Upick 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Rogan]

Why Wombat and not Taffimai?

Wombat can be wolf or killer. Taff can only be killer.

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna didn't trick totadileplayz as far as I remember, he posted a bunch of conversation starters enciphered with the Vignere cipher to show that he knew all the roles and AV used a brute-force website to decipher the texts and through that the roles. He deleted them later because using codes is kinda against the forum rules.

Yeah, I didn't tell totadileplayz to do that. I just took advantage of it.

[Taffimai]

A survivor with a day-kill? That sounds suspiciously like AV's claim last game when they were actually the SK. And it's notable that Taffimai only did this after AV used up their SK-kill.

I volunteered to be targeted by AV's power, and I also suggested she use it on Wombat. I am not digging for the posts for that, I'll do that tomorrow (rl) if you really want me to.

Taffimai, why did you pick Fext to kill? Did you actually think they were the SK? Can you win with the SK (if you know?)

See my questions above. Specifically, you've been claiming Fext was an SK for a while, why wait until right at EOD?

I did not specifically pick Fext to kill, that power only works on the most recent person to vote for me, as I stated. I have never claimed Fext was the serial killer, my vote for him was purely because of his erratic behaviour while he was under scrutiny, and because he repeatedly lied. I do not know who the serial killer is, and now that I have claimed I will no longer share my thoughts on who belongs to which team, because I would like not to be night killed tyvm.

Which reminds me... I would like to hear the victory condition for the survivor claims.
Book already mentioned having more than the usual and I think he implied he needs to guess names.

Mine is very straightforward: "You win the game if you are alive when the game ends." I have not asked whether that could be alongside the serial killer, I guess it depends on the exact phrasing of their win condition, and I don't think they'll be forthcoming.

[Book Wombat]

Which reminds me... I would like to hear the victory condition for the survivor claims.
Book already mentioned having more than the usual and I think he implied he needs to guess names.

1. "You win the game if you survive until the end of the game.", basically the same as Taffimai.
2. I did? That was unintentional.

[Rogan]

The usual victory condition of "survive"? Or something fancy?

1. It's a bit oddish (cue 'What's That Pokémon!'} but basically the the usual.

I'll just leave this here.

[AvatarVecna]

The reason I do suicide plays, Rogan, is because it's so frustrating to be doing everything I can to help town win, and nobody believes me until they have narrator confirmation. Games are intensely unfun when nobody wants to lynch me or NK me for fear of losing a strong townie, but they refuse to trust me even a teeny tiny bit until they have narrator confirmation that I'm trustworthy. Everything is used as evidence that I probably can't be trusted. Getting mad and breaking the rules to deliberately throw the game just to prove you wrong? Nah that was all a ****in gambit, of course! AV can't have genuine emotions that calm down after walking away from things for a little while, it's all part of the game.

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Feel free to vote me... But the only way me and Rogan are right/honest is is AV is a wolf... Thats why I was raging earlier because AV rage quit and put their whole role description... Which... I really have to select better roles next time. I literally just have dead chat access.

There's an alternate explanation: you've been lead down the brimrose path by a wolf who knows full well that they can still manipulate the game through the necromancer. It's really that simple.

[Elenna]

I volunteered to be targeted by AV's power, and I also suggested she use it on Wombat. I am not digging for the posts for that, I'll do that tomorrow (rl) if you really want me to.



I did not specifically pick Fext to kill, that power only works on the most recent person to vote for me, as I stated. I have never claimed Fext was the serial killer, my vote for him was purely because of his erratic behaviour while he was under scrutiny, and because he repeatedly lied. I do not know who the serial killer is, and now that I have claimed I will no longer share my thoughts on who belongs to which team, because I would like not to be night killed tyvm.



Mine is very straightforward: "You win the game if you are alive when the game ends." I have not asked whether that could be alongside the serial killer, I guess it depends on the exact phrasing of their win condition, and I don't think they'll be forthcoming.

Right, yeah, I forgot your power only works on the last voter. IDK why I thought it was a general kill. That makes more sense although I'd still like to know why you waited (I seem to recall there was several hours between Fext voting for you and you using the kill).

Anyways it seems less likely that you're the SK now since it would be weird for the SK to have a kill that's limited to the person who voted for them.

Wombat can be wolf or killer. Taff can only be killer.

Oh, because of the colour coding. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Book Wombat]

I'll just leave this here.

Oh that, it's to do with my powers so I left it out. At the cost of seeming like fext I'm not going to say more.

[Elenna]

1. "You win the game if you survive until the end of the game.", basically the same as Taffimai.
2. I did? That was unintentional.

So what gives you the impression that you can win with the SK?

[AvatarVecna]

These lists are correct if Rogan is telling the truth.

Spoiler: AV is trustworthy

Show

BEYOND REPROACH
AvatarVecna
bladescape
Rogan
Metastachydium

CAN'T BE MAFIA, COULD BE SERIAL KILLER
Snowblaze
Batcathat
Taffimai (can't be town or mafia, survivor claim)
Moonfly7
Elenna

COULD BE MAFIA, COULD BE SERIAL KILLER
Supagoof
gac3
Book Wombat (survivor claim)

Spoiler: AV isnt trustworthy

Show

BEYOND REPROACH
bladescape
Rogan

CAN'T BE MAFIA, COULD BE SERIAL KILLER
Metastachydium
Snowblaze
Batcathat
Taffimai (can't be town or mafia, survivor claim)
Moonfly7
Elenna

COULD BE MAFIA, COULD BE SERIAL KILLER
AvatarVecna
Supagoof
gac3
Book Wombat (survivor claim)

@bladescape: You should target Book Wombat for death tonight to maximize info. If you trust that Rogan is telling the truth, there are three or four people who could be mafia at this point, with nobody else possibly being mafia, and there's two or three mafia remaining. That gives Book Wombat somewhere between a 50% and 100% chance of being mafia. Additionally, we have two people claiming survivor: Book Wombat is the claimant, and Taffimai is the counterclaimant. Taffimai has a kill under their belt, but they didn't specify a target when they used the power, so it probably does affect the person who was voting them, and "kill person voting me" feels more Survivor than Serial Killer, at least IMO. Regardless, there are two controversial groups (potential mafia members, and survivor claimants), and Book Wombat is in both. Killing Book Wombat gives us the most information.

EDIT: I'll also clarify that the 50% to 100% chance of being mafia" is true for any of the four of us. I know I'm not mafia, but you can't be sure of that. Just wanted to clarify that the percentages aren't specific to BW.

[gac3]

Yeah, it's true that I find it hard to imagine Cao coming up with that specific of a lie.

One thing that I can maybe imagine (this is pure speculation and I'm not saying that I think it's likely) is that someone in wolf chat said "in RAC they were town teams and not two mafia" or something similar that doesn't imply that the speaker played RAC, and Cao adjusted it slightly.

Incidentally, your quote says "we were town teams with extra victory conditions", or something like that, right? (Would you mind posting it again?) That sounds to me like the speaker was actually one of the Russians or Americans, which AV was not.

I don't think AV was faking being pissed off but it's possible that they were genuinely pissed off that Rogan had an OP power, yeah.


A survivor with a day-kill? That sounds suspiciously like AV's claim last game when they were actually the SK. And it's notable that Taffimai only did this after AV used up their SK-kill.

Not saying I 100% believe Wombat yet, but it is a little suspicious.

Taffimai, why did you pick Fext to kill? Did you actually think they were the SK? Can you win with the SK (if you know?)


Rogan already said he can't ask someone else to ask a question for him.
(Also, y'know, the proposed ultimate question is pretty clearly the best option.)


See my questions above. Specifically, you've been claiming Fext was an SK for a while, why wait until right at EOD?

(Also I don't think Rogan should waste his power just checking you, and I don't expect any other seers we might have would need a statement like that. But I guess it can't hurt.)

Right! I forgot until I just rechecked. But yeah. My list of 5 was everyone who played in that game. That's why I was more suspicious of you and Snow initially but like you said. Changing "they" to "we" is something easy that could be done by cape while still signalling the wolves.

"Also we weren’t groups of wolves in Red Atlantic Cruise, we were town with additional win conditions."

This is (I think) in relation to the game you were discussing. If you mention this it'll definitely draw the attention of the Mafia, I don't know if they'll suspect you for that (but why would you post what they're saying and that's it?)

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Since fexts vote doesn't count... Taff's power basically is 100% a survivor power right? It's a survival move to get one less vote.

[AvatarVecna]

Since fexts vote doesn't count... Taff's power basically is 100% a survivor power right? It's a survival move to get one less vote.

This is my thought as well. Like, I guess I could maybe see a Serial Killer having a very circumstantial kill power that only works on people who are voting them, but if they're having to kill somebody to save themselves from the lynch, they're probably already screwed. This is the kinda thing that gets used near EoD to get a single vote off of you before anybody has time to shift votes to you - that's precisely why Taff used it at three minutes 'til EoD.

FWIW this was kinda the intended balance point for Serial Killer in the previous Upick: I had a daykill that basically couldn't be blocked because nobody else had passive immunity to kill powers and banes were night-only, but to use it, I had to announce the use publicly and take credit for the kill. But this doesn't feel like an SK power because it'd be really hard to get it every day.

Finally, I don't think Taff is SK instead of Serial Killer because...well, they weren't in danger of getting lynched. They counterclaimed while killing somebody, and they had no reason to kill somebody except to show that their counterclaim had some color weight to it. If we believe them and kill BW tonight/tomorrow, and BW doesn't flip SK...Taff's kinda screwed?

[Rogan]

The reason I do suicide plays, Rogan, is because it's so frustrating to be doing everything I can to help town win, and nobody believes me until they have narrator confirmation. Games are intensely unfun when nobody wants to lynch me or NK me for fear of losing a strong townie, but they refuse to trust me even a teeny tiny bit until they have narrator confirmation that I'm trustworthy. Everything is used as evidence that I probably can't be trusted. Getting mad and breaking the rules to deliberately throw the game just to prove you wrong? Nah that was all a ****in gambit, of course! AV can't have genuine emotions that calm down after walking away from things for a little while, it's all part of the game.

I want to believe you. I really do. And I suppose this game will either ruin your credibility forever or give you a big boost.

I can totally see you getting frustrated about this. You spent a lot of time to do the multi ISO and I start to accuse you right away, without showing my hand at first. I probably would be frustrated and angry as well. From your point of view, I should have given my result much sooner, so you didn't have to waste your time. I made it hard enough to analyze myself by being the top poster, mixing content and jokes.

After last game, you announced you would expect to be called scum no matter what. Being proven right is frustrating.

I know you are willing to die to help your team and I could see you committing suicide to do so. I have said I would be willing to do so myself, but I never really followed through. PJ was over when I did, so it can't fully count.

You also know I can be a decent wolf, so reading me this way makes sense. You were neither the first nor the last to read me this way, yet I only attacked you in any significant way. And I did it poorly. I apologize. I should have taken the time to actually show why I was suspicious and I should have given my mech evidence along with it.

I encourage everyone who is currently suspicious about AV to go back and read what happened before I accused her.

---

I can't do another all-nighter, but I will be still available for a bit now and I will be active tomorrow, hours before EoN. (No exact time given, I don't know when I will be awake and have finished my usual chores)
I don't want to say much more about AV anymore. I might be winning to lose to prove a point, but I don't want to make this decision for my team.

[gac3]

Rogan, I have seen AV pull so many stunts but let's face it, this is a game and a game where the point is to lie at least some of the time. No matter how this turns out, AV's credibility as a whole probably won't be hurt any more than all their stunts in the past have.

[Book Wombat]

So what gives you the impression that you can win with the SK?

Nothing much other than Craziest Idea and that it makes sense for both of them to be able to win together, also in the chance the Serial Killer thought of me as a potential target I said that I could win with them.

Also, I mentioned I can change powers. Day 1 I had roleblock (used it on Xihirli to great effect, I did mention it was useless) and tonight I got a protective one (yes yes seems to be too convenient but it's the truth). Don't want to lose, so you probably know what I'm going to do.
Hopefully Rogan gets a result that clears me, otherwise I'm probably getting lynched.

Going to try and sleep now, will answer other questions later.

[AvatarVecna]

I want to believe you. I really do. And I suppose this game will either ruin your credibility forever or give you a big boost.

Can't do the latter. I've gotten made a few dozen times as town, but people are only gonna take into account the one time I did it as SK (which was because I was basically throwing for town and still being suspected). This will be one more townie rant that people ignore like all the others.

I can totally see you getting frustrated about this. You spent a lot of time to do the multi ISO and I start to accuse you right away, without showing my hand at first. I probably would be frustrated and angry as well. From your point of view, I should have given my result much sooner, so you didn't have to waste your time. I made it hard enough to analyze myself by being the top poster, mixing content and jokes.

After last game, you announced you would expect to be called scum no matter what. Being proven right is frustrating.

It's been a thing for awhile. It's part of why I don't get angry as frequently as I used to: I've kinda just bitterly accepted the fact that the only way I really get to play and help town is if I spend the first couple days burning through content before I get murdered so that people are forced to trust me and my theories. It's part of why low-activity frustrates me: it gives me nothing to work with. Of course, that acceptance isn't perfect and I still blow up now and then.

I don't suppose I can get a power name? Even a fake one, so that scum thinks I have the power tonight and they have to try and get us both killed.

[Elenna]

@BW I definitely had the impression that you'd said your role said you could win with SK, not that it was just a guess on your part. I'll look up the exact quote after dinner if nobody's done that yet.

(Also the SK would presumably know whether they can win with the Survivor regardless of what you said.)

Also yeah we're still waiting on a power name from Rogan aren't we.

[gac3]

@BW I definitely had the impression that you'd said your role said you could win with SK, not that it was just a guess on your part. I'll look up the exact quote after dinner if nobody's done that yet.

(Also the SK would presumably know whether they can win with the Survivor regardless of what you said.)

Also yeah we're still waiting on a power name from Rogan aren't we.

I can survive with the Serial Killer I think with how my win condition is phrased.

Here you go.

[Rogan]

Rogan, I have seen AV pull so many stunts but let's face it, this is a game and a game where the point is to lie at least some of the time. No matter how this turns out, AV's credibility as a whole probably won't be hurt any more than all their stunts in the past have.

Well, for me it will have a significant influence. But that's the way I am. For me, the focus is the game of social deduction (a skill I would like to improve). Well, and a mech puzzle (a part where I think I am good at).
I won't tell you what to do or how you should feel. But I want to be clear about my own position.

Can't do the latter. I've gotten made a few dozen times as town, but people are only gonna take into account the one time I did it as SK (which was because I was basically throwing for town and still being suspected). This will be one more townie rant that people ignore like all the others.



It's been a thing for awhile. It's part of why I don't get angry as frequently as I used to: I've kinda just bitterly accepted the fact that the only way I really get to play and help town is if I spend the first couple days burning through content before I get murdered so that people are forced to trust me and my theories. It's part of why low-activity frustrates me: it gives me nothing to work with. Of course, that acceptance isn't perfect and I still blow up now and then.

I don't suppose I can get a power name? Even a fake one, so that scum thinks I have the power tonight and they have to try and get us both killed.

I don't remember such a play from town games, but I am not a long time player. But I think Snow mentioned something like that as well (you being more likely to rant as town).

I feel sorry you are pushed into this position. I blame your success and partly your ambitions. But I get your position. When I join the game, I want to play and I want to win. And I don't like low posters. I don't like to target them, since they won't yield much info. But not targeting them proves that being quiet to avoid the lynch works.
We draw the line of "giving our best" at different places and I totally can see this as a problem. But I hope we can get along despite that.

About the power name:

Spoiler: I'm not a Seer

Show

I'm a Prophet. My power name is Prophecy (Investigative Priority).

- - - Updated - - -

While I was searching a specific quote, I stumbled about this:

Bookie continuing to be amusing as neutral, I can't vote him in this game at all I think.

On the first glance, it felt like establishing a reason not to vote for Book for the rest of the game. Given my... less then stellar success rate when it comes to those reads, it's probably nothing. But maybe taking a look at the rest of the read list in the post would help. I could see it as a wolves list, but voting Cap or keeping the door open to wolf read me later are understandable.

It doesn't matter if they have a Fast/Roleblock power or not, they still count as having been roleblocked.

List of Night 1 Actions (kind of):

• Xihirli roleblocked AvatarVecna with fire (??)
• AvatarVecna took no action with a Priority lower than 2 (??)
• bladescape killed Xihirli with a crossbow (!)
• UNKNOWN tried to kill AvatarVecna with a pistol (??)
• AvatarVecna protected by means unknown from UNKNOWN (??)
• AvatarVecna gained feedback by means unknown (??)
• Rogan used a lie-detecting power on SOMETHING (??)
• Captain Cap targeted NOBODY (??)
• Survivor power was useless
• Mafia kill failure (?)
• Serial Killer failure (?)

This is in line with the current claim. But could also be true for a failed power that requires guessing the identity of someone. Also, it contained something that could have given Cap some points. Sorry once more.

I knew something was off, and I was right on spot! Unless you're lying to me... Hmm.
My active power can be kept (it changes otherwise) by using a specific keyword, has to capitalized so I tried hiding it with a bunch of bogus.
Not saying which powers though.

Also, seems like bladescape was responsible for Xihirli's death,

Here, Book claims he needs to use the keyword to keep his power. Right now, if I understand him right, he claims he needs to use the keyword to use his power.

Many little lies and conflicting claims. What does the rest of town think?

- - - Updated - - -

It's nearly 3 AM now, so I will sleep now.
Good night.

[Elenna]

Thanks for finding that, gac!

I can survive with the Serial Killer I think with how my win condition is phrased.

So what gives you the impression that you can win with the SK?

Nothing much other than Craziest Idea and that it makes sense for both of them to be able to win together, also in the chance the Serial Killer thought of me as a potential target I said that I could win with them.

Yeah, these two seem contradictory to me. Like, it's not impossible that BW is telling the truth and phrased things weirdly, but I'm definitely more inclined to believe Taffimai now.

For reference here's BW's claimed victory condition:

1. "You win the game if you survive until the end of the game.", basically the same as Taffimai.
2. I did? That was unintentional.

[moonfly7]

Well that was-that day was certainly counter productive. That is 2 town dead within 5 minutes. Crap. Well, on the plus side, if Rogans list IS true we have a name crossed off.

I will say, we just lost a Blocker and a Killer and it raises an interesting question I've been wondering about: which of the powers is a worse loss for Town: the towny night kill, or the blocker? My guess is we could use either tonight.

Also, @Snowblaze, you mentioned wanting to talk about that thing tonight. If you still want too, fine by me.

[Elenna]

Just a note in case anyone else missed it: the night is 48 hours, not 24.

[gac3]

Just a note in case anyone else missed it: the night is 48 hours, not 24.

Funny. I was just coming to check that.

- - - Updated - - -

Well that was-that day was certainly counter productive. That is 2 town dead within 5 minutes. Crap. Well, on the plus side, if Rogans list IS true we have a name crossed off.

I will say, we just lost a Blocker and a Killer and it raises an interesting question I've been wondering about: which of the powers is a worse loss for Town: the towny night kill, or the blocker? My guess is we could use either tonight.

Also, @Snowblaze, you mentioned wanting to talk about that thing tonight. If you still want too, fine by me.

Two. We can cross off Taff. In the sense that if the list is true, we know Taff isn't a wolf. They might be serial killer but for the purposes of that list, they can be marked off.

- - - Updated - - -

Random thoughts about what the night might bring:

If the list is accurate: the wolves will likely shoot outside of it. Because shooting inside would narrow down our options. If the list is inaccurate, they will still likely shoot outside of it at the people who aren't wolves because then we might still continue lyching the list.

As for the serial killer... I'm not sure their best plan. If they are in the list, they will probably shoot outside the list again to not make themselves a more likely target. If they are outside the list however, smart move is to shoot... I don't know for sure. Part of me says shoot the list because to me wolves would be the ones I want to eliminate as a serial killer... But they also cause a distraction so perhaps it is better to shoot outside the list?

- - - Updated - - -

Public service announcement brought on behalf of Fext....

gac tell the thread to kill BW immediately

few other things

- Hopefully it should be obvious why claiming my ability to kill people would not have been helpful in dismissing fears I was the Serial Killer lmao

- It should be noted that Bladescape is infringing on my role by a lot - this is why I had him so readily as scum until his kill flavor being green was pointed out. I still don't really trust that color because two full vigs seems wrong. Very worth discussing.

