OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

[Watcher]

Hermond would gone back on their word no matter what, regardless of what Hel did or didn't do.

You have to make some unsupported assumptions there

Lol

Hel assumed Hermod would side with her, and set up a contingency, just in case he didn’t. That’s a far cry from the idea that Hermod would betray her no matter what.

Anyway, we don’t have a wealth of screen time of Hel to pick from. From what we do, she’s shown to throw tantrums when things don’t go her way. She even lashes out at her consort and ally, Thrym. Not exactly playing the long game there.

Also, compare Odin. Odin predicted Hel’s scheme years in advance. He gave Durkon’s prophecy anyway so everything could end up where it is right now.
Odin is playing the long game. He’s a couple orders of magnitude above Hel when it comes to the long-term.

Actually, now that I think of it, Odin is very much Hel’s opposite in that regard. With his “bad days” being semi-common, he can’t rely on himself for the short-term. He has to set up huge chains of events on his good days to cover the long term while he’s out of commission.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh, you can still disagree. The participants don't matter, the point remains the same - "why would you attack Mecha Hitler if you didn't want to get shot?" It's not a matter of "I want X, so I will do Y," that's a preposterous argument to begin with.

Nah. You see: soldiers following orders deserve that treatment, oppressors deserve that treatment, etc.

People fighting against oppression do not.

For instance: if the death worm didn't want to get slashed, he shouldn't fight the heroes. It works because he's on the wrong side of history. But "if the heroes didn't want to take a Cone of Cold, they shouldn't fight the worm" doesn't because they're on the right side of history. The right side of history, the oppressed, the side that didn't start it, they get to do whatever they need.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Not really; most bets hinging on third parties carry the unstated assumption that the bettors won't try to influence the outcome. I'd say it was kind of a jerk move on Thor's part of the bet itself wasn't a significantly bigger jerk move.

Which is poor planning on hels part. She shouldn't have taken that bet on a whim. Hind sight is 20/20. And loki never said nobody WOULDN'T influence the bet. Hence the poor planning on hels end of this.

She's not good at long term planning, but she has made some good moves on the short term though, and hel as far as I know isn't a well renowned strategist, and considering she was making a bet with loki the trickster god, she should have known not to make any bets with a god known for tricking people. thats some really bad decision making in general. It'd be like making a bet with moebius from legacy of kain, when he is renowned for tricking people and making them do his bidding, unbeknownst to them at the *time.

Though, it'd be worse making a bet with moe, as he would know ahead of time how things play out, where as loki's bet has a 50-50 chance of working out for him this time. It's only a huge streak of luck that things turned out this way.

Hel did make some good moves, but overall, trusting a trickster god was really stupid, even if they were related. Gods don't always look out for family if I recall correctly, and these 2 are no exception.

Lol

Hel assumed Hermod would do what he said he would and side with her. That’s a far cry from the idea that Hermod would betray her no matter what.

Anyway, we don’t have a wealth of screen time of Hel to pick from. From what we do, she’s shown to throw tantrums when things don’t go her way. She even lashes out at her consort and ally, Thrym. Not exactly playing the long game there.

Also, compare Odin. Odin predicted Hel’s scheme years in advance. He gave Durkon’s prophecy anyway so everything could end up where it is right now.
Odin is playing the long game. He’s a couple orders of magnitude above Hel when it comes to the long-term.

Actually, now that I think of it, Odin is very much Hel’s opposite in that regard. With his “bad days” being semi-common, he can’t rely on himself for the short-term. He has to set up huge chains of events on his good days to cover the long term while he’s out of commission.

Good points over all my man.

[Rrmcklin]

Lol

Hel assumed Hermod would side with her, and set up a contingency, just in case he didn’t. That’s a far cry from the idea that Hermod would betray her no matter what.

Anyway, we don’t have a wealth of screen time of Hel to pick from. From what we do, she’s shown to throw tantrums when things don’t go her way. She even lashes out at her consort and ally, Thrym. Not exactly playing the long game there.

Also, compare Odin. Odin predicted Hel’s scheme years in advance. He gave Durkon’s prophecy anyway so everything could end up where it is right now.
Odin is playing the long game. He’s a couple orders of magnitude above Hel when it comes to the long-term.

Actually, now that I think of it, Odin is very much Hel’s opposite in that regard. With his “bad days” being semi-common, he can’t rely on himself for the short-term. He has to set up huge chains of events on his good days to cover the long term while he’s out of commission.

