Dreamscarred Press Introduces Lords of the Wild- The Playtest!

[Elricaltovilla]

Following the success of Lords of the Night, Dreamscarred Press's foray into vampire teen romance specific storytelling options for the Pathfinder Roleplaying System, we've decided to continue exploring these monstrous themes with the addition of a second book to the Lords of _______ series. Lords of the Wild brings new options to players and GMs looking to add new layers to their game through the addition of rules and material regarding the use of werewolves and other shapeshifters in a campaign.

Inside the playtest document you'll find the new Werewolf Template, new class archetypes, new feats and spells, options for expanding roleplay, insights into werewolf society and an all new discipline*. This material is all contained inside a single living document and still subject to change throughout the playtest, so keep an eye out for announcements about new additions and changes going forward.

For those of you unfamiliar with me, I'm Elric. I've previously worked with Dreamscarred Press on their Path of War: Expanded book as well as the Steelforge releases. This is the first project that I'm acting as lead designer for and I'm very excited to bring it to you alongside my co-author, Keledrath (I'll let him introduce himself). But enough about me, here's what you all actually want:


The Lords of the Wild Playtest is complete and access to the playtest documents is now closed. Thank you for your participation in and support of this playtest and of Dreamscarred Press.



*The presence of this new discipline is in no way a guarantee that future supplements will also include new martial disciplines.

[Vhaidara]

Good to see you all once again. Just here to say I brought presents. Hope you have fun with them, and let us know if anything breaks so we can fix it

On a more serious note, a lot of you will know me from previous DSP playtest threads, though this is the first time I'm on the end of the writer. Thanks to Elric for the opportunity. Gave me a chance to play around with some interesting class and feat ideas

[Callin]

*Begins to devour the book*

Skimmed the book and I like alot of what yall have done here. I however think the Discipline is way overtuned. My DM already is starting to have issue with the Path of War Expanded stuff. To the point he is ready to ban it.

[Mehangel]

I noticed that there are several instances of the Shapeshifter subtype as opposed to Core Pathfinder's Shapechanger subtype. Is this intentional? Do rangers have to take both favored enemy shapeshifter and shapechanger? Do shapechangers count as shapeshifters?

[Elricaltovilla]

*Begins to devour the book*

Skimmed the book and I like alot of what yall have done here. I however think the Discipline is way overtuned. My DM already is starting to have issue with the Path of War Expanded stuff. To the point he is ready to ban it.

I think you'd be surprised. Much of the discipline is actually under par on damage, and while there's a few interesting counters (Bristle is a favorite of mine), and the stances can provide some excellent utility, it's generally pretty tame. If you have anything specific you're concerned about I'd love to hear your opinions on the discipline in greater detail.

[stack]

Rabid bite - no duration on the fatigue (presume this is intentional), does it stack to exhausted? I presume no, but a callout might be helpful.

[Vhaidara]

I noticed that there are several instances of the Shapeshifter subtype as opposed to Core Pathfinder's Shapechanger subtype. Is this intentional? Do rangers have to take both favored enemy shapeshifter and shapechanger? Do shapechangers count as shapeshifters?

Nope. Me forgetting which one paizo used. Should be fixed now

@Rabid Bite: added in a no stacking clause.

[Lix Lorn]

