OOTS #1141 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

By "original pantheon" I take it you mean "original total list of gods from all four pantheons."

Beyond that, you yourself point out why what you're saying is irrelevant. There has never been anything created with as many colors as the Snarl which was designed to fight the Snarl. Since the Snarl's first rampage there has never been anything created in four colors. The same number of colors as the Snarl=a chance of winning. Thor didn't say anything about "more colors than ever before."

[Rrmcklin]

Ever since I started reading the strip, around 400, I have wanted Redcloak to be right: goblins deserve equal rights. When they raised the flag of Gobbotopia, I felt this even more strongly.

I love that QCD has been used as a plot element. Too cool.

I’m going to make some guesses.

The Dark One is the first God of the Goblin realm, but I bet he dies in a fight with the other Gods when he first starts to exert his power. Redcloak will then ascend to become the primary God of the Goblin realm. In order to keep everyone happy as Redcloak creates his new Pantheon, Elan will be made a founding God as well. He will be a compromise candidate. He did the least damage to Goblins while OOTS was in Azure city. Haley, as his partner (the two Chaotics would never do something so Lawful as to have a wedding ceremony), will also be made a divine being.

The OOTS will have to not just work with Redcloak in the here and now, but with Xykon as well. Xykon’s plans coming to fruition are good for Thor, OOTS and Redcloak. That will be hilarious when Roy has to fight off the attempts by Hel and Vampire Durkon (in another body), the Exarch and the others to kill Xykon. And Xykon can’t know WHY he is getting all the help, of course.

As soon as the Ceremony is performed, Xykon becomes superfluous. He does not want to go to the Planes. Once he realizes he has been duped, I’m not sure if he gets angry and strikes out at all those who betrayed him, or if he just exits stage right and seeks to keep on “living” and being an awesome undead. I predict he is made a God in the Goblin Pantheon where he is living a divine life in the Chaotic Evil corner of the Goblinoid Realm. He will have some quote about it being better to serve in Hell…

The story has been very clear that Redcloak isn't right. He's so high on sunk-cost fallacy and not wanting to think all the dead goblinoids are his fault, he doesn't even care about real, flesh and blood goblinoids anymore.

I'm sure by the end of this the goblinoids will have a better lot in life, but the injustices they face are real and I don't see this as the kind of story that won't address them, but Redcloak literally being deified would be a terrible, terrible turn of events that would go against so much that Rich has actually written him as.

And no matter how much people may want it, Xykon is never just going to go away and become inconsequential.

[Peelee]

Did you give up on the quatloo tracking thread idea?

Actually, I had a template all laid out and was ready to pull the trigger last week, but was advised it may be more appropriate for the Message Board Games section, and I never post or lurk in there.

Something that I haven't seen mentioned is...

... wasn't the original pantheon four color?

And the original world, also four color?

True, the original world wasn't made specifically to be a prison for an entity that didn't exist yet, but even so, this seems more like a "we are finally back at the starting line" rather than "we actually have a chance of winning."

A sucker punch that knocks you out of the fight doesnt mean you can't still win when you get back in.

[DaggerPen]

And just like that, redemption for Redcloak - which I honestly thought would never happen after [SOD spoilers] - is looking surprisingly likely. This should be interesting.

[Crisis21]

I don't think that is a magical aura- it seems like all fiends, from imps to archfiends, be them demons, daemons or fiends, have black as a "defining colour"- each has an aura of its own, like we see for IFCC, but they always have "black" as the defining (quiddity?) colour, as we see from their speech bubbles. It does not relate to magic, but something which is essential to them being fiends, which hints on it being their "quiddity".

More than that, as black is, in fact, the lack of colour/light, it makes sense that they have no seen aura. Fiends are not divine beings- they are the lack of divinity. They don't radiate psychically charged theosophical particles, they absorb them. They are the negativity for the gods' divinity, so them having black, that is, the lack of colour, as their "quiddity" makes a lot of damn sense, the way I see it. I don't expect it to be talked about in the strips, but for now, those are my two cents on the subject.

