Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[137beth]

I...am inclined to think the thread should, at this point, shift to "Class and Level General Estimations." We're not going to be able to lock things down the way we used to, and people will be less likely to try to use the thread as a club ("Roy is level 13, the Class and Level Geekery thread sez so!") if it doesn't claim a greater-than-applicable level of certainty.

Hmm, a change in title might be a good idea. Still, I think we should keep the same standards of proof, it has been awhile since we could really be very precise about anything (I mean, look at Elan and Belkar's minimum levels for their secondary classes...)

[rgrekejin]

Also, I will do a profile of Dorukan if I get assured it will be added. I'm not going to put the work in and then have it wasted.

Let me save you the trouble -

Dorukan - Human Wizard 21+, not more than 40 (based on number of energy drains Xykon used) of unknown alignment
Str / Dex / Con ~4 (age, no evidence)
Int 19+ (casts 9th level spells)
Wis / Cha ~13 (age, no evidence)
Age 83+ (17 minimum starting age for wizard, quest took place 66 years ago)
Feats: Epic Spellcasting, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat)
Skills: Knowledge(arcana) 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (to develop Cloister)
Items: Headband that acts as the focus for Cloister, Staff that somehow blocks electricity spells
Spells: Cloister, Sending, Scrying, Gate, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm, unidentified flight spell, unidentified fire spell, Arcane half of Gate-making ritual

See all those "no evidence" entries? There's not enough data on Dorukan for an entry on him to really be useful. Basically, the only things that tell us anything about him are his age and that he can cast an Epic spell. That's it. This is totally not worth cluttering up the thread with. And yes, I know Samantha and the Kobolds are on there, but Samantha was grandfathered in from a much earlier version of this thread, and the Kobolds get an exception as Linear Guild members. There is no reason to add someone who we know so little about as Dorukan.

[Chronos]

Rich, if I may? I, for one, find it fun to try to match up the comic with the D&D rules. Occasionally, that means coming to the conclusion that the comic doesn't match up with the D&D rules. But on those occasions when it doesn't, I don't think "Ha! That idiot Giant didn't know what he was talking about there!". Rather, I just think "Huh, I guess he houseruled that one. OK.", shrug my shoulders, and continue on. DMs can houserule things, and an author of a work of fiction certainly can, and it's not a problem in any way. Now, this is just speaking for myself, obviously, and some readers might take a more adversarial view of it, but I'd like to think that my non-adversarial view is shared by the significant majority of people in this thread. Peace?

[137beth]

Let me save you the trouble -

Dorukan - Human Wizard 21+, not more than 40 (based on number of energy drains Xykon used) of unknown alignment
Str ~4 (age, no evidence)
Int 19+ (casts 9th level spells)
Wis ~13 (age, no evidence)
Cha ~13 (age, no evidence)
Dex ~4 (age, no evidence)
Con ~ 4 (age, no evidence)
Age 83+ (17 minimum starting age for wizard, quest took place 66 years ago)
Feats: Epic Spellcasting, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat)
Skills: Knowledge(arcana) 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (to develop Cloister)
Items: Headband that acts as the focus for Cloister, Staff that somehow blocks electricity spells
Spells: Cloister, Sending, Scrying, Gate, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm, unidentified flight spell, unidentified fire spell, Arcane half of Gate-making ritual

See all those "no evidence" entries? There's not enough data on Dorukan for an entry on him to really be useful. Basically, the only things that tell us anything about him are his age and that he can cast an Epic spell. That's it. This is totally not worth cluttering up the thread with. And yes, I know Samantha and the Kobolds are on there, but Samantha was grandfathered in from a much earlier version of this thread, and the Kobolds get an exception as Linear Guild members. There is no reason to add someone who we know so little about as Dorukan.

Nice work.

As for changing the standards of the thread, there is really no new news concerning rules consistency. I mean, we knew way way back when Belkar sundered Elan's rapier that it was Rule of Funny, it isn't like the idea that the comic doesn't follow rules is something we just learned.