Thoughts of mine, courtesy of my very specific areas of focus (usually fluff and versatility):
-Silver Bullets. This is cool, but there's absolutely no mention or provision for churches that say 'werewolves? oh snap have some of our blessed silver.' It must happen sometimes, after all - and using the assumption that it doesn't as a balancing point is Not Smart, if that was the idea.
-It bugs me that it takes 'society rejects werewolves all the time' as a given, although I suppose that's a genre staple.
-...similarly, Did You Know that the 'alpha' idea has been disproven? wolf packs don't actually work like that. But the idea is way too embedded in the public consciousness to abandon, so this is a useless point.
-"At 8th level, an unshackled rager gains the trip special attack". This might be my lack of pathfinder familiarity, but shouldn't this be Improved Trip, or Improved Grab, or something other than just trip?
-Silverblade Hunter is kinda underwhelming. I'm probably expecting too much from an archetype, but "silverblade hunters are those who have trained in the use of true silver, refining their skills beyond those of normal warriors by taking advantage of the weightlessness native to their prefered metal." made me expect some Really Awesome Stuff, and what I got was... well, useful, I guess, but... well. Does Mithral Weapon Training let you dual wield two handed weapons? That'd be fun, I guess, although the aesthetic is all wrong.
It's also worth noting that this is a straight buff to fighter. They /technically/ lose heavy armor, but in return they get to wear heavy mithral armor as medium armor, so... the advantages literally negate the disadvantages.
But then. Fighter.
-I love shifting feats. I love this kind of feat tree that expands on itself. Delicious. 10/10.
-Blade Breaking Hide 11/10. Cinematic.
-Envenomed Fangs, "Living creatures normally immune to ability score damage or poison effects are still affected by this ability." ...why? There's no fluff reason for this, I mean. It /is/ a poison effect. I guess this is a balance thing, akin to 'everything has fire immunity', but... ech. Personally I'd use the fluff of the lycanthropic curse to explain the ability damage, and say that's why it bypassed immunity.
-Primal Surge, "equal to your Initiation Modifier." Is Initiation Modifier a thing? I thought I remembered a PoW person talking about how there's not a mechanical definition of the term, and it's /awkward/ to make one. I may be thinking of something else, though, sorry if I'm wrong.
-Trample, "You may make a free overrun attempt against that creature that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and uses your Knowledge (Nature) in place of the combat maneuver check."
This could be another 'Lixie doesn't know pathfinder balance' thing, but in 3.5 this would worry me a lot. Skill checks are really really easy to get to the moon. but then it's only an attack roll with +1d6 damage, so it's not a huge issue.
-Bristle. Presumably this maneuver stops the movement they triggered your reaction with, but it probably wants to specify that their current movement is stopped. If so, do they lose their move action? Do they move until they're 30ft away then stop? do they move until 30ft away then can keep moving as long as they stay 30+ft away?
-I googled Bullete to check if it was a thing and there were three pictures of a land-shark-bullet thing, so I'll assume that's what you meant and it's not a Bulette typo. ^_^''
-Chimeric Body Stance, "When you enter this stance, choose four of the following natural attacks: 2 claws 1d4 (primary), 2 slams 1d4 (primary), bite 1d6 (primary), gore 1d6 (primary), 2 hooves 1d4 (secondary), 2 tentacles 1d4 (secondary), or tail slap 1d6 (secondary). " To clarify, is '2 claws' two of your four attacks, or one choice?
-Dragon's Breath. I think it should scale. I'm aware that this is not a popular thought and... why am I even saying this you can't break the rule /now/.
-Kraken's Grasp gives me the same worry as Trample.
-Overall it's great! I'd use this discipline happily. It's worth noting that most Path of War stuff feels a little undertuned to me, so this may be a bit stronger than usual.

Overall it's pretty great though. :)

Edit: Friend pointedd out he shorthand for Rampage includes a stacking -2 penalty to hit. The textblock does not. It's better without, imo, it's gonna be underwhelming with it.

[Vhaidara]

Focusing on stuff i did

-"At 8th level, an unshackled rager gains the trip special attack". This might be my lack of pathfinder familiarity, but shouldn't this be Improved Trip, or Improved Grab, or something other than just trip?

Actually, trip is the ability that lets you make a trip attempt on hit.

-Silverblade Hunter is kinda underwhelming. I'm probably expecting too much from an archetype, but "silverblade hunters are those who have trained in the use of true silver, refining their skills beyond those of normal warriors by taking advantage of the weightlessness native to their prefered metal." made me expect some Really Awesome Stuff, and what I got was... well, useful, I guess, but... well. Does Mithral Weapon Training let you dual wield two handed weapons? That'd be fun, I guess, although the aesthetic is all wrong.
It's also worth noting that this is a straight buff to fighter. They /technically/ lose heavy armor, but in return they get to wear heavy mithral armor as medium armor, so... the advantages literally negate the disadvantages.
But then. Fighter.

As you mentioned, fighter

The other thing it does is actually enable heavily armored dex characters, since you can wear mithral full plate and use your full Dex bonus. Since it is intentionally compatible with PoW:E's Myrmidon, you can access Iron Pikeman Attitude to treat your armor as light. Or you could stay on a Str build and dual wield two handed mithral greatswords with Prodigious TWF.

Basically, you can use speed over strength with a lot of things you normally can't. And it gives Mithral a purpose as a weapon material.

-I love shifting feats. I love this kind of feat tree that expands on itself. Delicious. 10/10.

Thank you. They were my first really big idea for this book, and I'm glad they came out looking good.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'll second the silverblade being a bit boring. The Silver Balladeer bard archetype is another archetype that focuses on silver stuff; maybe exchanging a bonus feat for something similar to Silver Mastery?

The shifting feats remind me of the damnation feats from Champions of Corruption. The more you take the more they benefit you.