Black speech bubbles are more an indication that the speaker is either incredibly Evil or tied to the negative energy plane (or both) rather than some manner of Divine quiddity.

Actually the 5 main fiends all have had distinct magical auras: Black, red, yellow, orange, and purple. Though I still wouldn't put much thought into the speech balloons since various creatures have been shown with differently coloured ones (elementals, elemental outsiders, undead, constructs, dragons, half-dragons, giants, fey, etc.)

Oops, my bad.

I totally saw a new fourth color coming, but I was absolutely CERTAIN it was going to be Banjo.

Not gonna lie, I cannot fathom why anyone would think that would be a good development for this story.

And that the Dark One's aura is purple (or is it violet?) has been obvious for awhile; we just didn't know that had any actual significance until now.

Huh... I wonder if Thor being against Banjo joining the Northern Gods had anything to do with the Dark One having a different color quiddity...

Very Minor Start or Darkness spoiler:

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Interesting that, in Redcloak's telling of the story of creation, the Dark One, and the Snarl, Thor is the token deity for the "let's crush this upstart!" reaction to the Dark One's apotheosis and has to be talked into letting him live and be his own pantheon. I like that he's come around on the subject (even if it is only because he realized the Dark One is useful).

New crack theory: This isn't actually Thor talking to Durkon and Minrah... It's Loki in disguise.

To this day I still think that no even implying that Loki and Zeus totally boned is American Gods' greatest failure.

Your meme conveniently forgets that Hel is half-undead (no, seriously) and that Loki was the mother in one of those instances.

[Knaight]

They're primary colors for human visual range. Deific visual range is, I'd bet, different.

More than that the "colors" aren't necessarily literally colors per-se. They're representations of divine quiddities, and there's no particular reason to assume that the quiddities will mix the way colors do.

There are two commonly used "sets" of primary colours, and the remaining three pantheons don't fit either. They are red/green/blue (would have fit very well if the Eastern and Northern pantheons had each other's colours) and cyan/magenta/yellow (of which only the Northern pantheon is a perfect match, though the Twelve Gods could very well be considered cyan, as they're a very light shade of blue).

Red, blue, yellow is another commonly used set, just in different contests. RGB shows up a lot for screen displays, CMY shows up in color printing and in definitions of colors based on additive illumination, and red, blue, and yellow show up as "the" primary colors usually taught first, with an emphasis on paint mixing.

[Peelee]

New crack theory: This isn't actually Thor talking to Durkon and Minrah... It's Loki in disguise.

You're a few threads too late for that to be new.

[Kish]

New crack theory: This isn't actually Thor talking to Durkon and Minrah... It's Loki in disguise.

It's not new. It's as old as Thor showing up in this scene, though I don't know offhand who proposed it first.

(This is not, most definitely not, an endorsement.)

[Draconi Redfir]

Oooooh!

But the gods of different pantheons can directly communicate with each other, right?
How else has The Dark One got his briefings from Rat, Loki and Tiamat?

So why are they not planning together with The Dark One on how to strengthen the world... or have they already planned it all through, but never bothered to tell the clerics below? Or is Thor the one guy with the (brilliant?) plan, but the other gods are sceptical and somehow Thor doesn't have The Dark One's number?

Really curious how this works out.

TDO may be unwilling to talk to the more good-aligned gods of other pantheons. They were the ones who created his people as XP fodder, and they were the ones who allowed it to happen. The evil-aligned gods were probably only "allies" insomuch that they supported him becoming a god and provided him with information he didn't know before. It'd probably be unlikely to see Dark One and Rat chumming together playing chess or whatnot.

What Durkon CAN do however is seek out Redcloak and talk to him, as one mortal is much more likely to listen to another, with less destructive consequences. And who would the Dark One listen to if not his high priest?