1) Okay? You were the one arguing she was short-sighted so pointing that out isn't helping your case. I don't see what point you thinking you're making. The point remains that if Hermond had kept their word the others wouldn't have mattered, you have nothing to say she didn't try to court the "no" demi-gods and just couldn't sway them.

2) Thrym is not her consort, that would be his "reward" if he succeeded, which he very explicitly did not do. Telling him she has no further use for him, when he has been rendered entirely useless, also proves nothing.

3) Odin literally has the ability to see in the future and know exactly (or close to) what has to happen to get the outcome he's looking for. Yes, I would in fact imagine he's better planner (when lucid) than most people. Like, that comparison is so ridiculously and obviously unfair, I'd almost call bad-faith on it.

Your arguments seem to rely on either ignoring actual context, or changing the context of things for some reason, and I really don't get it. So I think I'm done discussing this with you.

[hroþila]

Nah. You see: soldiers following orders deserve that treatment, oppressors deserve that treatment, etc.

People fighting against oppression do not.

Must be nice to live in such a naive word of black and white. Things can be pretty different for everyone else, though.

[Shining Wrath]

Noted: the "evil squirm" pun results in a miss with the rapier, while the "lukeworm" pun results in several inches of rapier in the worm's body.

Better puns = better rolls.

[Watcher]

Discarding your allies when they’re no longer useful is bad for the long term. Thrym won’t be useless forever.

And yes, I know it’s unfair to compare prophecy with planning. I was shining a light on how different they were.
The only other god we see scheming is Loki, who set up a massive long-term bet between Thor and Hel that Loki got a cut on the side.

Your arguments seem to rely on either ignoring actual context, or changing the context of things for some reason, and I really don't get it. So I think I'm done discussing this with you.

You got sorta hostile in a hurry. Someone said Hel was short-sighted. You wanted examples. I gave them.

I didn’t expect this to turn into an argument. It’s not my argument anyway.

[The_Weirdo]

Must be nice to live in such a naive word of black and white. Things can be pretty different for everyone else, though.

Notice where those gentlemen's souls still end up...

[zimmerwald1915]

The right side of history, the oppressed, the side that didn't start it, they get to do whatever they need.

The right side of history hitherto has been the preserve of rising ruling classes as against the old - that is to say, bearers of new forms of oppression and at best relative liberation. They are always and exclusively aggressors against the old order, being midwives of the new.

Your moralizing was always tiresome, but is at this point completely incoherent.

[hroþila]

Notice where those gentlemen's souls still end up...

You're assuming that was the destination of every soldier who died in that battle, which is a huge, unsupported assumption.
You're also assuming that being Evil in D&D terms, by itself, deserves death, which is rather odd in light of your forum history.
More importantly, you're moving the goalposts. Those Evil gentlemen, even if they're indeed Evil, are clearly being oppressed.

[Peelee]

And loki never said nobody WOULDN'T influence the bet.

"The rules don't say a dog can't play basketball!"

I don't disagree that she shouldn't have taken the bet on a whim, but you're stretching here.

[Ironsmith]

Nah. You see: soldiers following orders deserve that treatment, oppressors deserve that treatment, etc.

People fighting against oppression do not.

For instance: if the death worm didn't want to get slashed, he shouldn't fight the heroes. It works because he's on the wrong side of history. But "if the heroes didn't want to take a Cone of Cold, they shouldn't fight the worm" doesn't because they're on the right side of history. The right side of history, the oppressed, the side that didn't start it, they get to do whatever they need.

Oh, stuff it. Nobody gets anything just because they want it. If the heroes want to save the world, they'll have to go through a worm that can put a Cone of Cold on them in order to do it. If the worm wants the world destroyed, he'll have to kill a small legion of dwarves (plus six high-level adventurers) in order to see it done- or at least delay them awhile. Both of them are going to have to go through a lot of stuff they don't want in order to get what they do- if it were otherwise, we wouldn't have a story.

[Particle_Man]

What spells has Gontor actually cast? I am wondering if he is a cleric at all. Wu Jen has Horrid Wilting and an elemental theme to boot.

[WolvesbaneIII]

"The rules don't say a dog can't play basketball!"

I don't disagree that she shouldn't have taken the bet on a whim, but you're stretching here.

