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2017-01-22, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
So this is it, huh. Thread isn't halfway done and it's stalled out. Too hung up on one class to get anything productive done. Might as well give up on making a tier list at all.
"Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."
"Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."
"I see one of those I kill it!"
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2017-01-22, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Not only have they been mistiered, but, as I've pointed out, you are fundamentally part of the reason they've been mistiered. Where were you in what was supposed to be high level community discussion of the beguiler? You gave a vote on essentially no basis, and then utterly failed to defend your position (because you never really tried). You did marginally more for the dread necromancer, but you only ever responded on matters directly relating to their command of minions, never to my direct response to you that they could do a ton of other things, never to the many other posts on that topic. People, you included, who haven't actually done much talking about the classes, have had this outsized impact on the tier listing. I'm trying to change that, by, y'know, having those conversations.
As has been pointed out, unless the count was mistaken, the number of people that've currently been convinced out of folks who originally voted is enough that you don't have to call a revote. The original vote, when altered based on the voter's current opinions, seems to support shifting the tier.
- If I did call a re-vote every time someone was upset by the location of a class, I would be calling so many re-votes that we'd never actually reach the end of the list, let alone hear the case for the tens of variants being nominated.
That, I'd suspect, isn't going to happen too often. Hell, I started arguing hoping to change some minds on this, but I wasn't necessarily expecting to succeed. Most arguments fail to convince people on the opposing side, in my experience, but you try because of moments like this, where people are turned by the force of long-form discussion.
- The actual tier of the beguiler isn't going to change. If you wanted to vote T2, you should have voted T2 when you had the opportunity rather than lobbying for special favours. Allowing people to push me around just by being rude at me or questioning my motives is actually less conducive to creating a tier list which the playground tends to agree on.
You say that pushing you around or questioning your motives isn't conducive to changing your mind. Well, that goes both ways. Acting like we're a bunch of whining crybabies who are seeking this with no valid claim beyond our own feelings on the matter is not especially conducive to getting us to stop arguing for it. It's all very condescending to a position you haven't even really considered.
- I think that several classes are in the wrong tier, but I'm not complaining because this thread operates on the majority opinion, not the opinion of whoever shouts at me loudly enough.
- This is a relatively high-procedure thread, which is the only thing making it at all easy to follow. Breaking that procedure is just going to make it impossible to follow what's actually going on.
For those in the proverbial back: this thread's procedure is not changing. If you don't like it, that's certainly your prerogative, but I don't intend to respond to any more complaints on the issue.
Edit: But the current tier isn't even reflective of that desire. The actual result has been that if you take this kind of sample of the playground, then while those people will support tier three with limited discussion within a week, further discussion will lead that average forum group's consensus to be tier two. What we have now isn't even apparently accurate to the consensus being measured.
That's a ridiculous claim. Apart from direct responses to Jormengand, and posts that exist in that general chain of conversation, it looks like just about every post since the new classes started getting discussed were about those new classes. I'd certainly like more dread necromancer talk, but it hasn't really been happening. We've been mostly talking about experts, with some duskblade mixed in, and a bit of the other non-druid classes too. We're never going to talk about every class equally. Wouldn't be much point to that.Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 03:44 PM.
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2017-01-22, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
I think people are being too bullish on the Favored Soul.
The great power of the Cleric is its breadth of spell access. You don't need restoration very often, but when you do need it, it's vital. Similarly, animate dead does virtually nothing in combat, but makes you quite powerful if you have the opportunity to create some minions. This is not something the Favored Soul can do, because it's forced to lock into a few Cleric spells, meaning it has to choose between utility spells like augury or restoration, downtime spells like animate dead or planar ally, and combat spells like divine power or spiritual weapon.
I would like to see someone put together a Favored Soul list they believe is superior to the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler for general adventuring. I'm not convinced it can be done, and if it can't it seems strange to rank the Favored Soul higher.
The Favored Soul also suffers from not getting Turning and Domains, which are a big part of the power of the Cleric and low and mid levels when their spell list is at its weakest. Replacements like "Deity's Weapon Focus" and "Energy Resistance" do not fill me with confidence.
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2017-01-22, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Suggestion: Since the Beguiler & Dread Necromancer position is controversial at the 2-3 barrier, every spells known based caster should have an example selection made to compare against those 2 fixed list + advanced learning casters.
If a class can make their list out preform those 2, then they are better than the 2-3 barrier.
If a class cannot make their list out preform those 2, then they are worse than the 2-3 barrier.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2017-01-22 at 04:14 PM.