[Elricaltovilla]

Thoughts of mine, courtesy of my very specific areas of focus (usually fluff and versatility):

Feedback is always appreciated!

-Silver Bullets. This is cool, but there's absolutely no mention or provision for churches that say 'werewolves? oh snap have some of our blessed silver.' It must happen sometimes, after all - and using the assumption that it doesn't as a balancing point is Not Smart, if that was the idea.

So, this one is something I borrowed from Slavic (iirc) myths about werewolves, which required the silver to be stolen from the church, not given freely. Since I have to be careful about hitting too close to home with the real world religions I may have played this a little close to the chest. It's still open to adjustment though.

-It bugs me that it takes 'society rejects werewolves all the time' as a given, although I suppose that's a genre staple.

It is a genre staple, for better or worse. Though there are sections that account for werewolves being accepted in society (or perhaps, will be). It's one of those things that is tricky to balance properly.

-...similarly, Did You Know that the 'alpha' idea has been disproven? wolf packs don't actually work like that. But the idea is way too embedded in the public consciousness to abandon, so this is a useless point.

Oh yes, I'm aware. Natural wolf packs form through continuing familial bonds. Artificial wolf packs (those created to try and save wolf populations) do follow the "alpha" system. And werewolf packs are anything but natural

-"At 8th level, an unshackled rager gains the trip special attack". This might be my lack of pathfinder familiarity, but shouldn't this be Improved Trip, or Improved Grab, or something other than just trip?

Well, you're right to be confused. See, there's the Trip combat maneuver, which is improved by the feats Improved Trip and Greater Trip, the trip weapon quality, which does basically nothing and The trip special ability for monsters, which allows a free trip attack when you hit with the natural weapon that has the trip special ability.

-Blade Breaking Hide 11/10. Cinematic.

I'm fond of it too

[QUOTE=Lix Lorn;20463864]-Envenomed Fangs, "Living creatures normally immune to ability score damage or poison effects are still affected by this ability." ...why? There's no fluff reason for this, I mean. It /is/ a poison effect. I guess this is a balance thing, akin to 'everything has fire immunity', but... ech. Personally I'd use the fluff of the lycanthropic curse to explain the ability damage, and say that's why it bypassed immunity.

-Primal Surge, "equal to your Initiation Modifier." Is Initiation Modifier a thing? I thought I remembered a PoW person talking about how there's not a mechanical definition of the term, and it's /awkward/ to make one. I may be thinking of something else, though, sorry if I'm wrong.

Chimera Soul is more for general shapeshifting rather than being werewolf specific. It's fluff is not tied to werewolves, so justifying the maneuver's effectiveness via werewolf curse doesn't work because you don't need to be a werewolf to use it.

As "One of the Path of War guys" I can assure you that Initiation Modifier is indeed a thing. It's the mental (or other) ability score you use to determine how many maneuvers you recover and their save DC. It's usually spelled out in the Maneuvers Readed section of the appropriate class/archetype.

-Trample, "You may make a free overrun attempt against that creature that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and uses your Knowledge (Nature) in place of the combat maneuver check."
This could be another 'Lixie doesn't know pathfinder balance' thing, but in 3.5 this would worry me a lot. Skill checks are really really easy to get to the moon. but then it's only an attack roll with +1d6 damage, so it's not a huge issue.

Skill Checks are easy to pump up, but CMD (the effective DC you're trying to meet with the skill check) also scales sky high, but only on monsters. It's been thoroughly vetted over the last two years, don't worry.

-Bristle. Presumably this maneuver stops the movement they triggered your reaction with, but it probably wants to specify that their current movement is stopped. If so, do they lose their move action? Do they move until they're 30ft away then stop? do they move until 30ft away then can keep moving as long as they stay 30+ft away?

The best way I can describe it is to think of Bristle like putting up an impassable wall of some sort. It doesn't interrupt the enemy's movement, just dictates where they can and can't go. I'll fiddle with the wording though.

-I googled Bullete to check if it was a thing and there were three pictures of a land-shark-bullet thing, so I'll assume that's what you meant and it's not a Bulette typo. ^_^''

That might still be a spelling error on my part. I'll double check, thanks.

-Chimeric Body Stance, "When you enter this stance, choose four of the following natural attacks: 2 claws 1d4 (primary), 2 slams 1d4 (primary), bite 1d6 (primary), gore 1d6 (primary), 2 hooves 1d4 (secondary), 2 tentacles 1d4 (secondary), or tail slap 1d6 (secondary). " To clarify, is '2 claws' two of your four attacks, or one choice?

The 2 claws is currently counted as ONE of your four attacks. This may change as more feedback comes in.

-Dragon's Breath. I think it should scale. I'm aware that this is not a popular thought and... why am I even saying this you can't break the rule /now/.

Dragon's breath unfortunately can't scale. But I'm looking at ways to give it more oomph. This may be more dice, or it might be rider effects. We'll see.

-Kraken's Grasp gives me the same worry as Trample.

Kraken's Grasp is one I'm keeping an eye on. It's an attempt to grapple without having to look up the grappling rules, but the Skill check vs. CMD thing is not terribly unbalanced.

-Overall it's great! I'd use this discipline happily. It's worth noting that most Path of War stuff feels a little undertuned to me, so this may be a bit stronger than usual.

Overall it's pretty great though. :)

I'm glad you're enjoying it so far. Please feel free to keep the feeback coming!

[Deadkitten]

Hmmmm.....beast swipe might be a bit good as written for a first level maneuver.

That's all I can really say about it so far.

[Vhaidara]

I'll second the silverblade being a bit boring. The Silver Balladeer bard archetype is another archetype that focuses on silver stuff; maybe exchanging a bonus feat for something similar to Silver Mastery?

Eh, silver mastery is kind of pointless when you get a free mithral (aka silver++) weapon, and the counting as cold iron is just off for the archetype.

EDIT: that was an awkward place to miss a letter

[Elricaltovilla]

Hmmmm.....beast swipe might be a bit good as written for a first level maneuver.

That's all I can really say about it so far.

One of the things that makes Chimera Soul interesting (and tricky) is that it has to be balance around characters who both have and lack the appropriate natural weapon to initiate the maneuvers. Generally this means about a 2-6 point difference in damage potential, but for some maneuvers it can be more. Beast Swipe is one of those maneuvers, but it's also the kind of thing that ages well and having a few of those around is something I think is good for the game overall.

[Troacctid]

The 2 claws is currently counted as ONE of your four attacks. This may change as more feedback comes in.

That seems confusing.

[Elricaltovilla]

That seems confusing.

It has to do with pathfinder's formatting of certain natural attacks as pairs or individual. It's complicated but I'll try and work out something that makes sense.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Eh, silver mastery is kind of pointless when you get a free mithral (aka silver++) weapon, and the counting as cold iron is just off for the archetype.

EDIT: that was an awkward place to miss a letter

If its set in stone that the fighter has to use mithral, why not let him DO things with mithral rather than just make it easier for him to use things?

[AoiEMT]

If its set in stone that the fighter has to use mithral, why not let him DO things with mithral rather than just make it easier for him to use things?

I'm guessing the intention is to pair this with the fighter archetype that's grants maneuvers and taking the mithral current discipline.

Though does silver vulnerability stack?

[Sayt]

Unexpected! But not unwelcome.

A few notes, as I read through:

-The Change Shape Universal Monster Rule calls for a Polymorph affect to be referenced. Pro forma rules thing, but it also informs the specific mechanical effects of the shapechange. Of course, if you don't want it to be, one of the extant Polymorph Spells, you can just write your own.

-My understanding of the Alpha/Beta etc pack structure thing is that it's mostly a human construct imposed on our perceptions of wolves in captivity. Packs in the wild are generally family groups, and aggressive dominance competition is a by-product of force co-habitiation between non-relatives. That said, this is a fantasy game, with Werewolves, so just my 2c. Addressed

-Wrath of the Blood Moon: If a creature possesses only one natural weapon, that natural weapon deals +50% damage anyway. If one has Wrath of the Blood Moon and Vicious Bite/Mighty jaws (as opposed to one of the Claw granting abilities), would that werewolf gain +100% Power attack damage?

-Secret of the Shared Soul: Should this feat have the psionic tag? I mean, it applies to psionic manifestation.


-Unshackled Rager:
--Unchained Rage, very nice, I approve.
--The damage delay is a nice blast from the past of 3.5, but I think what really made it then was, IIRC, that you got a to hit bonus when you had damage "In the pipe", a mechanic I think is quite flavourful for a raging character. I like Savagerry later on though, that's a nice mitigation mechanic.
--That said, I don't like constant Freedom of Movement. At all. I hate hardcounters and thing that just say No. I'd much prefer a strong bonus to CMD vs Grapple and CMB to take initiate/gain control of a grapple. But then, that doesn't mean that FoM isn't a thing.

-Silverblade hunter:
--Instinctive: Maybe throw them their choice of Sense Motive or Perception as a class skill as well? both very important for hunting Lycans
--Mithral Armament seems a little wonky. it's equivalent on Gunslinger works because the setting assumes that guns are rareified. What about a Longsword being made of Mithral makes it harder to use? Also, can the Silverblade hunter select a weapon he's not proficient with?
--Mithral Armour Training: This just seems really odd. Mithral armour is hugely expensive (Medium costs +4k), and only strongly dex-focused characters are going to favour Mithral over +1/2 armour at the levels this is relevant. Furthermore the "One size category Lighter" thing seems a little odd. So a L3 Fighter with a Mithral Breastplate counts the Breastplate as weighing as if it was sized for a small creature? That seems... incredibly niche, considering Mithral already makes a weapon lighter.
--Mithral Weapon Training is just cool, I like this a lot. But what happens when the Fighter gets to Weapon Training 2? Does he take Advance weapon trainings or get no benefit? I'd perhaps require AWTs from WT2 onwards.

-Varsärks:
-Wolf's Rage is interesting, though I'd throw in some flavour text to make it clear that you're in a Hybrid form.
-Coat of Winter: Very cool ability. It only affecting him, but not allies adjacent seems a little odd, but what the hey.
--Class makes me think of Amon Amarth's Live For the Kill. Nice.

-Shifting Feats: I like the scaling affects, like the Damnation Feats, but not evil only!
--Strongclaw shifting: Should probably note that it's 1d4 for medium sized creatures.

Chimera Soul looks interesting, although I'm surprised the Primal Disciple doesn't get access.
--Chimeric Body Stance: I don't really understand the restriction against gaining multiple sets of similar type natural weapons? What's wrong with emulating the Girallon, or Cerberus? The only thing I can think of is that it gives better returns from Weapon Focus, but I'm pretty sure we all know Weapon Focus is kinda garbage. is there a reason I've missed? (Edit: This was predicatred on 2 claws being two choices)
--Kraken's Grasp: Very cool fluff, interesting concept, but...a random sampling of CR11 monsters show CMDs of 30-40. 11 ranks, 3 from class skill and 2-5 from ability mod gives you 14-19 or so, needing a 15 to get this on the first go. The duration (Special, see text), the text doesn't actually say when it ends. I'm guessing it's supposed to when you fail to entangle? Perhaps make this a straight CMB check with a fractional bonus per rank in K.(Nature)? (Edit: I didn't know that the Knowledge Pendant was a thing, yikes)
--Lamia's Sting: No mention of strength damage, which some other attacks granted by temporary natural weapons do mention. Maybe some standardisation/clarification is needed?
--Unleashed Dragon Stance: ....ok, I can definitely dig it.
--Rampage: Holy crap this is pretty cool, and nicely breaks the mould away from some of the "Fullattack with +Damage" and "Singlestrike SoD" 9ths.

Chimeric soul is very cool for a wild, rapid shapeshifting combat form, which is a thing I've wanted to see for a while.

[Elricaltovilla]

Unexpected! But not unwelcome.

A few notes, as I read through:

-The Change Shape Universal Monster Rule calls for a Polymorph affect to be referenced. Pro forma rules thing, but it also informs the specific mechanical effects of the shapechange. Of course, if you don't want it to be, one of the extant Polymorph Spells, you can just write your own.

The wording was pulled pretty much exactly from the Lycanthrope template which does not specify a polymorph spell either.

-Wrath of the Blood Moon: If a creature
possesses only one natural weapon, that natural weapon deals +50% damage anyway. If one has Wrath of the Blood Moon and Vicious Bite/Mighty jaws (as opposed to one of the Claw granting abilities), would that werewolf gain +100% Power attack damage?

By RAW, no. I may end up looking at borrowing some wording from Dragon Style if necessary.

-Secret of the Shared Soul: Should this feat have the psionic tag? I mean, it applies to psionic manifestation.

Probably. I'll get to fixing that.

-Varsärks:
-Wolf's Rage is interesting, though I'd throw in some flavour text to make it clear that you're in a Hybrid form.
-Coat of Winter: Very cool ability. It only affecting him, but not allies adjacent seems a little odd, but what the hey.
--Class makes me think of Amon Amarth's Live For the Kill. Nice.

Varsark don't enter hybrid form. They fully transform into a wolf, per the spell beast shape of whatever relevant level. This PrC is based a bit on 3.5's bear warrior like that. I'm glad you like it though.

Chimera Soul looks interesting, although I'm surprised the Primal Disciple doesn't get access.
--Chimeric Body Stance: I don't really understand the restriction against gaining multiple sets of similar type natural weapons? What's wrong with emulating the Girallon, or Cerberus? The only thing I can think of is that it gives better returns from Weapon Focus, but I'm pretty sure we all know Weapon Focus is kinda garbage. is there a reason I've missed? (Edit: This was predicatred on 2 claws being two choices)
--Kraken's Grasp: Very cool fluff, interesting concept, but...a random sampling of CR11 monsters show CMDs of 30-40. 11 ranks, 3 from class skill and 2-5 from ability mod gives you 14-19 or so, needing a 15 to get this on the first go. The duration (Special, see text), the text doesn't actually say when it ends. I'm guessing it's supposed to when you fail to entangle? Perhaps make this a straight CMB check with a fractional bonus per rank in K.(Nature)? (Edit: I didn't know that the Knowledge Pendant was a thing, yikes)
--Lamia's Sting: No mention of strength damage, which some other attacks granted by temporary natural weapons do mention. Maybe some standardisation/clarification is needed?
--Unleashed Dragon Stance: ....ok, I can definitely dig it.
--Rampage: Holy crap this is pretty cool, and nicely breaks the mould away from some of the "Fullattack with +Damage" and "Singlestrike SoD" 9ths.

Chimeric soul is very cool for a wild, rapid shapeshifting combat form, which is a thing I've wanted to see for a while.

The discipline accesses are still subject to change, though remember anyone can gain access through Unorthodox Method or the (upcoming) martial tradition.

Chimeric Body Stance (and other maneuvers) restriction comes from me not wanting to deal with Kali builds and the fallout of that. If someone gains 4 additional sets of arms because they're in Chimeric Body Stance, they'd have the option of quad wielding greatswords. While that's fun and all, it doesn't fit the theme of the discipline at all and causes a lot of complaints.

Kraken's Grasp and other skill check maneuvers have a fair number of boosts available in the form of items and feats. For example, just taking Skill Focus (K. Nature) nets you a +6 by the time this rolls around. And I see you found the Knowledge Pendant too.

Unleashed Dragon Stance and Rampage are tons of fun for me. I liked the opportunity to cut loose a little bit with them.

EDIT: Lamia's sting doesn't do strength damage. It's a fort save or paralyze.

[Vhaidara]

-Unshackled Rager:
--Unchained Rage, very nice, I approve.
--The damage delay is a nice blast from the past of 3.5, but I think what really made it then was, IIRC, that you got a to hit bonus when you had damage "In the pipe", a mechanic I think is quite flavourful for a raging character. I like Savagerry later on though, that's a nice mitigation mechanic.
--That said, I don't like constant Freedom of Movement. At all. I hate hardcounters and thing that just say No. I'd much prefer a strong bonus to CMD vs Grapple and CMB to take initiate/gain control of a grapple. But then, that doesn't mean that FoM isn't a thing.

I was trying to stay with the Unshackled theme. If you look at both that and the capstone, there's a thee later on in the class of "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED." The goal here was less of noping grapple and more noping casters dropping debuffs

-Silverblade hunter:
--Instinctive: Maybe throw them their choice of Sense Motive or Perception as a class skill as well? both very important for hunting Lycans

All Wisdom based skills are class skills for a Silverblade Hunter

--Mithral Armament seems a little wonky. it's equivalent on Gunslinger works because the setting assumes that guns are rareified. What about a Longsword being made of Mithral makes it harder to use? Also, can the Silverblade hunter select a weapon he's not proficient with?

Currently working on wording to make them proficient with the weapon of choice. The wonkiness comes from me wanting to avoid stupid stuff like dipping into the class and selling it for a stupid amount of money at level 1.

--Mithral Armour Training: This just seems really odd. Mithral armour is hugely expensive (Medium costs +4k), and only strongly dex-focused characters are going to favour Mithral over +1/2 armour at the levels this is relevant. Furthermore the "One size category Lighter" thing seems a little odd. So a L3 Fighter with a Mithral Breastplate counts the Breastplate as weighing as if it was sized for a small creature? That seems... incredibly niche, considering Mithral already makes a weapon lighter.

I think you misunderstand. It's one category lighter. So the Mithral Breastplate is treated as Light armor for all purposes, including proficiency. It's not treated as one category smaller.

--Mithral Weapon Training is just cool, I like this a lot. But what happens when the Fighter gets to Weapon Training 2? Does he take Advance weapon trainings or get no benefit? I'd perhaps require AWTs from WT2 onwards.

Well, hypothetically, he could take other weapon categories, i guess. Don't see any reason to lock him out of those. Heck, maybe he wants to pick up archery. But most people will be going for AWT if they have the book anyways.

