Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

[Kuulvheysoon]

Two in a row! Thanks, Kuulvheysoon.

Regarding Keeliani Amaruak:

Unless I'm mis-remembering a point where I reversed myself on this - in which case, feel free to point it out - the minimum score (under my tenure) in a category for a legal build is 1.

...Huh. You didn't. For some reason, I always read that as not allowed to score a 0 in any category. Adjusting score(s) now.

[Vaz]

Woohoo, judging! And i'm doing far better than i though? Woohoo!

[Kazyan]

Responses to Nightman:

1. Argument accepted. I'll reconsider your Power score.

2. Understood. However, in the "Class Features" column for the Umbal Disciple levels, you note an increase in essentia at all three levels, with a cumulative total in parenthesis, the final one of which is 5. This might be a holdover from an earlier draft of your build. I'm going to remove the Rules Violation penalty, but increase the Proofreading penalty to -0.5 unless I've misinterpreted your notation. You end up with 0.25 more points.

3. 3 levels of Umbral Disciple is a dip. While it's a clean dip in the context of the build, it's still breaking off from a 10 level PrC 3 levels in. If a progression involves less-then-clean ratios, but it's because the PrCs themselves are short--Warlock 7/Hellfire Warlock 3/Mindbender (or something) 10--I'd aware full points. Completing PrCs makes me happy.

[Thurbane]

I haven't been very active on the forums lately, but this was an SI I often asked for. Can't remember my exact build, but I remember it included 4 or 5 levels of Elemental Warrior.

[Venger]

I haven't been very active on the forums lately, but this was an SI I often asked for. Can't remember my exact build, but I remember it included 4 or 5 levels of Elemental Warrior.

that's a... pretty underwhelming class. air's kind of cool. fly 20 perfect is awesome. which element did you pick? I feel like I'm missing something.

I do like the weapon thing. swing around a +1 maiming scythe and ruin everyone's lives

[sabelo2000]

[Redacted]

Thanks Kuul, I'll do that.

[Kuulvheysoon]

REDACTED

You should PM anything pertaining to the builds directly to the Chairperson if you have anything to settle with the judges.

To preserve anonymity, you know?

[Amphetryon]

More contestant concerns:

Kazyan,

You mention that Flyby Attack can't be gained at the same level as Animal Devotion. However, per the SRD:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
(As an aside, if a DM *does* rule that you must gain Animal Devotion and Flyby Attack at different levels, the build can be pretty easily shuffled to accomodate this - simply swap the cleric and totemist levels. This orders the feats appropriately without significantly altering how the build plays.)

Kuulvheysoon,

Jef Costello was dinged for dips, but per your scoring rubric, you were penalizing for excessive dipping defined as such:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon
*Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class and "excessive" is defined as three or more instances of dipping.
Thanks to both for your judging!

This might or might not change Geula's score, so I'd like to clear them up:
Kazyan:
-you can't steal SLAs
Hellbreaker 2 grants the ability to steal SLAs (if late in the build).

Kuulvheysoon:
-You forgot to add your -2 Charisma penalty in your post-racial stats.
Amphetyron posted the fix after I pmed him. It was the pre-racial stats, not post.
-Master Spellthief does not let you steal an SLA
See above

For Kazyan:

Putting a veil of "some sort of dark creature" over a build that involves shifting and aberrant feats is shaky

Tacgnol is rather explicitly stated to be a Dark Creature as the template in Tome of Magic, no vagueness there. I'll accept the penalty for Knight fluff, but I would like a bit more explanation on why a dark shifter with aberrant feats is shaky. Also, the score in elegance as it is currently should be a 2.75 going off off the penalties and bonuses listed.


For Kuulvheysoon:

You wrote your ability scores (post-racials) incorrectly – Shifters receive a -2 penalty to both Intelligence and Charisma, for final scores of 10 and 6 respectively.

While I did make the typo in copying scores for post-racial adjustments, I did not forget them in the build. I did base all my skill points on a 10 int, and my need for charisma is nil. I understand if you stand by your judgement, but a .25 penalty for a copying error seems a mite harsh.