[Crisis21]

It's not new. It's as old as Thor showing up in this scene, though I don't know offhand who proposed it first.

(This is not, most definitely not, an endorsement.)

You're a few threads too late for that to be new.

Clearly I am late to the bandwagon.

[jwhouk]

So, this may have already been covered (I didn't' read the whole thread)...

But does anyone but me think that the green aura from Roy's sword may be related to the defunct green aura of the lost Eastern Pantheon? I kinda feel that that's too much of a coincidence.

I think that Roy contains some of the lost energy through his sword somehow. Perhaps its an artifact from the first world that survived the destruction and has passed from world to world, unknown to even the Gods.

My quataloos are on that energy indeed being part of Olympus, and that it will be the coup de grace that eliminates the Snarl.

I think I was the third or fourth post to toss in a similar idea earlier in the thread. As you say, a bit of a reach ... but worth a try.

Yeah, that.

[Cestes]

This certainly makes things interesting!

[Fitzclowningham]

{Scrubbed}

I don't know if you noticed, but a big theme of OotS has been that adventurers killing monsters solely because of their species/race/etc. is wrong. Rich has also spent a lot of time (especially in SOD) showing events from goblin perspectives and illustrating the injustice of their situation and of others' perception of them. They are as much a part of the world as humans are, and have as much claim to save it, or to want to save it.

If somehow you've been here since 2007 and never noticed any of this, then...never mind.

[DomaDoma]

And the original world, also four color?

True, the original world wasn't made specifically to be a prison for an entity that didn't exist yet, but even so, this seems more like a "we are finally back at the starting line" rather than "we actually have a chance of winning."

The original world was also built on the foundation of inconsistency that WAS the Snarl. Key point.

[Oxenstierna]

So what are the latest theories for why the MiTD can’t see the gates? Created entirely by arcane magic with no connection to the gods or with the divine quiddity? A creation of the goblin god - again separate from the colors of the snarl? A creature entirely of actual darkness - that absorbs the light quiddity (of any wavelength), and so is somehow no color at all? Or just back to not perceiving the gates as gates for a bit of a joke...

[hroþila]

So what are the latest theories for why the MiTD can’t see the gates? Created entirely by arcane magic with no connection to the gods or with the divine quiddity? A creation of the goblin god - again separate from the colors of the snarl? A creature entirely of actual darkness - that absorbs the light quiddity (of any wavelength), and so is somehow no color at all? Or just back to not perceiving the gates as gates for a bit of a joke...

Is the consensus that the MiTD can't actually see the gates? I always thought he could see them just fine but was too dumb/apathetic to know they're gates or to follow Xykon and Redcloak's conversations properly. When Xykon pointed at the gate, the MiTD said "Huh. I never noticed that before", which doesn't suggest to me that he couldn't see it (although I guess it is not impossible that he thought Xykon was showing him something else, because he is that dumb). And regardless, he did say the surrounding magical darkness made it hard for him to see stuff.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So, what this means, I think, is that new Gods of a different color can come into being. The Dark One isn't necessarily the only option for a four-color scheme. There are other colors, which are not purple, that could potentially happen... possibly more cooperative ones.

I wouldn't count the goblins, or their good, as indispensable yet.

EDIT: Well, I might as well keep this typo up as a reminder to myself of my own imperfection. Let all who attempt to achieve perfection be warned of the dangers of the insidious auto-correct!

[Rrmcklin]

So, what this means, I think, is that new Gods of a different color can come into being. The Dark One isn't necessarily the only option for a four-color scheme. There are other colors, which are not purple, that could potentially happen... possibly more cooperative ones.

I wouldn't count the goblins, or their good, as indispensable yet.

New gods don't just show up willy nilly, and apparently when they do they share the same essence as one of the already existing pantheons.

Thor says the Dark One is the first thing like this; that most certainly is indispensable until we're given an actual reason not to think so.

[Crisis21]

So, what this means, I think, is that new Gods of a different color can come into being. The Dark One isn't necessarily the only option for a four-color scheme. There are other colors, which are not purple, that could potentially happen... possibly more cooperative ones.

I wouldn't count the goblins, or their good, as indispensable yet.

Their good? What about their good?

[Ash_Gazn]

If there's a setup for a CMYK joke, then isn't the IFCC gearing up to replace xykon in the ritual with epic V?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Their good? What about their good?

I am defeated. Here is my Grammar Nazi badge. You've earned it.

-Nihhus leaves the forum in shame-

[pikachu314]

I logged in in I don't know how many years to tell you I am giddy with excitement!!! <3
The Dark One is the key to stopping the Snarl!!!
This arc has been epic reveal after epic reveal! Thanks Giant! <3

[Grey Watcher]

New crack theory: This isn't actually Thor talking to Durkon and Minrah... It's Loki in disguise.

Heh, after seeing the movie Thor: The Dark World, my friends and I had a running gag of "<person/object> is Loki in disguise," because of how many scenes end with a reveal that this or that character was Loki in disguise, up to and including "Loki is Loki in disguise."

[Crisis21]

I am defeated. Here is my Grammar Nazi badge. You've earned it.

-Nihhus leaves the forum in shame-

Ooooo, it sparkles!

Heh, after seeing the movie Thor: The Dark World, my friends and I had a running gag of "<person/object> is Loki in disguise," because of how many scenes end with a reveal that this or that character was Loki in disguise, up to and including "Loki is Loki in disguise."

No, no, Loki is Thor in disguise.

[Phantom Thief]

So my first thought is, wasnt Loki Red during the Godsmoot? Why would that be if the Northern gods are Yellow?

My second thought is, I guess the Sapphire guard was right when they theorized that mortals were less vulnerable to the Snarl than the Gods. They are made of 3 colors vs 1, so they are closer to the Snarl in "realness".

My third thought is, if that rationale is true for the Snarl, then arent mortals ALSO more powerful than the Gods? So why cant they cut through them like butter?

My fourth thought is, what is Redcloak made of? Are goblins made of Purple? Does the Dark One have any role in creating new goblin souls? Or does color only come from what Gods weaved the world originally?

[Anitar]

So, what this means, I think, is that new Gods of a different color can come into being. The Dark One isn't necessarily the only option for a four-color scheme. There are other colors, which are not purple, that could potentially happen... possibly more cooperative ones.

I wouldn't count the goblins, or their good, as indispensable yet.

EDIT: Well, I might as well keep this typo up as a reminder to myself of my own imperfection. Let all who attempt to achieve perfection be warned of the dangers of the insidious auto-correct!

Yes, it could potentially happen again. But so far, it's only happened once across a million worlds or so. I wouldn't hold my breath for the emergence of a sixth quiddity anytime soon.

[Phantom Thief]

I don't know if you noticed, but a big theme of OotS has been that adventurers killing monsters solely because of their species/race/etc. is wrong. Rich has also spent a lot of time (especially in SOD) showing events from goblin perspectives and illustrating the injustice of their situation and of others' perception of them. They are as much a part of the world as humans are, and have as much claim to save it, or to want to save it.

If somehow you've been here since 2007 and never noticed any of this, then...never mind.

He kind of does that, but also there are examples of things like Vampires which are exactly as evil as they seem to be, and wights which are exactly as mindless killing machines as they seem to be, and Orcs which are all as dumb as they are supposed to be(except the one which is half not orc). So thats not as consistent as a theme as you might expect. Species attrivutes are actually fairly accurate in OotSVerse. The theme seems to be more "solving your problems with violence might seem like the easiest solution, but actually isnt"

Also, all the goblins are still generally evil, even if theyre relatable. Tsukiko was humanized because she wanted love, but she was still cruel and heartless. Redcloak cares about his fellow goblins, but still is down with slavery and torture and other generally evil things. Just because you add some complexity to evil characters it doesnt make them not evil anymore

[Rrmcklin]

He kind of does that, but also there are examples of things like Vampires which are exactly as evil as they seem to be, and wights which are exactly as mindless killing machines as they seem to be, and Orcs which are all as dumb as they are supposed to be(except the one which is half not orc). So thats not as consistent as a theme as you might expect. The theme seems to be more "solving your problems with violence might seem like the easiest solution, but actually isnt"

Also, all the goblins are still generally evil, even if theyre relatable. Tsukiko was humanized because she wanted love, but she was still cruel and heartless. Redcloak cares about his fellow goblins, but still is down with slavery and torture and other generally evil things. Just because you add some complexity to evil characters it doesnt make them not evil anymore

Some of those are sentient, living creatures raised in cultures and experiences, the others are supernatural creatures literally powered by evil. I'm still confused why some people have issues with treating different things differently.

That fiends like Sabine, Quarr, and the IFCC are literally made of evil and love it, doesn't somehow invalidate the point made with the goblins.

[Crisis21]

So my first thought is, wasnt Loki Red during the Godsmoot? Why would that be if the Northern gods are Yellow?

My second thought is, I guess the Sapphire guard was right when they theorized that mortals were less vulnerable to the Snarl than the Gods. They are made of 3 colors vs 1, so they are closer to the Snarl in "realness".

My third thought is, if that rationale is true for the Snarl, then arent mortals ALSO more powerful than the Gods? So why cant they cut through them like butter?

My fourth thought is, what is Redcloak made of? Are goblins made of Purple? Does the Dark One have any role in creating new goblin souls? Or does color only come from what Gods weaved the world originally?

First thought response: Loki's divine aura was yellow at the godsmoot, same as the rest of his pantheon. You may be thinking of his red eyes.

Second thought response: Indeed.

Third thought response: Mortals may be more 'real', but they also lack the same scale that the gods have. An ant may be more real than a multi-million big screen blockbuster, but that doesn't mean it has more influence on human behavior.

Fourth thought response: Redcloak is made of the same stuff as any other mortal creature: flesh and blood and bone.
Maybe the Dark One has a hand in creating new goblin souls, maybe he doesn't. I don't think we've heard one way or the other aside from the fact that he was given dominion over the goblinoid races (and given that Hel has a similar set-up but likely doesn't have a hand in creating dwarven souls, I doubt the Dark One alone creates goblin souls).
Divine color refers to the base essence (quiddity) of the gods (if I'm interpreting the latest comic correctly). All of the Northern gods have the same quiddity and thus all have yellow auras, and ditto for the Southern (blue), Western (red), and the late Eastern (green) gods. The fact that the Dark One ascended to a pantheon of one with a purple aura means that his quiddity is inherently different from any and all other gods that have come before him.

[The MunchKING]

I think this is the first online appearance of the Dark One (what he looks like, that is), so I guess Start of Darkness is definitely keeping Rich in bandwidth payments..

Do you count Jirax describing seeing him to Redcloak?

They can actually.

Yeah I thought about that when I posted. Notice how that interaction went down though. Tiger showed up to run them out of the South, and Thor and Odin immediately backed down and walked away. No serious inter-pantheon interaction, that would be comparable to long-term negotiations with the Dark One.

More like "Who I want", amiright??

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I'm somewhat on the fence on that 'Enchanted to eat Redcloak' thing. I haven't read the book and I'm not disputing that it happened, but unless it was an Epic Enchantment (I'd be surprised if Xykon of all people has an Epic Enchantment when pretty much every single thing he does is necromantic or highly offensive) I'd expect a cleric capable of casting 9th level spells to be able to do something about it.

Hel, even if Redcloak can't do anything about it I wouldn't be surprised if MitD could.

If it wasn't Epic it would have worn off by now. Sometimes you just have to accept some loose stuff for foreshadowing/Chekov's guns.