-Shifting Feats: I like the scaling affects, like the Damnation Feats, but not evil only!
--Strongclaw shifting: Should probably note that it's 1d4 for medium sized creatures.

Good catch, will fix now

[MilleniaAntares]

It has to do with pathfinder's formatting of certain natural attacks as pairs or individual. It's complicated but I'll try and work out something that makes sense.

How about, "you may choose X options from the following: 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail, etc"?

[Elricaltovilla]

How about, "you may choose X options from the following: 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail, etc"?

That wording might work better. I'll get to it when I get a chance.

[Troacctid]

I like the werewolf template. It's pretty appealing for the equivalent of a single level. I would strongly consider taking it on a lot of characters.

Is Song of the Wyrd Howl meant to affect only spells, or is it supposed to include spell-like abilities as well?

The Unshackled Rager can technically enter a lupine frenzy multiple times per combat, but I can't imagine why they would want to—as soon as the first one ends, they're fatigued, like, forever, and even if the combat lasts long enough for the fatigue to wear off, re-entering a frenzy doesn't give you any more temporary HP.

Is the Varsärk's Endure Elements meant to be self-only? As written, it functions like the spell, except that it's continuous...which should mean that you can use it on anyone you touch to permanently give them the benefit. Perhaps instead say that the Varsärk is constantly under the effect of Endure Elements.

Superior Rabid Bite doesn't replace the effect of Rabid Bite, so any time you hit with a bite attack, the target makes two saves, once of which is totally pointless.

Feral Vitality seems quite strong to be available at such low levels, even with the feat tax. I'm surprised it doesn't have more prerequisites (not even Con 13?). The shapechanger subtype doesn't seem like much of a barrier. I'm not familiar with a lot of the non-core Pathfinder material—is fast healing normally this easy to get?

Extra Shifting should probably require you to have another shifting feat.

I have a hard time imagining anyone taking Swiftwing Shift for just the bonus to Fly checks. Either you have two other shifting feats or you're just not going to take it.

Shifting feats in general seem like they'll just always be on in every combat, unless you're very low level, have very low Con, and/or are facing an unusually high number of encounters per day. Also, question, since shifts use the lowest duration, does that mean if I activate a 1 hour shift, and then half an hour later activate a 2 round shift, both of them wear off after 2 rounds, or is that only if I activate them both as part of the same shift? It's also not clear which benefits of shifting feats only function during a shift—the answer can't be "All of them" because that would make Rapid Shifting quite pointless.

[Milo v3]

Alphas, betas, omegas, alpha benefits,

Ugh.... why incorporate misconceptions *facedesk*

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ugh.... why incorporate misconceptions *facedesk*

That was mentioned above.

[Sayt]

The wording was pulled pretty much exactly from the Lycanthrope template which does not specify a polymorph spell either.

Hmm, looking at the Lycanthrope, Werewolf statblock from B1, it lists the ability as

SQ change shape (human, hybrid, and wolf; polymorph)

By RAW, no. I may end up looking at borrowing some wording from Dragon Style if necessary.

Dragon style dealt with increasing strength modifier and the non-stacking of ability bonuses, this is Power Attack damage. Which I think would apply, and from the sound of you did intend so? I'm just asking cause a 1:6 power attack ratio is...a lot.

Varsark don't enter hybrid form. They fully transform into a wolf, per the spell beast shape of whatever relevant level. This PrC is based a bit on 3.5's bear warrior like that. I'm glad you like it though.

Ahh, I see. Interesting. I guess I was still in werewolf mode thinking.

The discipline accesses are still subject to change, though remember anyone can gain access through Unorthodox Method or the (upcoming) martial tradition.

Chimeric Body Stance (and other maneuvers) restriction comes from me not wanting to deal with Kali builds and the fallout of that. If someone gains 4 additional sets of arms because they're in Chimeric Body Stance, they'd have the option of quad wielding greatswords. While that's fun and all, it doesn't fit the theme of the discipline at all and causes a lot of complaints.

Throw a line in the Chimeric Soul header paragraph reading "Claws, tentacles et cetera granted by this discipline are not prehensile and cannot be used to effectively wield weapons."?

Kraken's Grasp and other skill check maneuvers have a fair number of boosts available in the form of items and feats. For example, just taking Skill Focus (K. Nature) nets you a +6 by the time this rolls around. And I see you found the Knowledge Pendant too.

This is true, but I'm not entirely sold on "If you want to take this maneuver, you have to optimise for it to have a snowball's chance in hell", especially when the discipline seems light on skill replacers, compared to perhaps Scarlet Throne or Thrashing Dragon.