[Mage Paradox]

Let me save you the trouble -

Dorukan - Human Wizard 21+, not more than 40 (based on number of energy drains Xykon used) of unknown alignment
Str ~4 (age, no evidence)
Int 19+ (casts 9th level spells)
Wis ~13 (age, no evidence)
Cha ~13 (age, no evidence)
Dex ~4 (age, no evidence)
Con ~ 4 (age, no evidence)
Age 83+ (17 minimum starting age for wizard, quest took place 66 years ago)
Feats: Epic Spellcasting, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat)
Skills: Knowledge(arcana) 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (to develop Cloister)
Items: Headband that acts as the focus for Cloister, Staff that somehow blocks electricity spells
Spells: Cloister, Sending, Scrying, Gate, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm, unidentified flight spell, unidentified fire spell, Arcane half of Gate-making ritual

See all those "no evidence" entries? There's not enough data on Dorukan for an entry on him to really be useful. Basically, the only things that tell us anything about him are his age and that he can cast an Epic spell. That's it. This is totally not worth cluttering up the thread with. And yes, I know Samantha and the Kobolds are on there, but Samantha was grandfathered in from a much earlier version of this thread, and the Kobolds get an exception as Linear Guild members. There is no reason to add someone who we know so little about as Dorukan.

Nah, you could narrow Dorukan down more. For instance, he needs certain Epic feats to craft the gates, and he needs improved spell capacity to do a silent meteor swarm. You could also narrow his level down more based on the number of Angels summoned. But yeh, his max level is 39. And if some of it is totally unknown, just don't include that bit (rather than writing "unknown"). It'd help people who wanted to know more about him.

[Rakoa]

Nice work.

As for changing the standards of the thread, there is really no new news concerning rules consistency. I mean, we knew way way back when Belkar sundered Elan's rapier that it was Rule of Funny, it isn't like the idea that the comic doesn't follow rules is something we just learned.

It is a larger leap from "the comic occasionally doesn't follow rules" to "the author is intentionally never going to reveal any specifics ever again". With this knowledge in mind, it makes sense to relax the rules so as to allow the most likely candidates to explain a character to come to light, based more on what everyone agrees fits best as opposed to what is adamantly proved in comic.

[rgrekejin]

Nah, you could narrow Dorukan down more. For instance, he needs certain Epic feats to craft the gates, and he needs improved spell capacity to do a silent meteor swarm. You could also narrow his level down more based on the number of Angels summoned. But yeh, his max level is 39. And if some of it is totally unknown, just don't include that bit (rather than writing "unknown"). It'd help people who wanted to know more about him.

But we don't know what specific Epic feats he would need to craft the Gates, because we don't really understand what the Gates are. The number of angels he summons actually seems to contradict the cap of 39 based on Energy Drain, but I went with the one established by energy drain because the one suggested by the angels (66+) is absurd. And I would dispute that he's even really using Silent Spell here, I think it's just a stylistic thing with how The Giant wanted to show the dialogue of that scene. So basically, our sum total knowldge of Dorukan is that he's over the age of 83 and can cast an Epic spell. Everything else is pretty much derived from that.

[Mage Paradox]

Like the Giant says though, he has them say the spells out loud. And you've missed some stuff. Like Dorukan's summoning spell to call Lirian, and he'd need Greater Teleport to go and fight Xykon, Teleportation Circle to summon Lirian, Sending, Scrying (to watch Xykon in the first place), etc. He would need to be Int 19 to cast 9th level spells, + 3 for being venerable, and a staff that absorbs spells. It could be further broken down with more work. More than some characters listed.

[137beth]

Like the Giant says though, he has them say the spells out loud. And you've missed some stuff. Like Dorukan's summoning spell to call Lirian, and he'd need Greater Teleport to go and fight Xykon, Teleportation Circle to summon Lirian, Sending, Scrying (to watch Xykon in the first place), etc. It could be further broken down with more work. More than some characters listed.

If you are so confident that a good stat block for Dorukan can be made, why don't you make it? Note that if you do, people will probably start trying to pick it apart.......

[Mage Paradox]

Gate let's you summon 2 HD per level, so 11 Angels actually indicates level 33, not 66, which actually fits perfectly.
EDIT- actually I re-read it, and that only works in the case of 1 creature summoned. But my guess is the Giant made the same error when having Dorukan summon them, and meant it to apply as 2HD per level. Thus fitting in perfectly at 33.

