OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

[citation needed]

True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?

[Metastachydium]

True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?

Thing is, we just don't know how much of that they gave, because

everything that happened is not necessarily seen.

(…) It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. (…) [W]e don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. (…) (Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

[Tvtyrant]

True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?

Given that we agree that killing innocents is wrong, and the gods created the world so that all of its members are mortal, invented disease, famine, and monsters and are responsible for the majority of deaths...

The gods in OotS and D&D in general are little better than the Machines from the Matrix. The best of them are good because they care about people, all of them are evil.

[Peelee]

True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?

Oh, I wholly agree there. Though I also agree with Metastachydium. I'm a complex person.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I dunno how much Falling has to do with direct revoking and how much it has to do with the fact that being doing an Evil act breaks your oath is literally hardwired into the class. There’s probably at least some of the former considering Miko, but...

[KorvinStarmast]

There was not. The MM, like the SRD's monster listings, goes directly from "howler" to "hydra".

And no "men" entry? Also, for NPCs, were they not classified as "any humanoid" or is this something that 5e did that 3.5 didn't? Hmm, taking a look through the SRD, WoTC did a lot of changing there to get to 5e.

[danielxcutter]

And no "men" entry? Also, for NPCs, were they not classified as "any humanoid" or is this something that 5e did that 3.5 didn't?

To be fair, 3.5 races... differ more between each one. And also because 3.5e in general has more variety in the first place.

[understatement]

Maybe the gods should toughen their paladin hiring standards?

The highest punishment they gave to a paladin is making them Fall, revoking their powers -- but they can still walk around, communicate with other people, adventure, etc. They're still alive and able to do these things, which Redcloak's family is never able to do so again. The Giant's "cop turns in their badge at the city hall" metaphor comes into mind.

[danielxcutter]

...Does the Atonement spell become relevant for this? I don’t think it’d work for Falling unless true, well, atonement is done, and even if it didn’t then it likely wouldn’t last... but it’s still less final.

[The_Weirdo]

Maybe the gods should toughen their paladin hiring standards?

The highest punishment they gave to a paladin is making them Fall, revoking their powers -- but they can still walk around, communicate with other people, adventure, etc. They're still alive and able to do these things, which Redcloak's family is never able to do so again. The Giant's "cop turns in their badge at the city hall" metaphor comes into mind.

That's an understatOkay, okay, sorry.

Also, true: the paladins, who are acting in the name of the gods, got to slaughter an entire village. Even if they lost their powers (which I doubt), the punishment for slaughtering families isn't getting fired from your job.

And I should know, I'm a freelance translator.

[Larsaan]

I'm not really sure what you guys expect the gods to do, other than revoking paladin/cleric powers from worshippers who transgress. It's pretty well established that gods almost never directly intervene, because there's too many gods with too many alignments and agendas for anything to get done that way (and it would probably create a new Snarl, but that's besides the point).

If the gods were as active as you guys want them to be, then Tiamat would have nuked V right after the Familicide (or even as early as p186), Thrym would have dropped a boulder on the Mechane the moment it flew over frost giant territory, Nergal would have zapped Nale when he turned on Malack, and so on, and so on, and so on.

Karma comes in the afterlife, not in the here and now.

[Peelee]

Maybe the gods should toughen their paladin hiring standards?

The highest punishment they gave to a paladin is making them Fall, revoking their powers -- but they can still walk around, communicate with other people, adventure, etc. They're still alive and able to do these things, which Redcloak's family is never able to do so again. The Giant's "cop turns in their badge at the city hall" metaphor comes into mind.

I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.

[bunsen_h]

If Redcloak acknowledged someone as his personal rival, would that person instantly level up as cleric ("ding! ding! ding!") to match him?

[Metastachydium]

I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.

As headcanons go, this is a really good one. We should, nonetheless bear in mind that Eugene (an arrogant, condescending, less than helpful jerk who neglected his family (at best – the ways in which he seems to have expressed his disapproval of Roy's life choices arguably borders on abuse) and duties) would have been allowed to enter Celestia, were it not for the Blood Oath.

[Jacky720]

If Redcloak acknowledged someone as his personal rival, would that person instantly level up as cleric ("ding! ding! ding!") to match him?

Only if that person was an NPC.

[understatement]

I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.

I dunno -- they might just end up to where Eugene was.

I thought there were only three planes of Good?

As for effects on the material plane...if they're allowed to keep their powers, maybe they should have used it for reparations or such.

[Larsaan]

I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.

I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.

[RatElemental]

...Does the Atonement spell become relevant for this? I don’t think it’d work for Falling unless true, well, atonement is done, and even if it didn’t then it likely wouldn’t last... but it’s still less final.

Restoring lost paladin (and cleric and druid etc.) powers is basically the entire point of the atonement spell. It also lets you change another creature's alignment, but only if they want to and that's kind of dumb when changing alignment should be something that follows naturally from wanting to in the first place. It doesn't work unless the subject is truly repentant, or if they were forced to commit the acts that caused them to fall via compulsion magic, though. It also works to restore someone's alignment to what it was before if it got changed by some kind of magic (the only way to do that is the helm of opposite alignment, iirc)

[Peelee]

As headcanons go, this is a really good one. We should, nonetheless bear in mind that Eugene (an arrogant, condescending, less than helpful jerk who neglected his family (at best – the ways in which he seems to have expressed his disapproval of Roy's life choices arguably borders on abuse) and duties) would have been allowed to enter Celestia, were it not for the Blood Oath.

Eh, we have yet to see Eugene get in, so I'm not so certain. Even then, though, he never intentionally killed people with wanton disregard over whether they deserved it.