Lamia's sting doesn't do strength damage. It's a fort save or paralyze.

Does this go for the rest of the Sting Line?

I was trying to stay with the Unshackled theme. If you look at both that and the capstone, there's a thee later on in the class of "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED." The goal here was less of noping grapple and more noping casters dropping debuffs

Hmm, You still can't go through Walls, you can still be waves of exhaustioned, but I'll admit it does stop a fair few things. I think I understand a little better now.

All Wisdom based skills are class skills for a Silverblade Hunter

....I swear that wasn't there when I read it first, but it does solve it nicely.

Currently working on wording to make them proficient with the weapon of choice. The wonkiness comes from me wanting to avoid stupid stuff like dipping into the class and selling it for a stupid amount of money at level 1.

That seems entirely reasonable.

I think you misunderstand. It's one category lighter. So the Mithral Breastplate is treated as Light armor for all purposes, including proficiency. It's not treated as one category smaller.

Mithral already does this though? Does it stack, bringing heavy down to 'light' armour?

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

'Other limitations' is, well, kinda broad, and would seem to include proficiency. I'm not sure if this ability...does anything?

Well, hypothetically, he could take other weapon categories, i guess. Don't see any reason to lock him out of those. Heck, maybe he wants to pick up archery. But most people will be going for AWT if they have the book anyways.

Well, MWT wouldn't logically apply to, say, Mithral Firearms, Mithral Javelins, and bows firing Mithral-headed arrows, and therefore be covered under MWT?


Thanks for the prompt replies you guys, the playtest looks very cool!

[Vhaidara]

The Unshackled Rager can technically enter a lupine frenzy multiple times per combat, but I can't imagine why they would want to—as soon as the first one ends, they're fatigued, like, forever, and even if the combat lasts long enough for the fatigue to wear off, re-entering a frenzy doesn't give you any more temporary HP.

That verbage is a mix of standard and unchained Rage. The Temp HP thing came from unchained rage, so it inherited the limitations, but you're still able to go in and out if you for some reason need to.

Superior Rabid Bite doesn't replace the effect of Rabid Bite, so any time you hit with a bite attack, the target makes two saves, once of which is totally pointless.

Fixed

Feral Vitality seems quite strong to be available at such low levels, even with the feat tax. I'm surprised it doesn't have more prerequisites (not even Con 13?). The shapechanger subtype doesn't seem like much of a barrier. I'm not familiar with a lot of the non-core Pathfinder material—is fast healing normally this easy to get?

Precedent was a Bloodforge feat with type restrictions.

Extra Shifting should probably require you to have another shifting feat.

Good point on the idiot proofing

I have a hard time imagining anyone taking Swiftwing Shift for just the bonus to Fly checks. Either you have two other shifting feats or you're just not going to take it.

I mean, Shifting feats are generally meant to be taken as a group. And Swiftwing evolves into one of the strongest, netting a solid fly speed.

Shifting feats in general seem like they'll just always be on in every combat, unless you're very low level, have very low Con, and/or are facing an unusually high number of encounters per day. Also, question, since shifts use the lowest duration, does that mean if I activate a 1 hour shift, and then half an hour later activate a 2 round shift, both of them wear off after 2 rounds, or is that only if I activate them both as part of the same shift? It's also not clear which benefits of shifting feats only function during a shift—the answer can't be "All of them" because that would make Rapid Shifting quite pointless.

The point of Rapid Shifting is to preserve your swift, and ultimately to let you do it defensively.. The bolded is the correct interpretation.

Some of the shifting feats have the tag to allow people to enhance existing Shifting feats without adding more. For example, if someone just wanted flight and claws, they could take Swiftwing and Strongclaw, then Extra, Rapid, and a utility like Longstride or Beasthide to get their 5. I acknowledge that not all shifting feats are created equal, but they all still serve a purpose.

Mithral already does this though? Does it stack, bringing heavy down to 'light' armour?

'Other limitations' is, well, kinda broad, and would seem to include proficiency. I'm not sure if this ability...does anything?

IIRC, it doesn't work for proficiency, so if you wore mithral Full plate, you'd still take ACP to attack rolls.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

My only complaint with the Feral Vitality feat was that its possible for a Skinwalker to pick it up.

[Mehangel]

My only complaint with the Feral Vitality feat was that its possible for a Skinwalker to pick it up.

I actually like that skinwalkers can pick it. But on the topic of Feral Vitality, what if it too was a (shifting) feat? I could see it grant fast healing equal to the number of (shifting) feats you possess.