[ti'esar]

It is a larger leap from "the comic occasionally doesn't follow rules" to "the author is intentionally never going to reveal any specifics ever again". With this knowledge in mind, it makes sense to relax the rules so as to allow the most likely candidates to explain a character to come to light, based more on what everyone agrees fits best as opposed to what is adamantly proved in comic.

I think it's a good idea to allow more "this could be X or Y" possibilities, but relaxing the rules altogether doesn't seem like it would end well.

[rgrekejin]

Like the Giant says though, he has them say the spells out loud. And you've missed some stuff. Like Dorukan's summoning spell to call Lirian, and he'd need Greater Teleport to go and fight Xykon, Teleportation Circle to summon Lirian, Sending, Scrying (to watch Xykon in the first place), etc. He would need to be Int 19 to cast 9th level spells, + 3 for being venerable, and a staff that absorbs spells. It could be further broken down with more work. More than some characters listed.

His Int would need to be 19+ for Epic Spellcasting (since it requires 9th level spellcasting), so it's still derived from that. Whether or not it was 19+ before or after he was venerable can't be known, so we're stuck with 19+, derived from the fact that he cast an Epic spell and he's old. I suppose I didn't include "unknown teleportation spell" and "unknown summoning spell" because, well, they're still unknowns. And he can't be using Teleportation Circle. It's a teleportation spell, not a summoning spell, so Cloister would block it.

Gate let's you summon 2 HD per level, so 11 Angels actually indicates level 33, not 66, which actually fits perfectly.
EDIT- actually I re-read it, and that only works in the case of 1 creature summoned. But my guess is the Giant made the same error when having Dorukan summon them, and meant it to apply as 2HD per level. Thus fitting in perfectly at 33.

So we're allowed to assume that he made an error (or a stylistic choice) here, but not with regards to the fact that Dorukan sometimes seems to not say the names of his spells, especially when there seems to be no real strategic reason for him to have prepared so darn many silent spells?

[Mage Paradox]

His Int would need to be 19+ for Epic Spellcasting (since it requires 9th level spellcasting), so it's still derived from that. Whether or not it was 19+ before or after he was venerable can't be known, so we're stuck with 19+, derived from the fact that he cast an Epic spell and he's old. I suppose I didn't include "unknown teleportation spell" and "unknown summoning spell" because, well, they're still unknowns. And he can't be using Teleportation Circle. It's a teleportation spell, not a summoning spell, so Cloister would block it.



So we're allowed to assume that he made an error (or a stylistic choice) here, but not with regards to the fact that Dorukan sometimes seems to not say the names of his spells, especially when there seems to be no real strategic reason for him to have prepared so darn many silent spells?

In flashbacks we see Dorukan craft the Gate while still young. And he'd definitely have not been venerable yet based on age estimates and current timelines. Ergo, 22+

[137beth]

I think it's a good idea to allow more "this could be X or Y" possibilities, but relaxing the rules altogether doesn't seem like it would end well.

I think this is a nice compromise. As a mathematician, it makes me cringe when people pass of something "probably" being true as either "definitely" true. There are a few things in the comic which we can prove. There is a lot more maybes. Conjectures are good. They should just be separated from theorems.

EDIT: We do not, in fact, know that 19+ Int is required to help craft a gate. (unless I missed something)

[rgrekejin]

In flashbacks we see Dorukan craft the Gate while still young. And he'd definitely have not been venerable yet based on age estimates and current timelines. Ergo, 22+

Do you know that he needed to be Epic to craft the gate? I mean, Redcloak and Xykon have a ritual which lets you move the gates, and Redcloak (a non-Epic caster) can do it. The assumption that the Gates must have been created by Epic characters is just that - an assumption. It is not a fact in evidence.

[Mage Paradox]

Do you know that he needed to be Epic to craft the gate? I mean, Redcloak and Xykon have a ritual which lets you move the gates, and Redcloak (a non-Epic caster) can do it. The assumption that the Gates must have been created by Epic characters is just that - an assumption. It is not a fact in evidence.

Redcloak tells Xykon in SoD that "both" of them would need to be Epic to craft a new gate to replace the one they destroyed. Case closed.