Did you... save up skill points to dump into UMD at your Rogue level? You are aware that you can’t carry over unused skill points from level to level, right? This isn’t NWN.

I admit I may have miscalculated my Rogue skill points here, but I'll point out that it was my direct intention to put EVERY rogue skill (8+3) into UMD to represent deliberate and focused training on that skill, for the purpose of using a wonderful new toy (found Wand of Glyph of Warding). If I understand correctly, as a Rogue class skill that makes my max ranks 15 at 12th level. Also note that I dropped spare skill points into UMD at previous levels, so at Level 11 it was 4 ranks.

Did I miscalculate here?

[Kazyan]

Jef Costello: True, but that still doesn't qualify you for Flyby Attack, because Animal Devotion does not grant you a fly speed at the time of level-up. The feat gives you the capacity to gain a flight speed for 1 minute per day, but for the rest of it, you do not meet Flyby Attack's prerequisite. As an analogy, consider a build that gains 1/day Enlarge Person as an SLA at 9th level because of a homebrew bloodline or something, and used it as a reason to take War Hulk at level 9--this wouldn't work unless they were enlarged at the moment of leveling up. Swapping totemist and cleric levels doesn't alleviate this; nothing does until you get Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders) or a Cloak of Flying (for example).

Geula Abishag: So it does. +0.25 to Power.

Tacgnol: Simply put, the Dark template's associations don't allow you to gloss over the stong fluffs of shifting and aberrant feats. Well, you can, but not without my harebrained comments. Also, as I stated in my criteria--and I'm going to bold this in case anyone else is confused and is going to write to me about it--I started Elegance scores at 4. It's a lot easier to deduct points than grant them, after all.

[8wGremlin]

Thanks for the judging, some interesting concepts there.

Looks like I need to be more informative in my submissions, but you live and learn.

As for the next SI when was the last time we had some psionics?

And has anyone thought about peer review judging, if you enter you have to judge the other contestants, just a thought

[MidgetMarine]

Aw damnit, missed again.

I had a fun idea for a Telflammar Shadowlord build here. Alas, it shall remain half completed on my desktop.

[123456789blaaa]

Aw damnit, missed again.

I had a fun idea for a Telflammar Shadowlord build here. Alas, it shall remain half completed on my desktop.

Could you give us details? What was the build going to do that another TS build wouldn't?

[MidgetMarine]

I was thinking some interesting combinations between the shadowlord's shadow pounce and the unseen blade (free action). Alas, I never got far enough in to truly yield results.

[MidgetMarine]

Although I couldn't promise radical difference from other TSs.

I also just have a huge soft spot for TS.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, that was my problem with my Crinti Shadow Marauder build idea, which was the first idea I'd had. UW just doesn't work well with shadowpounce until you get the free action version.

I did like the idea of a mounted build, though. I still think that using UW to turn your next attack into a touch attack, pulling out a valorous lance, and making a Spirited Charge with full PA, Craven and Maiming Strike could be fun.

[MidgetMarine]

Yeah, that was my problem with my Crinti Shadow Marauder build idea, which was the first idea I'd had. UW just doesn't work well with shadowpounce until you get the free action version.

I did like the idea of a mounted build, though. I still think that using UW to turn your next attack into a touch attack, pulling out a valorous lance, and making a Spirited Charge with full PA, Craven and Maiming Strike could be fun.

Sodomy via lance.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alright, let's see what we've got here.

Jef Costello - You weren't dinged for excessive dipping; you were hit for dipping period.

Geula Abishag - Well, damn. Terribly sorry that I missed that. +0.25 to Elegance score.

Tacgnol - The hit wasn't for the miswritten stats; it was for something else that I seem to have taken out. Regardless, doesn't seem quite fair to hold that against you. +0.25 to Elegance

Krkitctl - Huh. Another thing I missed. Blitz-judging was apparently a bad idea. +0.25 to Elegance

[The Viscount]

Wow! Fast response from the judges. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

8wGremlin, I believe last time we had psionics was cryokineticist. Peer judging would be a little odd, as you can't judge your own as it's hard to be impartial when comparing your build to others.

