:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper