OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[ddn2004]

That's a shocker. She's gone insane.

[wilphe]

She's acting on incomplete information.

[BaronOfHell]

So Serini definitely doesn't know about the Godsmoot or RedCloak's plan.
Though it surprises me, if that is her attitude, why even bothering defending the gates when the greater risk is the heroes who have only been helped by the gates defenses stalling Xykon?

[RMS Oceanic]

That's a shocker. She's gone insane.

I don't think so? She's clearly going after the Order as well under the same premise. We can disagree with her premise, given how we know her incomplete view, but it's pretty rational.

[Debatra]

So Serini definitely doesn't know about the Godsmoot or RedCloak's plan.
Though it surprises me, if that is her attitude, why even bothering defending the gates when the greater risk is the heroes who have only been helped by the gates defenses stalling Xykon?

Well the best-case scenario is still "nobody finds the last gate, ever".

[Aquillion]

That's a shocker. She's gone insane.

Has she, though?

To a certain extent she's not wrong - having the gate destroyed would be a worst-case scenario, significantly worse than anything Xykon or the Dark One is likely to dish out (at least immediately.)

On top of this, while people might say she doesn't know about the gods - remember, the gods were considering destroying the world because the gate might be destroyed, not because of Xykon's plans. So even if she knows about them, ending the conflict by letting Xykon or the Dark One take the gate would make sense to her.

The big problem I see in her plans is that if the ritual actually gave Xykon control of the gate, that would make it very likely that he'd eventually destroy or open it - either because he got bored, or as a last-ditch effort when things don't go his way. He's far more likely to destroy the world in a fit of pique than the heroes are, and getting control over the gate would put him in a position to easily do so.

Even if she knows what the ritual actually does somehow, it doesn't change things much. The Dark One could easily fail to get a deal he likes and decide to destroy the other gods, incorrectly believing that he can either maintain this world himself or make a new one in the future. Either way, giving anyone control over the gate greatly increases the risk of catastrophic outcomes in the long term.

[Ivrytwr]

"Auntie" is going to set it right. Logic is broken, but she may be a bit askew too.
Thanks Giant!

[HeeJay]

Outstanding writing!

She's a good and decent person, but because she's missing pieces of information, she'll now become a dangerous antagonist.

[EmperorSarda]

So... biggest thing that will deter Serini is that the Order is not hiding behind some snow bank. Maybe she has a scrying item that shows her that the Order crossed into the true tunnel. But we have not seen any such thing.

Even so, I think Serini is going to burst onto the scene right before Xykon leaves the door.

[Ghosty]

I don't think so? She's clearly going after the Order as well under the same premise. We can disagree with her premise, given how we know her incomplete view, but it's pretty rational.

Completely blowing off the Paladins' point that, "We only tried to blow up our Gate because we knew we had spares, and that's obviously not the case now...," doesn't strike me as rational.

We also don't know when this interlude between Serini and the Paladins is taking place, relative to the exact timing of the Order's arrival, the failed negotiation with RedCloak, the chase, and the Order disabling the main teleport trap. But disabling the teleport trap strikes me as something: 1) incredibly important to Serini's defenses, far more than just another party plumbing through Monster Hollow, and therefore 2) she has a way of knowing quickly/instantly if it's been done. If it has been done, she needs to leave the Paladins and deal with it. Right. Now.

[dancrilis]

Good for Serini - I believe that I once mentioned that the world might be better off just giving Xykon a gate, nice to see the viewpoint presented in comic.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's a shocker. She's gone insane.

Nope. Her logic is pretty sound based on the following assumption: existing, with a complete {censored} ruling the world (before someone topples him, which she knows is possible given the existence of adventurers) beats not existing. There are a variety of RL parallels that I'll not introduce due to forum rules but suffice to say that the choices, as she sees it, are not binary: there is a third, fourth, or even fifth option. (We could toss in the old 'where there's life there's hope' cliche, but I'm not sure that she thinks along those lines).

Granted, the observation that she has incomplete information, being a character in the story rather than a reader of the story, is true but irrelevant as regards her sanity and motivations.

Omniscience is granted to nobody in the OoTSverse, not even various deities. Holding Serini to that standard seems both unfair and impractical.

She's a good and decent person, but because she's missing pieces of information, she'll now become a dangerous antagonist.

Just like the Order; in their case the danger to the world began because Elan is a moron. (Dorukan's gate). Serini is no moron.

Whether or not she knows about The Plan (Reddy and Xykon) and its inner workings remains unclear, but I suspect that she does not. If she knew about The Plan, I suspect she'd have a different implementation of "keep the world from blowing up" in place.

Lastly: she's an epic level rogue, or at least we think she is. I recall something from Xykon to V about power and how V's boost was shackled to "your mid level ass" - while I am not sure if levels 13-16 are 'mid level' they are a far cry from epic.

[Taevyr]

Well, her logic is at the very least correct in the "Xykon winning>All gates are destroyed" sense.

Going straight from that to "I need to allow Xykon to win", rather than, I don't know, helping the parties involved get rid of Xykon so the last gate never needs to be threatened in the first place, does imply more than a bit of bias. And likely a strong case of PXSD.

A very well-done character, Giant. Looking forward to her ambushing the order.

[The Pilgrim]

And Serini votes for Safety over Freedom.

Rather unexpected on a Chaotic character, but people tend to go that way as they grew older.

[RMS Oceanic]

Completely blowing off the Paladins' point that, "We only tried to blow up our Gate because we knew we had spares, and that's obviously not the case now...," doesn't strike me as rational.

She's seen a pattern of behaviour from them (never mind that technically it was only the one gate the Paladins consciously chose to destroy), and from her perspective she sees no reason for that behaviour to change just because they say they really mean it this time.