[Douglas]

Gate let's you summon 2 HD per level, so 11 Angels actually indicates level 33, not 66, which actually fits perfectly.
EDIT- actually I re-read it, and that only works in the case of 1 creature summoned. But my guess is the Giant made the same error when having Dorukan summon them, and meant it to apply as 2HD per level. Thus fitting in perfectly at 33.

Gate's text could reasonably be interpreted to mean that the HD limit applies only to controlling the called creatures. If you have no need to control them, such as when bringing in a group of willing allies, that limit would be irrelevant. It is entirely reasonably for a horde of angels to be willing and eager participants in a fight to bring down a major evil force such as Xykon. Thus, Dorukan's casting of Gate does not place any constraints on his caster level beyond the ability to cast Gate at all.

[SaintRidley]

Now, whether that requires an Epic ritual spell with a divine and arcane caster or an Epic Craft Gate feat followed by an Epic ritual spell with a divine and arcane caster is uncertain. So Epic Spellcasting definitely, but no other certain clues to actual level lie thataway.

[karkus]

I haven't read anything beyond this webcomic, but I'm pretty sure that if he had cast Silent Meteor Swarm, that he would need a requisite ability score (Int, right?) of 20+.

[rgrekejin]

Redcloak tells Xykon in SoD that "both" of them would need to be Epic to craft a new gate to replace the one they destroyed. Case closed.

And then right after that he explicitly says that he doesn't know how to create a new gate, and that it would take years of research to figure it out. Redcloak doesn't know whether or not you need to be epic level or not to create a gate, because he doesn't know how to create a gate at all. He, like you, is merely making an assumption. Granted, an assumption which is probably true, but not one we can prove.

[Chronos]

The simplest explanation for Dorukan's angels, I think, is that he cast the travel version of the spell, not the calling version, and previously arranged with a group of angels that they'd come through when he opened the Gate.

[The Giant]

Rich, if I may? I, for one, find it fun to try to match up the comic with the D&D rules. Occasionally, that means coming to the conclusion that the comic doesn't match up with the D&D rules. But on those occasions when it doesn't, I don't think "Ha! That idiot Giant didn't know what he was talking about there!". Rather, I just think "Huh, I guess he houseruled that one. OK.", shrug my shoulders, and continue on. DMs can houserule things, and an author of a work of fiction certainly can, and it's not a problem in any way. Now, this is just speaking for myself, obviously, and some readers might take a more adversarial view of it, but I'd like to think that my non-adversarial view is shared by the significant majority of people in this thread. Peace?

I, in no way, meant to imply that anyone is doing anything wrong by having this thread. If anything, this thread keeps these conversations from springing up all over. And in here, you argue over the strip as written rather than complaining that the strip gets it wrong.

However, I saw Kish making an assumption about the level of in-comic proof that would be required to state that Tactic X was Feat Y, and I thought it would be useful to point out that such is not a useful standard to hold anyone to anymore, because I've long since changed the way I write certain aspects of the comic. In other words, I was trying to help. I may have had some leftover snark from a thread I had just locked, though. Sorry about that.

[Douglas]

I'm a little surprised The Giant even reads this thread when not specifically called in for mod action. Then again, I seem to recall him making a post elsewhere that referenced the debate about whether carrying capacity was being ignored for flight back when that was still recent.

Personally, I can readily accept house rules, and I'm not going to accuse the author of getting a rules detail wrong as if that were a crime, but an announcement that effectively everything is homebrew now is a major disappointment to me. The rules haven't been significant joke material for quite a while, and the story can easily stand on its own by now, but the fact that it is set in a world where D&D rules are the laws of nature has always been a major part of what I like about this comic. It allows for perhaps the ultimate expression of Sanderson's First Law* (expanded to, well, everything instead of just magic), which with proper use can significantly enrich the story. Each homebrew addition weakens that a little unless explained in far greater detail than is The Giant's style.

*Sanderson's First Law of Magics: An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.

---

1

Anyway, on the Mage Slayer topic. I assumed back when Roy was learning it in Heaven that it was a homebrew feat, in large part because the way it was described didn't match - the few comments we got about its effect seemed to indicate an exceptionally severe disruption of spellcasting, not simply being guaranteed to get an AoO. This was supported by Roy planning to ready an action to disrupt, which has nothing to do with Mage Slayer at all.