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2017-01-22, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
This is one of the problems I had when ranking dread necromancer. If I think a class is worse than one that's currently ranked tier three, should I give the tier that reflects that ranking, or the one that reflects where I think the class should go in an ideal system? I went with the latter, ultimately, but it's a weird situation, because following that path means advocating for a system whose order is wrong, which is a whole other type of wrongness to introduce. I would definitely like to see the list though. I think I could plausibly be convinced if the favored soul's "good spells known list" winds up pretty mediocre.
Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 04:18 PM.
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2017-01-22, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
I'll see about creating one of these. My hunch is that FS will end up not being as powerful, since the majority of the Cleric list is comprised of very powerful, but narrow, solutions to problems.
Do you all want a list tilted towards a casting-type FS, or a melee-type FS?
Edit: In the meantime, I do already have a WIP generic Cleric spell list whipped up, that the FS could probably use without too much trouble. Do note that that list is geared towards new players, not optimisers, and is skewed to include as many core spells as possible.Last edited by GilesTheCleric; 2017-01-22 at 05:05 PM.
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2017-01-22, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
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2017-01-22, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
I know there are some Initiate feats which can be used by Druids and other divine casters -- some of those can be used to benefit a Favored Soul. In particular, the Initiate of Obad-Hai (Dr.342, p.51) gives you spontaneous summon nature's ally at every spell level, and that in turn opens up some Druid-oriented feats. I'm sure there are others.
Mother Cyst can grant an extra spell known per level. They're funky, but they're not weak.
Level 1:
- Lesser Vigor (covers healing for a while)
- Ice Slick (BFC)
Level 2:
- cry
Level 3:
- Impede or Snowshoes (Snowshoes allows you or your allies to freely enter your Ice Slick; Impede is a single-target save-or-lose vs. ranged attacks)
Level 4:
- Divine Insight (5+level to any skill check; this is a utility spell which gives your party a whole new category of awesome)
Level 5:
- Wave of Grief + Ray of Hope (you are a GOD buffer and now you can both take and give bonuses)
or
- Cloud of Knives + Divine Favor (you are an Archer and now you have 3 ranged attacks per turn with bonuses)
Level 6:
- Shivering Touch or Haboob or Vile Lance or Girallon's Blessing or Dispel Magic (depending on your party, and the type of encounters you seem to be having at this level)
... so yeah, I see a lot of good stuff available, with synergy and utility that the Beguiler cannot achieve.
The roles that can be covered are:
- Skill enhancer (for any skilled party member)
- BFC
- Buffer
- Healer
- Direct Damage (melee or archery)
- Single-Target Lockdown
- Whatever you pick at 6th level may be another category of functionality
- Minion-spam via Initiate of Obad-Hai at level 6
I think that's more different roles than a Beguiler could cover, plus this character would have good synergy with a Beguiler.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
It looks to me like most Initiate feats are limited to specific classes, and therefore inaccessible to Favored Souls. It's possible that there are some exceptions, but I'm skeptical. Also, Arcane Disciple is quite likely to be as good or better as an option in the Beguiler's hands.
EDIT: The Dragon Magazine feats are open to all divine casters. But the Initiate of Obad-Hai only allows you to give up prepared spells for summon nature's ally, making it useless to spontaneous casters like the Favored Soul.
Level 1:
- Lesser Vigor (covers healing for a while)
- Ice Slick (BFC)
Level 3:
- Impede or Snowshoes (Snowshoes allows you or your allies to freely enter your Ice Slick; Impede is a single-target save-or-lose vs. ranged attacks)
Level 4:
- Divine Insight (5+level to any skill check; this is a utility spell which gives your party a whole new category of awesome)
- Wave of Grief + Ray of Hope (you are a GOD buffer and now you can both take and give bonuses)
- Cloud of Knives + Divine Favor (you are an Archer and now you have 3 ranged attacks per turn with bonuses)
- Shivering Touch or Haboob or Vile Lance or Girallon's Blessing or Dispel Magic (depending on your party, and the type of encounters you seem to be having at this level)
I'm not very persuaded by that list, and it's digging pretty deep against a Beguiler using only the spells he natively gets. If our Beguiler decides to pick up Knowstones, Arcane Disciple, Eternal Wands, Prestige Domains, or Runestaves, I think things flip completely.Last edited by Cosi; 2017-01-22 at 06:12 PM.
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2017-01-22, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Considering the fact that I named one explicitly you have zero room to be skeptical.
Are you really able to discuss this in good faith?
Sleep is garbage after 1st level. Color Spray is point-blank only, and loses value after level 3 or so.
Grease and Silent Image are both good in mid-to-low levels, and a larger-area Grease is good at all levels.
Snowshoes allows your BSF to fight inside your Ice Slick without balance checks.
It's like Freedom of Movement + Solid Fog.
