Upick 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Rogan]

For why I'm waiting: it's better if my role stays secret for as long as it can, for all of us. It's not superpowerful but I'm not jinxing it by spilling the beans earlier than necassary. And there hasn't been a good reason to out myself yet, since beyond a few off the cuff accusations and offhand threats no one's accused me really. If it gets bad, I'll clear myself.

And I can answer your second question too:
My role is the other illegal one. Noticed it halfway through the first day on accident. Then Unavanger fixed the issue.

Okay, thanks for the answer.
I was debating about the possibility of blades having the power to fake his kill color, which would be against the no lying about death reveal rule (the way I read it). I thought it could have been somewhat fixed by forcing him to have other people pick the target, giving the kill the color of the person picking the target.

I realize this is a stretch, but this theory was suggested before and snow recalled the point about faking the kill color in her post.

Unavenger, can you confirm that a kill getting a different color would be against the rules, no matter what?

I don't expect a definite answer at this point, since it would be significant info about blades alignment. I could suggest a way to test the theory: nobody gives targets except the claimed neutrals. If we get another green kill, the theory is impossible. If we get a kill off a different color, blades would be back in the pool of possible wolves. If we don't get a kill, we learn nothing about him.

I only suggest this because the number of possible wolves is both limited and many have points for townieness

[Snowblaze]

I... don't really see why "no-one targets anyone" needs to be part of the plan. If, at some point, we get a kill which is clearly the wolves' and isn't green, bladescape is confirmed town.

Also if bladescape isn't town this game is horrifically bastard and I will be very annoyed with Unavenger.

[Elenna]

Since we have a lie detector, I want to correct myself: if I had used that power while there were no votes on me, it would not have killed the most recent (since there wouldn't have been one), but the next person to vote for me. Nitpicky, but I don't want to fall due to an "Aha, you lied about your power, prepare to die!"




I don't actually subscribe to the notion that survivors should claim early, because there are always players like Meta who will kill you just for being neutral. I would ordinarily wait or not claim at all, so it took me a long time hemming and hawing. Don't forget, if Wombat is a wolf, I could have won alongside him (and I've now pissed off a faction that I depend on to survive the nights). However, after Captain Cap and probably Blade's kill tonight, Rogan's list would've been down to three and I would've been forced to show my hand anyway. I figured it would be a bad look to wait till the last moment. I really do like that it's now night and we can be checked by non-lethal means, so Fext presented a fortuitous opportunity. Add to that the fact that this is not an enjoyable position to be in: I now have to act neutral and can no longer participate in trying to solve the puzzle, which means the game has effectively ended for me. I hope that answers your question.

Taffimai keeps coming up with responses that sound reasonable and make sense from a neutral POV. Book Wombat, on the other hand, has all these small contradictions.

I know they might be protected, but I don't have any strong wolf candidates right now, so I'd rather hit someone who is definitely not town even if it means the kill might be wasted. Wasting the kill is better than hitting a townie.
But for a non survivor-claim target, Supagoof is a decent choice.

I'm nearly certain gac has deadchat access, if only because faking Fext's writing style would be a pain. Plus that bayesian thing sounds legit (and I do actually know what it means). A few possibilities:
1. gac is a wolf necromancer and none of the things he described happened. He's adjusting/redacting Fext, Xi, and Cap's posts to not mention this. That seems unlikely as it would be a lot of work to make the fake posts sound natural and have the right writing style.
2. gac is a wolf necromancer, he and Cao faked their discussion to make him look town. Not impossible, although it would be weird. But this whole game is weird.
3. gac is town but Cao lied to him about the RAC quote. Would make sense, although it's a weirdly specific lie to come up with.
4. gac is town and Cao was telling the truth with the RAC quote. This requires Rogan to be lying except in the weird world where AV is a wolf, Cao lied about the kill target but not the quote, and AV talked as if they were Russian or American i. RAC even though they weren't.

[AvatarVecna]

I wanna be clear that the suggestion I made that "green is actually the mafia kill color in this game" was made in blue text because there's a forum community in-joke where blue-text is sarcasm. Don't take anything said in blue text seriously. Yes, that would be a very bastard move by the narrator, especially since we were explicitly told there wouldn't be things screwing with death reveals.

[Elenna]

This game is full of ninjas and also it's looking increasingly certain that we'll need a second thread

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hey look another ninja

[Rogan]

<A table was flipped>

Either Taffimai's or AvatarVecna's day power is a bit suspicious, The former is cyan while the latter is normal. Hmm, could also be because the latter was quoted. Hmm.