[Schroeswald]

I don’t think that Serini knows what the Plan is but she does know that Redcloak has a goal of fixing the situation of the monster races, and she is sympathetic so I think she might have a role in that resolution.

[Peelee]

Well the best-case scenario is still "nobody finds the last gate, ever".

Indeed.

"Auntie" is going to set it right. Logic is broken, but she may be a bit askew too.
Thanks Giant!

Logic seems perfectly sound to me. Not nice, or best case scenario, but sound.

[Ninja Dragon]

Adventurers, beware.

There's an epic rogue on the loose.

And you're walking in her dungeon, whose traps she had half a century to set up.

[Daibhid C]

Completely blowing off the Paladins' point that, "We only tried to blow up our Gate because we knew we had spares, and that's obviously not the case now...," doesn't strike me as rational.

I suspect she feels that "Between us and the Order of the Strick, this is the only Gate left, so obviously neither of us will destroy this one" isn't the killer argument Lien thinks.

[danielxcutter]

I... I can't see how any good can come of this.

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round! And from what I've seen of her, I don't think she's going to listen to the Order at all. Both Durkon and Roy don't want the Gate to be destroyed, even if they don't agree on what to do, but I'm not sure if that'd matter to her.

...Well, I guess Elan knows Neutralize Poison?

[Ghosty]

Of course Serini may be bluffing to hide exactly what she knows about Soon's Gate's destruction. But to me, the dialogue in Panel 2 and 3 suggest she really doesn't know what happened inside of the throne room, but rather she---as suggested before here in previous threads by a few of you---learned how the Gate blew up via scrying O-Chul's debriefing with Hinjo.

O-Chul didn't have any choices at all to destroy the Gate or not. Being Paralyzed by a Lich'll do that.

So if she really didn't know how the Gate got blown up, then perhaps she doesn't know exactly how Girard's Gate went boom? Or Dorukan's. (Which'll make Elan sleep a little easier.) Point is, there may be a lot less that Serini's knows than she realizes, or that we initially thought she might've known.

[Fyraltari]

Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.

So... biggest thing that will deter Serini is that the Order is not hiding behind some snow bank. Maybe she has a scrying item that shows her that the Order crossed into the true tunnel. But we have not seen any such thing.

I wonder what her goggles are for...

[Jan Mattys]

The thing I find most interesting in this strip is that Serini actually cares about other creatures and not just PC races.

She even points out that under Xykon's rule some will live better indeed, and she seems to be ok with the thought after all.

[Peelee]

O-Chul didn't have any choices at all to destroy the Gate or not. Being Paralyzed by a Lich'll do that.

O-Chul did make the choice to destroy the Gate. He even openly admitted that to Hinjo. As you note, he didn't do it solely because Xykon paralyzed him, but he absolutely 100% would have. That holds whether she saw the throne room or not, do it doesn't give us any clarity Into what exactly she knows.

[arimareiji]

We also don't know when this interlude between Serini and the Paladins is taking place, relative to the exact timing of the Order's arrival, the failed negotiation with RedCloak, the chase, and the Order disabling the main teleport trap. But disabling the teleport trap strikes me as something: 1) incredibly important to Serini's defenses, far more than just another party plumbing through Monster Hollow, and therefore 2) she has a way of knowing quickly/instantly if it's been done. If it has been done, she needs to leave the Paladins and deal with it. Right. Now.

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Unless the heroes have a solid plan for
~ destroying it (in this case, a Very Bad Idea™),
~ concealing it (it already is concealed, better than the Order can do),
~ or moving it (that's RC's plan, and he refuses to take Durkon's word for why it's a VBI)...
what the heck do they think getting there first will accomplish? Especially given that the genre-savvy (or those who have already been there, done that, like the order) can surmise the Bad Guys™ may very well be planning for just that to happen so they can seize it.

Which makes Serini a very, very long way from "insane" to not blindly trust them given the extent of what she knows.

[dancrilis]

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round! And from what I've seen of her, I don't think she's going to listen to the Order at all. Both Durkon and Roy don't want the Gate to be destroyed, even if they don't agree on what to do, but I'm not sure if that'd matter to her.

She doesn't seem interested in killing people, and if she is 'far, far too strong for the Order' then they might as well give up of facing Xykon(and company) unless they plan to reuse the 'destroy the gate' plan.

[Peelee]

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Unless the heroes have a solid plan for
~ destroying it (in this case, a Very Bad Idea™),
~ concealing it (it already is concealed, better than the Order can do),
~ or moving it (that's RC's plan, and he refuses to take Durkon's word for why it's a VBI)...
what the heck do they think getting there first will accomplish?

Option 4 - defending it.

[Lady Corvus]

Wow, Xykon is really good at making people underestimate him. It's probably the scariest thing about him.

I have a question though: If she thinks she can kidnap the whole Order and mindwipe them, why hasn't she done the same to say, Redcloak? Alone he can't be as dangerous as the Order and that'd actually ruin Xykon's plan.

[danielxcutter]

She doesn't seem interested in killing people, and if she is 'far, far too strong for the Order' then they might as well give up of facing Xykon(and company) unless they plan to reuse the 'destroy the gate' plan.

Personally I think that Xykon is too strong for the Order and there's no chance without ridiculous amounts of author fiat(granted, this is a comic and not an actual game), or my personal headcanon of "Roy bullrushes him through the Gate and the Snarl eats him".

Also I know that Serini probably won't try to kill them, but my point is that an epic level Rogue could probably KO Vaarsuvius with just one crossbow bolt if she got a Sneak Attack in, and quite possibly Elan and Haley as well. And that's before magic items and poison.