Anyway, skipping the rest of the nit-picking...
At least one of those is explicitly illegal:
Originally Posted by MIC
I'm not convinced that you understand the rules of the game sufficiently to have this discussion.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
A dragon magazine one, to be fair. I don't think other initiate feats work that way. So, this particular point would only apply when analyzing with distant sources included, which greatly reduces the value it'd likely have on tiering relative to some spell adding things. And the one you picked doesn't really let you do this SNA thing, it seems.
Snowshoes allows your BSF to fight inside your Ice Slick without balance checks.Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 06:32 PM.
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2017-01-22, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Many don't, that's true.
The Dragon Magazine ones do, which is why I picked it.
Can you explain that? It sure looks like it does.
Whether or not you get the Initiate spells added to your spells known in addition to your class spell list is a different question, and I suspect you don't get them. But this is the Initiate feat power, not the bonus spells.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
I didn't remember the condition for initiate feats off the top of my head, it conflicted with the Favored Soul. When I went and checked you specific example, it turned out to be legal. But it ends up being moot anyway, because it doesn't work the way you want it to with summon nature's ally, because you have no prepared slots to sacrifice.
Sleep is garbage after 1st level. Color Spray is point-blank only, and loses value after level 3 or so.
Grease and Silent Image are both good in mid-to-low levels, and a larger-area Grease is good at all levels.
Snowshoes allows your BSF to fight inside your Ice Slick without balance checks.
At least one of those is explicitly illegal:
Prestige Domains are easier to gain for a Divine caster than an Arcane caster, so that's not a point against the Favored Soul.
I'm not convinced that you understand the rules of the game sufficiently to have this discussion.
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2017-01-22, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
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2017-01-22, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
And a pretty cool movement buff. The spells are each reasonable on their own. I think you covered the SNA thing well enough that I don't particularly need to, meanwhile.
Edit: Separately, @Nifft, if that's supposed to be the favored soul's full spells known on a by-level basis, I think you need more spells. A 4th level favored soul has seven spells known, for example.Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 06:52 PM.
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2017-01-22, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Ah, that's a good catch. Thanks.
Still, my main point remains: there are Initiate spells which can be used by a Favored Soul.
A Favored Soul can also use Mother Cyst to gain a bunch of spells.
Ah, no, I'm not listing out the full number of spells known at each level.
I'm listing spells which give specific functionality that IMHO matches or exceeds the capabilities of a Beguiler.
Favored Souls get more spells known than what I listed.
Am I required to spoon-feed you everything about a Favored Soul, or can you make an effort to do at least the minimum research yourself before trying to score a point like this going forward?
It's funny that this is what you choose to showcase your understanding.
Please, show us exactly how you intend to use UMD to utilize a Runestaff -- which is not a spell-trigger item, nor a spell-completion item.
If it turns out you're wrong, will you concede that Beguilers have worse spell-list expansion than Favored Souls?I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Do you think favored souls are better than sorcerers? That'd be interesting.
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2017-01-22, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Me? Heck no.
I think Favored Souls are comparable in tier to a Sorcerer, but are lower within that tier.
Sorcerers have a better list and way more support, and stuff like Runestaves actually work for a Sorcerer -- so in spite of their lower spells-known, a Sorcerer is going to have more and better spell options.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Domains aren't hard to get. Favored Soul 4/Church Inquisitor 1, take Substitute Domain. Boom. (Or, if you're going to be a stickler, Dracolyte explicitly gives you domain slots).
And just because you're not casting something like Animate Dead or Planar Ally every day, doesn't mean they're not worth taking.Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2017-01-22, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
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2017-01-22, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
I don't think an hours/level 10ft bonus to a single target's move speed is worth picking as one of your three to six first level spells. What's the use-case for that? Is giving your beat-stick a 10ft movement buff worth giving up whatever the next best Cleric spell? I'm not convinced that's the case.
Yeah, and Arcane Disciple is a feat that exists. I'm not sure why you think this is something where the Favored Soul comes out ahead.
A Favored Soul can also use Mother Cyst to gain a bunch of spells.
Ah, no, I'm not listing out the full number of spells known at each level.
Am I required to spoon-feed you everything about a Favored Soul, or can you make an effort to do at least the minimum research yourself before trying to score a point like this going forward?
Please, show us exactly how you intend to use UMD to utilize a Runestaff -- which is not a spell-trigger item, nor a spell-completion item.
Originally Posted by UMD, Use a ScrollOriginally Posted by UMD, Use a Wand
All a Favored Soul gets from Prestige Domains is the granted power. They have to learn the actual spells normally, which is not very impressive. Especially considering that many Domain Spells are actually on the Cleric list to begin with.