[Venger]

8wGremlin, I believe last time we had psionics was cryokineticist. Peer judging would be a little odd, as you can't judge your own as it's hard to be impartial when comparing your build to others.

Agree about the peer judging, that will only end in tears.

Disagree about "psionics"

Cryokineticst does indeed require psionics, but doesn't actually, y'know, advance manifestation in any way. It provides exactly as much psionic support as shadowblade does (read: none)

What are other people hungry for come saturday? I was kind of thinking about mountebank.

[Thurbane]

that's a... pretty underwhelming class. air's kind of cool. fly 20 perfect is awesome. which element did you pick? I feel like I'm missing something.

I do like the weapon thing. swing around a +1 maiming scythe and ruin everyone's lives

It's more about the flavour, enchanting your own weapon with class abilities, but yes, not a very powerful PrC...

[Amphetryon]

More contestant queries:

I have a number of issue to address with my submission of Xen'dak

Belt of Battle is sort of your go-to to actually get things flat-footed, which I wouldn't dock for, except that you've reslotted it. Removing that option seems like it would put a crimp in your swag. Falls under cheese-rules and WBL dpendence, but it's minor, so, -0.5.

Belt of battle was an after thought, my flatfooted- ness can be near guaranteed by fighting in my darkness, which I can see through, plus a very superior init, and swordsage strikes.

You've ignored the very strong fluff of Tome of Battle. I see nothing that addresses it, except for maybe the Umbra, but that's magic and not special ways of swording things. -1.

Don't understand the objection?
Drow trained in the secret arts of the Scorpion Wrath, learns new and special techniques?
but hefty penalty for ignoring fluff?

Nitpick: Rogue's Vest doesn't work with Sudden Strike. -0.25

Yes it does: MIC page 130

I don't get how you're using the signature Unseen Weapon. Your battle strategy depends on killing them before they do anything (Unexpected Strike), Perfect Sight sort of sidelines Unerring Strike, and there's no mention of Far Shadow because you always close with the enemy and instakill it. So you'll basically use Ephemeral Weapon exclusively, except in the case of Shadowy Strike with your last iterative against high-armor foes. On the other hand, you get a lot of mileage out of See in Darkness + Darkness/Sculpt Shadow. I can see why you took Shadowblade,

1.Unexpected Strike: Your opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus against your next melee attack. You gain this ability at 3rd level.

I get to use Sudden strike, and usable as a free action at Shadowblade 10!

2.Shadowy Strike: Your next melee attack is resolved as a melee touch attack, ignoring armor and natural armor. You gain this ability at 7th level.

very useful against high AC targets

3.Far Shadow: Your melee reach is increased by 10 feet for 1 round. You gain this choice at 9th level.

If I need reach for some reason

It would be very good to get some feedback on this issue

Thanks!

[Gotterdammerung]

Good job judges, was an enjoyable read after a long hard day. My memory is a little bad. How many judgings left to go besides PONIES.

Edit: Funny story, when I was reading my entry, I read "Multi-class Compliant:" and my dyslexic brain saw Multi-class compAInt. I thought "what... I didnt even do that" and then I saw a + score. Then I was like "Waaaa, why did he give me a plus for a complaint. I'm sooo confused right now." And then I realized I was an idiot and just read it wrong. I had a good laugh at myself over it.

[Kazyan]

Xen'kar:

1. Hmm...agreed. I'm still holding over -0.25 from using the hilarious custom item creation rules, though.

2. Look, I get that Tome of Battle's fluff doesn't work very well. In fact, for all its mechanical ALL HAIL NICE THINGS, it has the worst themes in D&D 3.5. But that means you have to refluff it. You don't pretend that your class should have practically no fluff, because you need to justify the downright bizarre fighting system that your character will use if you take initiator levels. And while you honored everything else in your build, leaving out Swordsage is grating. However, you've made a valid point that the penalty is too harsh when you've fit everything else well. I will reduce it to -0.5.