I dunno -- they might just end up to where Eugene was.

I thought there were only three planes of Good?

As for effects on the material plane...if they're allowed to keep their powers, maybe they should have used it for reparations or such.

Eugene is in a holding pattern.

Also,there are 17 planes for 9 alignments. There's definitely some wiggle room regardless.

I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.

Would I not? If every person in HtPGHS or SOD was human, I can assure you I sound still be beating this exact same drum concerning the paladins.

[Metastachydium]

Eh, we have yet to see Eugene get in, so I'm not so certain.

Well,

Spoiler: SoD

Show

in the epilogue of SoD we see the final assessment the bureaucratic deva gives on his chances, and he'd let Eugene in were the Blood Oath cleared. Let's hope they'll reconsider.

Even then, though, he never intentionally killed people with wanton disregard over whether they deserved it.

Fair enough.

I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.

Not even trying to prevent their colleauges from slaughtering non-combatants (including children) is pretty much the same thing. (Also, for the umpteenth time, no Bearer ever had destroying the world as his/her primary mission.)

[RatElemental]

It should be noted that fallen and unfallen but overzealous paladins would be right at home in Arcadia, the border plane between the lawful good and lawful neutral afterlives. The residents got so overzealous about mercilessly upholding the law that a whole layer of the plane just fell right down into lawful neutral and was destroyed, once.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.

If they were human cultists, they wouldn't have been created by the gods to be murdered by humans and downtrodden on purpose. If they were human cultists, their families wouldn't have anything to fear from "adventurers". Heck, if they were human cultists, there'd actually have been a chance that they'd be arrested and tried, not slaughtered, along with their children, for crying out loud! And if the entire world hadn't been built in a way that specifically harms them, and grievously, they'd not need to twist the arm of the gods.

That's the point. Their situation has to change.

[understatement]

I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.

...

If a paladin stood by and watched it happen, had the power to stop it or dissuade it and didn't bother to try, had no guilt of assisting cutting down combatants trying to protect the non-combatants, and offered no reparation or even an apology for survivors that knew absolutely nothing about the Mantle, then yeah, it's evil full stop.

It might not be Evil on the cosmological scale, which means something's probably wrong about the way moralities are measured in the OOTSverse.

[The_Weirdo]

It might not be Evil on the cosmological scale, which means something's probably wrong about the way moralities are measured in the OOTSverse.

At the end of the day, the Sapphire Guard destroyed Azure City.

[Tvtyrant]

If they were human cultists, they wouldn't have been created by the gods to be murdered by humans and downtrodden on purpose. If they were human cultists, their families wouldn't have anything to fear from "adventurers". Heck, if they were human cultists, there'd actually have been a chance that they'd be arrested and tried, not slaughtered, along with their children, for crying out loud! And if the entire world hadn't been built in a way that specifically harms them, and grievously, they'd not need to twist the arm of the gods.

That's the point. Their situation has to change.

Except, as I noted above, everyone is made for that purpose. The world of the OotS is literally a farm for sentient cattle; they milk faith from them while alive then eat their souls when they die. The Goblins are worse off by a little, but every single individual should be rebelling.

[The_Weirdo]

Except, as I noted above, everyone is made for that purpose. The world of the OotS is literally a farm for sentient cattle; they milk faith from them while alive then eat their souls when they die. The Goblins are worse off by a little, but every single individual should be rebelling.

By that logic, it's wrong of the Paladins to prevent anyone from doing so. And they all should point the snarl at the gods.

[Tvtyrant]

By that logic, it's wrong of the Paladins to prevent anyone from doing so. And they all should point the snarl at the gods.

The former I don't know about, but the latter is true. Given Durkon's information from Thor I would certainly be on team "let's get racial representatives together and collectively threaten the Gods."

Even Thor was more apologetic about the death of planets then the fact that they continually reset a cycle of misery to feed off of it. There is no "hey sorry we deliberately invented death and suffering to make you more nutritious for us" it is more "Sorry we have to close up shop and try again so often."

[understatement]

At the end of the day, the Sapphire Guard destroyed Azure City.

I disagree there, but I'll say that I don't know why people blame Redcloak for the fall of Azure City but then insist it was the Bearer's fault that his village ended up massacred.

[The_Weirdo]

I disagree there, but I'll say that I don't know why people blame Redcloak for the fall of Azure City but then insist it was the Bearer's fault that his village ended up massacred.

Wow! You're good!

[Paleomancer]

If they were human cultists, they wouldn't have been created by the gods to be murdered by humans and downtrodden on purpose. If they were human cultists, their families wouldn't have anything to fear from "adventurers". Heck, if they were human cultists, there'd actually have been a chance that they'd be arrested and tried, not slaughtered, along with their children, for crying out loud! And if the entire world hadn't been built in a way that specifically harms them, and grievously, they'd not need to twist the arm of the gods.

That's the point. Their situation has to change.

I honestly don't know what RPGs you have played or participated in... By default, cultists in almost any medium serve the same purpose as so-called "monstrous races," that is they are the weak servants of some greater power that act as speed bumps for heroes to slaughter in droves. It is often the case that the cultists might have legitimate grievances against the established power, that they were indoctrinated as children, manipulated by another entity, or outright mind controlled. Oh, and if we treat a DM as a stand-in for a creator deity, then cultists (of any species) are, by definition, created specifically to be murdered by adventurers. This applies regardless of the species. RPGs as a general rule tend to fail on the "take prisoners, leave non-combatants be" front, and this has always been a problem in the genre.