And just because you're not casting something like Animate Dead or Planar Ally every day, doesn't mean they're not worth taking.
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2017-01-22, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Go Dracolyte, then.
Originally Posted by DraconomiconThe Favored Soul has a limited selection of spells. Burning those on non-combat spells leaves it looking pretty empty when it comes time to do things in combat. You can go that direction, but at that point the Beguiler's combination of "minions" and "combat spells" seems like it pulls ahead.Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2017-01-22, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
EDIT: More detail on my assessment of Dracolyte Domains.
Okay. But then you're stuck with a fairly bad base domain. Domination is a bunch of Beguiler spells, and Glory is a laundry list of anti-undead stuff (plus gate, but if we're counting PrCs Beguiler wins at 18th). substitute domain remedies that, but you're still behind the Beguiler who can do the same thing with an (eternal) wand and a better base domain. Plus, you spent two feats to get in. And you need some Knowledge (religion) ranks, which is a skill the Favored Soul famously does not get. Also, I recall that we are not supposed to be ranking PrCs.
Compare to the Sorcerer, though. The Favored Soul gets 2-3 more spells of each spell level known, which come in when you first get access to the spell level. The Favored Soul is low Tier 2 to be sure, but the only way to relegate it to T3 is to claim that the Cleric list doesn't have enough game-breaking spells, which I don't think is true.Last edited by Cosi; 2017-01-22 at 08:09 PM.
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2017-01-22, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
This was already explained to you: it's so you can cast Bigger Grease -- aka Ice Slick -- and let your BSF fight inside your BFC without falling down.
It's a synergy spell, like Freedom of Movement + Wall of Thorns.
This is the 2nd time I've explained this to you.
Yeah, you're having difficulty with this whole conversation.
I listed Snowshoes at level 3, at which point a Favored Soul knows four first-level spells.
One third of four total first-level spells.
Dude. C'mon.
Another thing I guess I have to explain:
Mother Cyst gives you access to the spells which are on your list. The class list restrictions are in the spells themselves.
It's useful to Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics (and therefore Favored Souls), but not Druids or Beguilers.
Having a spell on your list isn't a class feature.
If it was possible to do what you want, there would be no need to have spell-trigger & spell-completion capability called out.
Sorry, the rules don't work like you want them to work. You can't do things which aren't listed -- the skill doesn't have a specific prohibition list, it has a specific capability list. Things which aren't listed, like adding a spell to your list, are simply unavailable.
That's true.
Turn Undead is a class feature.
"I have X spell on my list" is apparently not a class feature.
Incorrect, and you were already told one of the ways around this.
The example you were given was Dracolyte. It's not the only way, of course.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Wasn't the general consensus feeling like the Beguiler and Dread Necro were T2, though? Also, I don't see how you can say the Favored Soul is enough weaker than a Sorcerer to be T3.
Okay. But then you're stuck with a bad base domain. substitute domain remedies that, but you're still behind the Beguiler who can do the same thing with an (eternal) wand and a better base domain. Plus, you spent two feats to get in. And you need some Knowledge (religion) ranks, which is a skill the Favored Soul famously does not get. Also, I recall that we are not supposed to be ranking PrCs.Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2017-01-22, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Just be a Favored Soul of the Sovereign Host, then enter Dracolyte to get domain slots, and finish up with Sovereign Speaker to nab up to 9 more Domains.
If you focus your Domain spells on downtime-capability stuff, you get a nice mix of active-battle spells (your main slots) and downtime-utility capability.
Plus, of course, some spiffy Domain powers.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-01-22, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Or you could cast color spray to win the fight with one spell. I understand how it works, it's just not very impressive. Also, you could have people use ranged attacks.
One third of four total first-level spells.
Dude. C'mon.
Mother Cyst gives you access to the spells which are on your list. The class list restrictions are in the spells themselves.
Having a spell on your list isn't a class feature.
If it was possible to do what you want, there would be no need to have spell-trigger & spell-completion capability called out.
"I have X spell on my list" is apparently not a class feature.
Incorrect, and you were already told one of the ways around this.
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2017-01-22, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
Remember that Favored Souls do actually have quite a lot of spells known, more than Sorcerers, so they have a bit more flexibility in the spells they can pick.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2017-01-22, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes
I like Nifft's suggestion of sacrificing two caster levels as a class that is already a half a spell level behind, ensuring you only get 9th level spells at 20th level. Or that your cohort has (potentially) as much divine casting as you do.
Well, the ranking of those classes is Tier Three. If the Favored Soul is comparable to them, either it is Tier Three or they are Tier Two. Given that we cannot re-vote, if the Tier List is to be consistent, we must vote Tier Three for the Favored Soul.
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2017-01-22, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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