Huh, so either you're lying or there are two Survivors.

AV didn't kill anybody. Not getting a kill color for not killing seems sensible. Otherwise, this power had a hidden innocent child mech.

It seems suspicious you throw shades at AV for this.

Nothing much other than Craziest Idea and that it makes sense for both of them to be able to win together, also in the chance the Serial Killer thought of me as a potential target I said that I could win with them.

Also, I mentioned I can change powers. Day 1 I had roleblock (used it on Xihirli to great effect, I did mention it was useless) and tonight I got a protective one (yes yes seems to be too convenient but it's the truth). Don't want to lose, so you probably know what I'm going to do.
Hopefully Rogan gets a result that clears me, otherwise I'm probably getting lynched.

Going to try and sleep now, will answer other questions later.

Here is the protection claim snow requested.

I... don't really see why "no-one targets anyone" needs to be part of the plan. If, at some point, we get a kill which is clearly the wolves' and isn't green, bladescape is confirmed town.

Also if bladescape isn't town this game is horrifically bastard and I will be very annoyed with Unavenger.

It's not no one targets anyone. It's the neutrals pick the targets for blades, while town only says if they disagree with the targets. This way there is no townie to steal the kill color from.

But I agree it's a very unlikely case.

[moonfly7]

Bookwombat

Because I legitimately think wombat had enough strange contradictions to be a decent kill. Although if we're wrong....how many town would we have killed by our own freaking hands?

[Snowblaze]

Right, thanks, I missed that. And sorry for misinterpreting your plan, it does make sense now.

...need to go reread stuff but I think I might have had a revelation.

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The OP doesn't specifically answer this so...

@Unavenger if Roleblocker A roleblocked Roleblocker B, would Roleblocker B's action still be processed?

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Because we know for a fact that Xihirli's action went through last night (AV was told they were set on fire), so she can't have been roleblocked.

So if the answer to my question is "no" then Book Wombat is lying about his target last night.

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Having Googled Natural Action Resolution, its Golden Rule is apparently:

Apply actions which modify other actions before the actions they modify.

Which would imply that the answer is in fact "no" and Book Wombat is in fact lying.

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Which in turn implies that my plan is useless because the Survivor claims have just been resolved, and bladescape should kill Book Wombat with fire... er, I mean a crossbow.

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Bookwombat

Because I legitimately think wombat had enough strange contradictions to be a decent kill. Although if we're wrong....how many town would we have killed by our own freaking hands?

No more, at least. Book Wombat is never town.

(Though I will feel horrible if we kill a Survivor.)

[Rogan]

1. Makes sense, though one reason is that I'm currently in holiday so I have more free time and I like making jokes like that.
The latter is correct, even though it was my second choice.
Being the Serial Killer's twin brother the Survivor is a new feeling. Thirteen really is an auspicious number.

2. The "telegram" is important for the recipient. Not going to say more than that.

The claim came after a bit of suspicion, so this might be the reason. But it feels to be a rather lame case? The above could also be a self-targeting joke, where a serial killer jokes about claiming killer. But that's a stretch as well. Also, wolf seems more likely than killer.

It was a joke, apologies, I am the (a?) Survivor.
I'm going to regret claiming aren't I?

If you faked the claim? Absolutely!

Night 1 End
<Snip>
Trickstar Summoning (Roleblock Priority): Once per NIGHT you may choose a living player. They catch on fire and are role blocked tonight (Fast Priority and other Roleblock Priority abilities cannot be blocked).

At least one specific role block couldn't stop other blocks.

[Elenna]

Oooh that is a good point from Snow. AV could technically be lying but I don't see why.

Bookwombat

Because I legitimately think wombat had enough strange contradictions to be a decent kill. Although if we're wrong....how many town would we have killed by our own freaking hands?

BW isn't town, anyways (barring really weird play). They're either wolf or neutral.

[Metastachydium]

At least one specific role block couldn't stop other blocks.

Same goes for the poor Captain's flip, so it's two out of two.

[AvatarVecna]

AV could technically be lying but I don't see why.

I swear this describes a solid 50% of the arguments that get made against me in any given game. I'm tempted to sig it.

[Elenna]

Oh, nevermind. I do think a roleblock should block another roleblock but it seems likely that that's not the case in this game given what Rogan found.

[Rogan]

Oooh that is a good point from Snow. AV could technically be lying but I don't see why.


BW isn't town, anyways (barring really weird play). They're either wolf or neutral.

It should be easy to check if AV was lying about the block. We have a necromancer. Xihirli, please tell us if you blocked AV

[Snowblaze]

You guys have to burst my bubble when I think I'm onto something, don't you?

Yeah, that's a lot less like mechanical proof now.

[AvatarVecna]

If it helps, here's the full text I received at the end of N1:

AvatarVecna, YOU CAUGHT ON FIRE. It's probably nothing...
AvatarVecna, SOMEONE TRIED TO SHOOT YOU WITH A PISTOL, BUT YOU DODGED!
AvatarVecna, YOU ARE NO LONGER ON FIRE. Huh.

I received no feedback from my bane attempt, and I'm also not sure if I should have received feedback from my bane attempt if it were to go through uninterrupted anyway. It's possible the third line could mean "the roleblocker who targeted you was themselves roleblocked, so their power didn't affect you after all", but I think it's more likely that the fire went out because Xihirli had died and could no longer use their kill power on me.

If that's the case, I would hazard a guess and say that there isn't anybody in the game capable of using the powers of the dead - if there were, Unavenger wouldn't have said the fire was gone, since it was still possible that the dead-power-copier could copy Xi's kill ability and use it on me. This is all kind of a load of guesswork though.

[gac3]

I believe that you have access to dead chat, gac. It's just that there are still worlds in which you're somehow a wolf necromancer. Pretty tinfoil worlds, sure, but more or less every world is tinfoil atp.

The power suggestions seem sensible.

On SK!Taffimai: she's already screwed before she reveals, being trapped in the lie detector POE is probably going to lead to her death pretty soon. If she claims and uses her power she's at least confirmed not-wolf and can maybe buy herself time, especially if she has some kind of immunity.

Oh I'm fine if people aren't sure I'm town. But I felt like I saw some comments about "if Gac3 is a necromancer."

[Snowblaze]

Scratch my above post, I suppose.

Though my neutral resolution plan is probably a bad one anyway. bladescape, if you want to shoot the neutral claimants go ahead.

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And by "above post" I mean the one where I outlined the theory. Stupid ninjas!

[AvatarVecna]

Actually it looks like Rogan has found the proof that even if BW tried to roleblock Xi, it wouldn't have prevented me from getting roleblocked anyway.

[Rogan]

Oh I'm fine if people aren't sure I'm town. But I felt like I saw some comments about "if Gac3 is a necromancer."

At first, a bit of doubt was reasonable. But we moved beyond this point a long time ago.

Please ask Xihirli about her night 1 action. It's an easy way to get confirmation for something I believe anyway, but we don't lose anything by trying. And you can get some points for being helpful.
I don't think a wolf necromancer is likely. Unless you have other powers as well, I suppose...
So, I can't clear you, but you took a big step away from being my top wolf read.

[gac3]

I believe that you have access to dead chat, gac. It's just that there are still worlds in which you're somehow a wolf necromancer. Pretty tinfoil worlds, sure, but more or less every world is tinfoil atp.

The power suggestions seem sensible.

On SK!Taffimai: she's already screwed before she reveals, being trapped in the lie detector POE is probably going to lead to her death pretty soon. If she claims and uses her power she's at least confirmed not-wolf and can maybe buy herself time, especially if she has some kind of immunity.

Taffimai keeps coming up with responses that sound reasonable and make sense from a neutral POV. Book Wombat, on the other hand, has all these small contradictions.

I know they might be protected, but I don't have any strong wolf candidates right now, so I'd rather hit someone who is definitely not town even if it means the kill might be wasted. Wasting the kill is better than hitting a townie.
But for a non survivor-claim target, Supagoof is a decent choice.

I'm nearly certain gac has deadchat access, if only because faking Fext's writing style would be a pain. Plus that bayesian thing sounds legit (and I do actually know what it means). A few possibilities:
1. gac is a wolf necromancer and none of the things he described happened. He's adjusting/redacting Fext, Xi, and Cap's posts to not mention this. That seems unlikely as it would be a lot of work to make the fake posts sound natural and have the right writing style.
2. gac is a wolf necromancer, he and Cao faked their discussion to make him look town. Not impossible, although it would be weird. But this whole game is weird.
3. gac is town but Cao lied to him about the RAC quote. Would make sense, although it's a weirdly specific lie to come up with.
4. gac is town and Cao was telling the truth with the RAC quote. This requires Rogan to be lying except in the weird world where AV is a wolf, Cao lied about the kill target but not the quote, and AV talked as if they were Russian or American i. RAC even though they weren't.

