Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Chronos]

On Elan's entry, strictly speaking, we know that he has 15 ranks in some Perform skill to use Song of Freedom, but it isn't necessarily in Strings. You don't need to use the form of performance you have ranks in to use a bardic music ability.

Realistically, of course, it probably doesn't matter, because he probably has both Strings and Singing maxed out (though we don't have proof of that).

And on the topic of Tarquin's arrow-catching, "behaved suboptimally" isn't a point against the epic-level explanation, because it applies equally to all explanations. No proposed explanation requires him to grab the arrows; no matter how it is that it's possible for him to do that, he had to choose to grab them (causing his fall from the airship). Thus, the fact that he made a suboptimal decision carries no weight whatsoever in determining how he did it.

[Hecuba]

And on the topic of Tarquin's arrow-catching, "behaved suboptimally" isn't a point against the epic-level explanation, because it applies equally to all explanations. No proposed explanation requires him to grab the arrows; no matter how it is that it's possible for him to do that, he had to choose to grab them (causing his fall from the airship). Thus, the fact that he made a suboptimal decision carries no weight whatsoever in determining how he did it.

Oy vey, we're here again.
Well, let's get to it.

To start off: I agree the camp that says ID is probably the best explanation. Low epic seems appropriate for Tarquin for me - Holy Word tells us we're at least within a few levels, and the fact that the Vector Legion forced the OOTS to flee despite being at a 3 to 5 disadvantage seems to back this up. This doesn't seem like enough (in and of itself) to definitively peg his level in this thread, but it also means that I don't generally see another explanation that requires him to be epic (like ID) as requiring extraordinary proof. (There is, at minimum, a significant number of other participants who disagree with me on that point).

That said, ID also has rules issues. In the last round of discussion on this, if memory serves, that point at least caused me to waver.
Specifically, in addition to Tarquin not having a reason to catch arrows with Infinite Deflection in that situation, it also isn't clear that ID would give him the ability to do so. ID and Snatch Arrows both expand the options available from Deflect Arrows, but there isn't any actual indication that the two can be used together.

[Crusher]

Oy vey, we're here again.
Well, let's get to it.

To start off: I agree the camp that says ID is probably the best explanation. Low epic seems appropriate for Tarquin for me - Holy Word tells us we're at least within a few levels, and the fact that the Vector Legion forced the OOTS to flee despite being at a 3 to 5 disadvantage seems to back this up. This doesn't seem like enough (in and of itself) to definitively peg his level in this thread, but it also means that I don't generally see another explanation that requires him to be epic (like ID) as requiring extraordinary proof. (There is, at minimum, a significant number of other participants who disagree with me on that point).

That said, ID also has rules issues. In the last round of discussion on this, if memory serves, that point at least caused me to waver.
Specifically, in addition to Tarquin not having a reason to catch arrows with Infinite Deflection in that situation, it also isn't clear that ID would give him the ability to do so. ID and Snatch Arrows both expand the options available from Deflect Arrows, but there isn't any actual indication that the two can be used together.

Indeed. I hate myself for even contributing to this, but it could also be argued that the Gloves *require* grabbing the arrows.

Anyway, the point remains that its a tangled snare which can be reasonably interpreted a lot of different ways pointing to different optimal solutions. More data is required and I'm not at all sure we'll ever get it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Anyway, the point remains that its a tangled snare which can be reasonably interpreted a lot of different ways pointing to different optimal solutions. More data is required and I'm not at all sure we'll ever get it.

I'd go so far as to say we almost certainly won't.

But we're not [yet?] in the business of actually recreating the OOTS characters as NPCs to populate a campaign setting (though that'd be a nice project for after the comic ends). That would require a lot more extrapolation and guesswork than we're willing to do. Our goal remains the more modest cataloging of what we know.

[Dark Matter]

Aren't mushrooms considered plants? So wouldn't Red Cloak's ability to turn mushrooms/fungi into Xykon's soul thing require a high Knowledge (Nature)? Actually I suspect that's where his "Chemistry" knowledge comes from.

[Crusher]

We'll see if she sticks around long enough to be worth noting, but it at least initially appears that Oona is a Beastmaster and 4th level or higher (for 2 animal companions).

[Necris Omega]

Just a minor point on Tarquin -

Shouldn't that dagger be noted as lost/removed from the list? ... granted, he probably has a dagger for every day of the month, but the dagger depicted ends up un-pleather'ed and in the hands of our favorite stabby Halfling.

[Quartz]

We'll see if she sticks around long enough to be worth noting, but it at least initially appears that Oona is a Beastmaster and 4th level or higher (for 2 animal companions).

Seventh level or higher if she's propositioning MitD to be her third (at least) companion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Kurald,

Next time you are doing an update, you may want to update MitD's link to the new thread

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Aren't mushrooms considered plants? So wouldn't Red Cloak's ability to turn mushrooms/fungi into Xykon's soul thing require a high Knowledge (Nature)? Actually I suspect that's where his "Chemistry" knowledge comes from.