Then I got to this comic, and it shows Roy A) paying special attention to individual attacks, and B) not making any attacks other than the disrupting ones at all. With Mage Slayer, each disrupting attack would be an AoO, and Roy would be free to full attack each round too (an option he'd have to be incredibly stupid to ignore), and there are several other non-matching details too. What we're shown here matches a special readied attack that either boosts the concentration DC or skips the check entirely; it does not match Mage Slayer. There is some mention of defensive casting not working, but that's consistent with any readied disruption attack even without a special feat, and if it were Mage Slayer then Xykon would quite explicitly have been aware of it before the first disruption happened.

[Tomada]

I, in no way, meant to imply that anyone is doing anything wrong by having this thread. If anything, this thread keeps these conversations from springing up all over. And in here, you argue over the strip as written rather than complaining that the strip gets it wrong.

However, I saw Kish making an assumption about the level of in-comic proof that would be required to state that Tactic X was Feat Y, and I thought it would be useful to point out that such is not a useful standard to hold anyone to anymore, because I've long since changed the way I write certain aspects of the comic. In other words, I was trying to help. I may have had some leftover snark from a thread I had just locked, though. Sorry about that.

Thank you, Giant, for caring about us, and our collective waste of time.

As for the people in the thread, I think this is definite that we should use Razors more, because we are never ever getting definite proof of anything, and if we really NEED definite proof, then we are better off closing down the thread.

And Giant, if I may, I would like to express that I like it when you reference the rules, and though that you coming to this thread recently meant you were trying to keep as to close to the rules as you could.

Of course you will make changes to adapt to your story, but I really like the fact that you managed to build such a story constrained by such a set of rules. I think it makes you an even better writer to have managed to do so while constrained, it would have been much easier to write it without any ruleset, or even build a ruleset later (as is/was the case with many fantasy settings).

[Flame of Anor]

And Giant, if I may, I would like to express that I like it when you reference the rules

I do too, but whatever. The story is more important.

[Mage Paradox]

I agree the story is more important. I seriously could not care less about what the stats of 4 out of the 6 party members are, mainly because I've never been interested (even a little bit) in any of the classes except the magic ones (and mainly the arcane users). I have no interest in it. But I do know enough about the arcane users to be bothered when stuff seems inconsistent. That's just how I feel.

I do think it's obvious the Giant's new stance basically forces a lower burden of proof, since everyone except casters will be hamstrung by this to a large degree.

[ti'esar]

I do think it's obvious the Giant's new stance basically forces a lower burden of proof, since everyone except casters will be hamstrung by this to a large degree.

As for the people in the thread, I think this is definite that we should use Razors more, because we are never ever getting definite proof of anything, and if we really NEED definite proof, then we are better off closing down the thread.

I still think that it's better to try and list more possibilities - along the lines of the "Class and Level General Estimations" mentioned earlier - instead of lowering the burden of proof across the board. I just can't see that ending well. To take just one example, the fact that we now know for certain that we'll never get a straight answer to Xykon's level doesn't do anything to change the fact that there's at least three different levels he can be pegged at.

[Mage Paradox]

Changing the burden to "what is probable" rather than "what we are 100% sure of" is not cheapening this, because the Giant has made it clear he's going to make it impossible wherever he can from now on to determine such things. Xykon being listed at his probable level isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing. The only reason he isn't listed at 27+ now is because of sticklers anyway, who want to construct absurdly unlikely scenarios (like him having an invisible metamagic rod). Not even those sticklers really believe Xykon is only level 21, not when he was 19+ a full 28 years ago (before he had numerous fights and level up chances). Just review some of the stuff Xykon has done since then:
- killed Epic Lirian (and her forces)
- killed Epic Dorukan (and his fleet of Angels)
- gotten XP for fighting Epic Soon and his many paladins
- gotten XP for getting past an Ancient Silver Dragon (and numerous other monsters in his tower)
- gotten XP for beating uber Epic Darth V (that should be a full level right there)
- gotten XP for conquering Azure city (story XP certainly)
- gotten XP for the numerous random fights he is described as having (like enemies popping out of pot plants)

[Charmy]

Note what follows is personal opinion. Should go without saying, but I want to emphasize that anyway.