- I'm counting my vote for Taff as correct for stats purposes and you can't stop me :P (also I absolutely woulda shot her at night so her killing me is fair enough I guess even if the suspicion was silly and intentionally killing outside of Rogan's mechanical PoE is bad for town to do)

- BW being scum makes sense, but finding a second in that group is kind of hard - might have to start questioning AV at some point, otherwise I don't think we can let supagoof ride on only their claim forever

- I'm reaching out from beyond the grave to specifically tell Bladescape and Snow that everything gac said earlier did indeed happen here, and damn that would be dedication to the bit were gac scum

Which I missed goofs claim apparently?

also throw in a casual reminder that Taff has spent the past several days knowing BookWombat is a liar and chose not to say anything, then killed a particularly strong town role

she should not be granted clemency just because she is not mafia

Oops... They said casual. Oh well.


I didn't see a point in specifically quoting but they did express a desire to keep checking in to see if they could help town win.

[Batcathat]

Nominating Book Wombat to hopefully clear up this SK/Survivor mess, with gac3 as a backup. He doesn't seem as suspicious as BW now does, but his story feels off (though it could be off because gac's tricking us, because Cao's tricking gac or just because even reality seems kinda off sometimes).

[AvatarVecna]

I'm inclined to think gac is telling the truth and is just frustrated that reality seems so out of whack. But at the same time, I trust Rogan even more, and the fact remains that gac is merely the least guilty-looking of the three possible wolves...when it's possible we have three wolves left. So I'm not ready to clear him.

[gac3]

I'm inclined to think gac is telling the truth and is just frustrated that reality seems so out of whack. But at the same time, I trust Rogan even more, and the fact remains that gac is merely the least guilty-looking of the three possible wolves...when it's possible we have three wolves left. So I'm not ready to clear him.

I agree with everything except three should be four. But in my case I'm not counting myself cleared for the discussion and I assume you were.

[AvatarVecna]

I agree with everything except three should be four. But in my case I'm not counting myself cleared for the discussion and I assume you were.

For everybody else, it should be four, since they don't know if they can trust me. But I know I'm not guilty, so there's only three people who could be mafia. You're the least sus looking of the three, but the fact remains there might be three scum left. I'm not clearing myself for discussion, people are welcome to debate whatever they like. But I'm not going to sit here pretending I think I might be guilty when I know I'm not.

[Metastachydium]

I think you made a couple of huge mistakes, but I mourn your loss nonetheless, Fext!
Likewise, sorry Cap! We should have believed you.

♣

How come I'm apparently the only one without a kill power when some of us got two?

♣

Neutrals are bad news, not to mention "neutrals". Book Wombat must die, and so should Taffimai.
I bid thee a safe and fruitful hunt, bladescape!

[Snowblaze]

Actually... I was just going to say that I'd like bladescape not to kill either Book Wombat or Taffimai. Because Reasons.

In other news, this game makes even less sense than yesterday. Which I didn't think was possible.

Let's see:

If AvatarVecna is a wolf, they faked a ragequit. Which I honestly think they wouldn't do. There are lines AV wouldn't cross as a wolf, and this is one of them.

If Snowblaze is a wolf, Unavenger has been lying to me for the entire game.

If Batcathat is a wolf, they cold-heartedly bussed Caoimhin for towncred and the lie detector POE is wrong.

If Supagoof is a wolf, town has no protective roles in a game with an awful lot of murder going around. And he lied about his alignment, which a wolf would never do. (Seriously, given the lie detector that isn't entirely a bad read.)

If Taffimai is a wolf, they somehow acquired neutral colours and a very neutral-looking kill power.

If gac3 is a wolf, being a necromancer is a very weird role. And that's before you get into the sheer craziness of setting up that elaborate a gambit just to get me killed.

If Book Wombat is a wolf, he fakeclaimed Survivor for ??? reasons.

If Moonfly is a wolf, they've done something that's extremely against their win condition. (Note: I'll talk about that something day three) and the lie detector POE is wrong.

If bladescape is a wolf, he acquired town colours and made a very pro-town kill.

If Elenna is a wolf, she cold-heartedly bussed Caoimhin for towncred and the lie detector POE is wrong.

If Meta is a wolf, they faked some extremely non-partner-y interactions with Caoimhin and the lie detector POE is wrong.

If Rogan is a wolf, he had the nerve to fakeclaim lie detector of all roles, and has changed his meta significantly from last game.



So...uh, which of the above are wolves?

[gac3]

Wait... Is the reasons Wolf!Book would claim survivor that hard to guess?