Well, that doesn't disprove that she made a bad bet based on poor long term planning. Especially when the god in question is a trickster god.

She shouldn't have made that bet...with loki.

And the air bud clause doesn't apply. The bet was made around thor and hel, with thor being aware of the bet, although he was drunk at the time, but he was present none the less. Of course he's going to do something about it.

This was a stupid bet made on a whim that had bad long term ramifications.

Again, hel made quite a few bad moves without the proper wisdom to see how things would work out.

The sphinx pox example was a good move, in theory, but its long term ramifications made no difference for the vote for example.

The bet with loki was a good idea in theory, but due to poor long term planning, she's in the bad shape she's in due to the bets long term execution. This godsmoot was only able to come about by chance and was not something she could have forseen, and her big dumb mouth made her other supposed vote go against her.

She did have some good moves, with the frost giant attacks, the death worm she summoned, and so on, but those are just good short term work arounds. Anything that doesn't help her position long term has gone quite poorly.

Hel seems to act like a mustache twirling villain with no other MO other than being evil for the sake of it, without thinking ahead or having any degree of empathy. (which makes sense, she's a god of evil and what not) but she's about as dumb as nale in a way. Had she just voted the way she did, and not boasted, she could have won by now. Much like nale who boasted about killing malak.

Thats an example of poor short term planning, but so far anything that is longer than say a few months has not worked out well for her, even less so the several millenia since she took on the bet.

I wonder why she is so bad at long game strategy. Maybe she ate some bad chess player souls in the last world. She just took lokis bait without considering any long term ramifications, and knew thor was aware of the whole set up in one way or another.

Well, lucky for her this whole thing came up recently, but I doubt it will work out for her in the long run because of the prophecy with odin. Though, maybe loki pulled a double bluff, and he made that bet so it would work out for hel.

That would be a decent trick by the trickster god after all.

[nolongeralurker]

I should be asleep but I'm logging in solely to say that I just realized 'warm' is pronounced 'worm' and 'worm' is pronounced 'wirm'

#deepthoughts

[Peelee]

She shouldn't have made that bet...with loki.

Totally agree on that.

[Rrmcklin]

To be fair, I think a little lee way might be expected because, you know, her father and all.

Also, to be fair, we don't actually know all that much about Loki's tricks and machinations here. People just sort of go "He's Loki, so of course he's involved with a lot of stuff" even when it wouldn't make sense or really add anything to the story.

[WolvesbaneIII]

To be fair, I think a little lee way might be expected because, you know, her father and all.

Also, to be fair, we don't actually know all that much about Loki's tricks and machinations here. People just sort of go "He's Loki, so of course he's involved with a lot of stuff" even when it wouldn't make sense or really add anything to the story.

maybe if the gods didn't quarrel with their own family, sure. But gods don't have the same family togetherness that you or I have.

Some families in real life would ruin their own for the poorest of reasons, and the gods are like that in many works of fiction.

In any case, when it comes to loki, he seems to play a good game of 3d chess. This whole thing seems like its a way to ruin hel over the many eons of starvation.

But!

Theres always the possibility this is a double bluff or something, meant to give hel some dominion over the dwarven souls but not as much as she thinks, and to teach her a lesson.

But thats just a hypothesis and nothing more. So far the story seems to point in the other direction.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hel's only miscalculation with the bet was thinking that she was helping Loki get one over on Thor. And she may not have been wrong in that, since without Thor cheating and tampering with the bet's conditions things would be going much more her way. Loki may have crossed himself up (again). Probably a fully functioning Odin would've declared the bet null due to Thor effectively juicing the race horse.

Her rant at the Godsmoot had no effect on the demigods, since they weren't there for that. Hermod flinched at what was at stake, which brings up the interesting question of how things would've gone if he'd voted first or second instead of sixth.

[jokem]

What spells has Gontor actually cast? I am wondering if he is a cleric at all. Wu Jen has Horrid Wilting and an elemental theme to boot.

I am wondering if Hel has the Water Domain, or some domain compatible with Horrid Wilting?

I also wonder if 'Front Door Guy' was actually a druid before this happened to him?

[Peelee]

I am wondering if Hel has the Water Domain, or some domain compatible with Horrid Wilting?

I also wonder if 'Front Door Guy' was actually a druid before this happened to him?

Druids can't wear metal armor.