I was a little bummed out to hear that the Giant is, and has been for some time, abandoning any pretense of following D&D rules. And it does really hurt the purpose of this thread.

Do levels mean anything anymore? Feats? Classes? If I'm understanding the Giant's words, then pretty much everything from here on out will be homebrew or nonD20 altogether, so any attempt to nail down anything about the characters will simply be an exercise in, "if this story played out using D&D rules, this is how it might have been". But this can be done for any fantasy story. OoTS was something different.

The fact that this story used to take place in a real, fairly faithful and realized D&D 3.5 world was a large part of the comic's appeal in my eyes. This is what the comic was at the beginning, when the rules were mentioned all the time, poked fun at, and embraced. Remember when the Giant described Miko's fight with the order turn by turn? That was great! He was actively trying to cater to us D&D fans and talked about stat values, specific feats, skills.. all real things from the player's handbook and other canon sources. Yes there were some homebrew things, but they were interesting exceptions that were highlighted.

Although the rules were constraining, being able to tell a compelling and funny story within those constraints was part of what made OoTS truly unique. Has this been completely abandoned? Do battles even take place in turns anymore? I wonder if we're going to start seeing things like a fight between two high level fighters end in a single climatic blow without explanation because it is better for the narrative and HP 'gets in the way' of drama.

The Giant has even gone as far as to chastize someone in the comic thread for suggesting he might have made a mistake with his interpretation of the rules because in his words, "there are no rules". This is a departure from when he used to admit error/deviation, or at least try to explain himself within the context of a world governed by D&D 3.5 rules.

When a content creator begins to say something like"This is my story, no mistake can ever be made and how dare you tell me I might have made a mistake!", I can't help but smell a touch of hubris. My understanding of that post was, "This is not a D&D comic anymore based on 3.5 rules and is now completely exempt from any criticism because of its roots. In fact, I will now actively and snarkily berate anyone who dares to try!". Maybe this has been the case for awhile now. Maybe I've missed the memo. In any case, I am disappointed.

I guess this means the MiTD thread is kinda a waste now too, because although he originally stated the MiTD was a known creature within canon sources, he can now just change it, or select an existing creature that was completely written due to its characteristics because of some new homebrew stuff. "Oh yeah its just a Beholder that can punch people through walls and cause earthquakes by stomping cuz y'know.. magic.. and the plot called for it"

Perhaps the Giant has been worn down by criticism of his work. Where he once tried to adhere to the rule system, he has now just given up. If it really was a source of frustration and irritation, instead of an interesting intellectual exercise I can understand why he'd make that choice. The narrative freedom must be liberating, as he can now construct whatever concept he wishes that is required by the storyline without reference to D&D source material and safe from analysis. The world will hopefully remain internally consistent as required by any good story, but all externally imposed restraints are henceforth nullified.

Anyway, I think I've made my feelings clear. I plan to still read the comic, but I do mourn for what the comic once was, and hope someone else will try something similar in the future :-)

[SinsI]

The only reason he isn't listed at 27+ now is because of sticklers anyway, who want to construct absurdly unlikely scenarios (like him having an invisible metamagic rod). Not even those sticklers really believe Xykon is only level 21, not when he was 19+ a full 28 years ago (before he had numerous fights and level up chances).

Custom magic item that duplicates effects of a metamagic rod with a different slot requirement (or no at all) is a lot less power creep than 2-3 Epic feats that must be spent on it (with all the wealth that comes with the Epic levels required to earn them).

Just review some of the stuff Xykon has done since then:
- killed Epic Lirian (and her forces)
- killed Epic Dorukan (and his fleet of Angels)
- gotten XP for fighting Epic Soon and his many paladins
- gotten XP for getting past an Ancient Silver Dragon (and numerous other monsters in his tower)
- gotten XP for beating uber Epic Darth V (that should be a full level right there)
- gotten XP for conquering Azure city (story XP certainly)
- gotten XP for the numerous random fights he is described as having (like enemies popping out of pot plants)

1. He is a Lich, which drastically reduces any XP he gains and makes most of those encounters give no XP at all.
2. He spends a lot of time creating magic items - and those eat up XP at an incredible rate.