Absolutely not. Fungus and Plant are entirely different kingdoms. They are as separate as animals and plants. That said, I'm pretty sure that Know (nature) covers them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Absolutely not. Fungus and Plant are entirely different kingdoms. They are as separate as animals and plants.

In fact, I believe these days fungi are considered closer to animals than they are to plants (as in, they branched off later than their protogroup branched off of the plants branch). This chart suggests that fungi and animals are closer to slime molds than they are to plants.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

That's unexpectedly cool. Today I learned.

[Vinyadan]

I think that fungi have animal cells for some things, and plant cells for others (or, to be more precise, animal-like and plant-like), but I really don't remember the details right now.

[zimmerwald1915]

Absolutely not. Fungus and Plant are entirely different kingdoms. They are as separate as animals and plants. That said, I'm pretty sure that Know (nature) covers them.

Are you quite sure Dark Matter wasn't talking about the monster type? Because, taxonomically incorrect though it might be, fungoid creatures are typically considered Plants (while actual fungi are probably considered Objects).

[Dark Matter]

Fungus:
Type: Plant

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm

Which means RC needed Knowledge(Nature) to make Xykon's item, which also implies that his "Knowledge: Chemistry" is actually "Knowledge(Nature(Including Chemistry))" or something like that.

Note also that he spent a LOT of time in that swamp back in SOD where Knowledge:Nature would probably be highly useful.

[Peelee]

Are you quite sure Dark Matter wasn't talking about the monster type?

I was not. Also, good call, you're totally right.

[Mx56]

Quick question re: Durkon and Gregula, if Durkon's wisdom is 17-23, shouldn't Greg's be 19-25 (SRD: a vampire has the base creature's wisdom +2)? Just seems like a bit of an odd approach when similar thing done for Str and Dex, sure there's some reason it is the way it is that I've missed.

(Similarly, if Durkon's Charisma is <10, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that Greg's is <14?)

[Crusher]

Seventh level or higher if she's propositioning MitD to be her third (at least) companion.

Well, she might not actually be 7th level yet, merely expecting to be 7th level by the time MitD would agree to such a deal. Of course, she's probably a good bit higher than 4th level to have faced off against a pair of high-ish level paladins and won/lived, but we don't know that for sure yet.

[Quartz]

Should we update Xykon's level to 22+ because if he were only level 21 he could be controlled if Redcloak were to roll 22+ on his Command Undead check?

And in 830 Tsukiko is noted as having a ring which protects her against draining touch attacks (and maybe other undead effects).

[John Cribati]

The ring was taken from her. Can we assume Redcloak still has it?

[Quartz]

The ring was taken from her. Can we assume Redcloak still has it?

Yes - his instructions to the undead were to give it to him.

And everything else in her possession, we can assume. But since she's listed at her peak, immediately before her demise, and not level-drained to oblivion, she should be listed with it.

[Ruck]

Should we update Xykon's level to 22+ because if he were only level 21 he could be controlled if Redcloak were to roll 22+ on his Command Undead check?

And in 830 Tsukiko is noted as having a ring which protects her against draining touch attacks (and maybe other undead effects).

Your link is broken.

[Quartz]

Your link is broken.

Fixed, thank you.

[Thanatos95]

Xykon is listed as having an unknown crafting feat, while Redcloak has CWI listed due to the making of xykon's phylactery. Under 3.5 rules a lich has to make their own phylactery and the lich template lists CWI as one of the requirements. Shouldn't the CWI feat be moved to Xykon as there is more evidence that he has it rather than redcloak?

I know Redcloak helped in Start of Darkness, but that help was probably his knowledge and spellcasting ability.

[Quartz]

Xykon is listed as having an unknown crafting feat, while Redcloak has CWI listed due to the making of xykon's phylactery.

Wouldn't it be sneaky if Redcloak had his own phylactery? Lichdom doesn't take effect until you die the first time.

[Vendanna]

Wouldn't it be sneaky if Redcloak had his own phylactery? Lichdom doesn't take effect until you die the first time.

But can two characters use the same item as phylactery? Oo I guess not because it sounds so silly.

[Peelee]

Wouldn't it be sneaky if Redcloak had his own phylactery? Lichdom doesn't take effect until you die the first time.

Source?

Wheeeeeeeee!

[Vinyadan]

Wouldn't that be embarrassing, to find yourself with your boss in what he thought was his soul's private apartment.

[Darth V]

In fact, I believe these days fungi are considered closer to animals than they are to plants (as in, they branched off later than their protogroup branched off of the plants branch). This chart suggests that fungi and animals are closer to slime molds than they are to plants.

Grey Wolf

HA! Choke on this, vegetarians!

*runs for cover*

[Thanatos95]

Wouldn't it be sneaky if Redcloak had his own phylactery? Lichdom doesn't take effect until you die the first time.

In theory he could be a Lich-in-waiting, but the Crimson Mantle of the Dark One makes him effectively immortal(as mentioned in SoD, he hasn't aged since putting it on) so he has little reason to.