Ah this explains some messages I'm going to share in a minute

[Batcathat]

Oh, nevermind. I do think a roleblock should block another roleblock but it seems likely that that's not the case in this game given what Rogan found.

This reminds me of "woodchuck could chuck wood", etc.

Yes, this is about as much my brain is able to contribute at the end of the work week. Though now that the weekend's here, I might actually be able to get my head and other associated body parts back in the game, though if the Ultimate Question works as advertised (which it can't right? It seems too good to be true), it kinda sounds like I won't be needed (which is good, because trying to do an ISO at this point seems like it would require two weeks work at minimum ).

[AvatarVecna]

Ah this explains some messages I'm going to share in a minute

*breaks out some popcorn*

[Snowblaze]

*breaks out some popcorn*

*munches the popcorn I stole from BW earlier*

This game is making me crave popcorn IRL, lol.

[Rogan]

Ah this explains some messages I'm going to share in a minute

*breaks out some popcorn*

*munches the popcorn I stole from BW earlier*

*creates a drum roll*

[Batcathat]

At first, a bit of doubt was reasonable. But we moved beyond this point a long time ago.

Please ask Xihirli about her night 1 action. It's an easy way to get confirmation for something I believe anyway, but we don't lose anything by trying. And you can get some points for being helpful.
I don't think a wolf necromancer is likely. Unless you have other powers as well, I suppose...
So, I can't clear you, but you took a big step away from being my top wolf read.

This is a good point, I'm removing my blade-vote on gac (though I'm not sure who to replace him with, I might just vote BW alone).

[gac3]

It should be easy to check if AV was lying about the block. We have a necromancer. Xihirli, please tell us if you blocked AV

I thought I already quoted this. Actually I'm adding more this time. This was one of the first exchanges after Xi's death

Xi

I targeted AV with my void because I smelled an AV bus.

Me

Silly Xi. I told you AV wasn't bussing.

Xi:

What, because the mafioso told you she wasn't

Me

No. Because the mafioso wants to kill them

Cape:

Alright, so, with Xihirli's knowledge, it made sense to worry about an AV bus.

With Gac's knowledge and what I discussed with him overnight, it's not AV.

[Rogan]

I thought I already quoted this. Actually I'm adding more this time. This was one of the first exchanges after Xi's death
<Messages from the dead>

It's entirely possible you did. I remember many things, but definitely not everything. If you had been dead by now, I might have gone back to check, but this seemed easier than looking through the big wall of posts.

I think the quotes look good for everybody involved.

[gac3]

*breaks out some popcorn*

*munches the popcorn I stole from BW earlier*

This game is making me crave popcorn IRL, lol.

*creates a drum roll*

They aren't that exciting

Cap

gac3, I think you should point out that I wouldn't have been collaborative (like giving you the previous indication) if I had deduced from the chat you were a wolf. Unless you and Cao are playing a really bizarre long con, you're fine.

Fext

tell snow that if you decided to fake a whole conversation with cao in deadchat where you tried to get info out of him you deserve to win :P

on that note it's definitely still possible you faked all of that but like

damn bro if so

also tell snow that believing BookWombat for being the first to claim a nontown role was always silly reasoning

also although it's still possible you're scum, feel free to tell the thread that I have yet to see you redact or alter anything we've sent in any way at this point, and the exact instant you do I will stop talking here altogether to avoid giving you more info than is necessary

[AvatarVecna]

I don't really think this is gonna convince anybody, btw, but:

After last game, if I'd rolled wolf again, I probably would've just auto'd. It took a lot out of me to get that involved, and it kinda shows this game. I've done like...three ISOs, and two of those were a multi-ISO specifically because when I started the elenna ISO I noticed some weirdness very quickly. I can't honestly say that scum!me is incapable of putting in the serious effort necessary for a multi-ISO in a game this active (last game is proof positive I can do that), but I don't really have it in me right now to try very hard. That kinda sucks cuz I'm less helpful than normal, but it's also probably the strongest point in my defense: what little effort I've put in so far would be insufficient for wolf!me's standards, so I probably would've just never bothered trying, or posting at all.