[The_Weirdo]

Some families in real life would ruin their own for the poorest of reasons

True dat. :(

[jokem]

Druids can't wear metal armor.

True - but I suppose Ironwood or stone armor is stretching credibility...

[WolvesbaneIII]

Hel's only miscalculation with the bet was thinking that she was helping Loki get one over on Thor. And she may not have been wrong in that, since without Thor cheating and tampering with the bet's conditions things would be going much more her way. Loki may have crossed himself up (again). Probably a fully functioning Odin would've declared the bet null due to Thor effectively juicing the race horse.

Her rant at the Godsmoot had no effect on the demigods, since they weren't there for that. Hermod flinched at what was at stake, which brings up the interesting question of how things would've gone if he'd voted first or second instead of sixth.

Thor didn't cheat at all. He was mostly a hapless victim in all of this. The bet was between loki and hel, and hel didn't take into account that thor would act as a god would, and save his followers from a terrible fate with hel.

Thats typical god stuff, with hel and loki placing a bet some what screwing thor over.

So while hel made some poor long term planning, thor was no cheater in this. This is more like hel made a dumb bet with the trickster god.

I'd say the bet wouldn't have been so stupid if thor had made the bet, or some other god, but making a bet with loki would need to be looked at with all the fine print studied over by lawyers and with strategic planning.

This is in line with the old tale of a farmer who tricked a king out of a great harvest by simply multiplying the rice by 2 and adding 1 each day till he had a good haul.

It seemed good on paper, but the strategy wouldn't pan out in the long term like the king wanted.

This is very much the same thing. Hel got all the dishonorable souls, but didn't take into account that thor would teach his people to be the most honor bound society in the world (or something like that).

I wouldn't have made that bet if I were hel, not with loki, and not with anyone. I'm the kind of person who doesn't make rash decisions, but hel didn't even think about the bet in terms of "what if this happens? or this?" she simply said "LOL I get all the dishonorable dwarf souls" and of course thor wouldn't take this sitting down, as he wouldn't get any souls if they were all dishonorable, so he was forced to make them honorable.

So, in parting this long evening, I would insist that thor didn't cheat, so much as he acted out of self preservation and as a god normally does so that he could get more souls for himself, hel simply didn't think any farther than what was right in front of her.

[Wizard_Lizard]

maybe if the gods didn't quarrel with their own family, sure. But gods don't have the same family togetherness that you or I have.

Some families in real life would ruin their own for the poorest of reasons, and the gods are like that in many works of fiction.

In any case, when it comes to loki, he seems to play a good game of 3d chess. This whole thing seems like its a way to ruin hel over the many eons of starvation.

But!

Theres always the possibility this is a double bluff or something, meant to give hel some dominion over the dwarven souls but not as much as she thinks, and to teach her a lesson.

But thats just a hypothesis and nothing more. So far the story seems to point in the other direction.

It was toteach his daughtera valuable lesson; that long term planning os useful!

[Watcher]

Her rant at the Godsmoot had no effect on the demigods, since they weren't there for that.

Iounn: “All that stuff Hel said sounds, like, totes lame. Iounn, demigoddess of youth, votes No.”

They weren’t there, but they could at least hear what was going on from the lobby.

Also, Odin might not be an arbiter in this world. In the original myths, he’s a bit of a trickster god himself. He might have seen the bet and thought it was clever.

[hroþila]

Iounn

Gotta say, I'm still super bothered by that spelling mistake/transcription error, and I'm mystified that there's so many Google hits for it. It can even be found in actual books about the Norse and stuff

[Fyraltari]

Gotta say, I'm still super bothered by that spelling mistake/transcription error, and I'm mystified that there's so many Google hits for it. It can even be found in actual books about the Norse and stuff

It’s Idunn, right?

[hroþila]

It’s Idunn, right?

Yeah, although it depends on the criteria you use to adapt it. The original form is Iðunn, with the <ð> being the source of the problem. Another possible spelling would be Ithunn.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, although it depends on the criteria you use to adapt it. The original form is Iðunn, with the <ð> being the source of the problem. Another possible spelling would be Ithunn.

Yeah, well I’ll stick to sounds I can actually pronounce, you know. Besides I fell like people will give me funny look if I start saying ‘‘Othin’’.

As for ‘‘Ioun’’, that’s probably because people think of ‘‘young’’.