3. Oops. Removing penalty!

4. Every other Shadowblade could use two of those abilities for the same reasons, so I'm not giving UotSI points. Unless you've spent resources on making them unusable--Amaruak and Krkitckl's ranged attacks don't benefit from Far Shadow, for instance--anyone could use touch attacks to hit an otherwise high AC, or get reach when they need it for some reason. I'm not buying the Unexpected Strike argument, though, since you'll rarely use it:

my flatfooted- ness can be near guaranteed by fighting in my darkness, which I can see through, plus a very superior init, and swordsage strikes.

[Vaz]

What are other people hungry for come saturday? I was kind of thinking about mountebank.

I'd love an Incarnum class, but they're fairly limited entries and could see much of the same. Mounteback is good, though.

Or an OA class, even?

[Venger]

I'd love an Incarnum class, but they're fairly limited entries and could see much of the same. Mounteback is good, though.

Or an OA class, even?

NINJA SPY!

or yakuza. or iaijutsu master. honestly, I think the OA prestige classes are pretty fun. they're overshadowed by later stuff cuz they're kind of generic, but I still like them.

chair would have to adjudicate what stuff like leap of the clouds did since (for example) jumping height's no longer capped by your height.

[Kuulvheysoon]

As for the next SI when was the last time we had some psionics?

Much as I love psionics, it's hard for me to pick a 'bad' one, becuase everytime I look at lost manifester levels, I think Ardent+Practiced Manifester, and the 'penalty' of half-casting is nullified. even Shadowmind/Metamind can be saved by 9/10 manifesting.

I was going to select Psibond Agent for an ingredient (after we've had a break from stealth for a while), but apparently, it was the second one.

There are a few separate list prestige classes, and I've been looking into them.

I'd love an Incarnum class, but they're fairly limited entries and could see much of the same. Mounteback is good, though.

Or an OA class, even?

Incarnum Blade would be just about perfect if not for the fact that it capped out after 5 levels. That and we already did Incandescent Champion.

NINJA SPY!

or yakuza. or iaijutsu master. honestly, I think the OA prestige classes are pretty fun. they're overshadowed by later stuff cuz they're kind of generic, but I still like them.

chair would have to adjudicate what stuff like leap of the clouds did since (for example) jumping height's no longer capped by your height.

OA does have some pretty neat prestige clasess in it.

[123456789blaaa]

OOZELORD!

You actually gain the ability to compress your body enough to squeeze through an inch-wide crack!

[Venger]

OOZELORD!

You actually gain the ability to compress your body enough to squeeze through an inch-wide crack!

man, I hate to be this guy...

but there is no oozelord. there's masters of the wild's oozemaster (which can squeeze through an inch-wide crack) and has that black and white picture of a dude coming out of a wall

and there's slimelord from player's guide to faerun which is drow mick jagger with goops for hands.

I know sometimes people (myself included) will merge, flipflop and otherwise combine them. which one are you referring to?

I've played as both, and they're both absolutely AWESOME to play.

[123456789blaaa]

man, I hate to be this guy...

but there is no oozelord. there's masters of the wild's oozemaster (which can squeeze through an inch-wide crack) and has that black and white picture of a dude coming out of a wall

and there's slimelord from player's guide to faerun which is drow mick jagger with goops for hands.

I know sometimes people (myself included) will merge, flipflop and otherwise combine them. which one are you referring to?

I've played as both, and they're both absolutely AWESOME to play.

AARRRRRGGG! I always always always make that mistake (and I just got corrected two minutes ago!).

Anyways, I was referring to Oozemaster. Slime Lord is cool because it's one of the only playable materials related to Ghaunadaur. Unfortunately it's even worse than Oozemaster. Everything you can do with it can be duplicated better by other classes. At least with some of the weak classes out there you can do unique (if not powerfull) things with them.

[OMG PONIES]

Sorry folks, but I'll be unable to complete quality judging by the deadline.